OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 09:17:14 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why is the existence of life a good thing?  (Read 1595 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Dnarmist
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 88


Seems Uncertain


« on: November 30, 2010, 02:32:18 AM »

Why is the existence of life good?
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,786



« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2010, 02:55:11 AM »

Is "goodness" were a human intellectual construct, how could it exist objectively if humans were never given life?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 02:56:32 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2010, 03:36:28 AM »

Why is the existence of life good?

Why not? Grin


Seriously, though. The question almost requires a reductionum ad nauseum from where you're going.

Life is existence. If you aren't athiest, then life is existence-material. The destruction of life is denying people a material life, which despite it's faults, many agree has many values. Therefore, to destroy life is to deny value and opportunity (the very basis of opportunity).

That's without an appeal to God, but God built value into us.   
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2010, 03:39:09 AM »

Why must it be labeled good or bad?  Life just "is".
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,653


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2010, 07:16:10 AM »

If you are going to experience anything, it must exist. If you wanted to experience nothing, and therefore wanted life to not exist, you would also lose the good along with the bad. It's a boring person indeed who doesn't find anything interesting.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2010, 10:32:25 AM »

College basketball?
Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 11:03:28 AM »

College basketball?
So you are arguing that life stinks then?  Wink
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 11:06:49 AM »

If you are going to go all angsty, coffee shop, go all the way. But unfortunately, Schopenhauer PWND all those who would tread in his footsteps, when he asked:

Why is there nothing, rather than something?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 11:07:40 AM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2010, 11:09:18 AM »

College basketball?
So you are arguing that life stinks then?  Wink

Anathema!  Cheesy
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,558



WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 11:22:39 AM »

Why is the existence of life good?

Life in what sense?

Spiritual or physical?

....by the way, both are good, I'm just curious about the question.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 12:51:10 PM »

Why must it be labeled good or bad?  Life just "is".

If it's just is, why is the day of birth so joyful and the day of death so mournful?  Why do we seek to live longer, or at the very least at a better quality?  I think goodness is implied with life by our practices.

If it's just is, what difference does it make that we strive to live longer or better?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 12:52:22 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,239



« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 01:11:15 PM »

Why must it be labeled good or bad?  Life just "is".

What he said...
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2010, 01:11:15 PM »

Why is the existence of life good?

It is fundamental to revelation that all Creation is Good. 

Another way to say it is that Life is Good because God is Life and God is Good.

Logged

orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2010, 01:52:42 PM »

Why must it be labeled good or bad?  Life just "is".

If it's just is, why is the day of birth so joyful and the day of death so mournful?  Why do we seek to live longer, or at the very least at a better quality?

These are not the rules. Births are not always joyful nor are deaths mourned. Not all seek to live longer nor with whatever you might define as "better quality".
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2010, 01:57:58 PM »

Why must it be labeled good or bad?  Life just "is".

If it's just is, why is the day of birth so joyful and the day of death so mournful?  Why do we seek to live longer, or at the very least at a better quality?

These are not the rules. Births are not always joyful nor are deaths mourned. Not all seek to live longer nor with whatever you might define as "better quality".

Who are those who do not rejoice at the birth of a child?

Who are those that do not mourn the death of a loved one (outside of Christian theology)?

Who does not seek to live better or longer (outside of Christian theology)?

These people you speak of are partaking of "bad" things.

My line of work depends on the philosophy that life essentially is (should be) good.  The advances of science for the betterment of lives of future generations requires the belief that life is ultimately good.  "Life just is" is a vain saying.  If life is only about gaining knowledge, then life perhaps just is.  But the irony is, knowledge is now implied as good, and knowledge requires that one is alive.  Despite the odds, Hawkings should be the most thankful at the prolonged life he has to gain the knowledge he attained.  Otherwise, for life to be just is for him, he should have given up on his own life and let ALS destroy it.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 02:02:31 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2010, 02:03:21 PM »

Why must it be labeled good or bad?  Life just "is".

If it's just is, why is the day of birth so joyful and the day of death so mournful?  Why do we seek to live longer, or at the very least at a better quality?

These are not the rules. Births are not always joyful nor are deaths mourned. Not all seek to live longer nor with whatever you might define as "better quality".

Who are those who do not rejoice at the birth of a child?

Who are those that do not mourn the death of a loved one (outside of Christian theology)?

Who does not seek to live better or longer (outside of Christian theology)?

These people you speak of are partaking of "bad" things.

My line of work depends on the philosophy that life essentially is (should be) good.  The advances of science for the betterment of lives of future generations requires the belief that life is ultimately good.

