OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 03:41:06 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Sermon on the Mount; how bad it is  (Read 10144 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,469


WWW
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2010, 09:14:23 PM »

Why are you hating on me again, SolEx? You still in a bad mood?

Let's try some positive reinforcement and celebrate the little steps of people approaching God. Not everyone was born infallible like you and your co-religionist Pope. I thought I had been doing good by not mentioning any pedophile Priest scandals or Bishops embezzling funds and you still be hating on me.

We've gotten off track with this tangent.  Your co-religionist slammed fasting as "silly and dangerous" and your best response is to label me a Roman Catholic?   Huh
Logged
Dart
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 655


« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2010, 09:26:55 PM »

Why are you hating on me again, SolEx? You still in a bad mood?

Let's try some positive reinforcement and celebrate the little steps of people approaching God. Not everyone was born infallible like you and your co-religionist Pope. I thought I had been doing good by not mentioning any pedophile Priest scandals or Bishops embezzling funds and you still be hating on me.

We've gotten off track with this tangent.  Your co-religionist slammed fasting as "silly and dangerous" and your best response is to label me a Roman Catholic?   Huh

slammed? really?

I seriously doubt any christian would take the athiest posting which TryingtoConvert copied seriously. Rather than getting bent out of shape you could take this opportunity to be an example of love and understanding. Maybe make light of the situation and relieve tension with some humor. Am I actually to believe that you take the notion of strippers at a monastery to be derogatory? I would think most people would find the idea absurd enough to giggle or at least not respond with anger and hatred toward TryingtoConvert.

Don't be so serious. Your letting people push your buttons over nonsense.
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2010, 09:31:00 PM »


Logged


I'm going to need this.
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2010, 12:23:36 AM »

Sorry i should have put a source, I thought it was an interesting article.

The Orthodoxy Way is not to speculate. It's to experience. You don't know something by siting around and thinking about it. You know something by experiencing it.

Alot of Christians over the centuries lived and died by the Sermon on the mount. In fact, I wouldn't be allowed to vote if it wasn't for the influence of the sermon on the mount. My ancestors in slavery and Jim Crow would of died a long time ago through bitterness, hatred and anger. They survived because of the Sermon on the Mount!  The nation of India wouldn't be free from Colonialism if it wasn't for the Sermon on the Mount!

South Africa would of never of been able to move forward after apartheid if it wasn't for the Sermon on the Mount.

The Amish who lost their children some years ago from that shooting would of never of been able to forgive the one who killed their kids if it wasn't for the sermon on the mount.

The Sermon on the Mount breaks the chains, it stops the cycle of retaliation. The sermon on the mount helps mankind know reconciliation.


And so there are alot of things to be grateful and thankful for when it comes to the issue of the sermon on the mount!


The Sermon on the Mount is a blessing my friend! But with atheists you can't win! They will be critical if we were warlords like Islam, and they will be critical if we turned the other cheek. It's a catch 22. And it always will be with them.


« Last Edit: December 02, 2010, 12:26:07 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,725


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2010, 12:25:38 AM »

Post of the month nomination.  ^
Logged

PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,662


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2010, 12:49:57 AM »

Let's take a look on how bad the Sermon on the Mount really is.

Quote
16Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Fasting is silly and dangerous. It's a religious ritual that only exists because someone discovered that if you torture your body by depriving it of food (or sleep or other necessities) you'll eventually weaken the mind and it'll be susceptible to "religious experiences", which really means hallucinations and programming. It's a way of making people pliable, not to the will of a God but to the dictate of any authority figure.

Are the monastics who fast "silly and dangerous" or do they eat Prime Rib and Russian Caviar and chug down Dom Perignon after the busloads of visitors have dropped $100 bills into the offering tray?

< redacted by SolEX01>
I thought the 24 hour notice was to get the strippers home. Those monks certainly know how to party. I guess you don't really know what serving God is really like until you try it but then you get addicted and can't stop.

If you agree with your co-religionist that fasting is "silly and dangerous" then I don't know what to think other than you're trying to pull a fast one on the people of this forum.


Why are you hating on me again, SolEx? You still in a bad mood?

Let's try some positive reinforcement and celebrate the little steps of people approaching God. Not everyone was born infallible like you and your co-religionist Pope. I thought I had been doing good by not mentioning any pedophile Priest scandals or Bishops embezzling funds and you still be hating on me.
SolEX01 and Dart, you two need to knock off this exchange of personal barbs. You're both bordering on ad hominem, which will draw formal warnings if it continues, and you're both distracting from this thread.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,662


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2010, 12:54:57 AM »

Sorry i should have put a source, I thought it was an interesting article.
TryingtoConvert, I'm trying to support your attempts to reason through some of the obstacles that are keeping you from embracing Orthodox Christianity, but this act of copy-and-paste concerns me in my role as a moderator. Plagiarism is not tolerated on this forum and will draw harsher warnings than this if you continue to practice it. If you copy and paste a large block of text from another Web page, you MUST give credit to your source by posting a link to it. Failure to do so is plagiarism.
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2010, 01:02:16 AM »

First, your wording makes no sense - the Church does not sanctifies...and then...provided the marriage is blessed in the Orthodox Church.
The Church allows Christians to marry.  Therefore, if one partner is Orthodoxy, they are allowed to marry another Christian.  However, not a Muslim, Budhist, Hindu, etc.  Faith should be at the core of your life.  Therefore, if do not share core beliefs, how do you expect that marriage to last?  It's not that Orthodoxy does not accept people of other faiths...it's that Orthodoxy views marriage as a Sacrament.
The wording that you point out makes no sense comes straight from the page you referred me to. It is not my wording, that's why I have put quotes around it! I could have highlighted the grammar issues as well but I try to work out what the point is that the author is getting to rather than worrying about rules of grammar.
It's nice that the Church allows..., what would probably me more important is what God is happy with, rather than what the church allows. I also don't see how "what the Church allows" has anything to do with being a good and moral person with a goal towards love.

I certainly don't agree that Faith should be the core to your life. I would certainly be more for LOVE being core to my life, but really I try not to say should or shouldn't as it implies I know better than others with regards to what they should or shouldn't do with their lives, which is untrue as I have not lived in their shoes, I try to reserve judgment on such matters.

