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Author Topic: Vatican finds a problem with Kerry  (Read 7571 times) Average Rating: 0
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TomS
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« on: April 05, 2004, 12:05:20 PM »

Vatican finds a problem with Kerry
 

By Julian Coman
 
Washington: A battle in John Kerry's presidential election campaign may soon be fought at the altar rail, if senior traditionalists in the Roman Catholic Church get their way.

Priests and bishops across America are being urged by members to refuse Communion to the first Catholic to run for the presidency since John F. Kennedy.

The sanction would be imposed until Kerry abandoned his permissive views on abortion and other issues such as gay marriages.

The campaign, which has the explicit blessing of the Vatican, is gathering force and Kerry's aides have been forced to visit churches before allowing him to attend mass.

A Vatican official told Time: "People in Rome are becoming more and more aware that there's a problem with John Kerry and a potential scandal with his apparent profession of his Catholic faith and some of his stances, particularly abortion.''


http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/World2.asp?ArticleID=116999

http://www.religionreview.com/
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2004, 12:30:56 PM »

yet Ted Kennedy is still allowed to recieve communion on a regular basis.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2004, 01:10:12 PM »

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040405-125311-9075r.htm

   Easter is this coming Sunday and where Sen. John Kerry, the Democratic candidate for president, will attend church suddenly has become a political issue. If the Roman Catholic senator sticks to his home Boston Archdiocese, he faces the implied threat from Archbishop Sean O'Malley of being refused Communion.

    Archbishop O'Malley has said since the summer that pro-choice Catholic politicians are in a state of grave sin and cannot properly take Communion, though he mentioned neither Mr. Kerry nor Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, another Massachusetts Democrat.

    Two months ago, St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke said Mr. Kerry "must not present himself for Communion" at any church in the city. However, "I might give him a blessing or something," the archbishop added.

    Mr. Kerry was in St. Louis on March 28, but he sidestepped the Communion issue by attending New Northside Missionary Baptist Church, where he quoted a few verses from the second chapter of James.

    Yesterday, Mr. Kerry again worshipped at a Protestant congregation: Charles Street African Methodist Episcopal Church in Dorchester, Mass. "We're thankful that there's going to be a revolution in this country ... a new movement," the Rev. Gregory Groover saidfrom the pulpit during the Palm Sunday service. "And we say, God, bring him on, the next president of the United States."

    The Kerry campaign has declined comment on his faith and his Easter plans.

    Catholics are obligated to attend Mass on Sundays and all Holy Days, but they do not have to receive Communion. It is specifically recommended, however, that Catholics go to confession at least once during Lent, and failing Sunday obligation is a grave sin that makes one ineligible for Communion. "O'Malley has been quoted as saying if you are pro-abortion, you shouldn't go to Communion," said the Rev. John Putka, a political science professor at the University of Dayton in Ohio. "Kerry says he intends to go. All you need is one time where he is denied Communion and there's a national incident."

    Mr. Kerry's positions favoring human stem-cell research; the right to abortion, including partial-birth abortion; and civil unions between homosexuals are contrary to church teachings and have turned a vocal and active group of conservative Catholics against him.

    When news accounts showed the senator attending Mass during a recent Idaho ski trip, the American Life League (ALL) issued a news release pointing out that the senator had arrived late and had been dressed in a ski suit at Our Lady of the Snows parish in Sun Valley.

    In recent months, the senator has provided a few details about his Catholic past: service as an altar boy, wearing rosary beads during his Vietnam War service, one-time plans to become a priest. On Ash Wednesday, he emerged from a Catholic church with a smudge on his forehead signifying penance.  "People ask: 'Is he making up his beliefs to take the red states?' " said Timothy Thibodeau, a history professor at Nazareth College in Rochester, N.Y. "Kerry's problem is that people doubt his sincerity. They think he is cooking up his religion just in time to run for the election."

    Mr. Kerry has said he may be personally opposed to abortion as a Catholic but will not allow the church's positions to interfere with public policy, citing President Kennedy's 1960 statement to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association: "I am not the Catholic candidate for president. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for president who happens also to be a Catholic."

    But Mr. Kerry is not dealing with the church Mr. Kennedy knew.

    "When Kennedy ran for president, the Catholic Church hadn't yet had Vatican II," said Mr. Thibodeau, referring to the formative church council that met in Rome from 1962 to 1965. "John F. Kennedy grew up with a traditional Latin Mass Catholicism," he said. "By the early 1970s, when Kerry began the formative years of his political career, the church had radically changed. There was a drift by Catholic politicians from mainstream Catholic teaching."

    Mr. Thibodeau pointed out that the discrepancy between church teachings and Mr. Kerry's public stances is common today. "Kerry is in many respects symbolic of a great many Roman Catholics who are totally at odds with the church's teaching on many things. He is also divorced and remarried. So are a lot of Catholics."

