Author Topic: Problems with the faith  (Read 10716 times)

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Offline TryingtoConvert

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Problems with the faith
« on: November 26, 2010, 11:40:48 PM »
Perhaps someone can enlighten me but unless you interpret the Bible literally, there is no validation to anything in the text. The Bible is supposed to be a historical relic, depicting various trials and tribulations of men and angels alike, and the possibilities of our foreseeable future. Unless we interpret this literally, all the Bible is are metaphors, memes and themes that were written in order to inspire and preach a certain moral code.

If I read that Moses heard the voice of God through a Burning Bush, I am not seeing that as an accurate testament to something that REALLY happened. I am seeing that as something symbolic and metaphoric. An allegory if you will. And THAT is where the argument comes from. You cannot argue half and half. You cannot take the middle road with the Bible. You cannot claim that some of it is metaphor, some of it is fact, some of it is this or that, because, honestly, who are you or who is anyone else on this planet to truly know how to interpret this book with any kind of accuracy? The only glimpse of an idea we have on how to read it, is in the book itself, which requires a literal interpretation.

It is all confusing and contradicting. Everything associated with religion in general only leads to a giant circular, never-ending argument.

In short, you cannot say the bible is as factually solid as 2+2=4, and then say, except for this that and the other thing.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 11:42:06 PM by TryingtoConvert »

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 11:45:00 PM »
Welcome to the forum!

You may want to read this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25459.0.html

The issue of allegory in the Old Testament was discussed there.  I found what Fr. Peter had to say to be particularly helpful.

Offline Ionnis

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 11:45:40 PM »
Welcome to the forum.  I pray that you find your time here illuminating.
"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2010, 11:48:08 PM »
Welcome!

You cannot claim that some of it is metaphor, some of it is fact, some of it is this or that, because, honestly, who are you or who is anyone else on this planet to truly know how to interpret this book with any kind of accuracy? The only glimpse of an idea we have on how to read it, is in the book itself, which requires a literal interpretation.
You can claim thus, because:

The Orthodox Church can truly know how to interpret this book with a kind of accuracy; that is one of the tenets of Orthodox faith. The Orthodox Church produced the New Testament itself, and has been interpreting the Old Testament for nearly 2000 years.

If you use the Bible as your sole, infallible (in the enlightenment sense) authority, you are not Orthodox. The Orthodox Church isn't Bible-Based. The Bible is Orthodox-based.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 11:49:14 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 12:08:27 AM »
Don't you claim the bible is the INFALLIBLE word of GOD. How is it then that it's contents are based on a MAN MADE institution, and not that institution based on it's content (The INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD)?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 12:11:36 AM »
Don't you claim the bible is the INFALLIBLE word of GOD. How is it then that it's contents are based on a MAN MADE institution, and not that institution based on it's content (The INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD)?
This forum discusses Orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christianity is not the same as "bible-based" Evangelical Christianity, and is distinct from all Protestant Christianity and Roman Catholic Christianity.

You seem to be applying Protestant doctrines to Orthodox Christianity. The Orthodox Church was founded by the Only-Begotten Pre-existent Word and Son of God Jesus Christ, 2000 years ago. It is not a man-made institution in the eyes of those who believe her. The Orthodox do not have the many "Infallible Word of God" innovated doctrines that many protestants have.

Doctrines like "sola scriptura" appeared during the Reformation and doctrines like "biblical infallibility" appeared as a reaction to the Enlightenment; they are less than 700 years old.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 12:15:47 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
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Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 12:18:19 AM »
But It does not follow that the word of god would be IMPERFECT, if your God IS PERFECT right? It does not that your PERFECT GOD would divinely inspire MORTAL MEN to be his AUTHORS, his biographers, if you will, and they get it WRONG, producing an IMPERFECT document

If your god is perfect, then it follows that his words are perfect. And if his words are perfect, and the bible is a collection of his words, then it follows that the bible is PERFECT.