A couple who are close friends of mine have different beliefs, one is Christian and one is Bhudist. They have four lovely daughters and have been happily married for over 15 years now. I am grateful that the Orthodoxy don't come knocking on their door telling them that their marriage is destined to fail. It seems Orthodoxy doesn't understand how powerful love is and that it can conquer many obstacles, even the obstacles that organised religion thrusts on to people. BTW - it was good of you to highlight that organised religion can be an obstacle to love between two people. Athiesm and Agnosticism are tolerant and would always put love ahead of the rules and obstacles made up by organised religion.

Quote
...the Church does not tell anyone they should divorce.  If they are still in love, even if one or the other has committed any of the things you mentioned...by all means, stay together.

However, if one of the two feels their life is in danger, or that their spouse has broken their oath...then, while not recommended, they may still divorce.  There is such a thing in Orthodoxy as Economia.
You misread my post. I was suggesting the Church is telling people not to divorce. This is the problem I have. There are many circumstances where I have seen people being miserable in unhappy marriages, they have divorced and remarried and have gone on to live happy lives with a loving partner. I am unsure why the Church would rather people continue with an unhappy marriage. Also it concerns me that the Church tries to put much pressure, guilt, eternal damnation pressure on these people to stop them moving on into a more loving relationship.
BTW i wasn't mentioning those things. Please pay attention to the quotes. these bits come directly from the page that you wanted me to read.
 

Quote
Key words..."as Christ loves His Church".  Christ would never do any harm to the Church.  Therefore, the woman obeys her husband only to the point he does no harm.  If for some reason he asks or does things against the Faith, she does NOT need to obey.
There is certainly some spin going on here. The fact of the matter is that Atheists and Agnostics most likely agree with equal rights. Men and Women are equal. No-one is the boss and no-one must obey. If this relationship does occur then it is not because of the random gender of the participants. Your Church and possibly your God would be advised to get with the times and learn about the merits of equal rights.

Quote
Well, let's see..."fornicating" with a different partner each day, with no emotional bonds....yes, I can see how that might be good for a person...NOT!  Are you for real?
What's the big deal with sex. It is an enjoyable activity. Of course it would be good if people were fully informed of the dangers e.g. STDs, Pregnancy etc and informed of precautions that can be taken to minimise risk. But really, I don't know what the issue is with informed adults partaking of consentual sex, regardless of how often or with whom they partake it with.

Quote
Orthodoxy is most tolerant of things that benefit the soul.  The things you mentioned, don't.  You should feel guilt if you have done something immoral....otherwise you are a psychopath.
What if I was feeling particularly randy and masturbated, would that be seen as immoral? If I didn't feel guilty about it then would you label me as a psychopath? Sorry if this seems a stupid question but I am not sure how extreme Orthodoxy is. Does the Church promote love and tolerance or guilt and self restraint?

Quote
The Church is always there to help everyone.  The doors are never closed to any believer.  In fact, they can get all manner of guidance and assistance from the clergy for any issues they might be battling with.
OK, so if a young person came to the church and said that they were going to have sex and wanted to know if they did it standing up whether that would avoid an unwanted pregnancy, how would the church respond? Would they simply say to abstain or would they inform the person about Condoms, Diaphrams, the Pill etc?

Quote
The reason for considering "previous" children is not to leave them motherless, if she dies during the current pregnancy. 
Additionally, she not made to feel "guilty"...but, the Church helps her to get over her loss...not repress the loss of the unborn child, but, work through it.
OK, so the church values her life if she is needed to be a mother to her current children otherwise the Church doesn't value her life. Nice!
Penance is to confess to sin or to undergo a punishment in token of penance for sin. This sounds like guilt to me. Don't you think the woman would be feeling terrible enough about having to make such an awful decision. She certainly does not need salt rubbed into her wounds. It does not seem to me that your Church shows compassion and love in this instance.

Quote
The love is there....but, you seem not to see it.  I think you need to do some self examination before you throw accusations on the Orthodox Church.

All your issues are simply with you, not with the Church.  You see them, because you want to see them.  You make issues where none exist.

Praying the negativity you have leaves you, and that you find peace and love.

Take a deep breath....let it out.

Here's a cyber hug!  Wink 
Please don't waste your prayer on me. Nice gesture but a waste all the same. Pray for world peace, equal rights, end to world hunger, happiness and love instead. Maybe one more prayer request will be all it takes for God to decide to grant these prayers, I would hate to think you wasted that important prayer on me. If there was a God who fulfilled prayer, I would never be selfish enough to pray for myself when there are much bigger issues in the world to solve. Again, please direct me to the form I need to fill out in order to nominate myself for a sainthood.

It is interesting to hear from you that you think that the problem is me and that I need to be aligned with your church. From your responses it seems that you are totally aligned with them, which is an amazingly good fit, I am truly happy for you. I hope that your church allows its other followers who may have differences to question the church and diverge on matters that are important to the individual followers.
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2010, 01:02:48 AM »

Sorry i should have put a source, I thought it was an interesting article.
TryingtoConvert, I'm trying to support your attempts to reason through some of the obstacles that are keeping you from embracing Orthodox Christianity, but this act of copy-and-paste concerns me in my role as a moderator. Plagiarism is not tolerated on this forum and will draw harsher warnings than this if you continue to practice it. If you copy and paste a large block of text from another Web page, you MUST give credit to your source by posting a link to it. Failure to do so is plagiarism.
Sorry Peter I won't let it happen again
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2010, 01:12:05 AM »

Please don't waste your prayer on me. Nice gesture but a waste all the same. Pray for world peace, equal rights, end to world hunger, happiness and love instead. Maybe one more prayer request will be all it takes for God to decide to grant these prayers, I would hate to think you wasted that important prayer on me. If there was a God who fulfilled prayer, I would never be selfish enough to pray for myself when there are much bigger issues in the world to solve. Again, please direct me to the form I need to fill out in order to nominate myself for a sainthood.

You're anthropomorphizing God. This statement assumes that God can be overloaded with requests. Not to mention that God is ignoring the world. The world is constantly being saved and subsequently trashed by the will of man.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,265

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2010, 01:23:22 PM »

A fine point, Azurestone.  This is a common theme I've noticed when dealing with Atheists and reading their popular works, particularly Richard Dawkins.  The extent to which they anthropomorphize is astounding!
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2010, 05:21:51 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Please don't waste your prayer on me. Nice gesture but a waste all the same. Pray for world peace, equal rights, end to world hunger, happiness and love instead. Maybe one more prayer request will be all it takes for God to decide to grant these prayers, I would hate to think you wasted that important prayer on me. If there was a God who fulfilled prayer, I would never be selfish enough to pray for myself when there are much bigger issues in the world to solve. Again, please direct me to the form I need to fill out in order to nominate myself for a sainthood.

