Author Topic: Reject the West?  (Read 12418 times)

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Offline mike

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2010, 04:16:27 PM »

This is too humorous, this bricolage is exceptional. I have never linked the Sack of Constantinople with the Polish Radical Nationalist Camp(ONR)! Please tell me what similarities exist between the ONR and the Sack of Constantinople! 

Both are connected to Roman Catholics who use their faith as a tool to physically abuse the others.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2010, 04:22:41 PM »

This is too humorous, this bricolage is exceptional. I have never linked the Sack of Constantinople with the Polish Radical Nationalist Camp(ONR)! Please tell me what similarities exist between the ONR and the Sack of Constantinople! 

Both are connected to Roman Catholics who use their faith as a tool to physically abuse the others.
You mean the way the Byzantines massacred the Latins in Constantinople? Oh, wait, I forgot that then EOs kill Catholics it's a higher quality of bloodshed.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline mike

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2010, 04:25:29 PM »
You mean the way the Byzantines massacred the Latins in Constantinople? Oh, wait, I forgot that then EOs kill Catholics it's a higher quality of bloodshed.

No. I meant that synLeszka in his selective understanding of history thinks that all Roman Catholics were always pure and rightful. I've proved he is wrong.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 04:26:16 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2010, 06:10:18 PM »
You mean the way the Byzantines massacred the Latins in Constantinople? Oh, wait, I forgot that then EOs kill Catholics it's a higher quality of bloodshed.

No. I meant that synLeszka in his selective understanding of history thinks that all Roman Catholics were always pure and rightful. I've proved he is wrong.

All that is being proven with this line of back-talk is that we are all perfectly capable of keeping the hate alive and well.

M.

Offline synLeszka

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2010, 11:44:06 AM »
You mean the way the Byzantines massacred the Latins in Constantinople? Oh, wait, I forgot that then EOs kill Catholics it's a higher quality of bloodshed.

No. I meant that synLeszka in his selective understanding of history thinks that all Roman Catholics were always pure and rightful. I've proved he is wrong.
I am not one to judge. You have not proved yourself. My pictures served to elucidate an idea. Your pictures are supposedly an idea. Write yourself, a tract on the sinfulness of the Roman Catholics.
(I do not belong to any political organisation, I research all of the non-mainstream movements which act in Poland, be they left or right. )
Anyways, the ONR cooperates with many Russian Traditionalist Monarchists. The ideas which the ONR stands for are more popular in Russia and Belarus than they are in Poland. Except for the radical traditionalist political movement, the Christian element is scapegoated while the larger group of pagan traditionalists escape the media lens. Journalists foam over these examples of "Christian fascism", while the fail to acknowledge that the majority of these radical traditionalist movements are composed primarily of neopagans. 
To this date, I have not seen any declaration by the Catholic episcopate promoting the ONR. This is a long topic, I could talk about it long but it has nothing to do with the thread.

Thank you for diverting the discussion from the topic of the day, because the thread was on rejecting the West not on the sins of Roman Catholics. 

Back to topic:
This thread was established to ask the question whether someone becoming Orthodox must reject the patrimony of Occidental civilisation. One has to delineate what it means to be Western. If we reduce it to <<accepting technologies created in the West>>, then everyone will agree that to this we can all agree that we should accept being Western. This debate is funny in a way, because it is very academic. This reminds of the various ways we can describe our ideas and their emanations. For one man, the idea that the Western Civilisation is entirely Greek, is acceptable. Another man then writes that our Western Civilisation is Irano-Judaeic. Then another writes, that our civilisation is Irano-Judeo-Christian. Another, Romano-Greek-Christian. So who is right?
I do not know.

Generally, I do not know of how Orthodoxy responds to Western ideas. I have never heard of Orthodox battling Marxist philosophy, Orthodox encyclicals on the structure of society, an Orthodox reaffirmation of the right of private property. Do Orthodox even accept freedom of speech?? freedom of assembly? freedom of trade?
Before 1917, propagating all these freedoms were reason for excommunication from the Orthodox Church. It's 2010, and the Orthodox churches still haven't come to grips with reality.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2010, 01:26:05 PM »
Generally, I do not know of how Orthodoxy responds to Western ideas. I have never heard of Orthodox battling Marxist philosophy,

Your ignorance it is not proof of non-existence.

Quote
Orthodox encyclicals on the structure of society, an Orthodox reaffirmation of the right of private property. Do Orthodox even accept freedom of speech?? freedom of assembly? freedom of trade?