    Mr. Kerry's marriage to Julia Thorne produced two children and ended in a civil divorce in the 1980s. He sought an annulment in 1997, two years after he married ketchup heiress Teresa Heinz. Mr. Kerry has said his "current marriage is in good graces with the church," but his campaign has declined repeated requests from several newspapers to show that the annulment was granted.

    A task force of Catholic bishops on how to deal with disobedient politicians, led by Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington, has yet to issue a set of promised guidelines. "This is all about the bishops and how they choose to respond and not respond," said Joe Starrs, director of ALL's Crusade for the Defense of Our Catholic Church. "If Cardinal McCarrick and Archbishop O'Malley don't do something, Senator John Kerry and all these other pro-abortion Catholic politicians will receive Communion and the rest of the faithful will think, 'Gee, it's OK to support abortion and euthanasia.' "

    Bishops have been denying Communion to politicians since A.D. 390, when Ambrose, the archbishop of Milan, excommunicated Roman Emperor Theodosius I for killing 7,000 unarmed Greeks during a tax rebellion.

    Theodosius had to endure a ceremony of public penance before Ambrose agreed to accept him back into the church.
    But that was then.

   "Ted Kennedy, in my mind, is the poster boy of the American Catholic at odds with the church," Mr. Thibodeau said. "Ted goes out of his way to be at odds with church on partial-birth abortion, gay marriage and all the hot-button issues the Vatican wants to discipline politicians on. "So, the Kerry people can say, 'Why are you picking on John Kerry when there are a host of Catholic politicians who are worse, but who are still receiving Communion?' The outrage seems to be selective."
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2004, 01:21:26 PM »

yet Ted Kennedy is still allowed to recieve communion on a regular basis.

Joe Zollars

The teachings are very clear on this issue. The vatican is not allowing ted kennedy to commun, it is the disobedient priests/bishops that are.
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2004, 12:48:19 AM »

they probably don't want to make angry the Catholic massachusetts voters who keep re-electing senator kennedy for some strange reason......
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2004, 08:32:47 AM »

"The teachings are very clear on this issue. The vatican is not allowing ted kennedy to commun, it is the disobedient priests/bishops that are."

Isn't it really more of an issue of pragmatics?  I mean, the Catholic Church has the rules it does, but the way that communion is given in the RC Church these days makes it impossible to enforce any of them, it is an honor system.  There are protestants who receive communion in Catholic Churches all the time, for example ... I remember seeing a few of them do so at a RC funeral a while back.
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2004, 02:02:49 PM »

Isn't it really more of an issue of pragmatics?  I mean, the Catholic Church has the rules it does, but the way that communion is given in the RC Church these days makes it impossible to enforce any of them, it is an honor system.  There are protestants who receive communion in Catholic Churches all the time, for example ... I remember seeing a few of them do so at a RC funeral a while back.

Heck even Bill Clinton went up and received communion at a Catholic Church several years back.   I thought he was a Baptist.

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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2004, 03:30:21 PM »

The teachings are very clear on this issue. The vatican is not allowing ted kennedy to commun, it is the disobedient priests/bishops that are.  

 Huh Why are disobedient priests and bishops being allowed to disobey canon law? If the bishops and priests are doing it, is it not encumbent upon the vatican to put a screeching halt to it? I know this isn't the Orthodox/Catholic debate forum, and I honestly don't mean to be rude or start a nasty debate, but I've often run into (on the web) Roman Catholics who deride the Orthodox Church for not having a central human authority like the pope.  Since it doesn't appear to actually work any better than the conciliar approach, that doesn't make sense to me.
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2004, 03:53:11 PM »

Dear Theodore:

If it is not much of a hassle, can you please post the website from where you took the picture showing Pres. Clinton receiving communion in a Catholic Church?

Amado
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2004, 03:53:42 PM »

Its obvious to me, that the Vatican has lost control her church and her hierarchy here in the United States.  I would also mention the same for some western European states (ie France and Belgium).  The Bishops who commune these politicians are commiting a grave sin of disobedience, a vow that each one of them took at their ordination.  They have an obligation to "put their money where their mouth is" and NOT give communion to any politician who espouses these anticatholic policies.  I would also hope that OUR hierarchy ALSO speak out to those "Orthodox" politicians who also are in league with Kerry and friends.

JoeS   :-";"xx
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2004, 04:58:52 PM »

Dear Theodore:

If it is not much of a hassle, can you please post the website from where you took the picture showing Pres. Clinton receiving communion in a Catholic Church?

Amado

It's from a nutty website to say the least.  
The Pope is a freemason ya know.    Roll Eyes        http://www.trosch.org/for/jp2-hell.htm

I did a google search under the images section and typed in "clinton communion"  and received quite a number of copies of this.  I remember reading in the media at the time (1998) about Clinton's going up and receiving communion while on a trip to South Africa, and I recall seeing a video clip of this on TV at the time on one of the news channels.
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2004, 05:07:10 PM »

Dear JoeS:

You posted:

Quote
Its obvious to me, that the Vatican has lost control her church and her hierarchy here in the United States.  I would also mention the same for some western European states (ie France and Belgium).