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2010, 12:25:52 AM »
Perhaps someone can enlighten me but unless you interpret the Bible literally, there is no validation to anything in the text.

Have you plucked out your eye or cut off your hand lately?

Have you cut off something else to become a eunuch for the Kingdom of Heaven? :o

Quote
The Bible is supposed to be a historical relic, depicting various trials and tribulations of men and angels alike, and the possibilities of our foreseeable future. Unless we interpret this literally, all the Bible is are metaphors, memes and themes that were written in order to inspire and preach a certain moral code.

Why all literally or all metaphor?

If you go with the all literal line of thought, who do you do with Mark 4:34 "He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when He was alone with His own disciples, He explained everything."

Quote
If I read that Moses heard the voice of God through a Burning Bush, I am not seeing that as an accurate testament to something that REALLY happened. I am seeing that as something symbolic and metaphoric. An allegory if you will. And THAT is where the argument comes from. You cannot argue half and half. You cannot take the middle road with the Bible.

And what do you do when the Bible says it is speaking in metaphor, and when the Bible says it is giving an accurate testament?

Quote
You cannot claim that some of it is metaphor, some of it is fact, some of it is this or that, because, honestly, who are you or who is anyone else on this planet to truly know how to interpret this book with any kind of accuracy?

That's why you go to the Orthodox bishops who succeed the Apostles to whom Christ "explained everything."

Quote
The only glimpse of an idea we have on how to read it, is in the book itself, which requires a literal interpretation.

Then give us the literal interpretation of the parables.

Quote
It is all confusing and contradicting. Everything associated with religion in general only leads to a giant circular, never-ending argument.


Only to those who make it up as they go along.

Quote
In short, you cannot say the bible is as factually solid as 2+2=4, and then say, except for this that and the other thing.
Where does the Holy Bible say that?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2010, 12:28:07 AM »
Don't you claim the bible is the INFALLIBLE word of GOD. How is it then that it's contents are based on a MAN MADE institution,

Because the Son of Man build that instituion on the confession of Him being the Son of God.

Quote
and not that institution based on it's content (The INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD)?
Because God the Word based that institution on Himself. The Body of Christ thing.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2010, 12:30:28 AM »
But It does not follow that the word of god would be IMPERFECT, if your God IS PERFECT right? It does not that your PERFECT GOD would divinely inspire MORTAL MEN to be his AUTHORS, his biographers, if you will, and they get it WRONG, producing an IMPERFECT document

If your god is perfect, then it follows that his words are perfect. And if his words are perfect, and the bible is a collection of his words, then it follows that the bible is PERFECT.

Please stop using all caps, it gives the impression that you are yelling! ;)

First of all: The Word of God is Jesus Christ.

Here's a perspective: The Holy Spirit guided many men, and spoke by many prophets. These men wrote spiritual truths as the True Living God was gradually revealed to them, culminating in the full revelation of the Image of the Father, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit worked with the fallen and erroneous cosmologies and histories of these men to present them with these spiritual truths over a gradual period of time.

The Old Testament is not the what the Qu'ran claims to be; it was not written via dictation from an angel, nor did it fall out of heaven in a complete package. It was never designed nor intended to be an infallible history or science textbook.

Perhaps if you stop calling it "The Word of God" and start calling Jesus Christ "The Word of God" it will help de-condition you from the protestant influence you clearly bear. word of God is an acceptable title for the scriptures, however it has been warped in other christian groups and seems to be doing you more harm than good at the present moment.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 12:34:46 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2010, 12:32:51 AM »
But It does not follow that the word of god would be IMPERFECT, if your God IS PERFECT right?

God the Word is perfect.

Quote
It does not that your PERFECT GOD would divinely inspire MORTAL MEN to be his AUTHORS, his biographers, if you will, and they get it WRONG, producing an IMPERFECT document

Imperfection interpretation does not make the scriptures imperfect.  

Quote
If your god is perfect, then it follows that his words are perfect. And if his words are perfect, and the bible is a collection of his words, then it follows that the bible is PERFECT.

