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Author Topic: Papal deeds speak louder  (Read 9150 times) Average Rating: 0
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Deacon Lance
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« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2002, 12:25:11 AM »

Bobby,

I thank you for removing the post.  Again, I don't disagree with your contention that they are papal maximalists.  And if you go into the EWTN archives you will find it was I who Dr. Carroll was debating with over St. Photios and other Eastern Catholic/Orthodox issues.  However, their ultra-montane position, as distasteful as many find it, is a legitimate one within the Catholic Church as much as Catholics have no grace is in the Orthodox Church.  Neither is a popular or majority opinion in either Church (as far as I know) but they are tolerated.  We can disagree with the opinion but that does not make those who hold it bad people or deserving of insult.

In Christ,
Lance

P.S.
You state: "I have not seen any Orthodox 'apologists' who contort history to fit their own demands"

You haven't read any of the MP's accounts of the Pseudo-Synods of Lviv or Uzohorod and subsequent liquidation and persecution of the Greek Catholic Church in the USSR?
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« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2002, 10:03:26 AM »

I have no personal animosity towards James Likoudis, who has visited my site and signed the guestbook. My understanding is he converted from very nominal Greek Orthodox membership (born) to Roman Catholicism in 1952 — perhaps canonically he should have been Byzantine Catholic but AFAIK he worships in the Roman Rite and does not identify himself as Eastern — and I don't think he personally is bad even if one doesn't agree with his views. I'm not that familiar with Dave Armstrong's writings but am impressed he cares so much about Fr Seraphim (Rose), a figure not generally known to mainstream society, that he expends energy and bandwidth trying to refute him. Warren Carroll, an ex-Protestant, AFAIK does yeoman service for the Roman Catholic Church but is clueless and nasty when it comes to the Christian East.
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« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2002, 11:13:07 AM »

In defense of Dave Armstrong, I will say that he used to have some pieces on his site about Orthodoxy that said or implied or could be misconstrued to support the idea that Orthodoxy supported abortion.  I informed him that on message boards over the internet, people were quoting his site as authoritatively saying that Orthodoxy supported abortion.  Dave removed those pieces.

I will say that most people are not cut out to be able to debate him.  He puts in a lot of energy into a debate and most people cannot match him in his tenacity.  If someone is not willing to go the distance, Dave will wear them down until they quit.  Of course, it doesn't prove that his points are valid, but he'll usually "win" a debate by sheer endurance.
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Seraphim Reeves
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« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2002, 11:39:28 AM »

Bobby,

Though I will note that in the past we have not always agreed, I feel the need to come to your defence on the "pillars or heterodoxy" issue.

Roman Catholic neo-conservatives (particularly the American variety, who seem very ignorant of the fact of just how isolated a group they really are; there is no ideological equivelent to them in Rome, or anywhere else in the world) like Armstrong and Carrol are no better, nor any worse, than any other heretic of an age past; as their sincerity (or lack there of; does it really matter...let no one pretend they can read the minds of these men either way) doesn't really matter.  It's the damage they do which is of real importance.

Sadly, in the case of all three of these men (and this is the rub), their ignorance/distortion of facts is only out done by their smugness, along with a "punch and duck" approach to "apologetics" and argumentation.  For example, Armstrong will imply or even forthrightly state the most unfair and skewed things about the Christian East (and as you mention, not simply about the Orthodox, but even Byzantine Catholics...though it's the former that really seem to get on his nerves), but when anyone (on doctrinal grounds) questions the propriety of the RCC, they quickly become "anti-Catholic."

This reminds me of the game that liberal American Jewry plays; any criticism of either the Roman Catholic/Jewish religion, or the culture surrounding it, automatically renders one "anti-Catholic" or "anti-Semitic".  It's a cowards ploy, and should be called such.

I've personally tangeled with Dave on the 'net, and find him incredibly irritating, and precisely for these reasons.  Having read some of Likoudis' nonsense, I'm left almost as unimpressed with him.

The truth is Bobby, there is no point trying to avoid the label "anti-Catholic", since no matter how nice you are, unless you're an ecumenical "we're both a lung of Christ's mystical body" love bunny, you'll be painted as being uncharitable and even hateful by these demagogues.  Truth knows her children, and her children know her; those that will hear what you have to say (even using jest and humour), so long as you're not trying to be hateful, will hear you.  Those who would not, it hardly matters what you do either way.

Seraphim
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« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2002, 11:44:48 AM »

Seraphim,

You are quite right.  It is the coward's ploy to toss up the "anti-X" word whenever one is backed into a corner or even questioned.  I've even been called "anti-Catholic" because I happen to find the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom to be much more conducive to my own understanding of worship than even the most piously celebrated High Tridentine Missa Dialoga.  Some people just like to toss the "anti-X" phrase around because it's so much easier than listening, let alone debating.
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« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2002, 11:54:07 AM »

Lance,

Quote
It doesn't matter if it was a joke.  I think the point is the post was immature and in bad taste and certainly will give people the idea this site is anti-Catholic.  One could imagine the indignation if the same post appeared elsewhere but with 3 Orthodox apologetic writer's pictures.

It would deserve indignation if it did not smack of the truth in any sense.  Unfortunately, I think Bobby's satire was right on.

Quote
However, I think the post is a further disservice because it portrays the men unfarily in my estimation.

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree; having dealt with Dave, I think it's fairly accurate.