I doubt your assertion.  So far, no "independent'" or "schismatic" U.S. Catholic Church is in the making. Wink

As we speak, the Bishops of the Catholic Church in the U.S. are on their 5-yearly "ad limina" visit with the Vatican "exchanging pleasantries" with the Holy Father and the "bureaucrats" of the Roman Curia.

Sure, this topic will come out and will be discussed. The new Archbishop of Boston has his hands full, as far as Sen. Ted Kennedy and President-wanna-be Sen. Kerry are concerned. These 2 MA politicians are just a minority; there are far more Catholic politicians who are on the right.

Your caricature could only be a product of wishful thinking, unconsciously underestimating the strength and value of the the Holy See in relation to the USCCB , and to other national episcopal conferences of the worldwide Catholic Communion.

Amado
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2004, 12:26:15 AM »

It's a feel-good sop for traditionalists, but it isn't going to do the church any good.

The problem is that the archdiocese in Boston has destroyed its moral capital. Kerry is honest about disagreeing; they were not honest about their supervision. They aren't in a position to demand rectitude and not get puliverized in the press, not to mention by laypeople.

And this kind of "ciscipline" doesn't sit well in this country. It's exactly what has been a problem for nationwide Catholic candidates; they will put Kerry in a position where, to survive politically, he will have to defy them. And again, it will hurt church prestige.
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2004, 02:07:25 AM »

It's a feel-good sop for traditionalists, but it isn't going to do the church any good.

The problem is that the archdiocese in Boston has destroyed its moral capital. Kerry is honest about disagreeing; they were not honest about their supervision. They aren't in a position to demand rectitude and not get puliverized in the press, not to mention by laypeople.

And this kind of "ciscipline" doesn't sit well in this country. It's exactly what has been a problem for nationwide Catholic candidates; they will put Kerry in a position where, to survive politically, he will have to defy them. And again, it will hurt church prestige.


Sad, but I think you have a strong point.
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2004, 08:03:39 AM »

It's a feel-good sop for traditionalists, but it isn't going to do the church any good.

The problem is that the archdiocese in Boston has destroyed its moral capital. Kerry is honest about disagreeing; they were not honest about their supervision. They aren't in a position to demand rectitude and not get puliverized in the press, not to mention by laypeople.

And this kind of "ciscipline" doesn't sit well in this country. It's exactly what has been a problem for nationwide Catholic candidates; they will put Kerry in a position where, to survive politically, he will have to defy them. And again, it will hurt church prestige.


This could very well be true.  Boston in particular seems to be an unlikely place for that kind of rebuke to be saleable in light of the recent scandals there.  But on a more directly related issue, isn't Boston also the Archdiocese that granted one of the younger Kennedys an anulment so that he could marry his secretary that he was having an affiar with before his divorce?

Brendan
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2004, 08:29:50 AM »

The Vatican, at least, has not been made Senator Kennedy  a Papal knight unlike  the Ecumenical Patriarchate which has made pro-abortion Senator Sarbanes an Archon.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2004, 09:11:04 AM »

The Vatican, at least, has not been made Senator Kennedy  a Papal knight unlike  the Ecumenical Patriarchate which has made pro-abortion Senator Sarbanes an Archon.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Gee, "Deacon" Lance, that was a constructive comment...trolling today, are we?

Demetri
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2004, 09:37:11 AM »

That's nothing...

How about the EP giving Fidel Castro an award for humanitarian aid??

And there are pictures to prove it.

Sorry, but that crosses the line.

Cap'n
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2004, 09:42:28 AM »

And thus we see the folly of those who believe that the Church is "infallible". When men are involved, it can never be so.
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2004, 09:51:21 AM »

With regard to withholding communion from church dissenters, the priest should not be put in the position of unilaterally enforcing church discipline.  My uncle is an RC priest, and he has faced the situation where people from Call to Action, a notoriously dissendent group within the RC Church, have come for communion.  He chooses to give them communion, lacking any mandate from the bishop, primarily because he cannot judge the interior disposition of these people.

This really is a matter for the bishops.  And it's not an easy call.  Where do you draw the line on "excessive" dissidence, given that a certain level of public disagreement, while hardly edifying and spiritually dangerous for the dissenter, is not grounds for excommunication?
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2004, 10:19:39 AM »

Demetri,

Why is it swipes at the Catholic Church are okay but if one points out a similar inconsistency of the Orthodox Church it is trolling?  I am simply trying to keep things balanced.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2004, 10:42:08 AM »

ProfundoQ,

Catholic priests do not need a bishop's mandate. Canon Law is clear:

Can. 915 Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion.

Pro-abortion politicians, members of Call to Action, Dignity, etc. all meet the definition as they publicly denounce the teachings of the Church.  Priests and deacons need to get some courage and conviction and follow the Church's teaching and law.  It has nothing to do with interior disposition.  They are doing them no favors by allowing them to commune as "...whoever, eats the the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily sins against the body and blood of the Lord (1 Cor 11:27 NAB).

