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Author Topic: Was Jesus anti-Semetic?  (Read 2798 times) Average Rating: 0
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RyanS
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« on: November 22, 2010, 07:02:01 PM »

Just something I've always wondered.

Matthew 15:21-28

 21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

 27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Also, this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuVQqGMWy24
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 07:04:29 PM »

Just something I've always wondered.

Matthew 15:21-28

 21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

 27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Also, this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuVQqGMWy24

The woman is Canaanite, not Jewish. It would be rather confusing for a Jew to be anti-Semitic.

Actually, there was a lot of historical tension between the Galileans and the Judeans.
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 07:06:42 PM »

Well, I was just going to ask if the Canaanites were a semitic people. Jews ain't the only semites in town.
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 07:07:58 PM »

Jesus, anti-Semetic? He was a Jew. Geesh.
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 07:49:09 PM »

Jesus, anti-Semetic? He was a Jew. Geesh.

If by that you simply mean those who worshiped in the Jerusalem Temple, sure.
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2010, 08:12:09 PM »

Jews ain't the only semites in town.
Not according to Zionists.  Weird, huh?  Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 08:25:28 PM »

What's a "Semite"?
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 09:00:37 PM »

What's a "Semite"?

Ummmmm.... someone from a people that speaks a Semitic language (Hebrew, Aramaean, Arab, Amhara, etc)?
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 09:33:58 PM »

I am not sure that I understand why this question was posed, particularly in the framework of the youtube reference. I really can't think of any positive reason for the question. But...here is the Free Dictionary Online definition of 'semite' from the internet. If you compare this with other sources online you will find the same definition.( I have no idea why the cross throughs showed up when i tried to italicize the quoted sections. Perhaps a mod can fix this. Thank you.) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Semite

Sem·ite 

1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
2. A Jew.
3. Bible A descendant of Shem.


The referenced source goes on to further define 'anti-semitism' as follows http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/anti+semite :

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilizations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation" in which they reside.[1] A person who practices antisemitism is called an "antisemite."

Antisemitism may be manifested in many ways, ranging from individual expressions of hatred and discrimination against individual Jews to organized violent attacks by mobs or even state, police or military attacks on entire Jewish communities. Extreme instances of persecution include the First Crusade of 1096, the expulsion from England in 1290, the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion from Spain in 1492, the expulsion from Portugal in 1497, various pogroms, the Dreyfus Affair, and perhaps the most infamous, the Holocaust under Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany.

While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[2] and that has been its normal use since then.[3][4]



The Roman Catholic historian Edward Flannery distinguished four varieties of antisemitism:[5]

political and economic antisemitism, giving as examples Cicero and Charles Lindbergh;
theological or religious antisemitism, sometimes known as anti-Judaism;
nationalistic antisemitism, citing Voltaire and other Enlightenment thinkers, who attacked Jews for supposedly having certain characteristics, such as greed and arrogance, and for observing customs such as kashrut and Shabbat;
and racial antisemitism, as practiced in the Holocaust by the Nazis.
In addition, from the 1990s, some writers claim to have identified a new antisemitism, a form of antisemitism coming simultaneously from the far left, the far right, and radical Islam, which tends to focus on opposition to Zionism and a Jewish homeland in the State of Israel, and which may deploy traditional antisemitism motifs, including older motifs like the "Blood Libel"


This claim is an old anti-Christian canard and is as credible as anti-Jewish canards that some 'Christian' perpetuate.
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2010, 09:48:43 PM »

Well, I was just going to ask if the Canaanites were a semitic people. Jews ain't the only semites in town.

Yes, the Canaanites were Semitic. But I never heard of mass-murder against Canaanites, so in the context of the question, they don't count.
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2010, 10:04:05 PM »

 Embarrassed Oh boy did I screw up. Let me rephrase this. Was Jesus racist against people who weren't Jews? There. I'll be sure not to make that mistake again.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2010, 10:10:52 PM »

Yes, the Canaanites were Semitic. But I never heard of mass-murder against Canaanites, so in the context of the question, they don't count.

Have you read the Old Testament? Weren't they one of those groups that received a mass-extermination courtesy of God?
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2010, 10:17:19 PM »

Yes, the Canaanites were Semitic. But I never heard of mass-murder against Canaanites, so in the context of the question, they don't count.

Have you read the Old Testament? Weren't they one of those groups that received a mass-extermination courtesy of God?