You are confused thinking it is God>Bible>Church.  It is God>Church>Bible.  That Church is still around:the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Orthodox Faith, the Body of Christ, with His divinely instituted authority vested in the bishops chosen to succeed his Apostles.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2010, 01:02:18 AM »
I apologize for using caps, I will try to italicisze of what I am emphasizing

You're playing at being dense to avoid a basic logic that is clear for anyone to see. Why would god, a perfect being allow the misinterpretation of his words?

You can not have it both ways. You both have stated, matter of factly, and based on the bible, that god exist. Period. This is an infallible truth. You then proceed to say the evidence upon which that belief exist, upon which your certainty lies, is not perfect. The "evidence", as it were, is imperfect.

That Your god, even with his divine inspiration, even with all of his "perfectness" still fell victim to "misinterpretation" because those men who he chose were themselves imperfect.

Are you listening to yourselves?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2010, 01:09:45 AM »
I apologize for using caps, I will try to italicisze of what I am emphasizing

You're playing at being dense to avoid a basic logic that is clear for anyone to see. Why would god, a perfect being allow the misinterpretation of his words?

You can not have it both ways. You both have stated, matter of factly, and based on the bible, that god exist. Period. This is an infallible truth. You then proceed to say the evidence upon which that belief exist, upon which your certainty lies, is not perfect. The "evidence", as it were, is imperfect.

That Your god, even with his divine inspiration, even with all of his "perfectness" still fell victim to "misinterpretation" because those men who he chose were themselves imperfect.

Are you listening to yourselves?
First of all, you come across as if you are desperate for something. I understand that theology can be frustrating, especially when one is at the end of one's rope searching for answers; it will help if you calm yourself and think through each point slowly.


You're playing at being dense to avoid a basic logic that is clear for anyone to see. Why would god, a perfect being allow the misinterpretation of his words?
Because God bestows free will upon mankind as an act of condescending love.

You can not have it both ways. You both have stated, matter of factly, and based on the bible, that god exist. Period. This is an infallible truth. You then proceed to say the evidence upon which that belief exist, upon which your certainty lies, is not perfect. The "evidence", as it were, is imperfect.
We are not basing God's existence on the bible.

And furthermore, the bible is correct when it is used for its created purpose. It is not useful when you, or Evangelicals, or anyone else, take the bible out of its proper context and use it as an infallible modernist prooftext for science or middle-eastern history.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 01:13:22 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2010, 01:23:47 AM »
Do you mind sharing your background with Christianity-- were you raised in a christian denomination, where do you get most of your information, etc?
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
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Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2010, 01:31:02 AM »
LOL, really? Desperate? You can save your subtle condescension. I'm not "looking" for answers. The answers, to my life, are found everyday in my friends, my family, my girlfriend, and my future with them. I don't need to look for answers in a fairy tell book.

No, what I find infuriating has nothing to do with any answers I'm "struggling" to find, but everything to do with the asininity of your position.

Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2010, 01:35:20 AM »
And that persons who hold similar positions, who also hold positions of power, have a DIRECT effect on my life and those around me.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2010, 01:35:39 AM »
LOL, really? Desperate? You can save your subtle condescension. I'm not "looking" for answers. The answers, to my life, are found everyday in my friends, my family, my girlfriend, and my future with them. I don't need to look for answers in a fairy tell book.

No, what I find infuriating has nothing to do with any answers I'm "struggling" to find, but everything to do with the asininity of your position.
I wasn't trying to be condescending. I only assumed that you were searching for something because your name is "Trying to Convert", and because you react with so much hostility to our posts.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
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Online ialmisry

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2010, 01:37:28 AM »
I apologize for using caps, I will try to italicisze of what I am emphasizing

You're playing at being dense to avoid a basic logic that is clear for anyone to see. Why would god, a perfect being allow the misinterpretation of his words?

Free will. If you want a divine puppet master, try the Calvinists.