It's true, we have not been infected wholesale by the soul-destroying, anti-Christian ideology of the "Enlightenment", the same ideology that has made the RCC a shadow of itself. And we are the better for it.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2010, 02:41:00 PM »
I have been really appreciative of the Moscow Patriarchate's overtures to the Holy See about presenting a united front in the effort to remind Europe of its heritage, including its Western heritage. The MP seems not to be afraid to confront and engage postmodern culture. I look forward to seeing this partnership develop between Rome and Moscow.

This may be a bit too much for this particular thread on the Convert Issues forum, but, since you mentioned postmodern culture... I don't see much need, honestly, to "engage" it because it is just what it is, a step, a phase, etc., in the development of the human culture. There is no harm in it - at least no more harm than in any other step or phase of the human culture. I don't know whether I express myself clearly, but I'll just illustrate. There was a time of sweet, pink, sentimental, completely unrealistic family-love-marriage-feelgood Hollywood melodramas, the time of Gene Kelly and Audrey Hepburn and what not. This stage or phase or whatever in the art of cinematorgraphy NECESSARILY begot Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rodriquez and Lars von Trier. It's just an intrinsic law that governs the development of culture. As for the Moscow Patriarchate, again, this might be beyond the scope of this forum and actually belong to Politics, but... I just do not believe at all in any sincerity from this organization. They are politicking as always, playing their well-played Occidentophobia card.
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Offline synLeszka

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2010, 03:12:40 PM »

Quote
Orthodox encyclicals on the structure of society, an Orthodox reaffirmation of the right of private property. Do Orthodox even accept freedom of speech?? freedom of assembly? freedom of trade?

It's true, we have not been infected wholesale by the soul-destroying, anti-Christian ideology of the "Enlightenment", the same ideology that has made the RCC a shadow of itself. And we are the better for it.
Heorhij and others disagree with you.  Read this thread.
A shadow?
 Read your own statement. It is infected with the spirit of the Enlightenment and its derivatives.
1. "wholesale" 2."ideology" 3."shadow of itself" All of these terms are modern creations.
You are even ahead of many people in that you already operate using post-modern terminology "shadow of itself".
Forgive me but as much as you can talk about your vain highness, you use terms which would excommunicate you from the Church of the past. "Wholesale" In the past, it was accepted that only Jews and Muslims carry out trade. The Christian was better because he did not participate in trade or science, keeping to his plot of land, "ideology" a laicised religion, a religion substitute, heresy
"shadow of itself" postmodernist juxtaposition of narratives, the current apostasy of nations...
Anyways you do not have to be blind that the Orthodox states have accepted the Enlightenment in its socialist form?
______________________________________________________________

Do you seem to forget that in the Orthodox world, people talk about democracy, capitalism, justice, et cetera, yet the Orthodox Church does not confront these issues but seems to think that reprinting catechisms from the 1800's will restore the Russian soul?
Quote
Archbishop Hilarion
The Orthodox Church should play a key role in this spiritual rebirth. But this can happen only after it has become a truly national Church: not the Church of the State (whatever the State is), but the Church,
of the nation, of the people. To become such, the Church must come out of its shell, must learn to speak the language that the people speak, must face the demands of society and answer them adequately.

At the present time our Church is struggling to find its new identity in post-Communist and post-atheist Russia. There are, it seems to me, two main dangers. The first is that of a return to the pre-revolutionary situation,when there was a State Church which became less and less the Church of the nation. If, at some stage in the development of society, such a role would be offered to the Church by the State, it would be a huge mistake to accept, it. In this case the Church will be again rejected by the majority of the nation, as it was rejected in 1917. The seventy years of Soviet persecution were an experience of fiery purgatory for the Russian Church, from which it should have come out entirely renewed. The most dangerous error would be not to learn from what happened and to return to the pre-revolutionary situation, as some members of the clergy wish to do nowadays.

The second danger is that of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture,against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church. This kind of Orthodoxy, especially if it gains the support of the
State, may force Russian atheism to withdraw temporarily to the catacombs. But Russian atheism, will not. he vanquished until the transfiguration of the soul and the need to live according to the Gospel have become the only message of the Russian Orthodox Church.
source: http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_8
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 03:14:21 PM by synLeszka »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2010, 04:10:25 PM »
You mean the way the Byzantines massacred the Latins in Constantinople? Oh, wait, I forgot that then EOs kill Catholics it's a higher quality of bloodshed.