All the "-ites" received such treatment. Regarding the Canaanites in particular, first God sent hornets (Ex. 23:28), but that didn't work, and then God tried sending an angel (Ex. 33:2), but that didn't work either. Finally God said "Screw it, I'm letting the Jews finish this" (Deut. 20:16-17). However, God then went to take care of other business, and didn't realise that the Jews hadn't done what he had asked (ie. exterminate the various -ites).
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 10:18:55 PM »

Yes, the Canaanites were Semitic. But I never heard of mass-murder against Canaanites, so in the context of the question, they don't count.

Have you read the Old Testament? Weren't they one of those groups that received a mass-extermination courtesy of God?

I mentioned that in the original version of my post, but I edited it out. There was  an unbelievable amount of racism against the neighboring peoples in Judea in the years leading up to the diaspora. That is still not what people mean when they say "anti-Semitic."
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2010, 10:20:02 PM »

I am making another thread with a different title simply because I'm incredibly embarrassed at my rookie mistake.
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2010, 10:22:01 PM »

Just something I've always wondered.

Matthew 15:21-28

 21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

 27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Also, this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuVQqGMWy24
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2010, 10:23:55 PM »

For those of you who are wondering why I posted this twice, I made an incredibly embarrassing mistake in the first thread (calling Jesus an anti-Semite  Embarrassed )So, I'm starting the conversation anew.
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2010, 10:24:39 PM »

I am making another thread with a different title simply because I'm incredibly embarrassed at my rookie mistake.

If I re-posted some of the dumber things I said when I was a noob, would that make you feel better? Wink Wink
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2010, 10:30:30 PM »

Well, I was just going to ask if the Canaanites were a semitic people. Jews ain't the only semites in town.

Yes, the Canaanites were Semitic. But I never heard of mass-murder against Canaanites, so in the context of the question, they don't count.
The Canaanites were sons of Ham, biblically.

Genesis 9:

18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.)
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2010, 10:35:47 PM »

The Fathers say He did it to bring out her faith for everyone to see. As for evidence that He was/is not a xenophobe, consider the parable of the Good Samaritan, speaking to the Samaritan woman at Sychar, and the fact that He sent His apostles to preach to the nations (which a non-believer would deny, but whatever).
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2010, 11:04:25 PM »

St John Chrysostom's homily on this passage is insightful, I think: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200152.htm

It seems that Christ was testing her. She demonstrated her humility by not protesting, but accepting his words and even adding to them by saying, "The dogs also eat of the crumbs that fall from their master's table." And since she humbled herself, Christ then exalted her by praising her faith.
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2010, 01:08:32 AM »

The Canaanites were sons of Ham, biblically.

Genesis 9:

18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.)

Ah, so they were Hamites.  Tongue
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2010, 01:15:30 AM »

The Canaanites were sons of Ham, biblically.

Genesis 9:

18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.)

Ah, so they were Hamites.  Tongue

I believe the name Canaan appears at several points in the genealogies, but it's just not worth looking up. I find it surprising that the genealogy apparently considers them Hamites, because they speak a Semitic language (Hebrew was practically just a dialect of the Canaanite language group, and it is very similar to Arabic and Aramaic). The Egyptians would be an example of Hamites, as identified anthropologically and linguistically.
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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2010, 01:27:47 AM »

Yes, the Canaanites were Semitic. But I never heard of mass-murder against Canaanites, so in the context of the question, they don't count.

Have you read the Old Testament? Weren't they one of those groups that received a mass-extermination courtesy of God?

All the "-ites" received such treatment. Regarding the Canaanites in particular, first God sent hornets (Ex. 23:28), but that didn't work, and then God tried sending an angel (Ex. 33:2), but that didn't work either. Finally God said "Screw it, I'm letting the Jews finish this" (Deut. 20:16-17). However, God then went to take care of other business, and didn't realise that the Jews hadn't done what he had asked (ie. exterminate the various -ites).


funny.
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2010, 11:03:07 AM »

Besides, what reason would God have to be racist, since He created all races?
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2010, 12:55:56 PM »

I've merged two topics.
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2010, 02:12:03 PM »

Just something I've always wondered.

Matthew 15:21-28

 21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

 27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Also, this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuVQqGMWy24

Jesus was neither anti-Caananite, nor was He racist against the non-Jewish people.


This incident and narrative were meant to highlight the contrast between the Jewish disbelief in the promised Messiah despite their selection by God and preparation for Him and the amazing faith of a Gentile WOMAN (not only non-Jewish, but also a woman!) despite the fact that the Gentiles were not selected by God and not prepared for the coming of the Messiah. (The narrative of Jesus' dialogue with the Samaritan woman in John 4 contains the same theme and motifs.)