Glad you have a "philosophy" albeit one which ignores reality. I am not going to answer your questions about who does or doesn't do things, I am not sure how one acts "outside of Christian theology" anyhow. You can answers those questions yourself, if they were not merely rhetorical, by paying attention to the world around you.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2010, 02:07:03 PM »

I'm appealing to those who do not think through the lens of Christianity.

As for you, I would love to hear examples so you put me back to reality.  Otherwise, your bitterness speaks for itself.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 02:09:50 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2010, 02:32:56 PM »

I'm appealing to those who do not think through the lens of Christianity.

As for you, I would love to hear examples so you put me back to reality.  Otherwise, your bitterness speaks for itself.

How am I bitter? Just pointing out to you that you are wrong in mere sense that stating dogs don't speak French. If you are going to limit your understanding of the world only to those events which conform to it, then there is no discussion and you are in the realm of the tautological.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2010, 02:36:08 PM »

I'm appealing to those who do not think through the lens of Christianity.

As for you, I would love to hear examples so you put me back to reality.  Otherwise, your bitterness speaks for itself.

How am I bitter? Just pointing out to you that you are wrong in mere sense that stating dogs don't speak French. If you are going to limit your understanding of the world only to those events which conform to it, then there is no discussion and you are in the realm of the tautological.



Rather than being bitterly pejorative about what I said, I challenge you to give me an example or at the very least, show me the error of my ways.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 02:38:27 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2010, 02:40:50 PM »

Why must it be labeled good or bad?  Life just "is".

If it's just is, why is the day of birth so joyful and the day of death so mournful?  Why do we seek to live longer, or at the very least at a better quality?

These are not the rules. Births are not always joyful nor are deaths mourned. Not all seek to live longer nor with whatever you might define as "better quality".

Who are those who do not rejoice at the birth of a child?

Who are those that do not mourn the death of a loved one (outside of Christian theology)?

Who does not seek to live better or longer (outside of Christian theology)?

These people you speak of are partaking of "bad" things.

Some have children they do not want or they know they cannot feed, the child can be a source of pain, not joy.

Some will celebrate the death of one they do not like, others will even take the life of a loved one for personal gain.

Some are depressed and do not wish to live, some see existence as nothing but the source of pain and suffering and seek release from it.

Quote
My line of work depends on the philosophy that life essentially is (should be) good.  The advances of science for the betterment of lives of future generations requires the belief that life is ultimately good.  "Life just is" is a vain saying.  If life is only about gaining knowledge, then life perhaps just is.  But the irony is, knowledge is now implied as good, and knowledge requires that one is alive.  Despite the odds, Hawkings should be the most thankful at the prolonged life he has to gain the knowledge he attained.  Otherwise, for life to be just is for him, he should have given up on his own life and let ALS destroy it.

I'm glad existence is good for you and I think it is for most people...but not for everyone. At the end of the day, for some people one's existence good thing, for others a bad and most think it is good that some people exist and that it would be better if other's didn't.

Existence just is...

Whether it's good or bad is a subjective, personal label.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 02:42:16 PM by GiC » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2010, 02:52:03 PM »

I'm appealing to those who do not think through the lens of Christianity.

As for you, I would love to hear examples so you put me back to reality.  Otherwise, your bitterness speaks for itself.

How am I bitter? Just pointing out to you that you are wrong in mere sense that stating dogs don't speak French. If you are going to limit your understanding of the world only to those events which conform to it, then there is no discussion and you are in the realm of the tautological.



Rather than being bitterly pejorative about what I said, I challenge you to give me an example or at the very least, show me the error of my ways.

Maybe we are having a problem with language. What did I say which is "bitterly pejorative"? Please quote the words I wrote and why they are "bitterly pejorative". Telling someone they are wrong is neither bitter nor pejorative.

I did not mean to offend and do not think what I wrote was offensive. But I am always eager to learn.

Answer that question and I will add more graphic examples to what GIC listed. It doesn't require a lot of imagination, if you pay attention to the world.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,239



« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2010, 03:00:45 PM »

If you are going to go all angsty, coffee shop, go all the way. But unfortunately, Schopenhauer PWND all those who would tread in his footsteps, when he asked:

Why is there nothing, rather than something?

I don't quite understand what you're saying here, could you expand on it a bit?
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2010, 03:05:20 PM »

Some have children they do not want or they know they cannot feed, the child can be a source of pain, not joy.

Then it is our job to alleviate that.

Quote
Some will celebrate the death of one they do not like, others will even take the life of a loved one for personal gain.

Then that's pitiful and wrong.

Quote
Some are depressed and do not wish to live, some see existence as nothing but the source of pain and suffering and seek release from it.