No. I meant that synLeszka in his selective understanding of history thinks that all Roman Catholics were always pure and rightful. I've proved he is wrong.
I am not one to judge.
ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL....ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL..ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL....ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...
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You have not proved yourself.
Yes, he has.
Quote
My pictures served to elucidate an idea.
Does a figment of the imagination count as an idea? I guess so.
Quote
Your pictures are supposedly an idea.
No, they are a portrayal of fact.
Quote
Write yourself, a tract on the sinfulness of the Roman Catholics.
Your magisterium has already done so.
http://www.legionofmarytidewater.com/faith/ECUM12.HTM
look in particular at canon 5.
and let's not forget the follow up
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html
Quote
(I do not belong to any political organisation, I research all of the non-mainstream
Defined by you?
Quote
movements which act in Poland, be they left or right. )
Anyways, the ONR cooperates with many Russian Traditionalist Monarchists. The ideas which the ONR stands for are more popular in Russia and Belarus than they are in Poland. Except for the radical traditionalist political movement, the Christian element is scapegoated while the larger group of pagan traditionalists escape the media lens. Journalists foam over these examples of "Christian fascism", while the fail to acknowledge that the majority of these radical traditionalist movements are composed primarily of neopagans.  
To this date, I have not seen any declaration by the Catholic episcopate promoting the ONR. This is a long topic, I could talk about it long but it has nothing to do with the thread.
You brought it up casting the first stone from your glass house.

Quote
Thank you for diverting the discussion from the topic of the day, because the thread was on rejecting the West not on the sins of Roman Catholics.
 
The sins of the Vatican are among what has to be rejected from the West.

Quote
Back to topic:
This thread was established to ask the question whether someone becoming Orthodox must reject the patrimony of Occidental civilisation. One has to delineate what it means to be Western. If we reduce it to <<accepting technologies created in the West>>, then everyone will agree that to this we can all agree that we should accept being Western.

Then we can't deny the atomic bomb to North Korea and Iran, since they just want to be "Western."

Quote
This debate is funny in a way, because it is very academic. This reminds of the various ways we can describe our ideas and their emanations. For one man, the idea that the Western Civilisation is entirely Greek, is acceptable. Another man then writes that our Western Civilisation is Irano-Judaeic. Then another writes, that our civilisation is Irano-Judeo-Christian. Another, Romano-Greek-Christian. So who is right?
I do not know.
and it shows.
Quote
Generally, I do not know of how Orthodoxy responds to Western ideas.

This way, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelev
Quote
I have never heard of Orthodox battling Marxist philosophy,
Just peruse the literature put out by ROCOR. If you have never heard of it, you should get your fingers out of your ears.
Quote
Orthodox encyclicals on the structure of society, an Orthodox reaffirmation of the right of private property. Do Orthodox even accept freedom of speech?? freedom of assembly? freedom of trade?

I get the impression that you have never read anything put out by the Orthodox Church. You can start here:
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx
Quote
Before 1917, propagating all these freedoms were reason for excommunication from the Orthodox Church.
would you care to give any clarification or proof of that?
 
Quote
It's 2010, and the Orthodox churches still haven't come to grips with reality.
It's obvious the Orthodox Churches aren't the one who needs to get a grip.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 04:16:13 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2010, 04:33:54 PM »

Quote
Orthodox encyclicals on the structure of society, an Orthodox reaffirmation of the right of private property. Do Orthodox even accept freedom of speech?? freedom of assembly? freedom of trade?

It's true, we have not been infected wholesale by the soul-destroying, anti-Christian ideology of the "Enlightenment", the same ideology that has made the RCC a shadow of itself. And we are the better for it.
Heorhij and others disagree with you.
Heorhij disagrees with you on Bandera. Why don't you settle that disagreement between yourselves?

Quote
 Read this thread.
A shadow?
 Read your own statement. It is infected with the spirit of the Enlightenment and its derivatives.
1. "wholesale" 2."ideology" 3."shadow of itself" All of these terms are modern creations.
You are even ahead of many people in that you already operate using post-modern terminology "shadow of itself".
Forgive me but as much as you can talk about your vain highness, you use terms which would excommunicate you from the Church of the past. "Wholesale" In the past, it was accepted that only Jews and Muslims carry out trade. The Christian was better because he did not participate in trade or science, keeping to his plot of land, "ideology" a laicised religion, a religion substitute, heresy
"shadow of itself" postmodernist juxtaposition of narratives, the current apostasy of nations...
Can you make a reasoned argument with evidence for any of the above nonsense?

Quote
Anyways you do not have to be blind that the Orthodox states have accepted the Enlightenment in its socialist form?