The Caananite woman was actually tested by Jesus, and she passed her test with flying colours. The test of faith given by Jesus to the woman contained three questions/sections/phases:

1) Jesus ignored the woman altogether: but the woman did not leave.
2) Jesus responded to the woman upon the request of the disciples and told her that the scope of His mission excluded her: but the woman did not leave.
3) Jesus finally reminded the woman of Israel's primacy/exalted status in God's sight, but the woman neither objected nor left. Instead, she gave a wise answer and predicted that the Gentiles would receive the grace of salvation after the Jews.

Jesus announced that the woman passed the test of faith and praised the greatness of her faith. As a reward, the woman got the healing miracle that she had asked for.

These three phases may have also corresponded to the three periods in the history of God's salvation:

1) People fell into sin, were alienated from God, and they needed salvation.
2)God chose Abraham and created a nation from his offspring.
3) God sent the Messiah to Israel, then salvation in Christ was extended to the Gentiles.

If some people tell you that Jesus was a nationalist or racist Jew who hated the Gentiles, ask them to read Luke 4:16-31 first, and then remind them that Jesus drew a parallelism between Jonah the prophet and Himself while predicting His greatest miracle: the resurrection. Jonah was a prophet who had been sent to the Gentiles!

Peace,
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2010, 04:50:43 PM »

Although Jesus did it for the purpose of testing her, did He not equivocate her people, the Canannaites, with dogs who beg at the feet of His people, the Jews? Does this not seem to imply strongly that He considered them a lesser people nonetheless?
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2010, 05:34:22 PM »

Although Jesus did it for the purpose of testing her, did He not equivocate her people, the Canannaites, with dogs who beg at the feet of His people, the Jews? Does this not seem to imply strongly that He considered them a lesser people nonetheless?

No. As was stated earlier, the purpose was to showcase her faith, not to belittle her or her people. For goodness sake, why think of the Son of God in those terms?
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2010, 06:38:25 PM »

Although Jesus did it for the purpose of testing her, did He not equivocate her people, the Canannaites, with dogs who beg at the feet of His people, the Jews? Does this not seem to imply strongly that He considered them a lesser people nonetheless?

No. As was stated earlier, the purpose was to showcase her faith, not to belittle her or her people. For goodness sake, why think of the Son of God in those terms?

It just seems to be the straightforward reading of the text, forgive me.
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« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2010, 06:49:53 PM »

Although Jesus did it for the purpose of testing her, did He not equivocate her people, the Canannaites, with dogs who beg at the feet of His people, the Jews? Does this not seem to imply strongly that He considered them a lesser people nonetheless?

No. As was stated earlier, the purpose was to showcase her faith, not to belittle her or her people. For goodness sake, why think of the Son of God in those terms?

It just seems to be the straightforward reading of the text, forgive me.

When we read a holy text, a deacon I know once said, we need to adopt the right perspective. As various holy fathers have commented in explaining Scripture, things God does should be understood in a God-befitting manner. This is the same after the Incarnation. The God-man, Christ, acts for a different purpose than men who are subject to passions.
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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2010, 08:39:31 PM »

I've merged two topics.

Thanks. I would have preferred it if you had merged the topics with the new title though.
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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2010, 08:41:39 PM »

Although Jesus did it for the purpose of testing her, did He not equivocate her people, the Canannaites, with dogs who beg at the feet of His people, the Jews? Does this not seem to imply strongly that He considered them a lesser people nonetheless?

This summarizes my question perfectly.
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« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2010, 08:53:41 PM »


It just seems to be the straightforward reading of the text, forgive me.

When we read a holy text, a deacon I know once said, we need to adopt the right perspective. As various holy fathers have commented in explaining Scripture, things God does should be understood in a God-befitting manner. This is the same after the Incarnation. The God-man, Christ, acts for a different purpose than men who are subject to passions.

I've struggled in the same way that OrthoCat has.  I try to adopt the right perspective while reading a holy text and keep in mind that God's actions are not always understandable to us.  However, certain statements become barriers.  Perhaps pride causes this aversion to being identified with the dog begging for scraps from another people, but it remains.

I will try to better apply Shanghaiski's advice. My issues with passages such as these are clearly indicative of larger issues concerning my full conversion to the Christian faith.
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« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2010, 08:57:11 PM »

Although Jesus did it for the purpose of testing her, did He not equivocate her people, the Canannaites, with dogs who beg at the feet of His people, the Jews? Does this not seem to imply strongly that He considered them a lesser people nonetheless?

This summarizes my question perfectly.

