Author Topic: Pre-Schism Western Saints  (Read 1406 times)

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Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2015, 06:16:07 PM »
Actually, I got a little passion tweaked t'other day.
Seems American saints were all born in Russia! Such hubris!
I had to say something like baulder-dash!
Just because we don't have a country that tortures,
maims and kills (OK, Native Americans, African Americans don't count, at least muchly in Orthodoxy)
it still seems more than coincidental that smiles displayed while mentioning this "fact".
More than enough chauvinism, both on my part for being a proud American as well as those
who claim "all saint knowledge".
No, it sits not well with me.
St. Jakob Netsvetov was born in Atka, Alaska. He was half-Russian, half-Aleut/Unangan. Also, St. Peter the Aleut, assuming he actually existed.


Doesn't count, Alaska wasn't made a state until 1867. St. Jakob died in 1864. Same with St. Peter, Alaska wasn't apart of America yet.

If you are going to pick nits, Alaska became a state in 1959.


I was talking about The Alaska Purchase, my bad
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2015, 08:07:04 PM »
Well it wasn't my intention for this tread to take a dump. It wasn't my intention for people to debate over what a roll model is or a saint they could look up to. I guess I didn't use the correct verb age for that, you get my point, no need to bicker for the sake of bickering.

The whole idea was to help the westerns come closer too and or open their eyes to western saints they may not have known about because saints are an inspiration to us all and knowing about saints of our ancestors nations can be even more inspiring.

THAT IT, end of story.... Can we stop bickering and nitpicking now for whatever reasons and get back on topic, thanks.

Did ethnicity or national origin make any saint holier?

The point is to give people a roll model, someone you can relate to. People look up to their own saints in addition to the other saints.

The saints belong to the Church, so their is no "my" saint or "your" saint due to ethnicity or national origin.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2015, 08:08:48 PM »
"oh, I know who St. Olaf is, in fact, I have an icon of him".

Dorothy Zbornak says: "Please, Minnesotan, spare us your St. Olaf stories!"



Yeah, I'd consider St. Herman of Alaska to have been as American as he was Russian. He was born in Russia, but in self-sacrificing love, he thought of Alaska as his home and the Natives as his people.

Well said.  St. Herman is as American as St. Patrick is Irish.  In that vein, it's worth noting that there were plenty of non-European saints who helped evangelize the West and are still highly revered there, like St. Verena and St. Maurice of Switzerland.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2015, 08:23:23 PM »
St. José Muñoz-Cortes already is a Saint, he was martyred, however he was born in Chile
 

When was he glorified?
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Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2015, 08:33:19 PM »
Well it wasn't my intention for this tread to take a dump. It wasn't my intention for people to debate over what a roll model is or a saint they could look up to. I guess I didn't use the correct verb age for that, you get my point, no need to bicker for the sake of bickering.

The whole idea was to help the westerns come closer too and or open their eyes to western saints they may not have known about because saints are an inspiration to us all and knowing about saints of our ancestors nations can be even more inspiring.

THAT IT, end of story.... Can we stop bickering and nitpicking now for whatever reasons and get back on topic, thanks.

Did ethnicity or national origin make any saint holier?

The point is to give people a roll model, someone you can relate to. People look up to their own saints in addition to the other saints.

The saints belong to the Church, so their is no "my" saint or "your" saint due to ethnicity or national origin.



Just stop, you don't get it
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2015, 08:40:37 PM »
Well it wasn't my intention for this tread to take a dump. It wasn't my intention for people to debate over what a roll model is or a saint they could look up to. I guess I didn't use the correct verb age for that, you get my point, no need to bicker for the sake of bickering.

The whole idea was to help the westerns come closer too and or open their eyes to western saints they may not have known about because saints are an inspiration to us all and knowing about saints of our ancestors nations can be even more inspiring.

THAT IT, end of story.... Can we stop bickering and nitpicking now for whatever reasons and get back on topic, thanks.

Did ethnicity or national origin make any saint holier?