It is interesting to hear from you that you think that the problem is me and that I need to be aligned with your church. From your responses it seems that you are totally aligned with them, which is an amazingly good fit, I am truly happy for you. I hope that your church allows its other followers who may have differences to question the church and diverge on matters that are important to the individual followers.

We appreciate you finally showing a sense of humility, but we can all see plain and clearly that you are just spinning your wheels, and we have all been there, and we are all always going through.  God is perfect, but not us.  We are all flawed, fractured and hurt.  We turn to God to continually heal our wounds.  We don't doubt Him just because our wounds hurt, just like we don't doubt the love of our mothers when we were children just because it stung when we scrapped our knees.  We Christians feel all the pain, and we love you the more so for it, because we truly EMPATHIZE with you.

By the way, you don't need to be aligned with our Church at all, but it would be best if you aligned yourself with the intuitive Spirit of God to heal your wounds of life and scrapped knees of living, just as we all do, but we ourselves find this healing in the Church.  Just as you go to the hospital, and take the treatment prescribed by the doctor for a physical healing, and if you skip your medication or your therapeutic treatment your disease or injury or ailment will not fully heal, so to if we did not follow our Church, our spiritual wounds would only continue to fester, burn and scar deeply.  We can only testify to you and others out of LOVE, what good things God has done for us, when we are surrounded by a confusing world of pain, but only JESUS CHRIST is the healing of the pain, and a clear Light through the darkness of confusion, apprehension and fear.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Nero
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 115



« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2010, 12:36:16 AM »

Quote
Well, let's see..."fornicating" with a different partner each day, with no emotional bonds....yes, I can see how that might be good for a person...NOT!  Are you for real?
What's the big deal with sex. It is an enjoyable activity... But really, I don't know what the issue is with informed adults partaking of consentual sex, regardless of how often or with whom they partake it with.
Not everything that is enjoyable is beneficial. On the contrary, many things that are pleasurable can be very detrimental - we see that with drug addictions. Someone who is addicted to heroine might have an absolutely unequalled pleasure when they're on the drug. That doesn't make it right by any means. In fact, if they keep with the drug, it will destroy the life of the abuser.

The same thing is true of sex but in a different way. The more that we lust over someone or engage in sexual acts sheerly for pleasure, the more we cheapen the gift that sex can [and is supposed to] be. Some people only have relations with their spouse - for them, the meaning of that self-gift to one another is 1000x better than cheap pleasure from hooking up with strangers. It also completely degrades the humanity of a person when we reduce them to their parts.

Jesus didn't give us the Sermon on the Mount because he wanted to make our lives worse. On the contrary, he gave us the Sermon to make our lives better - to set in order the things that we could easily do wrong. Sex is certainly one of those things. I don't think anyone will find sustaining pleasure or dignity in promiscuous sex. A life-long relationship with one's spouse, with a healthy physical relation, is much more sustainable and refreshing.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 12:37:30 AM by Nero » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2010, 01:10:26 AM »

I'm restricting myself to more foolish platitudes.

...the Church does not tell anyone they should divorce.  If they are still in love, even if one or the other has committed any of the things you mentioned...by all means, stay together.

However, if one of the two feels their life is in danger, or that their spouse has broken their oath...then, while not recommended, they may still divorce.  There is such a thing in Orthodoxy as Economia.
You misread my post. I was suggesting the Church is telling people not to divorce. This is the problem I have. There are many circumstances where I have seen people being miserable in unhappy marriages, they have divorced and remarried and have gone on to live happy lives with a loving partner. I am unsure why the Church would rather people continue with an unhappy marriage. Also it concerns me that the Church tries to put much pressure, guilt, eternal damnation pressure on these people to stop them moving on into a more loving relationship.

And then move on to the more loving relationship, and then the more loving relationship after that... The over 50% failure rate is acutally inflated by repeat offenders, the ones who make the divorce rate for second marriages twice that of first marriages.

I know you feel know need for facts, but for our readers:
The case for marriage: why married people are happier, healthier, and better off financially" By Linda J. Waite, Maggie Gallagher
http://books.google.com/books?id=tUJ55tuDMXEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=maggie+gallagher+the+case+for+marriage&source=bl&ots=8iinpnDaI3&sig=PqpcJK4nE2kMT1IeHTQHD3Py6rc&hl=en&ei=r3b4TMLEFsbcngehkPGbAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
The End of Marriage in Scandinavia.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp
Orthodoxy is most tolerant of things that benefit the soul.  The things you mentioned, don't.  You should feel guilt if you have done something immoral....otherwise you are a psychopath.
What if I was feeling particularly randy and masturbated, would that be seen as immoral? If I didn't feel guilty about it then would you label me as a psychopath? Sorry if this seems a stupid question but I am not sure how extreme Orthodoxy is. Does the Church promote love and tolerance or guilt and self restraint?
How extreme are you?

Self restraint rarely leads to anything to feel guilty about.  Tolerating the intolerable in the name of misguided love often does.

The Church is always there to help everyone.  The doors are never closed to any believer.  In fact, they can get all manner of guidance and assistance from the clergy for any issues they might be battling with.
OK, so if a young person came to the church and said that they were going to have sex and wanted to know if they did it standing up whether that would avoid an unwanted pregnancy, how would the church respond? Would they simply say to abstain or would they inform the person about Condoms, Diaphrams, the Pill etc?
The Church is not there to rubber stamp what you want to do and give you a free pass.  If you are married, and want to do it standing up, more power to you.  If you don't know if that is contraceptive, I'd ask your doctor, not your priest. If you are not married, do it standing up is not your problem.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,469


WWW
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2010, 01:58:29 AM »

Let's take a look on how bad the Sermon on the Mount really is.

.....

Quote
24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
This is a simplistic misrepresentation. It's almost true, but isn't relevant to life - because no one truly serves a single "master". Our lives are a complex dance of answering to various "masters" and we can define governing principles that allow us to serve all of them, to some degree.