Ryan, I'm surprised that this topic wasn't covered thoroughly in your evangelical background.  Did you find the explanation you received to be unconvincing or insufficient, or are you specifically looking for the Orthodox take on this question (or both)?
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« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2010, 09:22:00 PM »

Although Jesus did it for the purpose of testing her, did He not equivocate her people, the Canannaites, with dogs who beg at the feet of His people, the Jews? Does this not seem to imply strongly that He considered them a lesser people nonetheless?

This summarizes my question perfectly.

Ryan, I'm surprised that this topic wasn't covered thoroughly in your evangelical background.  Did you find the explanation you received to be unconvincing or insufficient, or are you specifically looking for the Orthodox take on this question (or both)?

Both. The fact that Jesus refers to the Canaanite woman as a dog is indicative that Jesus was looking down on her race. The YouTube video I linked to goes into a bit more detail on this. But I consider the Orthodox (as a whole) to be more knowledgeable on these issues than their Protestant (and possibly Roman Catholic) counterparts, which is partially why I'm considering converting.  I'm essentially in the same boat you're in. These questions deal with very specific topics, but they are indicative of a much larger question. These large questions hinder my conversion to the faith. But asking such questions like, "Does God exist?" or "How do we know the Bible is generally reliable?" are much too broad and most of the time don't get into the meat of the matter. So, I prefer to focus on specifics.
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« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2010, 10:00:36 PM »

Quote from: Rufus
The woman is Canaanite, not Jewish. It would be rather confusing for a Jew to be anti-Semitic.

Actually, there was a lot of historical tension between the Galileans and the Judeans."

In Christ's time on earth there was no such word as 'Jew' or 'Jewish'.

In the New Testament, the word 'Jew' means Judean... But as you pointed out - Jesus was a Galilean NOT a Judean. Eventually He would not walk in Judea because the Judeans ('Jews') sought to kill Him. 

Please, keeping in mind that 'Jew' in the New Testament meant Judean... tell me HOW you figure Jesus is a 'Jew'? Are you saying that God incarnate Himself is a 'Jew'?!?



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Finally God said "Screw it, I'm letting the Jews finish this" (Deut. 20:16-17). However, God then went to take care of other business, and didn't realise that the Jews hadn't done what he had asked (ie. exterminate the various -ites)."

'Jews' are not mentioned at all in Deuteronomy... Not once.

In fact 'Jews' do not appear anywhere in the Pentateuch... The first mention of 'Jews' in the Bible is in IV Kingdoms (II Kings) 16:6.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... even Moses... NONE of them are called 'Jews'.

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« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2010, 11:37:41 PM »

Embarrassed Oh boy did I screw up. Let me rephrase this. Was Jesus racist against people who weren't Jews? There. I'll be sure not to make that mistake again.  Embarrassed

No
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« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2010, 11:39:17 PM »

Are you saying that God incarnate Himself is a 'Jew'?!?


Yes
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« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2010, 01:32:25 AM »

I'll be honest and say that I shudder every time when I see Saint Iaint has reappeared on the forum.  I don't know who he or she is but you can almost guarantee before you even read his messages that they will be filled with hate and disdain for the race that bore our Saviour.   

He doesn't seem to be Orthodox since in his time on the forum he has said that he belongs to no Orthodox Church.  Is he just some anti-Jewish troll who likes to bring his anti-Semitism onto this forum?
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« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2010, 02:43:14 AM »

Are you saying that God incarnate Himself is a 'Jew'?!?


Yes

Look... If Jesus is a 'Jew' - then those who are today calling themselves 'Jews' are not. If they are - then He isn't.

'(...) I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.'
- Revelation 2:9


In the flesh, here on Earth... Jesus was a Hebrew. Jesus was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah.

Jesus was not a Judean. Jesus was not a 'Jew'.

You people are using the word 'Jew' as if it were synonymous with 'Israelite'. You are wrong. Stop it.

The vast majority of so-called 'Jews' are TALMUDIC (Pharisaic actually), ANTI-CHRIST and extremely xenophobic.

Jesus is not Pharisaic. Jesus is not anti-Christ. Jesus is NOT one of them.

HOW can Jesus be a so-called 'Jew'? Jesus is God!

Abraham existed before Israel. Israel existed before Judah. Judah therefore was necessarily the first 'Jew'. Meaning Jacob/Israel was not a 'Jew' nor was Abraham a 'Jew'.

So if Israel and Abraham predated 'Jews' - then what of Christ?

'Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."'
- John 8:58



I'll be honest and say that I shudder every time when I see Saint Iaint has reappeared on the forum.  I don't know who he or she is but you can almost guarantee before you even read his messages that they will be filled with hate and disdain for the race that bore our Saviour.   