Let's see if PASOK keeps its majority.

______________________________________________________________

Quote
Do you seem to forget that in the Orthodox world, people talk about democracy, capitalism, justice, et cetera, yet the Orthodox Church does not confront these issues but seems to think that reprinting catechisms from the 1800's will restore the Russian soul?
Woud they be better served with catechism based on Liberation theology and Call to Action for "social justice"?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline synLeszka

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2010, 05:08:00 PM »
I dissected his thought. Just because it turns out to be disgusting is not my fault. Simple psychoanalysis. I am shocked that a scientist does not know anything about the deconstruction of constructions, so as to return to the base, the myth which underlies the reality. You, like all zealots, claim to operate exclusively in facts and reason/ratio. The truth is that you fail to realise the complexity of humanity, and make God into your precious voodoo doll, into which you project your desires. You are trying to prove the unprovable. God does not need little ants, slaves who carry out his will. He needs people who have free will and acknowledge their humility before God. He demands charity, work, not asinine fights as to tit or tat. You fail to acknowledge that your beliefs are myths of revolutions, hatred, and evil that they stand against the myth-narrative of Creation,Incarnation,Crucifixion and Resurrection, Ascension, Pentecost, in which light is victorious against the darkness. You fail to recognise the light of the world! Deo de domine, lumen de lumine

Stone the philosopher, stone him, he causes us to think! !gasp! revolution! condemn the heretic, condemn the one who laughs, who jokes, condemn the philosopher.. translate that into all the languages you know...
Quote
A shadow?
 Read your own statement. It is infected with the spirit of the Enlightenment and its derivatives.
Me:1. "wholesale" 2."ideology" 3."shadow of itself" All of these terms are modern creations.
You are even ahead of many people in that you already operate using post-modern terminology "shadow of itself".
Forgive me but as much as you can talk about your vain highness, you use terms which would excommunicate you from the Church of the past. "Wholesale" In the past, it was accepted that only Jews and Muslims carry out trade. The Christian was better because he did not participate in trade or science, keeping to his plot of land, "ideology" a laicised religion, a religion substitute, heresy
"shadow of itself" postmodernist juxtaposition of narratives, the current apostasy of nations...
Jesus:Can you make a reasoned argument with evidence for any of the above nonsense?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2010, 05:23:44 PM »
I dissected his thought. Just because it turns out to be disgusting is not my fault. Simple psychoanalysis. I am shocked that a scientist does not know anything about the deconstruction of constructions, so as to return to the base, the myth which underlies the reality. You, like all zealots, claim to operate exclusively in facts and reason/ratio. The truth is that you fail to realise the complexity of humanity, and make God into your precious voodoo doll, into which you project your desires. You are trying to prove the unprovable. God does not need little ants, slaves who carry out his will. He needs people who have free will and acknowledge their humility before God. He demands charity, work, not asinine fights as to tit or tat. You fail to acknowledge that your beliefs are myths of revolutions, hatred, and evil that they stand against the myth-narrative of Creation,Incarnation,Crucifixion and Resurrection, Ascension, Pentecost, in which light is victorious against the darkness. You fail to recognise the light of the world! Deo de domine, lumen de lumine

Stone the philosopher, stone him, he causes us to think! !gasp! revolution! condemn the heretic, condemn the one who laughs, who jokes, condemn the philosopher.. translate that into all the languages you know...
Quote
A shadow?
 Read your own statement. It is infected with the spirit of the Enlightenment and its derivatives.
Me:1. "wholesale" 2."ideology" 3."shadow of itself" All of these terms are modern creations.
You are even ahead of many people in that you already operate using post-modern terminology "shadow of itself".
Forgive me but as much as you can talk about your vain highness, you use terms which would excommunicate you from the Church of the past. "Wholesale" In the past, it was accepted that only Jews and Muslims carry out trade. The Christian was better because he did not participate in trade or science, keeping to his plot of land, "ideology" a laicised religion, a religion substitute, heresy
"shadow of itself" postmodernist juxtaposition of narratives, the current apostasy of nations...
Jesus:Can you make a reasoned argument with evidence for any of the above nonsense?

Incoherent is not cryptically wise, so I repeat: Can you make a reasoned argument with evidence for any of the above nonsense?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2010, 05:35:09 PM »
I think he's attempting to channel Foucault or Derrida but I'm getting more Marx... Groucho that is. 
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2010, 03:02:04 AM »
Is converting to Orthodoxy a rejection of the West in it's entirety?