Then that's also pitiful, and we need to help them.

Quote
I'm glad existence is good for you and I think it is for most people...but not for everyone. At the end of the day, for some people one's existence good thing, for others a bad and most think it is good that some people exist and that it would be better if other's didn't.

Existence just is...

Whether it's good or bad is a subjective, personal label.

It's not subjective.  People who are not happy with life are not fit to live in nature.  Either they will die off as least fit or we help them be fit.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 03:06:06 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2010, 03:11:26 PM »

Orthonorm, you should learn from GiC in how he answered the question.

Here's why I described your response as bitter:

Glad you have a "philosophy" albeit one which ignores reality. I am not going to answer your questions about who does or doesn't do things, I am not sure how one acts "outside of Christian theology" anyhow. You can answers those questions yourself, if they were not merely rhetorical, by paying attention to the world around you.

You don't know me.  I know what goes on around me, and I've been through some pain in my life.  So don't give me that crap of yours that I know nothing around me.  I know exactly what I said.  My philosophy is not necessarily what describes life around me, but how we should live it.

Just address my question, but don't call me ignorant.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 03:14:02 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2010, 03:11:52 PM »

If you are going to go all angsty, coffee shop, go all the way. But unfortunately, Schopenhauer PWND all those who would tread in his footsteps, when he asked:

Why is there nothing, rather than something?

I don't quite understand what you're saying here, could you expand on it a bit?

Tough crowd here.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2010, 03:13:06 PM »

If you are going to go all angsty, coffee shop, go all the way. But unfortunately, Schopenhauer PWND all those who would tread in his footsteps, when he asked:

Why is there nothing, rather than something?

I don't quite understand what you're saying here, could you expand on it a bit?

Tough crowd here.

pwnage... sweet
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,131


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2010, 03:15:33 PM »

If God is the source of life, and God is The Good, then life must be good as well. No evil can come from God.
Perhaps this is why Thomas Aquinas argues that insomuch as a thing has existence, actuality, and conforms to its proper form, it is good, true, and beautiful.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 03:16:16 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,239



« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2010, 03:20:48 PM »

If you are going to go all angsty, coffee shop, go all the way. But unfortunately, Schopenhauer PWND all those who would tread in his footsteps, when he asked:

Why is there nothing, rather than something?

I don't quite understand what you're saying here, could you expand on it a bit?

Tough crowd here.

Are you unable to expand on what you said then?
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2010, 03:22:55 PM »

Orthonorm, you should learn from GiC in how he answered the question.

Here's why I described your response as bitter:

Glad you have a "philosophy" albeit one which ignores reality. I am not going to answer your questions about who does or doesn't do things, I am not sure how one acts "outside of Christian theology" anyhow. You can answers those questions yourself, if they were not merely rhetorical, by paying attention to the world around you.

You don't know me.  I know what goes on around me, and I've been through some pain in my life.  So don't give me that crap of yours that I know nothing around me.  I know exactly what I said.  My philosophy is not what describes life around me, but how we should live it.

I don't need to know you to know that your statement is simply wrong. Your "philosophy" as stated is simply inaccurate. Your argument is becoming a moving target.

Sorry for whatever pain you have been through, but that does not make my statements any less incorrect or bitter.

You assume too much. Nothing other than what I wrote was meant. Any implications you drew were unintentional on my part.

If you have a "philosophy" on how things *should* be, again not much discussion to be had. Wishes and dreams are hard to argue.

Although you didn't convince me my words were bitter nor pejorative, I will answer your questions with a few answer, although you have changed your argument entirely.

Mothers in near states of catatonia dump their newborns into dumpsters. Many mothers have their babies evacuated before their birth.

People rape, kill, and torture family members, neighbors, strangers, out of fear, retribution, nationalism, pleasure, etc.

Many kill themselves because they see no quality in life at all and find their own life to be a burden on others.
 
A boy recently in my neighborhood tried to kill himself by sticking a kitchen knife into his stomach a few times. He claimed, no one loved him and there was no point to living. He is eight years old.

Some people out of solidarity with others starve themselves nearly to death, go without medical treatment, or willingly die the most gruesome of deaths for others. This of course raises the question about what "quality of life" means, especially if such a phrase has any relevance for a Christian.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 03:23:17 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2010, 03:32:06 PM »

Mothers in near states of catatonia dump their newborns into dumpsters. Many mothers have their babies evacuated before their birth.

And is this not good or bad?  Should we not do something about that?  Shouldn't we help the mothers as best as we can with the tools we have now?