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Now, I am no fan of any of them but they are simply trying to be good Latin Catholic apologists defending their tradition.

Ditto with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Hare Krishna's flooding into Russia trying to pervert an Orthodox people (either who are baptized, or whose forefathers were Orthodox and who have been betrayed of their heritage).  Sincerity is highly over rated in situations like this, since the focus is ultimately not on these men personally, but on their deeds and how they harm souls.

Quote
You can disagree, but to lower yourself to name calling is unworthy.

So you think satire is a dead end?

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Furthermore, after reading some of Dave Armstrong's website he is ceratinly more charitable and irenic to the Orthodox than places like orthodoxinfo.com are to Catholics.

Nonsense.  If by "charitable" you mean (in RC ecumenist speak) in reality "conceeding more", then I'll agree; the official Vaticanite line right now does conceed more (in the way of saying "where you guys are correct" and "where you guys stand") than the true Orthodox view does to heterodox confessions (like the RCC).  But since when is such doctrinal flattery "charity"?

If however by charity you mean ostensible good intentions and dealing fairly with opponents, and at least trying to deal with history as it actually happens, I think a website like "orthodoxinfo.com" is miles ahead of Dave or James' rubbish.  In fact I really wonder, for all of the neo-conservative RC whining, just what is so "mean spirited" on orthodoxinfo.com (save of course, it's lack of anglo-catholic, branch-theory ecclessiology, and insistance that Orthodox Christianity is the true Christian revelation)?

Seraphim
« Last Edit: November 19, 2002, 11:59:11 AM by Seraphim Reeves » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2002, 07:53:19 PM »

Have you noticed that many Protestant converts who become Orthodox or Catholics usually follow the most traditional and conservative groups?

I am thinking about Gerry Matatiscs for example, or Dave Amstrong, and also some of the Orthodox writers from orthodoxinfo.



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« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2002, 08:02:28 PM »

Have you noticed that many Protestant converts who become Orthodox or Catholics usually follow the most traditional and conservative groups?

I am thinking about Gerry Matatiscs for example, or Dave Amstrong, and also some of the Orthodox writers from orthodoxinfo.

Not always, Remie, unless you have statistics to the contrary.  But converts generally are more fervent in the practice of their adopted faith than "cradle" Orthodox or Catholics, that is, until they see some of their older brethren in the faith not taking the faith as seriously as they--at which time they feel betrayed, become disgruntled and.....

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2002, 08:47:09 PM »

What statistics does Remie have to support this wild claim? Could anyone imagine the flying condemnations should I forward such groundless strawman tactics and speculations? I could hardly pass eyewitness accounts without getting thumb screws, cattle prods, and the torture rack.

Let everyone take notice that ALL of the Orthodox Churches, that is those who have continued the living tradition (ie. “Old Calendarists”), have sprung from the mother countries, and not from the West. In fact, even the ones located in the West are filled with “cradle” Orthodox. I have not seen a single one with even a significant percentage of converts from faiths other than new-calendarism.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2002, 08:54:45 PM by OrthodoxyOrDeath » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2002, 04:00:38 PM »

I never said anything about statistics, I just said I thought about the famous apologetics books I've read and some articles written from converts. And I mentioned some converts not all of them, I never criticized that they were fervent or not, I think that converts and craddle are all part of the Church, regardless of ethnic origin and pertsonal stories.
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« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2002, 12:32:08 AM »

In defense of Dave Armstrong, I will say that he used to have some pieces on his site about Orthodoxy that said or implied or could be misconstrued to support the idea that Orthodoxy supported abortion.  I informed him that on message boards over the internet, people were quoting his site as authoritatively saying that Orthodoxy supported abortion.  Dave removed those pieces.

I will say that most people are not cut out to be able to debate him.  He puts in a lot of energy into a debate and most people cannot match him in his tenacity.  If someone is not willing to go the distance, Dave will wear them down until they quit.  Of course, it doesn't prove that his points are valid, but he'll usually "win" a debate by sheer endurance.

From what I have heard from someone who knew/knows David Armstrong, he arranges his life around his apologetic pursuits.  Most other people have lives, of which apologetic endeavors do not dominate.  Personally, I have never had a "discussion" with him, but I have found his "style" to be condescending not just with Orthodox, but even with Catholics who don't "see" Catholicism in the exact way he sees it.

Stephen
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« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2002, 01:29:00 AM »

Quote
Quote
From what I have heard from someone who knew/knows David Armstrong, he arranges his life around his apologetic pursuits.  Most other people have lives, of which apologetic endeavors do not dominate.  Personally, I have never had a "discussion" with him, but I have found his "style" to be condescending not just with Orthodox, but even with Catholics who don't "see" Catholicism in the exact way he sees it.

Stephen

I've had a few encounters with Dave. This is my opinion but I don't believe he's a really good apologist (not that I am, certainly). He's a very good polemicist though. He thrives on "winning" a debate, no matter the issue or opponent. But I've seen Joel Kalvesmaki pretty effectively frustrate him on at least one occasion. I will give him credit, as Joseph mentioned, for removing or modifying certain claims against Orthodoxy when challenged.

loukas
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JoeS
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« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2002, 09:58:57 AM »

Seraphim,

What a hoot, I just loved this discription.

<<...ecumenical "we're both a lung of Christ's mystical body" love bunny, ...>>>

JoeS
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