Quote
You can not have it both ways. You both have stated, matter of factly, and based on the bible, that god exist. Period. This is an infallible truth. You then proceed to say the evidence upon which that belief exist, upon which your certainty lies, is not perfect. The "evidence", as it were, is imperfect.

The evidence is perfect. Your interpretation is wanting, however.

Quote
That Your god, even with his divine inspiration, even with all of his "perfectness" still fell victim to "misinterpretation" because those men who he chose were themselves imperfect.


Our God offered Himself as victim as the perfect sacrifice for man's misinterpretation.  If He only chose perfect men, He would be the only one He could chose.

Quote
Are you listening to yourselves?
You seem to be listening only to yourself.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online ialmisry

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2010, 01:40:20 AM »
LOL, really? Desperate? You can save your subtle condescension. I'm not "looking" for answers. The answers, to my life, are found everyday in my friends, my family, my girlfriend, and my future with them. I don't need to look for answers in a fairy tell book.

Then enjoy you life in your land of make believe.

Quote
No, what I find infuriating has nothing to do with any answers I'm "struggling" to find, but everything to do with the asininity of your position.
Listening to yourself, are you?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online ialmisry

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2010, 01:42:16 AM »
And that persons who hold similar positions, who also hold positions of power, have a DIRECT effect on my life and those around me.

Oooh! Positions of power!  Would it be the Ice King?

http://adventuretimewithfinnandjake.wikia.com/wiki/Ice_King
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 01:44:32 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2010, 01:48:19 AM »
Religion: The anti-logic.

If God is so perfect, why did he create confusion in the text he divinely inspired?

There are a million different interpretations of the Bible. There are a million different religions and a million more Bibles and a million more interpretations of each of those Bibles.

Is he playing games with people?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2010, 01:55:11 AM »
Religion: The anti-logic.

If God is so perfect, why did he create confusion in the text he divinely inspired?

There are a million different interpretations of the Bible. There are a million different religions and a million more Bibles and a million more interpretations of each of those Bibles.

Is he playing games with people?
Sir, are you trying to convert to Orthodox Christianity?
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2010, 01:56:47 AM »
Religion: The anti-logic.

If God is so perfect, why did he create confusion in the text he divinely inspired?

There are a million different interpretations of the Bible. There are a million different religions and a million more Bibles and a million more interpretations of each of those Bibles.

Is he playing games with people?
God didn't create the confusion. Man created the confusion. You fail to understand the role that Free Will plays in Orthodox Christianity because you are currently attacking a strawman.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 01:57:13 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2010, 01:59:39 AM »
You're playing at being dense to avoid a basic logic that is clear for anyone to see. Why would god, a perfect being allow the misinterpretation of his words?  You can not have it both ways. You both have stated, matter of factly, and based on the bible, that god exist. Period. This is an infallible truth. You then proceed to say the evidence upon which that belief exist, upon which your certainty lies, is not perfect. The "evidence", as it were, is imperfect.  That Your god, even with his divine inspiration, even with all of his "perfectness" still fell victim to "misinterpretation" because those men who he chose were themselves imperfect. Are you listening to yourselves?

"God" starts with a capital G.   Scripture is polyveilant and multidenotative. 

Offline Father H

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2010, 02:01:44 AM »
Religion: The anti-logic.
If God is so perfect, why did he create confusion in the text he divinely inspired?
There are a million different interpretations of the Bible. There are a million different religions and a million more Bibles and a million more interpretations of each of those Bibles.
Is he playing games with people?
Sir, are you trying to convert to Orthodox Christianity?

No, he is not trying to convert himself.  He is trying to convert the rest of us to his form of "true thinking."  Thus the "trying to convert" is "trying to convert the people of this forum" to his mode of thinking.   

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2010, 02:02:31 AM »
Religion: The anti-logic.
If God is so perfect, why did he create confusion in the text he divinely inspired?
There are a million different interpretations of the Bible. There are a million different religions and a million more Bibles and a million more interpretations of each of those Bibles.
Is he playing games with people?
Sir, are you trying to convert to Orthodox Christianity?