Quote
People rape, kill, and torture family members, neighbors, strangers, out of fear, retribution, nationalism, pleasure, etc.

And is this not good or bad?  Should we not do something about that?

Quote
Many kill themselves because they see no quality in life at all and find their own life to be a burden on others.

Shouldn't we do something to help them?

All you stated precisely proves how good life is.  You are appealing to the suffering of the world showing how people react to life is bad, and I agree it's bad.  But goodness of life requires charity, alms, healing.  What's the point of a physician if all he does is complain about the stab wound a patient comes in and not does something about it?

Quote
A boy recently in my neighborhood tried to kill himself by sticking a kitchen knife into his stomach a few times. He claimed, no one loved him and there was no point to living. He is eight years old.

Then he needs help.  We don't just talk about suffering people go through, we are moved by the fact that life should be good to help those who see life in another way.

Quote
Some people out of solidarity with others starve themselves nearly to death, go without medical treatment, or willingly die the most gruesome of deaths for others. This of course raises the question about what "quality of life" means, especially if such a phrase has any relevance for a Christian.

Yes, they willingly do so.  But we don't give up on such people.  We try as much as possible to rehabilitate them.

If life isn't good, then there's no point in helping these people you mention.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2010, 03:43:23 PM »

Mothers in near states of catatonia dump their newborns into dumpsters. Many mothers have their babies evacuated before their birth.

And is this not good or bad?  Should we not do something about that?  Shouldn't we help the mothers as best as we can with the tools we have now?

Quote
People rape, kill, and torture family members, neighbors, strangers, out of fear, retribution, nationalism, pleasure, etc.

And is this not good or bad?  Should we not do something about that?

Quote
Many kill themselves because they see no quality in life at all and find their own life to be a burden on others.

Shouldn't we do something to help them?

All you stated precisely proves how good life is.  You are appealing to the suffering of the world showing how people react to life is bad, and I agree it's bad.  But goodness of life requires charity, alms, healing.  What's the point of a physician if all he does is complain about the stab wound a patient comes in and not does something about it?

Quote
A boy recently in my neighborhood tried to kill himself by sticking a kitchen knife into his stomach a few times. He claimed, no one loved him and there was no point to living. He is eight years old.

Then he needs help.  We don't just talk about suffering people go through, we are moved by the fact that life should be good to help those who see life in another way.

Quote
Some people out of solidarity with others starve themselves nearly to death, go without medical treatment, or willingly die the most gruesome of deaths for others. This of course raises the question about what "quality of life" means, especially if such a phrase has any relevance for a Christian.

Yes, they willingly do so.  But we don't give up on such people.  We try as much as possible to rehabilitate them.

If life isn't good, then there's no point in helping these people you mention.

You simply asked who would not find a birth joyful or a death mournful. There are just a smattering of answers.

Who said there is any point in helping them? And really there are other reasons to get involved without thinking life is good in itself. The results of believing life in itself is a good could lead to all kinds of behavior. This is just a hint of point about this being a angsty question. It just goes nowhere. It assumes too much and not enough.

Someone once said something about having to lose your life to gain it. And suffering and carrying crosses.

The only thing I find interesting in this thread is whether measuring something like "quality of life" has any place in Christian life.

 
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2010, 03:54:08 PM »

You simply asked who would not find a birth joyful or a death mournful. There are just a smattering of answers.

Yes, to iterate the point that life is good, and that those examples you mention are those who are failing at life, not that life is subjective.

Quote
Who said there is any point in helping them? And really there are other reasons to get involved without thinking life is good in itself.

Altruism, or loving thy neighbor.

Quote
The results of believing life in itself is a good could lead to all kinds of behavior. This is just a hint of point about this being a angsty question. It just goes nowhere. It assumes too much and not enough.

It assumes faith, hope, and love.  It assumes health vs. disease in life and that where disease exists, we treat it.

Faith that there is way to treat it, hope that you will find the way to treat it, and love, the driving force of faith and hope.

Quote
Someone once said something about having to lose your life to gain it. And suffering and carrying crosses.

The only thing I find interesting in this thread is whether measuring something like "quality of life" has any place in Christian life.

A physician's primary job is to improve the quality of the life of a patient.  Christ improves the quality of spiritual life of His patients.  Sacrifice of course is the greatest form of altruism and what better sacrifice than Christ (and of course endurance of a positive outlook of life despite suffering)!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 04:11:06 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2010, 04:30:13 PM »

Some have children they do not want or they know they cannot feed, the child can be a source of pain, not joy.

Then it is our job to alleviate that.

Quote
Some will celebrate the death of one they do not like, others will even take the life of a loved one for personal gain.