It might qualify as good advice, in the limited sense of "don't let money run your life", but it might be better to go the "all things in moderation" route and say "don't let any one thing run your life"...including your religious beliefs.

So when I examine the Orthodox Study Bible, the commentators analyze Matthew 6:24 as follows (footnotes cited verbatim from page 1279 of the Orthodox Study Bible):

Quote
Jesus calls mammon ("riches") a master not because wealth is evil by nature, but because of the control it has over people.

Each of us needs some "mammon" (call it money, wealth, prosperity, etc.) to survive in this world, to eat, to have shelter, to raise a family, to support a local Church (or Churches), to pay for education and career advancement (e.g. to earn more "mammon"), to pay for emergency surgery, to pay for a proper funeral, etc.  There are those who have more "mammon" than others.  Therefore, why criticize the Sermon of the Mount?   Huh

When Orthodox Christians worship in the Church, who does the edifice belong to: God or the descendants of those who built the Church with their "mammon?"

The answer lies in Matthew 6:32-33, from the Orthodox Study Bible:

Quote
For all these things the Gentiles seek, For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.  But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you.  Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things.  Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

We are called to serve God and not preserve the "mammon" of ancestors buried 6 feet deep.  There are parables about burying talents ... what happened to the person who buried his talent?  Matthew 25:29-30

Quote
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundence; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.  And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness.  There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I apologize for any offensive I have caused to the OP or anyone else on this thread.   angel
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2010, 04:00:59 AM »

Please don't waste your prayer on me. Nice gesture but a waste all the same. Pray for world peace, equal rights, end to world hunger, happiness and love instead. Maybe one more prayer request will be all it takes for God to decide to grant these prayers, I would hate to think you wasted that important prayer on me. If there was a God who fulfilled prayer, I would never be selfish enough to pray for myself when there are much bigger issues in the world to solve. Again, please direct me to the form I need to fill out in order to nominate myself for a sainthood.

You're anthropomorphizing God. This statement assumes that God can be overloaded with requests. Not to mention that God is ignoring the world. The world is constantly being saved and subsequently trashed by the will of man.
Well, actually I was referring to your prayer more so than your god, sorry if my statement was not clear enough. I doubt you have enough time in your day for work, play, posting on Atheist websites, reading through every Christian literature known to humankind as well as praying for the things that you would like your god to do. I was suggesting that you pray for better things than for me. With so many things out of kilter in the world, you could easily find an endless supply of things to pray for before I became top of your pray priority list. Your God hasn't sorted out world peace for example. There are wars that have been going on for decades, your god has had plenty of time to solve these. It is not like as you suggest being saved and subsequently trashed. If your God can't be overloaded and can do anything and already knows the future then I don't know what the problem is? BTW do prayers influence your god's behavior? Would your god not know what to do if the Christians stopped praying?
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2010, 04:02:17 AM »

God is perfect
That's nice, I think my new baby daughter is perfect too.

Quote
it would be best if you aligned yourself with the intuitive Spirit of God
No thanks, I may not be perfect, but I am quite happy with the way I am. I refuse to align to a sexist viewpoint, to intolerance and to bestow guilt onto others, this seems wrong to me and my moralities I could never agree with the stance of your church or your scriptures.
Just because you think your god is perfect it does not give you the right to judge others, to suggest that others should have guilt, or are psychopaths if they do not have the guilt you suggest they should have.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 04:02:45 AM by TryingtoConvert » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2010, 04:06:14 AM »

Please don't waste your prayer on me. Nice gesture but a waste all the same. Pray for world peace, equal rights, end to world hunger, happiness and love instead. Maybe one more prayer request will be all it takes for God to decide to grant these prayers, I would hate to think you wasted that important prayer on me. If there was a God who fulfilled prayer, I would never be selfish enough to pray for myself when there are much bigger issues in the world to solve. Again, please direct me to the form I need to fill out in order to nominate myself for a sainthood.

You're anthropomorphizing God. This statement assumes that God can be overloaded with requests. Not to mention that God is ignoring the world. The world is constantly being saved and subsequently trashed by the will of man.
Well, actually I was referring to your prayer more so than your god, sorry if my statement was not clear enough. I doubt you have enough time in your day for work, play, posting on Atheist websites, reading through every Christian literature known to humankind as well as praying for the things that you would like your god to do. I was suggesting that you pray for better things than for me. With so many things out of kilter in the world, you could easily find an endless supply of things to pray for before I became top of your pray priority list. Your God hasn't sorted out world peace for example. There are wars that have been going on for decades, your god has had plenty of time to solve these. It is not like as you suggest being saved and subsequently trashed. If your God can't be overloaded and can do anything and already knows the future then I don't know what the problem is? BTW do prayers influence your god's behavior? Would your god not know what to do if the Christians stopped praying?

There is no God.

Now whom do you blame?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2010, 04:09:51 AM »

God is perfect
That's nice, I think my new baby daughter is perfect too.

Quote
it would be best if you aligned yourself with the intuitive Spirit of God
No thanks, I may not be perfect, but I am quite happy with the way I am. I refuse to align to a sexist viewpoint, to intolerance and to bestow guilt onto others, this seems wrong to me and my moralities I could never agree with the stance of your church or your scriptures.
Just because you think your god is perfect it does not give you the right to judge others, to suggest that others should have guilt, or are psychopaths if they do not have the guilt you suggest they should have.
Congratulations on the new baby. Many years!

That said, since you mentioned girlfriend rather than wife (or do you have one of those too?), it seems you don't want to be bothered with anything that might disquiet your behavior. Understandable, perhaps.  However, that doesn't make the issues go away.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2010, 05:31:56 AM »

There is no God.
Ahhhh, I knew if we communicated long enough we would finally find some common ground.
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2010, 05:32:57 AM »

Congratulations on the new baby. Many years!
Thank you very much. She arrived 4 days ago, I delivered her myself as we didn't have time to get to the hospital and the midwife didn't have time to get to our house. Terrifying experience but everything turned out just fine.
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,214



WWW
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2010, 10:18:13 AM »

No thanks, I may not be perfect, but I am quite happy with the way I am. I refuse to align to a sexist viewpoint, to intolerance and to bestow guilt onto others, this seems wrong to me and my moralities I could never agree with the stance of your church or your scriptures.
Just because you think your god is perfect it does not give you the right to judge others, to suggest that others should have guilt, or are psychopaths if they do not have the guilt you suggest they should have.