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2004, 10:58:22 AM »

Deacon Lance,

If the people were excommunicated (which only a bishop can do), then the priest would be obligated to withhold communion, and it would take the judgement out of his hands.  This is what I meant by "a matter for the bishops".

The other criterion, "manifestly grave sin", is, shall we say, very elastic.  Is someone who votes consistenly pro-abortion committing a sin of significant gravity to merit excommunication, which is, after all, an exceedingly harsh measure?  Have they, by their voting, broken their communion with the Church so seriously?  Personally, I think what they do is miserable, especially if they claim some kind of Church sanction for their voting records.  However, it is less serious than someone who actually procures an abortion for a woman.

It should be noted that giving communion to someone does not constitute an endorsement of their beliefs and actions.
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2004, 12:02:09 PM »

"Is someone who votes consistenly pro-abortion committing a sin of significant gravity to merit excommunication, which is, after all, an exceedingly harsh measure?"

Yes.   The problem here is a priest or deacon is unlikely to know an average parishioners voting record.  It is a different matter with a declared politician or member of a group that dissents from the teaching of the Church, they are publicly persisting in manifest grave sin.  This is the reason divorced and remarried Catholics are denied Communion, a group which the Eastern Churches have historically treated in a more pastoral manner, readmitting them to communion after an exclusionf from Communion for a number of years, usually 3 to 5.  Priests are usually very strict with the remarried they should be the same with public dissenters and denouncers.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2004, 12:16:20 PM »

Demetri,

Why is it swipes at the Catholic Church are okay but if one points out a similar inconsistency of the Orthodox Church it is trolling?  I am simply trying to keep things balanced.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Quite simply, Deacon Lance, because your idea of 'balance' involves some kind of "moral equivalency" by attempting to excuse or deflect criticism by making the a similar charge against your detractors. This pre-supposes that we overlook the EP's actions, but condemn yours. That is not the case.
I personally do not know of any Orthodox, laity or clergy, who do not take issue with the EP's Cuban detente with Castro (at least until we know more about what is happening or why) and who does not decry such statements by the EP as "sister-churches" or "two-lungs" in reference to your church. Indeed, he knows our feelings well (mine to be sure).
That each church has problems does not excuse either.

Demetri


{Edited to clarify}
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2004, 12:34:32 PM »

Demetri,

"because your idea of 'balance' involves some kind of "moral equivalency" by attempting to excuse or deflect criticism by making the a similar charge against your detractors."

Not at all, I am simply pointing out the same problems exist in both Churches.  If Ted Kennedy is communed, it is an outrage and I stand by my statements above.  You are quite correct that neither Church is excused.  However, I think there is a difference bewteen a local priest communing a dissenting politician and the chief hierarch of Church awarding one an honor that marks him as an example for the faithful. From the Archon website:

"An Archon is an honoree by His All Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch, for his outstanding service to the Church, and a well-known distinguished, and well-respected leader of the Greek Orthodox Community (at large).

It is by the grace of God that the Archon has been able to offer his good works and deeds of faith. Further, it is the sworn oath of the Archon to defend and promote the Greek Orthodox faith and tradition. His special concern and interest is to serve as a bulwark to protect and promote the Holy Patriarchate and its mission. He is also concerned with the human race's inalienable rights wherever and whenever they are violated - and the well-being and general welfare of the Church.

This honor, extended by the Church, carries with it grave responsibilities, deep commitments, and sincere dedication. Consequently, it is of utmost importance that this honor of obligation be bestowed upon individuals of proven Orthodox Christian character, who conform faithfully to the teachings of Christ, and the doctrines, canons, worship, discipline, and encyclicals of the Church.

Furthermore, the honoree should have demonstrated to a greater than average degree his commitment toward the stewardship of time, talent, and treasure, for the betterment of the Church; Parish-Diocese; Archdiocese; and the community as a whole, and must truly be deserving of the proclamation - AXIOS."

http://archons.patriarchate.org/archon.htm

I do not wish to argue, however.  I apologize if my post came across as trolling.  Have a blessed Holy Thursday.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2004, 12:48:44 PM »

Then we 'mostly agree'. To me, an error is an error, priest's or patriarch's.

Demetri
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2004, 01:48:52 PM »

Dear Amado,

"could ONLY" you assume too much here. I was born and raised in the Philadelphia Archdiocees and the only thing I can report is what I see and hear from so-called staunch Roman Catholics throughtout my lifetime.

Have a most blessed Pascha!

JoeS

<<Your caricature [could only] be a product of wishful thinking, unconsciously underestimating the strength and value of the the Holy See in relation to the USCCB , and to other national episcopal conferences of the worldwide Catholic Communion.

Amado>>
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2004, 03:08:16 PM »

The answer for Christians in this country is fairly simple: don't vote for Kerry.

