Author Topic: Sex and Morality (outside religion)  (Read 878 times)

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Offline TryingtoConvert

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Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« on: November 30, 2010, 03:13:27 AM »
So, outside of religion, is there any basis for a personal restriction on premarital sex? Are there any objective limitations for sexual behavior?


I would argue that, outside of the prohibitions of religion, there actually are still objective reasons to moderate one's sexual behavior. Of course there are the obvious ones, such as risk from STDs and unwanted pregnancy, but I think there are also emotional ones. Although emotional/psychological impacts of certain behavior can't always be quantified, I think we can at least make empirical estimates of what they might be.

I don't think it's always an issue of certain behavior being "right" or "wrong". Rather, I think it's kindof like the Buddhist concept of karma - whatever choices you make, there is a "karma" associated with it. So if you have sex with random chicks you meet at the club, that creates one type of karma. If you only have sex with one person in a mutually monogamist relationship, that creates another type of karma. It's just up to you to decide which type of karma you want in your life.

And although we can't always clearly delineate the tangible consequences of different behaviors, I think the differences do exist. It's like choosing to go left or right on a path - either direction will take you somewhere, it just depends on where you want to go.


As far as objective limitations for sexual behavior, I think that objectively we can say first and foremost that anything that harms someone should be considered wrong (but that's probably obvious).

Also, sex with kids should be considered wrong because even if they are "mature" and willing, they are not as mentally developed as an adult, no matter how mature they are. As long as we don't live in primitive societies where people die in their thirties, kids should be able to grow up without the influence and pressure of someone else's sexual desire imposed on them.

Sex with animals should be considered wrong because they can't give consent (Again, I'm just trying to lay out a rational standard for behavior here without invoking religion).

Incest should be considered wrong because of the conflict it creates with the structure of family relationships. Intimate relationships can come and go, but families are usually involved and support one another throughout one's entire life. Plus, you don't want any children with damaged genes.

I think those are the big issues that religious people argue would be allowable outside of religion. But there seems to be plenty of reason to not do them regardless.


Also, I think the current standard for becoming sexually active should be whenever you can support yourself financially. I often hear people talk about becoming sexually active when someone "feels" they are ready, or when they meet someone "special". Until you have a job and ARE paying the rent, I kindof think that's bull****. If you're dependent on your parents (or anyone else), or you don't have money to pay for a kid if pregnancy does happen, or to pay for treatment for an STD, then you are not "ready" no matter how old you are or how "special" the person you're with might be. I think if more people had that standard then that would solve a lot of problems in society.


Alright, that's all I got. Thoughts?

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2010, 03:19:24 AM »
Alright, that's all I got. Thoughts?

You need a cable talk show!

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2010, 04:45:21 PM »
As far as objective limitations for sexual behavior, I think that objectively we can say first and foremost that anything that harms someone should be considered wrong (but that's probably obvious).
What if someone wants to engage in sexual masochism, where "harm" is deemed sexually exciting?

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Also, sex with kids should be considered wrong because even if they are "mature" and willing, they are not as mentally developed as an adult, no matter how mature they are.
Define 'adult'. Is there an objective definition for "mentally developed"?
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As long as we don't live in primitive societies where people die in their thirties, kids should be able to grow up without the influence and pressure of someone else's sexual desire imposed on them.
What about if two kids want to have sex? Is one kid pressuring the other kid? Should we separate the sexually pressuring kids, from the kids who are pressured?

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Sex with animals should be considered wrong because they can't give consent (Again, I'm just trying to lay out a rational standard for behavior here without invoking religion).
So, if two animals are having sex, neither one is giving consent?

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Incest should be considered wrong because of the conflict it creates with the structure of family relationships.
Interracial relationships once created (and still do create) conflicts in families.
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Intimate relationships can come and go, but families are usually involved and support one another throughout one's entire life. Plus, you don't want any children with damaged genes.
Damaged genes could be easily corrected, in the near future, via genetic engineering.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 04:47:54 PM by Jetavan »
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2010, 05:22:28 PM »
I know from my own personal journey that had I waited for sex until after we were married I would have had a better life.

