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Author Topic: Old Calendarists and Russian Old Believers  (Read 3092 times) Average Rating: 0
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searn77
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« on: November 22, 2010, 05:56:01 PM »

I was just wondering if there's any type of communion between any of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions and Russian Old Believers? I know there are some Old Believers that have priests and bishops so I was just wondering if any of them have a relationship to any Old Calendarists?
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Let us the faithful now come together to praise our father, protector and teacher the pillar of the Orthodox faith and firm defender of piety even the wondrous hierarch Philaret and let us glorify our Saviour Who has granted us his incorrupt relics as a manifest sign of his sanctity.
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 06:35:17 PM »

I was just wondering if there's any type of communion between any of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions and Russian Old Believers? I know there are some Old Believers that have priests and bishops so I was just wondering if any of them have a relationship to any Old Calendarists?

A group of Old Believers joined the ROCOR and had their own Bishop until his recent repose.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
searn77
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 06:49:47 PM »

I was just wondering if there's any type of communion between any of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions and Russian Old Believers? I know there are some Old Believers that have priests and bishops so I was just wondering if any of them have a relationship to any Old Calendarists?

A group of Old Believers joined the ROCOR and had their own Bishop until his recent repose.

Yea I've heard about them in Erie. But I was wondering if any Old Believers had communion or any interaction really with any Old Calendarist groups like the Synod of Milan for example?
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Let us the faithful now come together to praise our father, protector and teacher the pillar of the Orthodox faith and firm defender of piety even the wondrous hierarch Philaret and let us glorify our Saviour Who has granted us his incorrupt relics as a manifest sign of his sanctity.
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 06:51:47 PM »

A group of Old Believers joined the ROCOR. . .

They are simply Yedinovyertsy, aren't they?
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 08:01:16 PM »

A group of Old Believers joined the ROCOR. . .

They are simply Yedinovyertsy, aren't they?

Yes, I believe that is correct, making them more "Old Ritualists" than true Old Believers.
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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2010, 11:57:59 AM »

I was just wondering if there's any type of communion between any of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions and Russian Old Believers? I know there are some Old Believers that have priests and bishops so I was just wondering if any of them have a relationship to any Old Calendarists?

A group of Old Believers joined the ROCOR and had their own Bishop until his recent repose.

I believe they have another Old Rite bishop as well.
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Andrew21091
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 12:56:22 PM »

I believe they have another Old Rite bishop as well.

You are probably thinking of His Grace John, Bishop of Caracas and South America. He was consecrated at the Church of the Nativity and he was also the secretary for the late Bishop Daniel of Erie.







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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 01:09:18 PM »



Quote
You are probably thinking of His Grace John, Bishop of Caracas and South America. He was consecrated at the Church of the Nativity and he was also the secretary for the late Bishop Daniel of Erie.





Yes, he is the one I meant. What a gorgeous lestovka!!
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Jonathan Gress
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2010, 01:32:04 AM »

Actually, the Yedinovertsy strictly speaking came over from the old rite to the official Church around 1800, after the Church and this group of Old Ritualists agreed in principle that the two groups were not separated on matters of faith, but only ritual. However, the Church had not yet lifted the anathemas imposed on the old rite in the wake of the Raskol rebellion. So the Church hierarchy was not as accommodating to the yedinovertsy as they should have been, and the latter had to make several changes to conform to the Church's standard. For this reason, many Old Ritualists continued to live separate from the Church.

The Erie group came to the Russian Church Abroad much more recently, after the ROCA synod officially lifted the anathemas on the old rite in 1971. Up until then, they had a separate hierarchy from the Church.

Old Believer is the term preferred by the Old Ritualists themselves, because unlike the official Church, they believe that their differences in ritual do constitute differences in faith. There is no meaningful distinction between Old Believers and Old Ritualists within that group.

There is an important distinction, however, between the "popovtsy", Old Ritualists with their own hierarchy, and "bezpopovtsy", or "priestless", who believe that the whole hierarchy fell away from the faith under Patriarch Nikon, and with it, apostolic succession.
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2010, 09:32:08 AM »

The Erie group came to the Russian Church Abroad much more recently, after the ROCA synod officially lifted the anathemas on the old rite in 1971. Up until then, they had a separate hierarchy from the Church.

http://rocorstudies.org/?sid=130&aid=11362&idpage - this source says it was in 1974 and that they had no hierarchy.
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Michał
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« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2010, 12:28:19 PM »

I believe they have another Old Rite bishop as well.

You are probably thinking of His Grace John, Bishop of Caracas and South America. He was consecrated at the Church of the Nativity. . .