Well, if you aren't interested in God, than why are you bothering everyone asking for explanations, under the ruse that you might actually be interested in converting?

You have no interest in understanding Orthodoxy.  You simply want to argue.

My God, and your God, IS perfect.  However, He never instructed us to judge others.  You are again mistaken.

As for feeling guilt.  Most people naturally feel guilty when they have done something wrong.  It's not taught to us, it's just human nature.  I'm sorry you feel no guilt for any of your actions.  Sometimes it's rather cleansing.

As for psychopath.  That was not the Church's definition, but, Webster's.

psychopath  — n
Also called: sociopath  a person afflicted with a personality disorder characterized by a tendency to commit antisocial and sometimes violent acts and a failure to feel guilt for such acts.


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,662


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2010, 10:54:28 AM »

God is perfect
That's nice, I think my new baby daughter is perfect too.

Quote
it would be best if you aligned yourself with the intuitive Spirit of God
No thanks, I may not be perfect, but I am quite happy with the way I am. I refuse to align to a sexist viewpoint, to intolerance and to bestow guilt onto others, this seems wrong to me and my moralities I could never agree with the stance of your church or your scriptures.
Just because you think your god is perfect it does not give you the right to judge others, to suggest that others should have guilt, or are psychopaths if they do not have the guilt you suggest they should have.
TryingtoConvert, from what sources do you derive your morality?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2010, 11:02:28 AM »

There is no God.
Ahhhh, I knew if we communicated long enough we would finally find some common ground.
No. I don't doge questions.
Now whom do you blame?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2010, 11:07:15 AM »

No thanks, I may not be perfect, but I am quite happy with the way I am. I refuse to align to a sexist viewpoint, to intolerance and to bestow guilt onto others, this seems wrong to me and my moralities I could never agree with the stance of your church or your scriptures.
Just because you think your god is perfect it does not give you the right to judge others, to suggest that others should have guilt, or are psychopaths if they do not have the guilt you suggest they should have.

Well, if you aren't interested in God, than why are you bothering everyone asking for explanations, under the ruse that you might actually be interested in converting?

You have no interest in understanding Orthodoxy.  You simply want to argue.

My God, and your God, IS perfect.  However, He never instructed us to judge others.  You are again mistaken.

As for feeling guilt.  Most people naturally feel guilty when they have done something wrong.  It's not taught to us, it's just human nature.  I'm sorry you feel no guilt for any of your actions.  Sometimes it's rather cleansing.

As for psychopath.  That was not the Church's definition, but, Webster's.

psychopath  — n
Also called: sociopath  a person afflicted with a personality disorder characterized by a tendency to commit antisocial and sometimes violent acts and a failure to feel guilt for such acts.
I hear that they are removing narcissim from the DSM as a personality disorder.  But histrionic personality disorder would still be there, with the criteria of attention seeking behavior.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,265

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #70 on: December 03, 2010, 11:12:07 AM »

Please don't waste your prayer on me. Nice gesture but a waste all the same. Pray for world peace, equal rights, end to world hunger, happiness and love instead. Maybe one more prayer request will be all it takes for God to decide to grant these prayers, I would hate to think you wasted that important prayer on me. If there was a God who fulfilled prayer, I would never be selfish enough to pray for myself when there are much bigger issues in the world to solve. Again, please direct me to the form I need to fill out in order to nominate myself for a sainthood.

You're anthropomorphizing God. This statement assumes that God can be overloaded with requests. Not to mention that God is ignoring the world. The world is constantly being saved and subsequently trashed by the will of man.
Well, actually I was referring to your prayer more so than your god, sorry if my statement was not clear enough. I doubt you have enough time in your day for work, play, posting on Atheist websites, reading through every Christian literature known to humankind as well as praying for the things that you would like your god to do. I was suggesting that you pray for better things than for me. With so many things out of kilter in the world, you could easily find an endless supply of things to pray for before I became top of your pray priority list. Your God hasn't sorted out world peace for example. There are wars that have been going on for decades, your god has had plenty of time to solve these. It is not like as you suggest being saved and subsequently trashed. If your God can't be overloaded and can do anything and already knows the future then I don't know what the problem is? BTW do prayers influence your god's behavior? Would your god not know what to do if the Christians stopped praying?

Again, with the anthropomorphizing.
Logged
Nero
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 115



« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2010, 11:20:50 AM »

God is perfect
That's nice, I think my new baby daughter is perfect too.

Quote
it would be best if you aligned yourself with the intuitive Spirit of God
No thanks, I may not be perfect, but I am quite happy with the way I am. I refuse to align to a sexist viewpoint, to intolerance and to bestow guilt onto others, this seems wrong to me and my moralities I could never agree with the stance of your church or your scriptures.
Just because you think your god is perfect it does not give you the right to judge others, to suggest that others should have guilt, or are psychopaths if they do not have the guilt you suggest they should have.

Is it really sexist, though? What makes you think that?
For one thing, the most powerful saint in both Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism is... a woman.

Intolerance also is something that we don't stand for. Everyone has human dignity - that is absolutely established - and hatred against anyone is not something that our God permits. This doesn't mean that all the actions of humans are to be tolerated though (think of murder, thievery, persecution, rape, etc.)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 11:29:53 AM by Nero » Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2010, 11:30:30 AM »

Please don't waste your prayer on me. Nice gesture but a waste all the same. Pray for world peace, equal rights, end to world hunger, happiness and love instead. Maybe one more prayer request will be all it takes for God to decide to grant these prayers, I would hate to think you wasted that important prayer on me. If there was a God who fulfilled prayer, I would never be selfish enough to pray for myself when there are much bigger issues in the world to solve. Again, please direct me to the form I need to fill out in order to nominate myself for a sainthood.

You're anthropomorphizing God. This statement assumes that God can be overloaded with requests. Not to mention that God is ignoring the world. The world is constantly being saved and subsequently trashed by the will of man.
Well, actually I was referring to your prayer more so than your god, sorry if my statement was not clear enough. I doubt you have enough time in your day for work, play, posting on Atheist websites, reading through every Christian literature known to humankind as well as praying for the things that you would like your god to do. I was suggesting that you pray for better things than for me. With so many things out of kilter in the world, you could easily find an endless supply of things to pray for before I became top of your pray priority list. Your God hasn't sorted out world peace for example. There are wars that have been going on for decades, your god has had plenty of time to solve these. It is not like as you suggest being saved and subsequently trashed. If your God can't be overloaded and can do anything and already knows the future then I don't know what the problem is? BTW do prayers influence your god's behavior? Would your god not know what to do if the Christians stopped praying?