It has a purpose other than the dangerous ones such as disease and pregnancy.
It is a motivating factor that helps keep the marriage healthy at the beginning, and you also have a better outlook later. You will be proud if you did abstain.
But if you have sex for a year before getting married , then the most exciting and tender moments have been wasted before the marriage . This has an effect on you after you do get married.
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2010, 06:29:01 PM »
Somethings are best learned through the experience and failings of others.

I'm going to need this.

Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2010, 09:44:07 PM »
What if someone wants to engage in sexual masochism, where "harm" is deemed sexually exciting?
"Harm" should be considered something someone can't heal from. If some one likes being whipped, that's fine, but if you want to stab someone or cut off someone's limb, that's not.

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Define 'adult'. Is there an objective definition for "mentally developed"?
A mentally developed adult is basically able to manage their emotions and impulses. Some "adults" never seem reach this stage, but for an average person, it's basically near or sometime after puberty. We may not be able to say definitively when that is for everyone, but we can generally estimate that it is sometime after the late teen years. There has actually been research done however, that showed that the average age at which people's brains are fully "developed" is around age 25.

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What about if two kids want to have sex? Is one kid pressuring the other kid? Should we separate the sexually pressuring kids, from the kids who are pressured?
Both kids may want to have sex, but they should still be discouraged from doing so, in part because of the issue of "development" I mentioned previously and also because of the reason I mentioned later for what I think should be the actual standard for beginning sexual activity, which is to be able to care for oneself completely. Of course, there are also clear physiological reasons why really young kids shouldn't be having sex as well.

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So, if two animals are having sex, neither one is giving consent?
No, not in human terms. No more so than a small child can be considered to "give consent" to anything. Or course, it's fine for animals to mate with each other because they aren't held to human standards. Just like it's fine for a lion to kill and eat a zebra.

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Interracial relationships once created (and still do create) conflicts in families.
Interracial relationships don't inherently create conflicts within families. That's an issue with personal perspectives and bias. And the interpersonal conflicts that those relationships might create are not the same as the damage incest does to the functional roles family serves in a person's life. Lovers may come and go, but sisters, brothers, mothers and fathers are usually a part of a person's life for the duration of their life, without the burdens of romantic expectations, which is a beneficial dynamic to maintain.

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Damaged genes could be easily corrected, in the near future, via genetic engineering.
Unless you've seen some research that I haven't, that's just random speculation. But even if that were the case, there is also the issue of limiting genetic diversity. The benefit of mating with others you're not related to is that it introduces variation in the genetic code which contributes to our survival as a species.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 10:06:39 PM »
I'm slightly confused, where is the empiricism you initially hinted to?  This has been an opinion piece and nothing more.
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Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 11:08:13 PM »
Empiricism is knowledge gathered from sense and experience. That's EXACTLY what I'm describing here.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2010, 02:34:23 AM »
What if someone wants to engage in sexual masochism, where "harm" is deemed sexually exciting?
"Harm" should be considered something someone can't heal from. If some one likes being whipped, that's fine, but if you want to stab someone or cut off someone's limb, that's not.

Harm is a difficult thing to determine sometimes. What about knife play? How about breath play? How far is too far? Or perhaps a slave tattoo, whether that be the slave registration number, or the name of the person's current master? Just thinking/wondering out loud here...  :)
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Online ialmisry

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2010, 04:33:04 AM »
Empiricism is knowledge gathered from sense and experience. That's EXACTLY what I'm describing here.
Speaking of gathering, where did you plagerize this from?
And this OP was pulled directly from here:

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Jesus

It appears we have quite the ironchariots fan here. Please start posting your sources, sir. I'm sure Matt wouldn't appreciate you shamelessly passing his work off as your own.

I have no problem replying to questions regarding the faith that are posed in a respectful manner. However, I have no patience for those who purposefully set out to actively disparage the faith with threads like these. Perhaps it is good for the OP that some of you have more patience than I.

BTW, the OP was copy and pasted from the following site maintained by the renown atheist from "The Atheist Experience" Matt Dillahunty.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_mount
Less describing. More EXACT citation.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 04:34:49 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Dnarmist

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2010, 04:37:47 AM »
Hahaha
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 04:37:58 AM by Dnarmist »

Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Sex and Morality (outside religion)
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2010, 04:38:45 AM »
i'm not plagarizing it from anywhere