The point is to give people a roll model, someone you can relate to. People look up to their own saints in addition to the other saints.

The saints belong to the Church, so their is no "my" saint or "your" saint due to ethnicity or national origin.



Just stop, you don't get it



Actually I am pretty sure Hecma gets it just fine.

You want people to have role models........we do.

Converts do.....alas those role models are not based on them living where we did....but rather sharing internal mentalities that we each individually have.


Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2015, 08:41:14 PM »
St. José Muñoz-Cortes already is a Saint, he was martyred, however he was born in Chile
 

When was he glorified?

You don't need to wait for someone to be glorified on paper before you can venerate them as a saint. Let me clarify for you what I meant, the man is a martyr, I consider him a Saint. I also consider Fr. Seraphim Rose, Elder Joseph the Hesychast and Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi as Saints.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 08:42:17 PM by Peacemaker »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2015, 09:32:43 PM »
St. José Muñoz-Cortes already is a Saint, he was martyred, however he was born in Chile
 

When was he glorified?

You don't need to wait for someone to be glorified on paper before you can venerate them as a saint. Let me clarify for you what I meant, the man is a martyr, I consider him a Saint. I also consider Fr. Seraphim Rose, Elder Joseph the Hesychast and Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi as Saints.



That's great that you choose to venerate them, but, in the context of this thread, there must be full disclosure.  Both Elders Joseph are Greek.  So, not "Western".  And if you are so passionate about saints that haven't been glorified on paper, why didn't you write St. Seraphim of Platina, St. Joseph the Hesychast, or St. Joseph of Vatopaidi?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2015, 09:55:55 PM »
Thinking about it, I do think Peacemaker's got a point. Perhaps it's shallow of me, but I was excited to find out that Western Europe does have an actual history claimed by today's Orthodox Church and it wasn't "just Catholic," so to speak. Though my inquiry was already started at that point, I'd be lying if I said that finding out that St. Patrick and others are venerated in Orthodoxy didn't help me on an emotional comfort level. I think that's all Peacemaker is saying.

Of course, all this means diddly squat to, for example, a Pacific Islander who might be looking into Orthodoxy. So we Western Europeans should probably temper our ethnic pride.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 09:59:41 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2015, 10:46:34 PM »
Thinking about it, I do think Peacemaker's got a point. Perhaps it's shallow of me, but I was excited to find out that Western Europe does have an actual history claimed by today's Orthodox Church and it wasn't "just Catholic," so to speak. Though my inquiry was already started at that point, I'd be lying if I said that finding out that St. Patrick and others are venerated in Orthodoxy didn't help me on an emotional comfort level. I think that's all Peacemaker is saying.

Of course, all this means diddly squat to, for example, a Pacific Islander who might be looking into Orthodoxy. So we Western Europeans should probably temper our ethnic pride.

Wait - why should we be any different than the rest of the Orthodox?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2015, 10:51:06 PM »
Thinking about it, I do think Peacemaker's got a point. Perhaps it's shallow of me, but I was excited to find out that Western Europe does have an actual history claimed by today's Orthodox Church and it wasn't "just Catholic," so to speak. Though my inquiry was already started at that point, I'd be lying if I said that finding out that St. Patrick and others are venerated in Orthodoxy didn't help me on an emotional comfort level. I think that's all Peacemaker is saying.

Of course, all this means diddly squat to, for example, a Pacific Islander who might be looking into Orthodoxy. So we Western Europeans should probably temper our ethnic pride.

Wait - why should we be any different than the rest of the Orthodox?
I think everybody should temper their ethnic pride. But if we must have it, we should remember that not every nation has Saints of their own to be proud of.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2015, 11:04:30 PM »
Thinking about it, I do think Peacemaker's got a point. Perhaps it's shallow of me, but I was excited to find out that Western Europe does have an actual history claimed by today's Orthodox Church and it wasn't "just Catholic," so to speak. Though my inquiry was already started at that point, I'd be lying if I said that finding out that St. Patrick and others are venerated in Orthodoxy didn't help me on an emotional comfort level. I think that's all Peacemaker is saying.