He was consecrated at an Old Rite church, but I don't think he's an Old Rite bishop. As far as I know, currently there is no bishop of Erie.
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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2010, 12:39:01 PM »

The Erie group came to the Russian Church Abroad much more recently, after the ROCA synod officially lifted the anathemas on the old rite in 1971. Up until then, they had a separate hierarchy from the Church.

http://rocorstudies.org/?sid=130&aid=11362&idpage - this source says it was in 1974 and that they had no hierarchy.

Forgive me, I was mistaken. I thought they were "popovtsy", but this is not true.
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2010, 03:29:59 AM »

Actually, the Yedinovertsy strictly speaking came over from the old rite to the official Church around 1800, after the Church and this group of Old Ritualists agreed in principle that the two groups were not separated on matters of faith, but only ritual. However, the Church had not yet lifted the anathemas imposed on the old rite in the wake of the Raskol rebellion. So the Church hierarchy was not as accommodating to the yedinovertsy as they should have been, and the latter had to make several changes to conform to the Church's standard. For this reason, many Old Ritualists continued to live separate from the Church.

The Erie group came to the Russian Church Abroad much more recently, after the ROCA synod officially lifted the anathemas on the old rite in 1971. Up until then, they had a separate hierarchy from the Church.

Old Believer is the term preferred by the Old Ritualists themselves, because unlike the official Church, they believe that their differences in ritual do constitute differences in faith. There is no meaningful distinction between Old Believers and Old Ritualists within that group.

There is an important distinction, however, between the "popovtsy", Old Ritualists with their own hierarchy, and "bezpopovtsy", or "priestless", who believe that the whole hierarchy fell away from the faith under Patriarch Nikon, and with it, apostolic succession.

I suppose it's almost inevitable that once Old Believers started challenging the patriarch and his reforms, so-called, they would similarly challenge one another's orthodoxy. In the early 20th century, enough Old Believers existed to have constituted one of the larger jurisdictions--had they not been fragmented into dozens of sub-groups.

There is something beautiful and moving about their fidelity to the older rites and practices, not to mention the value of having a window into our own religious history. I wish they had more parishes--or one nearer to me, at any rate.
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2010, 06:29:17 PM »

I was just wondering if there's any type of communion between any of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions and Russian Old Believers? I know there are some Old Believers that have priests and bishops so I was just wondering if any of them have a relationship to any Old Calendarists?

There are two groups of Popovsti that have bishops and neither has communion with any Old Calendarists who though they often sympathize with them they still see as being "Nikonians"
1)The Belokrinitskaya (began in 1846 with Metropolitan Amvrosii who converted Old Orthodoxy after being a bishop in the Patriarchate of Constantinople)
2)Novozybkovskaya (begun by Archbishop Nikola (Pozdnev) and Bishop Stephan (Rastorguev) in September 1929). Currently they are not in communion and until recently there was a lot of polemics against the Belokrinitskaya by the Novozybkov. In recent years the schisms from the Novozybkov such as the "Slavo-Iberian" Old Orthodox have been resolved and resulted in the founding the of the Old Orthodox Church of Georgia which follows the Georgian Rite before the 18th Century Georgian liturgical reforms. http://www.oldorthodox.ge/ It will take time for the Novozybkovskaya and Belokrinitskaya to restore communion and unify but I think that with the recent cessation of polemics against St.Metropolian Amvrosii by the Novozybkovskaya there is real hope for such an event in the near future.

Having said all that, I gotta be honest I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the "Kirykites" (Extremist-Matthewite Schism, in my opinion) formal talks with the Russian Old-Orthodox Moscow Patriarchate AKA the Novozybkov Hierarchy which is headed by Patriarch Alexander. I really have had a hard time understanding how there can be intercommunion between them since the Kirykites follow the contemporary Greek Rite which according to Old Orthodoxy is not a legitimate expression of Orthodoxy but in fact is heterodoxy. I will not argue this here but am simply explaining how what for many "Nikonians" is simply the normative way of making Sign of the Cross, making the "seal" with three fingers (thumb, index, middle) is blasphemy to Old Believers because they believe the "seal" should be made with the two fingers (index and middle) representing the one person of our Lord in two natures because we are sealed in the Blood of the Lamb, we confess and seal ourselves with Christ Crucified and as Old Believers understand it this is the primary and original purpose of the Sign of the Cross. To seal oneself with the Trinity is to place the Trinity on the Cross which is blasphemy to an Old Believer. This is just one difference but I think that it is key to understanding the divide between Old Believers and "Nikonians" or mainstream Orthodox. Old Believers do not believe there is such as thing as separation between Ritual and Doctrine. Yes they do agree that there were different Rites but they believe there are key aspects or practices that are of Apostolic Tradition which are identical in all Rites that maintain fidelity to Apostolic Tradition.
Now, why the talks between the Old-Orthodox Patriarchate and Kirykite Metropolitanate. Here is an entry I found on the Kirykite website http://genuineorthodoxchurch.com/A_Time_Line_of_the_20th_and_21st_Centuries.htm
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2008 AD — Council of Athens, convened and presided over by Metropolitan Kirykos of Mesogaias, and attended by hierarchs and clergy representing Greece, Africa, Russia, Cyprus and Romania, enters into theological dialogue with the Novozybkov Old Rite Synod of Russia under Patriarch Alexander of Moscow.
Personally I think that Metropolitan Kirykos following the Matthewite belief that the Greek Church went immediately into schism and bereft of sacramental grace in 1924 with the implementation of the Calendar change is wanting to find out more about the Old Believer Popovsti (priested Old Believers) and their beliefs about the Russian Church going into heresy with the Nikonian reforms. But I really am at a loss as far as what the ultimate goal of these talks really is? I can only imagine that one group is hoping to convert the other?
http://www.churchgoc.org/gegonota/rdc2008.html