I won't.
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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2004, 05:48:26 PM »

The answer for Christians in this country is fairly simple: don't vote for Kerry.

I won't.

So you will vote for Bush, when it can be argued that he falls under a similar-- if more socially acceptable-- condemnation?

I detest many of Kerry's social positions. I also don't see that the choice between him and Bush on the basis of these specific issues amounts to much. And having read some of the history of Kerry's Vietnam involvement, I'd say that, in regards to battle, he has far more moral credibility than anyone in the Bush administration except-- maybe-- Colin Powell (and I think Powell has pretty much squandered his credibility). Abortion isn't going to be an issue-- war already is.
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2004, 03:15:31 AM »

Quote
I detest many of Kerry's social positions. I also don't see that the choice between him and Bush on the basis of these specific issues amounts to much. And having read some of the history of Kerry's Vietnam involvement, I'd say that, in regards to battle, he has far more moral credibility than anyone in the Bush administration except-- maybe-- Colin Powell (and I think Powell has pretty much squandered his credibility). Abortion isn't going to be an issue-- war already is.


I'm not sure about Kerry being more credible just because he's a veteran. Most veterans will vote against Kerry & there are even some veterans organizations & websites that are really against him due to his slander & lies he spread shortly after coming home from the war & his involvement with radical fringe left wing groups.

I think Kerry is just another left wing political hack that wants to push a secular agenda down our throats.  It's the same game the Dem's play every election cycle. They will all tell us again a million times that they are for a women's right to choose and that all republicans/conservatives are dividing this country even though they are the ones forcing change by thier hacks in the judiciary against the majority.

Even worse, while we are at war with the practitioners of the religion of peace  Wink it seems the only thing the Democrats are concerned about is kicking Bush out of office by all means neccesary and eating thier Gay wedding cake.

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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2004, 04:15:26 PM »

What is truly dividing this country is this kind of "my daddy can beat up your daddy" kind of political discourse as illustrated by statements like "liberalism is a mental disease."  As I wrote many times earlier, this simply is not the way rational people debate the issues.
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« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2004, 06:20:51 PM »

I'm not sure about Kerry being more credible just because he's a veteran. Most veterans will vote against Kerry & there are even some veterans organizations & websites that are really against him due to his slander & lies he spread shortly after coming home from the war & his involvement with radical fringe left wing groups.

Wel,l the veterans who actually know him-- the men who were under his command-- don't think like this.  If you want to really know something about Kerry's war experience, read this article from The Atlantic and the accompanying interview. Turn off the vague right-wing propaganda for a while.

And while we're on the subject of right-wing propaganda, I have no use for the notion that the Republicans are the party of morality. Be more cynical, and notice that the politicians are, in fact, politicians. For many of them, talking morality is just a means of collecting votes.

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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2004, 12:05:07 AM »

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What is truly dividing this country is this kind of "my daddy can beat up your daddy" kind of political discourse as illustrated by statements like "liberalism is a mental disease."  As I wrote many times earlier, this simply is not the way rational people debate the issues.
  :'( :'( :'( :'(


Sorry Jen, hate to burst your bubble. I happen to think that some liberals must be mentally ill to advocate such things as abortion on demand & other insane policies. Liberals always try to put themselves above God by trying to replace him with the functions of government.

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Wel,l the veterans who actually know him-- the men who were under his command-- don't think like this.  If you want to really know something about Kerry's war experience, read this article from The Atlantic and the accompanying interview. Turn off the vague right-wing propaganda for a while.

Sorry, no right wing propaganda on my part, just plain common sense. From what I've seen most veterans find Sen. Kerry's actions after veitnam dispacable. He was even present at a meeting that called for the assasination of some of our political leaders shortly after he returned from Nam. He spread many lies about the marines and "supposed" injustices against the vietnamese people by the marines, which ended up not being true. Senator Kerry is just another fake left wing empty suit politician, he has been on both sides of the fence on most issues. If he had true character, he would stand by what he beleives in instead of flip flopping.

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And while we're on the subject of right-wing propaganda, I have no use for the notion that the Republicans are the party of morality. Be more cynical, and notice that the politicians are, in fact, politicians. For many of them, talking morality is just a means of collecting votes.

I would say the republicans are for the most part the Party of morality because they take a traditional christian viewpoint on most of their policies compared to the secular agenda of the the democrats. What I find absolutely disgusting about the Dems is their hate for human life. They are so depraved that they even opposed the republicans along with a few fair minded democrats in trying to stop the Laci's & Conner Act (Fetus Protection Act). They can't even stand up for the rights of a women & her baby when they are murdered by another person. This bill barely got by the 61 votes needed in the senate to bypass a filibuster on it. I just think that any christian that would vote for the deviants in the democratic party is truely lost, or their heart is in the wrong place. The democrats aren't even open to the idea of having a pro - life caucus in thier party. This just shows you how intollerant most liberals really are against pro life christian values.
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2004, 11:04:42 AM »

  :'( :'( :'( :'(


Sorry Jen, hate to burst your bubble. I happen to think that some liberals must be mentally ill to advocate such things as abortion on demand & other insane policies.