Of course, all this means diddly squat to, for example, a Pacific Islander who might be looking into Orthodoxy. So we Western Europeans should probably temper our ethnic pride.

Wait - why should we be any different than the rest of the Orthodox?
I think everybody should temper their ethnic pride. But if we must have it, we should remember that not every nation has Saints of their own to be proud of.

Maybe the nations that already have lots of saints should consider "donating" some of their own to the nations that don't have any yet. This has already happened, sort of (for instance, the passage of time essentially made St. Patrick an Irishman even though in life he was actually British).

On the other hand, there's no real way to ask a Russian saint if he wants to posthumously switch nationalities and become Tongan or Maori, is there? But if the people of Tonga develop a strong attachment to a particular Russian or Western saint who is not nearly as well-remembered in his/her own country, he/she might not mind switching.

This whole suggestion is kind of tongue in cheek, though.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 11:05:27 PM by Minnesotan »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2015, 11:08:56 PM »
You do make a good point, though.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2015, 01:16:37 AM »
I'm not sure if the Great Schism actually exists except as a geographical difference.

Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2015, 03:51:00 AM »
St. José Muñoz-Cortes already is a Saint, he was martyred, however he was born in Chile
 

When was he glorified?

You don't need to wait for someone to be glorified on paper before you can venerate them as a saint. Let me clarify for you what I meant, the man is a martyr, I consider him a Saint. I also consider Fr. Seraphim Rose, Elder Joseph the Hesychast and Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi as Saints.



That's great that you choose to venerate them, but, in the context of this thread, there must be full disclosure.  Both Elders Joseph are Greek.  So, not "Western".  And if you are so passionate about saints that haven't been glorified on paper, why didn't you write St. Seraphim of Platina, St. Joseph the Hesychast, or St. Joseph of Vatopaidi?

You really enjoy taking things out of their context, don't you...
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2015, 04:07:22 AM »
Maybe the nations that already have lots of saints should consider "donating" some of their own to the nations that don't have any yet. This has already happened, sort of (for instance, the passage of time essentially made St. Patrick an Irishman even though in life he was actually British).

On the other hand, there's no real way to ask a Russian saint if he wants to posthumously switch nationalities and become Tongan or Maori, is there? But if the people of Tonga develop a strong attachment to a particular Russian or Western saint who is not nearly as well-remembered in his/her own country, he/she might not mind switching.

This whole suggestion is kind of tongue in cheek, though.

I think nations can pick who they want.  There are many nations, England included, who have St. George as their patron saint.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2015, 04:39:25 AM »
You really enjoy taking things out of their context, don't you...

How so? 

When you wrote in your own thread about Pre-Schism Western Saints:
I find it amazing how many of us are westerners but don't know about or venerate our western orthodox saints. Just as the Greeks have their Greek saints for influence and encouragement and the Russians theirs. We also have ours, saints of our descending countries. Its a nice thing to have in my opinion.

Then you proceeded in writing how the Saints of North America, you know, these Saints:


shouldn't be counted as American Saints, due to political geography and timelines.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2015, 06:40:17 AM »
Beautiful.  My name saint, William, is a pre-schism Western saint.  However I regard Ss. Athanasius as a co patron.

My home chapel has icons of Ss. William and Anna the mother of Vladimir the Great (the patron of my mother), Ss. Basil, Nicholas, and Seraphim of Sarov, and a rare set of Syriac and Coptic icons of Jesus Christ Pantocrator, and Christ and the Virgin Mary, and the Theophany.   I really need an icon of St. Athanasius though.  I have a poster of the myrhh streaming icon of St. Nicholas.

