Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: November 22, 2010, 08:24:03 PM » |
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a friend from the Philippines said that they believe a baby will dwell in hell forever if they are unbaptized.
what does Orthodoxy say? what about the victims of a still birth or abortion? can you baptize a dead infant?
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Papist
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 08:26:59 PM » |
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Is your friend Eastern Orthodox or Catholic?
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Tikhon.of.Colorado
But you can call me Trevor.
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 08:27:50 PM » |
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Is your friend Eastern Orthodox or Catholic?
(Ha! I love your picture!) she's a Roman Catholic. |
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Maybe I'm posting, maybe I'm not. Who knows...
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augustin717
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 08:31:29 PM » |
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We do not know, of course, what follows, but, traditionally the prospect wasn't all that good. In many places they weren't even buried with the baptized, but in a corner of the cemetery, with those that killed themselves.
In many places they were thought to become vampires/werewolves etc.
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Papist
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 08:32:52 PM » |
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Is your friend Eastern Orthodox or Catholic?
(Ha! I love your picture!) she's a Roman Catholic. Well, she is mistaken. We have no Divine Revelation on what happens to unbaptized infants, but many (if not most) Catholics believe that the Grace of God can still save such infants. We have a saying: "We are bound to the Sacraments, but God is not." |
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« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 08:33:19 PM by Papist »
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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orthonorm
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2010, 11:32:03 PM » |
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We do not know, of course, what follows, but, traditionally the prospect wasn't all that good. In many places they weren't even buried with the baptized, but in a corner of the cemetery, with those that killed themselves.
In many places they were thought to become vampires/werewolves etc.
This seems in line with both reason and the Gospel as given in the Scriptures and most writings I have read and podcasts I have listened to about Orthodoxy. Fr. Hopko did a whole series of podcasts on the various malevolent creatures dead un-baptized babies can turn into. On a not insane note, Father Hopko did offer a thought provoking and heart breaking podcast on suicide: http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/suicide |
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« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 11:32:30 PM by orthonorm »
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 11:36:19 PM » |
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Fr. Hopko did a whole series of podcasts on the various malevolent creatures dead un-baptized babies can turn into.
What...? Like hobgoblins and such?  |
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"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled." - Plutarch
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augustin717
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 11:41:42 PM » |
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We do not know, of course, what follows, but, traditionally the prospect wasn't all that good. In many places they weren't even buried with the baptized, but in a corner of the cemetery, with those that killed themselves.
In many places they were thought to become vampires/werewolves etc.
This seems in line with both reason and the Gospel as given in the Scriptures and most writings I have read and podcasts I have listened to about Orthodoxy. Fr. Hopko did a whole series of podcasts on the various malevolent creatures dead un-baptized babies can turn into. On a not insane note, Father Hopko did offer a thought provoking and heart breaking podcast on suicide: http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/suicideWhen it comes to such things, I do not hold Fr. Hopko-I never read or listened to anything penned by him-in higher regard than the old peasants I grew up with. On the contrary. |
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orthonorm
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 11:51:02 PM » |
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We do not know, of course, what follows, but, traditionally the prospect wasn't all that good. In many places they weren't even buried with the baptized, but in a corner of the cemetery, with those that killed themselves.
In many places they were thought to become vampires/werewolves etc.
This seems in line with both reason and the Gospel as given in the Scriptures and most writings I have read and podcasts I have listened to about Orthodoxy. Fr. Hopko did a whole series of podcasts on the various malevolent creatures dead un-baptized babies can turn into. On a not insane note, Father Hopko did offer a thought provoking and heart breaking podcast on suicide: http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/suicideWhen it comes to such things, I do not hold Fr. Hopko-I never read or listened to anything penned by him-in higher regard than the old peasants I grew up with. On the contrary. Sensible. I am sure werewolf has to been mentioned at least a dozen times in the Gospels. But hey, if an old peasant says so . . . Ever read Bulgakov's A Country Doctor's Notebook? You can probably get by without Grey's Anatomy as well. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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augustin717
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2010, 12:26:18 AM » |
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We do not know, of course, what follows, but, traditionally the prospect wasn't all that good. In many places they weren't even buried with the baptized, but in a corner of the cemetery, with those that killed themselves.
In many places they were thought to become vampires/werewolves etc.
This seems in line with both reason and the Gospel as given in the Scriptures and most writings I have read and podcasts I have listened to about Orthodoxy. Fr. Hopko did a whole series of podcasts on the various malevolent creatures dead un-baptized babies can turn into. On a not insane note, Father Hopko did offer a thought provoking and heart breaking podcast on suicide: http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/suicideWhen it comes to such things, I do not hold Fr. Hopko-I never read or listened to anything penned by him-in higher regard than the old peasants I grew up with. On the contrary. Sensible. I am sure werewolf has to been mentioned at least a dozen times in the Gospels. But hey, if an old peasant says so . . . Ever read Bulgakov's A Country Doctor's Notebook? You can probably get by without Grey's Anatomy as well.
Save the ironies for elsewhere. The point is that when it comes to what happens to an unbaptized kid after death is as much known to Fr. Hopko as it is to an illiterate peasant. |
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2010, 12:35:10 AM » |
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Orthonorm can you please post a link to the previously mentioned podcasts about infants that are unbaptized becoming malevolent creatures? ??please? |
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orthonorm
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2010, 01:19:05 AM » |
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Fr. Hopko did a whole series of podcasts on the various malevolent creatures dead un-baptized babies can turn into.
What...? Like hobgoblins and such? No, but I think after reading through this thread have finally found the source for all the trolls I run across. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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orthonorm
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2010, 01:23:18 AM » |
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Orthonorm can you please post a link to the previously mentioned podcasts about infants that are unbaptized becoming malevolent creatures? ??please? I was being ironic bordering on sarcasm perhaps . . . Citing relatively respected authority to give credence to insane suggestion. An attempt poorly as it might have been at further pointing out the incredible degree of madness in the post while trying to inject humor. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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lubeltri
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2010, 01:29:39 AM » |
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It's a mystery. All we can do is pray for the child.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2010, 01:47:28 AM » |
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It's a mystery. All we can do is pray for the child.
Isn't is always a mystery? Is there a difference between a child who has been baptized and one who hasn't solely in virtue of their baptism? |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2010, 10:57:10 AM » |
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It's a mystery. All we can do is pray for the child.
Isn't is always a mystery? Is there a difference between a child who has been baptized and one who hasn't solely in virtue of their baptism? Yes, actually. A baptized baby is baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ and made a member of the Church. This is not to say that non-baptized babies are going to hell. What kind of God would we have, then, especially since these have done nothing to offend God, but, rather, He has seen fit to take them to Himself. |
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Not to be flippantly dismissive, but something of such a personal nature as this is best addressed by your priest, not by anonymous yahoos on an Internet discussion forum.
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