Also I read about the repentence, 2007, of a certain Belokrinitsky Hieromonk, Simeon (Durasova), who had previously stated in 2005 that he believed that the Belokrinitsky, Novozybkovsky, ROCA, and Greek Old Calendarists (not sure who exactly he meant be this) all were the Church.
http://www.staroobrad.ru/modules.php?name=Pages&pa=showpage&pid=89
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 06:33:05 PM by Lenexa » Logged
Lenexa
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2010, 06:59:08 PM »

I also wanted to clarify the use of the terms of the Edinoverie, Old Believers and Old Orthodox as they are thought of and used by Popovsti (Belokrinitskaya and Novozybkovskaya Hierarchy).
For the Popovsti the Edinoverie are not Old Believers and cannot be said to be faithful to the "Old Rite" or Old Orthodoxy because they have entered into union with the Nikonians and by their very name proclaimed themselves to be of one faith with the Nikonians who continued to persecute the Old Believers. A good example of this was Metropolitan Philaret (Drozdov) I quote from the wiki article on him:
Filaret was responsible for some of the worst offences towards the Old Believers, including the misappropriation of churches and the sealing of the altars at the churches of the Rogozhskoye Cemetery, which was the administrative and spiritual center of the Belokrinitskoe Soglasie Old Believers. Filaret was also directly involved in the imprisonment of Old Believer hierarchs and monastics.
I think that based on the history of persecution and that the whole point of the breaking of communion with the Nikonians who, as the Old Believers see it, entered into schism from the Church with their heretical reforms, was because the Nikonian reforms were not an acceptable confession of the Orthodox Faith. If they believe the reformed "Nikonian" right to be fully Orthodox why maintain the "Old Rite"? especially in a church that did not lift the anathemas on the "Old Rite" until 1971!? (ROCOR lifted the anathemas in 1974) For the Edinoverie to proclaim themselves to be of one faith with the Nikonians negates their right to call themselves Old Orthodox or Old Believers.
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searn77
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2010, 07:14:37 PM »

I also wanted to clarify the use of the terms of the Edinoverie, Old Believers and Old Orthodox as they are thought of and used by Popovsti (Belokrinitskaya and Novozybkovskaya Hierarchy).
For the Popovsti the Edinoverie are not Old Believers and cannot be said to be faithful to the "Old Rite" or Old Orthodoxy because they have entered into union with the Nikonians and by their very name proclaimed themselves to be of one faith with the Nikonians who continued to persecute the Old Believers. A good example of this was Metropolitan Philaret (Drozdov) I quote from the wiki article on him:
Filaret was responsible for some of the worst offences towards the Old Believers, including the misappropriation of churches and the sealing of the altars at the churches of the Rogozhskoye Cemetery, which was the administrative and spiritual center of the Belokrinitskoe Soglasie Old Believers. Filaret was also directly involved in the imprisonment of Old Believer hierarchs and monastics.
I think that based on the history of persecution and that the whole point of the breaking of communion with the Nikonians who, as the Old Believers see it, entered into schism from the Church with their heretical reforms, was because the Nikonian reforms were not an acceptable confession of the Orthodox Faith. If they believe the reformed "Nikonian" right to be fully Orthodox why maintain the "Old Rite"? especially in a church that did not lift the anathemas on the "Old Rite" until 1971!? (ROCOR lifted the anathemas in 1974) For the Edinoverie to proclaim themselves to be of one faith with the Nikonians negates their right to call themselves Old Orthodox or Old Believers.

Thanks a lot! That definitely answers my question and a whole lot more  Smiley
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Let us the faithful now come together to praise our father, protector and teacher the pillar of the Orthodox faith and firm defender of piety even the wondrous hierarch Philaret and let us glorify our Saviour Who has granted us his incorrupt relics as a manifest sign of his sanctity.
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