No, he is not trying to convert himself.  He is trying to convert the rest of us to his form of "true thinking."  Thus the "trying to convert" is "trying to convert the people of this forum" to his mode of thinking.  
I don't think that's the impression he's trying to give. He put "seeker" in his faith field. He at least wanted this trolljob to start on false pretenses.

I recommend he trolls boards that speak his first language from now on, as his arguments may be more convincing if he understood the rebuttals of his forced-into-a-debate opponents.

What say you, Antitheist Alfred?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 02:04:17 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2010, 02:03:47 AM »
I do want to believe in a 'God' or a higher transcendent being. I know about the baptist, lutheran, episcopal, etc faiths. All of that brought me here, I merely want to believe but there are obstacles that I have trouble accepting in.

Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2010, 02:04:32 AM »
God created something men could not understand.

He does not sound so perfect to me.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2010, 02:05:00 AM »
I do want to believe in a 'God' or a higher transcendent being. I know about the baptist, lutheran, episcopal, etc faiths. All of that brought me here, I merely want to believe but there are obstacles that I have trouble accepting in.
Forgive us for misjudging you, then, sir, but you are debating in a very hostile manner and we did not even know that this was going to be a debate.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2010, 02:06:26 AM »
God created something men could not understand.

He does not sound so perfect to me.
God gave men a Church to help men understand the text he inspired. Then men, of their own free will, chose to leave that Church. God loves man and gives him free will, so he allowed this to occur without forcing man to return to his Church.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2010, 02:08:52 AM »
I do want to believe in a 'God' or a higher transcendent being. I know about the baptist, lutheran, episcopal, etc faiths.
All of these faiths (with the possible exception of Episcopalians) use the bible as an infallible base.  The Orthodox Church uses the whole of Holy Tradition, including the Scriptures, as a base.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 02:09:36 AM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Online ialmisry

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2010, 02:14:47 AM »
Religion: The anti-logic.

Well, I guess Rome has spoken.

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If God is so perfect, why did he create confusion in the text he divinely inspired?

To seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Quote
There are a million different interpretations of the Bible. There are a million different religions and a million more Bibles and a million more interpretations of each of those Bibles.

And only one correct, i.e. Orthodox, one.

There are 6 billion + persons on the planet. If they all agreed that the sun rises in the West, or they all differed on it would matter none. The sun would still rise in the East, unencombered with personal opinions.

Quote
Is he playing games with people?
Only with those playing God.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online ialmisry

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2010, 02:17:26 AM »
I do want to believe in a 'God' or a higher transcendent being.

What for?

Quote
I know about the baptist, lutheran, episcopal, etc faiths.

Define "know."

Quote
All of that brought me here,

To do what?

Quote
I merely want to believe but there are obstacles that I have trouble accepting in.
How many of those obstacles are of your own erecting?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2010, 02:18:56 AM »
God gave men a church?

I think you got that backwards.

Offline Father H

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2010, 02:19:36 AM »
I do want to believe in a 'God' or a higher transcendent being. I know about the baptist, lutheran, episcopal, etc faiths. All of that brought me here, I merely want to believe but there are obstacles that I have trouble accepting in.
Forgive us for misjudging you, then, sir, but you are debating in a very hostile manner and we did not even know that this was going to be a debate.

There was no misjudging.   He did not even deny it when confronted.   I have encountered many atheists.  

Nice try "TryingtoConvert."   Hopefully you will get something out of it anyway.   Just don't be deceptive.   We have atheists here.  Just state who you are and where your coming from.   I know you are trying to prove that Orthodox are inept at converting people to theism.  But certainly this is possible without being deceptive, no?   Many of us here were born at night but it wasn't last night   ;)   

Offline antiderivative

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2010, 02:20:34 AM »
Perhaps someone can enlighten me but unless you interpret the Bible literally, there is no validation to anything in the text. The Bible is supposed to be a historical relic, depicting various trials and tribulations of men and angels alike, and the possibilities of our foreseeable future. Unless we interpret this literally, all the Bible is are metaphors, memes and themes that were written in order to inspire and preach a certain moral code.