He doesn't seem to be Orthodox since in his time on the forum he has said that he belongs to no Orthodox Church.  Is he just some anti-Jewish troll who likes to bring his anti-Semitism onto this forum?

You bear false witness against me. I hate no one.

There is only one race as far as I (and the New Covenant in which you claim priesthood) are concerned... the HUMAN RACE.

'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.'
Galatians 3:28


Your ridiculous slur of 'anti-Semitism' does not affect me.

I am anti-Talmudic (as should you be). I am pro-truth (as should you be).

Ever heard of Benjamin Friedman or Jack Bernstein? Hmmmm?

Let me guess... they're "anti-Semitic" too right?

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« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2010, 04:05:28 AM »

Although Jesus did it for the purpose of testing her, did He not equivocate her people, the Canannaites, with dogs who beg at the feet of His people, the Jews? Does this not seem to imply strongly that He considered them a lesser people nonetheless?

NO.

Jesus' analogy between children and house pets does not depict the Gentiles as begging at the feet of His people, the Jews! According to this analogy, the children and house pets ate from the same table, but the children had priority. This is why Jesus did not say to the woman: "It is not right to feed the dogs...", but "It is not right to take the bread of the children and give it to the dogs..." This statement had nothing to do with the inferiority or superioty of a race, but with the correct order in the dispensation of God's grace and salvation. This also explains why the apostles FIRST went to the Jews, and THEN to the Gentiles.
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« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2010, 07:57:12 AM »

Jesus is not Pharisaic.

In Truth, Jesus taught a "Golden Rule" philosophy totally in keeping with the Hillel School, which was a minor faction of Pharisees. He also mirrored their idea's about Jewish Practice in terms of issues like healing on the Sabbath. Furthermore, it was the idea of the Pharisee's not to be bound to the Temple and developed the idea of "Home Worship" which the early Christians depended upon as well.

If a man is born in .. lets say... Chicago... of a Jewish Mother, grows up observing all the Jewish Holy Days, becomes expert in Scripture, preaches in the Synagogue and is called Rabbi by his followers, he is most likely:

A. Buddhist
B. Jain
C. Druid
D. Jewish

Answer:  Jewish

Thank you for playing.
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« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2010, 09:53:17 AM »

Although Jesus did it for the purpose of testing her, did He not equivocate her people, the Canannaites, with dogs who beg at the feet of His people, the Jews? Does this not seem to imply strongly that He considered them a lesser people nonetheless?

No. As was stated earlier, the purpose was to showcase her faith, not to belittle her or her people. For goodness sake, why think of the Son of God in those terms?

It just seems to be the straightforward reading of the text, forgive me.

Sola Scripturists would argue that point to death. It's quite good that you also chose to humbled yourself.
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« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2010, 11:40:17 AM »

What I get from Saint Iaint is that calling Christ a Jew is anachronistic. I don't know if that's accurate or not, but I don't think that's a necessarily racist opinion to hold.
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« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2010, 04:14:47 PM »

What I get from Saint Iaint is that calling Christ a Jew is anachronistic. I don't know if that's accurate or not, but I don't think that's a necessarily racist opinion to hold.

Unless the person saying it is a racist.
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« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2010, 05:17:46 AM »

HOW can Jesus be a so-called 'Jew'? Jesus is God!

I am anti-Talmudic (as should you be). I am pro-truth (as should you be).
Very good!
God has no nationality. Jesus is God. Therefore Jesus has no nationality.
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« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2010, 05:35:18 AM »

Jews determine the nationality of the child by the mother. Other people to determine the nationality of the child by his father.
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« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2010, 07:09:56 AM »

Jews determine the nationality of the child by the mother. Other people to determine the nationality of the child by his father.

You are incorrect. Different cultures determine ethnicity in different ways. In a patriarchal society the lineage comes from the father. In a matriarchal society the lineage come from the mother. Amongst American Indians as a whole this is particularly confusing. One person could be 50% native American, but in certain tribes they are not recognized as such because the bloodline is thru the wrong parent. Whereas another person could be 1/16th native American and is considered "more Indian" because they just have to prove they have an ancestor from the tribe. So the 1/2 amerindian person is "not indian" and the 1/16th amerindian person is "indian."
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« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2010, 07:21:29 AM »

Quote from: Saint Iaint
The vast majority of so-called 'Jews' are TALMUDIC (Pharisaic actually), ANTI-CHRIST and extremely xenophobic.