No, I don't think it has to be, though it can involve that.

That is, there is nothing culturally or spiritually good to come out of the West.

IMO, I think either notion would be erroneous. The idea that any form of doctrinal or spiritual truth can only arise from the Orthodox Church is not one I subscribe to.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2010, 03:12:51 AM »
but examples are a rejection of western art/iconography.

What do you make of the revival of Romanesque iconography among the WRO?

Western art can be rejected because of reflecting erroneous theology or insufficient degree of theology (the humanizing of religious art in the Renaissance, for instance). But to reject it entirely, on some Orientalist principle, is incorrect, I think.

And while I can't expect the Orthodox to accept non-O saints,

Sure it is not appropriate for us to give them the veneration due the Orthodox Saints. But I think there is even some degree of honor that could be given post-schism figures who, in their context, took the side of Gospel principle.

I haven't seen much praise towards western individuals or pre-schism saints of the west.

*shrugs*

It really varies. Historically there was not much focus on Western saints. But there is some legitimate reasoning for this. Saints of the culture of the Orthodox were easier to connect with. Now that there are more Western converts to Orthodoxy, I believe that veneration of Western Saints is increasing.

I suppose, I don't like thinking that nothing good came from my side of the schism.

Well don't. I think that there was plenty of good that has issued forth from post-schism Western Christianity.

However, your phrasing betrays that you are not thinking of this quite correctly. If you were to really convert to Orthodoxy, what you are referring to would not be your side of the schism anymore.

I'm curious.

"Never, never never, let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be Eastern. The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable Liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."

(Of course as an Anti-Chalcedonian I don't endorse the 1,000 years bit, but there you have it.)

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2010, 03:18:30 AM »
I feel as though, if I make my leap to EO, I would need to give up western Christian art, statues, 3D crucifixes, latin chant, traditional western Christmas music.

I never quite understood an absolute rejection of three dimensional art, so I can't say that I think you would have to give up any of what you just listed.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2010, 03:20:49 AM »
I feel as though, if I make my leap to EO, I would need to give up western Christian art, statues, 3D crucifixes, latin chant, traditional western Christmas music.

Obviously, some of these are a stretch (I can enjoy the Christmas music outside of the DL). But, at the moment, I would still feel pressured to shun them as heretical western innovations. However, I do not find them heretical, in fact, I find they can help connect me culturally to my faith. Something that may be irrelevant to some, but I find necessary for a full connection.
I don't see that you need to give those things up entirely. You can still enjoy them as art and culture, just as you enjoy other expressions. But you will find that they no longer have a place in your worship.

Why couldn't they retain a place in his individual worship (or corporate, for that matter, if he were able to find a Western rite congregation)?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2010, 03:29:08 AM »
Do you agree with Staszko that it is better to compact with the Muslims than to dialogue with the Roman Catholics?
Well, we believe in the Trinity, we venerate the Mother of God, ever-Virgin, we believe in the importance of the liturgy, yet we are worse than Muslims. This is more of the slave mentality of which I wrote above.
Orthodox ideologist: We hate Catholics, because they do not whip us into submission, they are idiots because they do not murder us, but the Muslims are good because they whip us and we must fear them but badmouth them we must, this is equality.

You have totally misunderstood the meaning and context of that common quotation.

The meaning is that it would be better to be forced to be ruled (politically) by Muslims than to be united with Romanists (religiously) while they are still in heresy.

Offline synLeszka

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Re: Reject the West?
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2010, 05:24:05 PM »
Do you agree with Staszko that it is better to compact with the Muslims than to dialogue with the Roman Catholics?
Well, we believe in the Trinity, we venerate the Mother of God, ever-Virgin, we believe in the importance of the liturgy, yet we are worse than Muslims. This is more of the slave mentality of which I wrote above.
Orthodox ideologist: We hate Catholics, because they do not whip us into submission, they are idiots because they do not murder us, but the Muslims are good because they whip us and we must fear them but badmouth them we must, this is equality.

You have totally misunderstood the meaning and context of that common quotation.

The meaning is that it would be better to be forced to be ruled (politically) by Muslims than to be united with Romanists (religiously) while they are still in heresy.
For Muslims, politics and religion are one and the same. For Catholics, the state is separate from religion. Ultimately in Islam you are forced to submission to the politico-religious creed, that Mohamed is the slave of Allah, and so consequently we must be also slaves of Allah, whose organ is the revolutionary umma, the imams and their interpretation of their God-Book. Coexistence with Islam is impossible, it eventually destroys you.