Then that's pitiful and wrong.

Quote
Some are depressed and do not wish to live, some see existence as nothing but the source of pain and suffering and seek release from it.

Then that's also pitiful, and we need to help them.

Quote
I'm glad existence is good for you and I think it is for most people...but not for everyone. At the end of the day, for some people one's existence good thing, for others a bad and most think it is good that some people exist and that it would be better if other's didn't.

Existence just is...

Whether it's good or bad is a subjective, personal label.

It's not subjective.  People who are not happy with life are not fit to live in nature.  Either they will die off as least fit or we help them be fit.

What you've argued here is that existence should be a good and joyous thing and you'll get no arguments from me on that point.

But, alas, things are not always as we would like them to be.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,277


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2010, 04:36:49 PM »

If God is the source of life, and God is The Good, then life must be good as well. No evil can come from God.
Perhaps this is why Thomas Aquinas argues that insomuch as a thing has existence, actuality, and conforms to its proper form, it is good, true, and beautiful.
One problem with that idea is that God also made free-will, which must be good, since God is The Good.

And, yet, free-will is the source of human-created non-good.

One would think that if free-will is good, then it's exercise should be all good, as well.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2010, 04:39:16 PM »

What you've argued here is that existence should be a good and joyous thing and you'll get no arguments from me on that point.

But, alas, things are not always as we would like them to be.

Well, then, if life just is, there's no point in research and development for the betterment of human life.  Scientists have faith that life should be good, and they have faith in the goodness of life.  If life will always be just is, then there is no point in our research.

Understandably, yes, life is what you make it out to be.  But I think Nature shows through survival of the fittest that for those who have a bad life are quickly lead towards non-existence.  If that's what life is all about, a struggle to survive, then indeed, there's something good about life, and life is ultimately good, and so the way we should act reflects faith in the existence of the result of that action.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 04:41:11 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2010, 05:58:48 PM »

Understandably, yes, life is what you make it out to be.  But I think Nature shows through survival of the fittest that for those who have a bad life are quickly lead towards non-existence.  If that's what life is all about, a struggle to survive, then indeed, there's something good about life, and life is ultimately good, and so the way we should act reflects faith in the existence of the result of that action.

I really wanted to leave this thread, but this brings me back against my best judgement.

"Fittest" here has little to do with something resembling "good" in the traditional or typical sense of value or virtue. What "fits" one environment will not fit another in virtue of nothing other than a myriad of causes and conditions we can only begin to speculate about.

You're headed toward a tautology again, arguing that because life is, then it must be good, because life is. It fits into some bad form of the ontological argument.

I don't think you are very clear about all this, which is not a problem, it is your incorrect certainty which is.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,224


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2010, 06:37:06 PM »

I really wanted to leave this thread, but this brings me back against my best judgement.

Please don't.  I'd like to learn from you in this discussion if anything.  I didn't mean to challenge you in the manner I did, but if I'm left hanging, how else am I going to learn?

Quote
"Fittest" here has little to do with something resembling "good" in the traditional or typical sense of value or virtue. What "fits" one environment will not fit another in virtue of nothing other than a myriad of causes and conditions we can only begin to speculate about.

My argument simply is that if nature demands that we live it, it's good.  Whatever the cause or condition, humanity seemed to have found a way to try to change the cause or condition for the betterment of humanity.

Quote
You're headed toward a tautology again, arguing that because life is, then it must be good, because life is. It fits into some bad form of the ontological argument.

Forgive me for the use of tautology.  However, since this is something innate in all of us, that we are born into this life anyway, and that we are born to strive to live it, I also argue that those who dismiss life as having no label to it miss the point of life or redefine life into nothing but.

Quote
I don't think you are very clear about all this, which is not a problem, it is your incorrect certainty which is.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

Touche.

My point is this.  If there is are reasons why we shouldn't help or heal or treat the problems of this world, then life truly and ultimately is a mere "is".

But bigger than that, it is also a reason why I'm a believer, why I'm a theist, ultimately.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 06:45:04 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,239



« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2010, 07:46:27 PM »

Well, then, if life just is, there's no point in research and development for the betterment of human life.  Scientists have faith that life should be good, and they have faith in the goodness of life.  If life will always be just is, then there is no point in our research.

I think GiC and a couple others on the thread (myself included) are saying that life cannot inherently or intrinsically be considered good or bad. However, life can be good or bad based on a subjective evaluation, and we can create value and purpose (or goodness) in our lives. So when people help make things better for humans, they are doing a good thing, but this is only good in the subjective and created sense, rather than a universal/eternal and intrinsic sense.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.163 seconds with 65 queries.