Wow.  Shocked  You know all of them? You met every one, and talked to each one personally, and saw into their hearts, and can judge as God can judge? How was this not on the news yesterday?  Huh

Quote from: Saint Iaint
In the flesh, here on Earth... Jesus was a Hebrew. Jesus was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah. Jesus was not a Judean. Jesus was not a 'Jew'.

Then all that getting circumcised and celebrating the Feast of the Tabernacles and being called Rabboni would have been pretty darned surprising!  Shocked I didn't know people in first-Century Roman Palestine did stuff like that for no reason.

And what does this say about the ethnic and cultural heritage of the Theotokos, St. Joseph the Betrothed, and the Apostles? About St. Simeon? You know the Old Testament prophets are also saints, right?  Huh

Quote from: Saint Iaint
Abraham existed before Israel. Israel existed before Judah. Judah therefore was necessarily the first 'Jew'. Meaning Jacob/Israel was not a 'Jew' nor was Abraham a 'Jew'.

You should bring this up in Brooklyn sometime.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2010, 11:25:00 AM »

HOW can Jesus be a so-called 'Jew'? Jesus is God!

I am anti-Talmudic (as should you be). I am pro-truth (as should you be).
Very good!
God has no nationality. Jesus is God. Therefore Jesus has no nationality.

In Orthodox Christianity we consider Jesus both fully God and fully Man.. The Man was Jewish. He was circumcised.
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« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2010, 11:27:17 AM »

To deny that Jesus was a Jew is to deny his incarnation in this world.
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« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2010, 11:47:02 AM »

In Orthodox Christianity we consider Jesus both fully God and fully Man.. The Man was Jewish. He was circumcised.

Jesus is from the lineage of David, because it gave birth to Mary.
Father of Jesus is God. That means Jesus has the same nationality as God.
God has no nationality.

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« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2010, 11:54:37 AM »

In Orthodox Christianity we consider Jesus both fully God and fully Man.. The Man was Jewish. He was circumcised.

Jesus is from the lineage of David, because it gave birth to Mary.
Father of Jesus is God. That means Jesus has the same nationality as God.
God has no nationality.



Actually in Judaism, nationality is determined by the Maternal Line. if your Mom is Jewish, so are you... I am sure God knew this Smiley

He also practiced Judaism. He  was ritually circumcised ( which is definitive in terms of his Jewishness). He preached in the Synagogue. Do you think a Non-Jew would be allowed to do that in the 1st Century? He and his family observed the Holy Days of Judaism. He refers to the Jewish People as His People. He is referred to by his followers a Rabbi. He promulgates the views of a particular faction within Judaism ( Hillel School)  etc etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Come on.
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« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2010, 12:14:14 PM »

Jews determine the nationality of the child by the mother. Other people to determine the nationality of the child by his father.
You are incorrect. Different cultures determine ethnicity in different ways. In a patriarchal society the lineage comes from the father. In a matriarchal society the lineage come from the mother.
Therefore, Jesus is God for a patriarchal society, but Jesus is a jew for a matriarchal society.


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« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2010, 12:22:33 PM »

In Orthodox Christianity we consider Jesus both fully God and fully Man.. The Man was Jewish. He was circumcised.
Jesus is from the lineage of David, because it gave birth to Mary.
Father of Jesus is God. That means Jesus has the same nationality as God.
God has no nationality.
Actually in Judaism, nationality is determined by the Maternal Line. if your Mom is Jewish, so are you... I am sure God knew this Smiley
He also practiced Judaism. He  was ritually circumcised ( which is definitive in terms of his Jewishness). He preached in the Synagogue. Do you think a Non-Jew would be allowed to do that in the 1st Century? He and his family observed the Holy Days of Judaism. He refers to the Jewish People as His People. He is referred to by his followers a Rabbi. He promulgates the views of a particular faction within Judaism ( Hillel School)  etc etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Come on.

That's it. Jesus is a jew for judaists. Jesus is God for orthodox christians.

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« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2010, 12:43:03 PM »

In Orthodox Christianity we consider Jesus both fully God and fully Man.. The Man was Jewish. He was circumcised.
Jesus is from the lineage of David, because it gave birth to Mary.
Father of Jesus is God. That means Jesus has the same nationality as God.
God has no nationality.
Actually in Judaism, nationality is determined by the Maternal Line. if your Mom is Jewish, so are you... I am sure God knew this Smiley
He also practiced Judaism. He  was ritually circumcised ( which is definitive in terms of his Jewishness). He preached in the Synagogue. Do you think a Non-Jew would be allowed to do that in the 1st Century? He and his family observed the Holy Days of Judaism. He refers to the Jewish People as His People. He is referred to by his followers a Rabbi. He promulgates the views of a particular faction within Judaism ( Hillel School)  etc etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Come on.