You ignored what I wrote. So instead of returning the same favor, I'll point out your logic flaws.

You talk about the 'world' as a single variable. The current population of the world is up to, what, 6,750,000,000 as of last year? That's 6.8 Billion variable wills counter to God's. Some will feel his peace, some will ignore it, but each one is a changing variable. Conflicts alone involve hundreds of thousands of individuals, each one capable of rejecting God's peace.

So yes, it is being saved and trashed between the 6.8 billion people with the revolving door of 350K born a day and 150K dead every day.


BTW do prayers influence your god's behavior? Would your god not know what to do if the Christians stopped praying?

God desires our freewill for His 'miracles' and Will. Can he act outside of this? Of course. Prayer is opening up your life to His will, making it possible for Him to work WITH you, and not AROUND you. The more people open to His work (read in communion with God), the more effectual our prayer. (This has held up in scientific study.)
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #73 on: December 03, 2010, 11:32:37 AM »

God is perfect
That's nice, I think my new baby daughter is perfect too.

Quote
it would be best if you aligned yourself with the intuitive Spirit of God
No thanks, I may not be perfect, but I am quite happy with the way I am. I refuse to align to a sexist viewpoint, to intolerance and to bestow guilt onto others, this seems wrong to me and my moralities I could never agree with the stance of your church or your scriptures.
Just because you think your god is perfect it does not give you the right to judge others, to suggest that others should have guilt, or are psychopaths if they do not have the guilt you suggest they should have.
TryingtoConvert, from what sources do you derive your morality?

Is there anything that should be restricted, for any kind of "good"? Or is everything, really, morally permissible?

I'm still waiting for an answer as well.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #74 on: December 03, 2010, 10:09:22 PM »

Wrong response for this thread, I'll get back to you guys in a little bit.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 10:11:34 PM by TryingtoConvert » Logged
Dart
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 655


« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2010, 10:27:50 PM »

Wrong response for this thread, I'll get back to you guys in a little bit.
Orthodox theology is very sound. It is understandable that you are having such dificulty trying to question it. You should remember that for hundreds of years Orthodox christians were persucuted and still maintained their faith. It could not have been in vain.
Logged
Dart
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 655


« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2010, 11:00:30 PM »

In regards to prayer....

ANSWERS TO PRAYER

Rev Andrew J Demotses,

In securing an answer to our prayers, we must take care that we cooperate with the Lord. Some people ask God to do for them what they could and should be doing for themselves. One time, for example, a young boy heard his father offer a fervent prayer for the poor and needy at their dinner table. When the prayers were over and all began to eat, the young boy asked, "Wouldn't it be simpler, dad, if we all just shared with those who have less?" Of course it would! But it is much easier to pray for someone than it is to sacrifice and to help him ourselves. We are not content to offer up to God what we cannot do ourselves, but often ask that he assume our responsibilities as well.

Most parents, for instance, pray that their children will mature into responsible and mature adulthood. Very few, however, take care to provide homes that reflect that maturity and responsibility. Somehow, they feel that that it will just happen without their effort and constant vigilance. People who are lonely often behave in the same way; it never occurs to them to stop wanting friends and instead become a friend to others. To the complaint "no one ever calls me," I always answer, "then why don't you call instead?"

We must try to answer our own prayers, and then leave what we cannot do to God. To do otherwise is to use prayer as a subtle method of avoiding our own responsibilities. We cannot pretend to care about something through prayer without first having tried ourselves to do what needs to be done. St. Paul made this point when he wrote, "Do not deceive your selves; no one makes a fool of God. A person will reap exactly what he plants." (Gal. 6:7)....

http://www.goarch.org/en/resources/sermons/sermonettes.asp
Logged
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,335


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2010, 11:18:25 PM »

Dear TryingtoConvert,

My husband is atheist, my son is Buddhist (tilts head sideways and squints) maybe taoist. . .maybe . . . something. . .don't quite know.  I love them both.  

With this said, neither have ever EXPERIENCED a miracle. . .outside of the natural norm of things taken so easily for granted - but that is another tangent for another time.  They have never walked on water, driven through cars, raised someone from the dead, felt the touch of His Hand, or the encouragement of His Spirit.  They have never seen an infant's face completely remade from the severe birth defect that would have cost her her life without any human intervention - or other miracles. . .just like the miracles written in His gospels. . .and invited to with the Sermon on the Mount.  You see, the Sermon on the Mount is an INVITATION to His Kingdom.   It's not a book of laws or a 'sermon'. . .it's a KEY.  But you have to have your eyes wide open on another level other than the material earth ones if you are going to see it.  

It's very simple - and until the Father draws you to His Son, you won't get it, because spiritual things are foolishness to the spiritually unborn.  You can ask or debate or do what ever you choose to do, but you will not SEE Him until you give Him your heart to purify.  (Beatitude - blessed are the pure in heart for they shall SEE God.) You cannot purify your heart yourself.  Only His Son can do it.  

The Person to ask isn't in black and white letters on this board - He's found either on your knees or with your hands open begging HIM to show you the truth.  He's the only one who can show it to you.  Everything and everyone else will fall short.  You can either choose to keep asking (God) or stop.  It's up to you.  You can choose to live or to die, that's up to you, too. . .every thing is a choice - and every choice is very simple, to live or to die.  To obtain life or to stay dead.  Up to you.

I pray for you, and my husband, and my son.  It is the Father's will that none would be lost.  My hope is for you, in His Name.  

« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 11:20:36 PM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2010, 01:47:31 PM »

There is no God.
Ahhhh, I knew if we communicated long enough we would finally find some common ground.
No. I don't doge questions.
Now whom do you blame?
I certainly found your first sentence more interesting and worthy of a response. Your second sentence/question did not imply that you were lying or being sarcastic with regards to the first sentence so I did not think it would be inaccurate to take your first sentence as it was written.