Oh Nacho, I'm sure you really do indeed believe that.  But note what I wrote.  In my opinion (and remember the lesson I gave you about the difference between fact and opinion?) that's an irrational belief not based on a proper understanding of mental illness.  

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Liberals always try to put themselves above God by trying to replace him with the functions of government.

Here we go again...."liberals always..."  I mean, come on Nacho.  Can't you see how absurd a statement like this is?  Do you know all the liberals?  And do liberals (remember they are people) "always" do anything?  In the law we have something we call the 'red face test' meaning if you made that argument would you be laughed out of court.  "Liberals always..." does not pass the 'red face test.'  

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Sorry, no right wing propaganda on my part, just plain common sense.

You are so innundated with right-wing propaganda that you can no longer identify it.  Do you ever bother to seek out alternative news sources to Fox News and talk radio?  Do you read something other than books by Michael Savage?  Do you make an effort to educate yourself about the issues or just listen to talk radio tell you how to think?  I think the answer to all of these questions is no even though I doubt you're conscious enough of your brainwashing to realize it.  

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From what I've seen most veterans find Sen. Kerry's actions after veitnam dispacable.

At least now you are qualifying it with your own experience.  But again you do not know "most" veterans.  

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He was even present at a meeting that called for the assasination of some of our political leaders shortly after he returned from Nam. He spread many lies about the marines and "supposed" injustices against the vietnamese people by the marines, which ended up not being true.

It's already been documented that some of the charges leveled againsts Kerry by the Bush administration (for example the hundreds of tax increases) are lies so this could very well be a lie too.  

Regardless if I were a veteran of the Vietnam war and had to choose between someone who actually volunteered to fight and someone who used his daddy's connections to get into a cushy national guard position, I'd choose the guy who actually went.  

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Senator Kerry is just another fake left wing empty suit politician, he has been on both sides of the fence on most issues. If he had true character, he would stand by what he beleives in instead of flip flopping.

I don't think he has 'good' character.  I don't think President Bush has 'good' character.  I don't think most people in Washington have 'good' character.  They all flip-flop, they all lie.  

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I would say the republicans are for the most part the Party of morality because they take a traditional christian viewpoint on most of their policies compared to the secular agenda of the the democrats.


But what is the "traditional Christian viewpoint?"  What about welfare reform?  Or the invasion of Iraq?  Or the death penalty?  Many Christians believe very strongly that these are immoral.  

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What I find absolutely disgusting about the Dems is their hate for human life. They are so depraved that they even opposed the republicans along with a few fair minded democrats in trying to stop the Laci's & Conner Act (Fetus Protection Act). They can't even stand up for the rights of a women & her baby when they are murdered by another person. This bill barely got by the 61 votes needed in the senate to bypass a filibuster on it.

This demonstrates perfectly what I was referring to in my earlier post.  This kind political discourse is what is dividing this country.  You honestly believe that the democrats "hate" human life.  How patently absurd.  But you honestly believe it.  

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I just think that any christian that would vote for the deviants in the democratic party is truely lost, or their heart is in the wrong place. The democrats aren't even open to the idea of having a pro - life caucus in thier party. This just shows you how intollerant most liberals really are against pro life christian values.  

You are entitled to "just think" what you want.  You are also entitled to make a judgment about the state of someone's soul based on who they vote for.  It's silly and won't earn you the respect of mature Christians but as we always say 'it's a free country' so you're entitled to "just think" whatever you want.
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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2004, 12:09:14 PM »

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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2004, 08:39:20 AM »

Sorry, no right wing propaganda on my part, just plain common sense.

What you post here is not "common sense" by any standard. It is a fabric of allegations, all of which require substantiation.

I don't see much of this forthcoming.

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From what I've seen most veterans find Sen. Kerry's actions after veitnam dispacable.

I don't think you have standing to assert that. Furthermore, to be quite rude about it, the opinions of each Vietnam veteran are not created equal. Probably there are all too many of them who base their judgement on a single picture of Jane Fonda with Kerry in the background.

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He was even present at a meeting that called for the assasination of some of our political leaders shortly after he returned from Nam.

Was he? Who's your source?

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He spread many lies about the marines and "supposed" injustices against the vietnamese people by the marines, which ended up not being true.

Did he? Do you have a source for this one?

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Senator Kerry is just another fake left wing empty suit politician, he has been on both sides of the fence on most issues.

And George Bush is a shill for the moneyed interests of Texas, but is this low rent sloganeering the way to understand politicians?

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If he had true character, he would stand by what he beleives in instead of flip flopping.

You know, I don't think so. I don't want this kind of character running my government. I want someone who is adult enough to recognize that something he is doing is wrong, or that something he has believed is incorrect, and changes. People who stick rigorously to principle are the kind of people who create horrors like the Great Leap Forward. As an avowed Christian, you should understand why: because, as sinners and limited beings, we all beleive things that are wrong, and we all do thing that are wrong, and we do them both out of ignorance and out of malice or indifference.