That's it. Jesus is a jew for judaists. Jesus is God for orthodox christians.



Oh okay, if you say so.....However,  I think if you check around you will find the in the Holy Tradition of Orthodox Christianity, Jesus is understood to have been a Jew.

r
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« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2010, 03:27:18 PM »

In Orthodox Christianity we consider Jesus both fully God and fully Man.. The Man was Jewish. He was circumcised.
Jesus is from the lineage of David, because it gave birth to Mary.
Father of Jesus is God. That means Jesus has the same nationality as God.
God has no nationality.
Actually in Judaism, nationality is determined by the Maternal Line. if your Mom is Jewish, so are you... I am sure God knew this Smiley
He also practiced Judaism. He  was ritually circumcised ( which is definitive in terms of his Jewishness). He preached in the Synagogue. Do you think a Non-Jew would be allowed to do that in the 1st Century? He and his family observed the Holy Days of Judaism. He refers to the Jewish People as His People. He is referred to by his followers a Rabbi. He promulgates the views of a particular faction within Judaism ( Hillel School)  etc etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Come on.

That's it. Jesus is a jew for judaists. Jesus is God for orthodox christians.



Oh okay, if you say so.....However,  I think if you check around you will find the in the Holy Tradition of Orthodox Christianity, Jesus is understood to have been a Jew.

r

And, interestingly, according to our liturgical texts and teachings, the Lord was circumcised and presented in the Temple for the salvation of all mankind, not just the Jews, just as He was spit upon, betrayed, and crucified for the salvation of all, even those who did it to Him.
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« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2010, 05:04:06 PM »

In Orthodox Christianity we consider Jesus both fully God and fully Man.. The Man was Jewish. He was circumcised.
Jesus is from the lineage of David, because it gave birth to Mary.
Father of Jesus is God. That means Jesus has the same nationality as God.
God has no nationality.
Actually in Judaism, nationality is determined by the Maternal Line. if your Mom is Jewish, so are you... I am sure God knew this Smiley
He also practiced Judaism. He  was ritually circumcised ( which is definitive in terms of his Jewishness). He preached in the Synagogue. Do you think a Non-Jew would be allowed to do that in the 1st Century? He and his family observed the Holy Days of Judaism. He refers to the Jewish People as His People. He is referred to by his followers a Rabbi. He promulgates the views of a particular faction within Judaism ( Hillel School)  etc etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Come on.

That's it. Jesus is a jew for judaists. Jesus is God for orthodox christians.



Oh okay, if you say so.....However,  I think if you check around you will find the in the Holy Tradition of Orthodox Christianity, Jesus is understood to have been a Jew.

r

And, interestingly, according to our liturgical texts and teachings, the Lord was circumcised and presented in the Temple for the salvation of all mankind, not just the Jews, just as He was spit upon, betrayed, and crucified for the salvation of all, even those who did it to Him.

You're mixed up. The Lord's salvation is open to all, no question. It is also true that Jesus Christ was a Jew.

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« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2010, 05:07:53 PM »

In Orthodox Christianity we consider Jesus both fully God and fully Man.. The Man was Jewish. He was circumcised.
Jesus is from the lineage of David, because it gave birth to Mary.
Father of Jesus is God. That means Jesus has the same nationality as God.
God has no nationality.
Actually in Judaism, nationality is determined by the Maternal Line. if your Mom is Jewish, so are you... I am sure God knew this Smiley
He also practiced Judaism. He  was ritually circumcised ( which is definitive in terms of his Jewishness). He preached in the Synagogue. Do you think a Non-Jew would be allowed to do that in the 1st Century? He and his family observed the Holy Days of Judaism. He refers to the Jewish People as His People. He is referred to by his followers a Rabbi. He promulgates the views of a particular faction within Judaism ( Hillel School)  etc etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Come on.

That's it. Jesus is a jew for judaists. Jesus is God for orthodox christians.



Oh okay, if you say so.....However,  I think if you check around you will find the in the Holy Tradition of Orthodox Christianity, Jesus is understood to have been a Jew.

r

And, interestingly, according to our liturgical texts and teachings, the Lord was circumcised and presented in the Temple for the salvation of all mankind, not just the Jews, just as He was spit upon, betrayed, and crucified for the salvation of all, even those who did it to Him.

You're mixed up.