To address your question "Now whom do you blame?". I actually thought your question was rheotorical. There is certainly not one person to blame for all the issues of the world and in some cases the answer is not a whom but a what. I don't know the underlying causes of any of the world's problems actually.
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2010, 01:56:44 PM »

You talk about the 'world' as a single variable. The current population of the world is up to, what, 6,750,000,000 as of last year? That's 6.8 Billion variable wills counter to God's. Some will feel his peace, some will ignore it, but each one is a changing variable. Conflicts alone involve hundreds of thousands of individuals, each one capable of rejecting God's peace.

So yes, it is being saved and trashed between the 6.8 billion people with the revolving door of 350K born a day and 150K dead every day.
To quote, well, you actually "You're anthropomorphizing God. This statement assumes that God can be overloaded with requests"

I don't believe that everyone in the world is responsible for the continuing war in Burma as an example. There are probably only a handful of influential people keeping this war alive. Given how perfect, all knowing and all powerful I am told your god is (the Christian god I assume as you have not offered the actual name) it would seem that stopping this war would be trivial.

I find it interesting that you state things like "each one capable of rejecting God's peace" this assumes people know that your god exists, know what your god's peace is and is making an informed decision about whether to accept or reject that peace. I for one am not rejecting your god's peace as I have never been propositioned with it and hence have no grounds to accept or reject it. Does peace mean hearding up the sinners and throwing guilt and penance onto them until they are aligned with the Church, but obviously in a non judgemental way as judgement can only be made by your god?

Quote
God desires our freewill for His 'miracles' and Will.
I love that you brought up freewill. There is an old tv serious which I liked a lot. It was called American Gothic and had a cool phrase "the illusion of freewill".

I truly believe in that phrase. Everyone's freewill is hugely tainted. Some of the causes of these taints are: family upbringing, culture, school teachings, media influence, peer influence, country environment, community environment, role models, life experience, time period alive in, etc.

No-one has freewill. Some are more tainted or constrained than others. I personally see religion and Church as providing both taint and constraint on freewill which is evident by the followers' morals and thoughts being alligned with that of the religion and Church. The problem with taints on freewill is that people are generally unaware of them, hence the term "the illusion of freewill".
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2010, 02:12:09 PM »

There is no God.
Ahhhh, I knew if we communicated long enough we would finally find some common ground.
No. I don't doge questions.
Now whom do you blame?
I certainly found your first sentence more interesting and worthy of a response.
That doesn't suprise me.
Quote
Your second sentence/question did not imply that you were lying or being sarcastic
Neither lying nor being sarcastic. "For the sake of argument...."
Quote
with regards to the first sentence so I did not think it would be inaccurate to take your first sentence as it was written.
Perhaps it was too terse: ["For the same of argument, let's say] There is no God.["]

Quote
To address your question "Now whom do you blame?". I actually thought your question was rheotorical. There is certainly not one person to blame for all the issues of the world and in some cases the answer is not a whom but a what. I don't know the underlying causes of any of the world's problems actually.
Take a minute and a half and learn
The apple incident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q5BjtWDHXM
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Nero
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 115



« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2010, 04:20:34 PM »

I don't believe that everyone in the world is responsible for the continuing war in Burma as an example. There are probably only a handful of influential people keeping this war alive. Given how perfect, all knowing and all powerful I am told your god is (the Christian god I assume as you have not offered the actual name) it would seem that stopping this war would be trivial.

Do you think God turns a blind eye to that war, or to any human suffering? Not so. Remember the piece of the Sermon that you quoted: "Not a sparrow falls from heaven without your heavenly father seeing it."
If God were to immediately make it impossible for that war to continue, he would need to kill the free will of everyone who wanted the war to continue. He would need to make it impossible for them to choose anything but peace - in essence, he's made them into pre-programmed robots. That doesn't seem like a very godly thing to do. God has given us free will (ie: the ability to choose between good and bad) since the creation of man. He doesn't want us to be protocol-based robots. He wants us to choose what is good instead of it being forced onto us.

Quote
I truly believe in that phrase. Everyone's freewill is hugely tainted. Some of the causes of these taints are: family upbringing, culture, school teachings, media influence, peer influence, country environment, community environment, role models, life experience, time period alive in, etc.

No-one has freewill. Some are more tainted or constrained than others. I personally see religion and Church as providing both taint and constraint on freewill which is evident by the followers' morals and thoughts being alligned with that of the religion and Church. The problem with taints on freewill is that people are generally unaware of them, hence the term "the illusion of freewill".

Those things have nothing to do with free will in the slightest! Those may be bases of morality and opinion, but at the end of the day, not a single one of those things is going to restrict you from choosing one option if you want to. The church may say no, society and your parents might've said no, but ultimately the choice is always yours. Unless they're literally making it impossible to choose Option A over Option B (sinning or not sinning, for example) then they're nothing more than voices.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 04:21:58 PM by Nero » Logged
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,265

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2010, 04:30:37 PM »

One is almost forced to think that the extent of TryingtoConvert's research is the website forums he visits.  It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2010, 04:54:53 PM »

You talk about the 'world' as a single variable. The current population of the world is up to, what, 6,750,000,000 as of last year? That's 6.8 Billion variable wills counter to God's. Some will feel his peace, some will ignore it, but each one is a changing variable. Conflicts alone involve hundreds of thousands of individuals, each one capable of rejecting God's peace.

So yes, it is being saved and trashed between the 6.8 billion people with the revolving door of 350K born a day and 150K dead every day.
To quote, well, you actually "You're anthropomorphizing God. This statement assumes that God can be overloaded with requests"

I don't believe that everyone in the world is responsible for the continuing war in Burma as an example. There are probably only a handful of influential people keeping this war alive. Given how perfect, all knowing and all powerful I am told your god is (the Christian god I assume as you have not offered the actual name) it would seem that stopping this war would be trivial.

Each and every person involved in the conflict has a choice. The most influential person, or the most minute, have the same capacity to listen or ignore God.

I find it interesting that you state things like "each one capable of rejecting God's peace" this assumes people know that your god exists, know what your god's peace is and is making an informed decision about whether to accept or reject that peace. I for one am not rejecting your god's peace as I have never been propositioned with it and hence have no grounds to accept or reject it.

Belief in God is irrelevant to His existence and His influence. Just as my belief in your existence is irrelevant to your action and existance.