The biggest problem with Bush right now has nothing to do with the litmus social issues over which he really has little influence anyway. It's the history he has established of valuing damage control over everything else, and of ignoring cautionary advice, and of surrounding himself with people who are abusive to those with cautionary advice. All of this flap now about 9/11 is a perfect example of this. It's clear that the government was to some degree negligent in the matter. It's not clear how much the Bush administration could have to done from the top to improve this, and in any case, it's over and done with and the adult thing to do is to get on with the business of reconciling better security with maintaining American freedoms. Of course, the press aren't in general adults, but that is a different issue. The more immediate problem is that the Bush administration has let itself get wound up in this obession over fault-finding, and has put itself in the position of defending actions which a huge fireball captured lovingly from a multitude of angle showed were wrong.

Then we get to Iraq. Again, I don't really care that much how we got to Iraq, or whether there was some secret plan to get us there all along. The point is, we're there, and once again the military is in a morass because of bad planning, directed from the top, and where the people at the top are utterly unrepentant about what they did and are doing wrong. So we're left with an administration that is directing the military to repeat Mogadishu, because they have to stick to their principles.

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I would say the republicans are for the most part the Party of morality because they take a traditional christian viewpoint on most of their policies compared to the secular agenda of the the democrats. What I find absolutely disgusting about the Dems is their hate for human life.

I don't think they hate human life. They would argue that the Republicans value potential life in total dismissal of the actual suffering that people undergo.

Looking only at the dissidence of the two parties is futile. In this state, the Republicans are the dissidents; it Texas, it would be the Democrats who are the dissidents. But when push comes to shove, the incumbents are of a piece. They are still making cozy deals with business, and they are still making corrupt deals in their own self-interest. Some are better, some are worse; but all political fish swim in a river of temptation and corruption.

I am hardly here to defend the moral rectitude of the Democrats, by any means. But one has to consider what the tradeoff is between permitting people to sin and what the Republicans offer in exchange. Right now, it seems to me that you are stuck with denying the very obvious sins of the Republicans because you 've demanded purity from your political parties. That they are all impure is something that anyone can see, so if you take yourself seriously you shouldn't be voting at all.
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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2004, 09:00:38 AM »

Well put, Keble.

The Republicans aren't a party of morality either.

In fact, I think the dems are lookin' good this time around.

I mean, look at all the Bush Administration failures:

- Failure in Iraq. Look at our casulties. Our response? Send more troops!
- Impending oil crisis.  No shortage of oil, a surplus was made last quarter. Yet why are prices continuing to climb?
- Upper management corruption/Outsourcing - Find it odd that joe blow CEO is making salarys in the millions, while sending off jobs to Asia and South America in the name of cost savings?  And don't tell me outsourcing is a small problem, I know more than enough layed off workers who have cashed in their 401K just to stay alive.
- The Bush Administration, like you said Keble, may not have been able to prevent 9/11, however if they had reacted properly, they could have perhaps lessened the impact.  The bottom line is, the knowledge was there. The FBI KNEW that Mohammad Atta and Co. were training to fly planes. Instead of the Bush Administration saying, "Look, we made a mistake." we instead have a party blaming the previous party.

Looks like the Republican party ain't no cakewalk either.

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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2004, 11:00:50 AM »

I have to say that the weakness of both candidates this time around makes this coming election quite unpalatable in general.

Bush?  Okay, but someone has to hold the administration to account for this wild goose chase it led us on in Iraq.   WMD?  Where?  This country went to war not to topple a dictator, but to eliminate WMD that we were told were a direct threat to our country.  They didn't exist.  I'm not saying that we were *lied * to, my guess is that it is yet another intelligence lapse, but by golly what a big one, such a big one that the Bush Admin. has to be held to account for it.  What a collosal failure.

Kerry?  Well, the debacle in Iraq gives him an easier run this time, because he can divert attention away from his voting record, which is probably well to the left of what most mainstream Americans are comfortable with.  Nevertheless an inspiring person with inspiring ideas?  Hardly.  Less inspiring than Al Gore, less populist.  

I can tell you I am not particularly inspired by either of these two candidates at this point.  And please don't tell me that I have to vote for Bush because of prolife, because I do not believe in one-issue voting.  

I think that the mediocrity of the candidates mirrors the poor level of political discourse in this country at this time.  We spend most of our time here polarizing, talking past each other, painting the other side as irretrievably evil and sinister, and thereby hoping to garner "votes" from our "base" (ie, the truly biased, true believers who are generally outside the mainstream), rather than addressing the issues in anything like a consensual fashion.  As a result, we are attracting poor talent for higher public service.

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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2004, 11:02:33 AM »

Kerry told to seek mate with 'balance'

By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Democratic leaders are advising Sen. John Kerry to take great care in picking his running mate and select someone who neutralizes his Northeast liberal reputation and doesn't eclipse him in the charm department.