I think you misread me, especially since I had, up to this point, agreed with you.
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« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2010, 05:22:47 PM »

Even if the term "Jew" doesn't exactly fit a Galilean, I would think at least He would be some other form of Semite.  Undecided
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« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2010, 05:57:31 PM »

In Orthodox Christianity we consider Jesus both fully God and fully Man.. The Man was Jewish. He was circumcised.
Jesus is from the lineage of David, because it gave birth to Mary.
Father of Jesus is God. That means Jesus has the same nationality as God.
God has no nationality.
Actually in Judaism, nationality is determined by the Maternal Line. if your Mom is Jewish, so are you... I am sure God knew this Smiley
He also practiced Judaism. He  was ritually circumcised ( which is definitive in terms of his Jewishness). He preached in the Synagogue. Do you think a Non-Jew would be allowed to do that in the 1st Century? He and his family observed the Holy Days of Judaism. He refers to the Jewish People as His People. He is referred to by his followers a Rabbi. He promulgates the views of a particular faction within Judaism ( Hillel School)  etc etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Come on.

That's it. Jesus is a jew for judaists. Jesus is God for orthodox christians.



Oh okay, if you say so.....However,  I think if you check around you will find the in the Holy Tradition of Orthodox Christianity, Jesus is understood to have been a Jew.

r

And, interestingly, according to our liturgical texts and teachings, the Lord was circumcised and presented in the Temple for the salvation of all mankind, not just the Jews, just as He was spit upon, betrayed, and crucified for the salvation of all, even those who did it to Him.

You're mixed up.


I think you misread me, especially since I had, up to this point, agreed with you.

Okay.. Sorry... then I'm mixed up... I didnt quite understand the last sentence you wrote...
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« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2010, 06:24:37 PM »

Jews determine the nationality of the child by the mother. Other people to determine the nationality of the child by his father.

You are incorrect. Different cultures determine ethnicity in different ways. In a patriarchal society the lineage comes from the father. In a matriarchal society the lineage come from the mother. Amongst American Indians as a whole this is particularly confusing. One person could be 50% native American, but in certain tribes they are not recognized as such because the bloodline is thru the wrong parent. Whereas another person could be 1/16th native American and is considered "more Indian" because they just have to prove they have an ancestor from the tribe. So the 1/2 amerindian person is "not indian" and the 1/16th amerindian person is "indian."

I agree with the intent of what you're saying but, as someone with a BA in anthropology, you have your terms a bit mixed up.  A patrilineal society determines lineage (eg "who is of the tribe") from the father; a patriarchal society is one where power and decision making is generally held by the male members.  Similarly, matrilineal societies trace ancestry through the mother but matriarchal societies consolidate power through the female members of society.  It is, I think, still believed that there were no true 100% matriarchal societies amongst the post-Contact tribes but there were certainly ones that shared power far more than Europeans did at the time.

So, in this case, the Jews were matrilineal but patriarchal.  Smiley
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« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2010, 04:20:40 AM »

Thanks, I got my terms mixed up. NW tribes were pretty matriarchal. Especially when you take into account the tribal religions. Even here in the NW we had a great deal of diversity, Oregon alone had 14 language families. Much of the native heritage of the NW is lost though, so we won't really ever have a complete picture of societies here.

I don't have anything beyond a GED and a 9th grade education, I am hardly an expert. I am mostly going on my connections within Amerindian culture. I believe it is Sia that has the BA in anthropology.
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« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2010, 05:02:12 PM »

Even if the term "Jew" doesn't exactly fit a Galilean, I would think at least He would be some other form of Semite.  Undecided
One of Jesus' ancestors was Rahab, a Canaanite, and Canaan was a son of Ham. So Jesus would also be at least partially Hamite.
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« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2010, 07:03:39 PM »

Even if the term "Jew" doesn't exactly fit a Galilean, I would think at least He would be some other form of Semite.  Undecided
One of Jesus' ancestors was Rahab, a Canaanite, and Canaan was a son of Ham. So Jesus would also be at least partially Hamite.

Isn't this assuming that the bloodline was matrilineal though?
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« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2010, 07:29:04 PM »

Even if the term "Jew" doesn't exactly fit a Galilean, I would think at least He would be some other form of Semite.  Undecided
One of Jesus' ancestors was Rahab, a Canaanite, and Canaan was a son of Ham. So Jesus would also be at least partially Hamite.

Isn't this assuming that the bloodline was matrilineal though?
Matrilineality is a cultural construction. I'm talking genetically (insofar as speaking about "Hamites" and "Semites" makes sense genetically, which it may in fact not).
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