Does peace mean hearding up the sinners and throwing guilt and penance onto them until they are aligned with the Church, but obviously in a non judgemental way as judgement can only be made by your god?

What on Earth are you talking about? Try goggling the word for "peace" and "love".

Or are you just trolling? I would prefer you cease further attempts of distorting the discussion into cheap polemics.

Quote
God desires our freewill for His 'miracles' and Will.
I love that you brought up freewill. There is an old tv serious which I liked a lot. It was called American Gothic and had a cool phrase "the illusion of freewill".

I truly believe in that phrase. Everyone's freewill is hugely tainted. Some of the causes of these taints are: family upbringing, culture, school teachings, media influence, peer influence, country environment, community environment, role models, life experience, time period alive in, etc.

Does the media, your peers, experience, or culture 'force' you into action? Free will mean you have the 'freedom' to choose. These are influences, but they do not control you. Show me which one 'makes you act', not influence, 'forces you' to act.

No-one has freewill. Some are more tainted or constrained than others. I personally see religion and Church as providing both taint and constraint on freewill which is evident by the followers' morals and thoughts being alligned with that of the religion and Church. The problem with taints on freewill is that people are generally unaware of them, hence the term "the illusion of freewill".

You always have a choice, even if the choice for a given situation in 'difficult'.

Modern American culture enjoys shifting blame, and refusing personal responsibility. It's not surprising that it's popular to 'blame' everything else for personal choices. "It was my mom's fault." "My friends told me to." "He only saw it on TV." "She just made me so mad, I HAD to." You ALWAYS have a choice, anything else is a cop-out.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 04:55:40 PM by Azurestone » Logged


I'm going to need this.
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2010, 08:53:05 PM »

Belief in God is irrelevant to His existence and His influence. Just as my belief in your existence is irrelevant to your action and existance.
My statement was not with regards to belief or existence. I am not arguing whether your god exists or not. I am suggesting that not only can people accept or reject your God's peace but they can also be ignorant of your god's peace, not necessarily by choice but either cause they have never heard or understood it or they have never seen any proof as to what it is. There are many things that people have not chosen to accept or reject.

Quote
What on Earth are you talking about? Try goggling the word for "peace" and "love".

Or are you just trolling? I would prefer you cease further attempts of distorting the discussion into cheap polemics.
I can understand why you thought I was trolling, but actually my intent was pure. Our ongoing discussion has been with regards to the love of Christians. From our discussion, and from my preconceived ideas about Christianity I see that the Church wants its followers to align and obey, otherwise they are labeled as sinners and are made to do penance for their sins. Is this not correct? If this is the case then I see non acceptance and lack of love coming from Christians. If I were to ask a Homosexual what they thought the Christian community thought about them, I would suggest that Love would not be the word the Homosexual would respond with. As is probably evident to you I am not truly understanding what your god's peace is that you are saying people are accepting or rejecting? If I don't know what it is then how can I make an informed decision to accept or reject it?

Quote
Does the media, your peers, experience, or culture 'force' you into action? Free will mean you have the 'freedom' to choose. These are influences, but they do not control you. Show me which one 'makes you act', not influence, 'forces you' to act.
A person's actions are as a result of their thoughts, morals and values (their will).


Quote
You always have a choice, even if the choice for a given situation in 'difficult'.
Not true, choice is as a result of a person's tainted will. A Chinese person would choose to eat with chopsticks, a Westerner with a fork and an Indian with their hands. Seems to me that the choice converted to action here is predisposed to cultural upbringing.

Quote
Modern American culture enjoys shifting blame, and refusing personal responsibility. It's not surprising that it's popular to 'blame' everything else for personal choices. "It was my mom's fault." "My friends told me to." "He only saw it on TV." "She just made me so mad, I HAD to." You ALWAYS have a choice, anything else is a cop-out.
I would not want to put such a generalisation onto American culture, many are Christians, a few are Orthodoxy. I am not an American so cannot speak on such matters.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,045


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2010, 09:12:53 PM »

I'm still not sure why Jesus' expression of love and hope for the meek and downtrodden could ever be bad. What bad thing does He tell us to do?   Huh  In fact, there are many non-religious people who claim to at least admire some of the things Jesus said-- and this is the sermon that usually gets high marks from them. You would think that even if a person didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, they couldn't find fault with saying, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." (Mt. 5:7) What on Earth is wrong with that?   Huh

Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,469


WWW
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2010, 09:38:59 PM »

I'm still not sure why Jesus' expression of love and hope for the meek and downtrodden could ever be bad. What bad thing does He tell us to do?   Huh 

There are a number of threads pertaining to certain GOA Church(es) in Salt Lake City, UT where some parishioners want to tightly hold on to the products of their deceased predecessors "mammon" without ceding it to anyone else (which motivated the response given in Reply #59).  These individuals recently persuaded an Eparchial Synodal Committee (consisting of 3 Metropolitans and a legal representative) to investigate the matter with the expectation of overturning Met. Isaiah's Instructions to divide the assets of the 2 Churches and allow them to operate as 2 independent Churches with their own Parish Council (vs. the common Parish Council between both Churches). 

If the Eparchial Synodal Committee agrees with Met. Isaiah's recommendations, then only His All Holiness could reverse the situation and allow both Churches to continue operating with a shared Parish Council.

In fact, there are many non-religious people who claim to at least admire some of the things Jesus said-- and this is the sermon that usually gets high marks from them. You would think that even if a person didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, they couldn't find fault with saying, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." (Mt. 5:7) What on Earth is wrong with that?   Huh

TryingtoConvert didn't start with Matthew 5:7, he started with Matthew 6:16 which deals with fasting and hypocrisy and the OP quickly criticized fasting as "silly and dangerous."
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2010, 09:40:47 PM »

TryingtoConvert didn't start with Matthew 5:7, he started with Matthew 6:16 which deals with fasting and hypocrisy and the OP quickly criticized fasting as "silly and dangerous."

Nay, he only had to work with what the author gave him... Roll Eyes
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,045


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2010, 09:42:44 PM »

I still think there's nothing not to like about the Sermon itself. I don't happen to see it TTC's way.  Roll Eyes
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,469


WWW
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2010, 09:49:08 PM »

Agreed.
Logged
Tags: atheist hypocrisy misinterpretation 
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.194 seconds with 72 queries.