"doesn't eclipse him in the charm department. " Wow. He has his work cut out for him.

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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2004, 01:05:01 PM »

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You are so innundated with right-wing propaganda that you can no longer identify it.  Do you ever bother to seek out alternative news sources to Fox News and talk radio?  Do you read something other than books by Michael Savage?  Do you make an effort to educate yourself about the issues or just listen to talk radio tell you how to think?

NO

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Regardless if I were a veteran of the Vietnam war and had to choose between someone who actually volunteered to fight and someone who used his daddy's connections to get into a cushy national guard position, I'd choose the guy who actually went.  

Now, now Jen, you accuse me of right wing propaganda. This def. would qualify for left wing propaganda.

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demonstrates perfectly what I was referring to in my earlier post.  This kind political discourse is what is dividing this country.  You honestly believe that the democrats "hate" human life.  How patently absurd.  But you honestly believe it.  

Yes I do. If they "loved" life they would be for protecting the rights of the defenseless. Is my postion any different than that of the Church Fathers??? I think not..... By the way, I've never heard the President say that Democrats are dividing this country, but I hear John Kerry always say that the Republicans/Bush are dividing our country.

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Was he? Who's your source?

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37577

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I don't think you have standing to assert that. Furthermore, to be quite rude about it, the opinions of each Vietnam veteran are not created equal. Probably there are all too many of them who base their judgement on a single picture of Jane Fonda with Kerry in the background.

See what these Veterans think about Kerry.
www.vetsagainstkerry.org
www.vnsfvetakerry.com

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And George Bush is a shill for the moneyed interests of Texas, but is this low rent sloganeering the way to understand politicians?

This sounds like left wing propaganda. What about John Kerrys 5 mansions???

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I don't think they hate human life. They would argue that the Republicans value potential life in total dismissal of the actual suffering that people undergo.

"Potential Life." LOL, how about ALL life. And What about suffering??? So that gives people an excuse to murder the unborn because they might have to "suffer" a little more to raise a child?? I don't get you liberals, I thought you were all about protecting the rights of the defenseless??? Is my position any different than that of the church fathers?? I think not...

More to come later......


Peace of Christ



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« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2004, 05:39:56 PM »

Robert,

I think the war in Iraq has produced some unfortunate casualties but it is hardly a failure.  When Bush said we were going to war he said we would be there about two years.  It's been a year and we are preparing to hand over power.  Sounds reasonable to me.

I hate to say it since I know you are an IT guy, but how is outsourcing the fault of the Bush Administration?  Unfortunately, it is impossible to put barriers to trade up and falsely prop up an industry. We've tried to do that and it only results in much higher prices, inflation, etc.

The thing about oil prices really blew my mind, Robert. How is that related to the Bush Administration?  Seems like simple supply and demand.

I'm a Republican only because I don't believe the governemnt can really do much to impact the economy, and because I agree with them on some moral issues.  I get extrememly annoyed by leftwing types who complain that the government should be doing x, y, and z to "fix" our country. I don't think it can work.  Now I wish it could, because I am somewhat of an absolutist in my personal beliefs (I would prefer a monarchy) but I just don't think that would work in today's world so I settle on being a Republican.

anastasios
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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2004, 06:04:13 PM »

I'm not Robert, but IMHO Iraq is a dismal failure.  We don't have enough troops on the ground to really secure the country.  I doubt very seriously that we'll be able to pull out a year from now.  How will things really be any differen then than they are now?  

Regardless of whether things are going well in Iraq, the mission was based on faulty intelligence.  Bush said we were going to war to find WMD, so where are the WMD?  We now know how we were being manipulated by defectors.  

Now we're stuck in the situation of having to win a war that was based on false pretenses.  We have to finish what we've started, supposedly, but we never should have started based on what we know now.  And it's not a matter of hindsight being 20/20 because a lot of reasonable voices were cautioning against putting so much faith in defectors.  The Bush administration ignored anything that didn't support their view.  In the law that's called reckless.
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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2004, 06:16:53 PM »

I think Bush should have just said we were going to war in Iraq based on its failure to live up to the 17 UN resolutions it ignored, and just not have said anything about WMD.  I support the action we took even though they never found WMD's.

I don't think it's a dismal failure but rather a tough situation to be in that could go either way.  Either way, Saddam is gone and that's all I cared about.
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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2004, 11:08:02 PM »

Let's go back a ways here:

He was even present at a meeting that called for the assasination of some of our political leaders shortly after he returned from Nam.  

OK, so I follow the WorldNetDaily article link, and on that page, a find a link to a New York Sun articles. And if you read that article, you find there is a certain difference of versions of what happened. Kerry denies being there at all, while someone else said that he was there, voted against it, and then resigned from the group.

At any rate, I think it is a serious error-- maybe a sin-- to vote on the basis of which candidate makes you feel best about your own supposed morality.
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