If I read that Moses heard the voice of God through a Burning Bush, I am not seeing that as an accurate testament to something that REALLY happened. I am seeing that as something symbolic and metaphoric. An allegory if you will. And THAT is where the argument comes from. You cannot argue half and half. You cannot take the middle road with the Bible. You cannot claim that some of it is metaphor, some of it is fact, some of it is this or that, because, honestly, who are you or who is anyone else on this planet to truly know how to interpret this book with any kind of accuracy? The only glimpse of an idea we have on how to read it, is in the book itself, which requires a literal interpretation.

It is all confusing and contradicting. Everything associated with religion in general only leads to a giant circular, never-ending argument.

In short, you cannot say the bible is as factually solid as 2+2=4, and then say, except for this that and the other thing.
The Church dictates what is literal and what is metaphorical. The Bible was meant to be accompanied with an oral tradition, not speak for itself. Besides, you're treating the Bible as if it's one book, you're interpreting it way too black and white for something that is collection of books spanning 1000 years of differing authors. With this in mind, you would have to take the "middle road" approach to the Bible. It would be absurd otherwise. Compare something like the Book of Revelation to the Acts of the Apostles, and tell me there's no middle ground in interpreting one metaphorically and the other literally.

So who are we to dictate what parts of the Bible are metaphorical? Our claim is to be the church founded by Christ and the Apostles, and I believe history is on our side when it comes to this argument. Not only do we claim to interpret the Bible correctly, but the Orthodox Church claims to have written the Bible.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2010, 02:21:21 AM »
God gave men a church?

I think you got that backwards.
Why?

Jesus founded the Church before the New Testament was written.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline Father H

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2010, 02:22:47 AM »
God gave men a church?

I think you got that backwards.

Well, at least you are being honest now.   Yes, God gave men the Church, and the Church gives men God.  

Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2010, 02:24:33 AM »
So if the Church is a collection of interpreters how can they interprete what's literal and what's not? I just don't understand how they can be an authority on it? Where is the line drawn?

Online ialmisry

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2010, 02:25:07 AM »
God gave men a church?

I think you got that backwards.
I know you got that backwards.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Father H

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2010, 02:25:23 AM »
God gave men a church?

I think you got that backwards.
Why?

Jesus founded the Church before the New Testament was written.

Yes, but he would argue that the Church made Jesus God.  

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2010, 02:27:06 AM »
So if the Church is a collection of interpreters how can they interprete what's literal and what's not? I just don't understand how they can be an authority on it? Where is the line drawn?
Jesus Christ, whom we believe was God incarnate, taught his Apostles.

The apostles taught others, who then taught others, etc.

These "others", while having interpretational variants on non-doctrinal issues and understandings, have held to the same core doctrines throughout history.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline TryingtoConvert

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2010, 02:27:54 AM »
What JC taught the Apostles on what to interprete in the OT?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 02:28:46 AM by TryingtoConvert »

Online ialmisry

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2010, 02:28:38 AM »
So if the Church is a collection of interpreters

No, but it does have interpreters.

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how can they interprete what's literal and what's not?

They stand firm and hold fast the Traditions received of the Apostles.

Quote
I just don't understand how they can be an authority on it?

Because Christ says so. And makes it so.

Quote
Where is the line drawn?
Through the episcopal lines of the Orthodox bishops.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Problems with the faith
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2010, 02:28:51 AM »
God gave men a church?

I think you got that backwards.
Why?

Jesus founded the Church before the New Testament was written.

Yes, but he would argue that the Church made Jesus God.  
Yep!

This entire discussion is occurring on a juvenile level, I am merely giving basic responses.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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