But regarding pre schism Western saints, St. William, St. Odo of Cluny and a few others of that era around the time of the Eigth Ecumenical Council are as late as you can safely go.   So sadly we didn't get St. Bruno, the founder of the Carthusians, who struck me as being still under the influence of Orthodox thought.  But he was born just a few years too late.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2015, 07:01:18 AM »
Beautiful.  My name saint, William, is a pre-schism Western saint.  However I regard Ss. Athanasius as a co patron.

My home chapel has icons of Ss. William and Anna the mother of Vladimir the Great (the patron of my mother), Ss. Basil, Nicholas, and Seraphim of Sarov, and a rare set of Syriac and Coptic icons of Jesus Christ Pantocrator, and Christ and the Virgin Mary, and the Theophany.   I really need an icon of St. Athanasius though.  I have a poster of the myrhh streaming icon of St. Nicholas.

Neat! Do you have a picture handy? :)

But regarding pre schism Western saints, St. William, St. Odo of Cluny and a few others of that era around the time of the Eigth Ecumenical Council are as late as you can safely go.   So sadly we didn't get St. Bruno, the founder of the Carthusians, who struck me as being still under the influence of Orthodox thought.  But he was born just a few years too late.
Yeah, I love the Carthusians, too.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2015, 07:52:35 AM »

Of course, all this means diddly squat to, for example, a Pacific Islander who might be looking into Orthodoxy. So we Western Europeans should probably temper our ethnic pride.

Yet there is an Orthodox presence in places like Indonesia (the world's largest Moslem democracy), New Zealand, Fiji, and Tonga. Fr Daniel Byantoro is a native Indonesian, converted to Orthodoxy from Islam. From little things, big things grow.
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Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2015, 08:05:47 AM »
You really enjoy taking things out of their context, don't you...

How so? 

When you wrote in your own thread about Pre-Schism Western Saints:
I find it amazing how many of us are westerners but don't know about or venerate our western orthodox saints. Just as the Greeks have their Greek saints for influence and encouragement and the Russians theirs. We also have ours, saints of our descending countries. Its a nice thing to have in my opinion.

Then you proceeded in writing how the Saints of North America, you know, these Saints:


shouldn't be counted as American Saints, due to political geography and timelines.

How about we agree to disagree.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2015, 08:40:23 AM »

Of course, all this means diddly squat to, for example, a Pacific Islander who might be looking into Orthodoxy. So we Western Europeans should probably temper our ethnic pride.

Yet there is an Orthodox presence in places like Indonesia (the world's largest Moslem democracy), New Zealand, Fiji, and Tonga. Fr Daniel Byantoro is a native Indonesian, converted to Orthodoxy from Islam. From little things, big things grow.
Yes indeed :)
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2015, 09:36:27 AM »
You really enjoy taking things out of their context, don't you...

How so? 

When you wrote in your own thread about Pre-Schism Western Saints:
I find it amazing how many of us are westerners but don't know about or venerate our western orthodox saints. Just as the Greeks have their Greek saints for influence and encouragement and the Russians theirs. We also have ours, saints of our descending countries. Its a nice thing to have in my opinion.

Then you proceeded in writing how the Saints of North America, you know, these Saints:


shouldn't be counted as American Saints, due to political geography and timelines.

How about we agree to disagree.
Why not?
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2015, 10:43:08 AM »
Wait - why should we be any different than the rest of the Orthodox?

Because you have the chance for a fresh start.  Isn't everyone always chiding the Orthodox for being too ethnocentric and not catholic enough in their worldview?  Why deliberately walk into that pit if you have the opportunity to transcend it?

I think nations can pick who they want.  There are many nations, England included, who have St. George as their patron saint.

Very, very good point.  The Theotokos is the patroness of Albania (with St. Nicholas a very close second), St. George  is the patron of Ethiopia, Georgia, and a number of other Orthodox countries, St. John the Baptist is one of the patrons of your island (Puerto Rico)...I don't think a saint has to be from a given country - or even have visited that place during their earthly life - in order to develop a real and living relationship with the people there.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2015, 12:31:40 PM »
Wait - why should we be any different than the rest of the Orthodox?

Because you have the chance for a fresh start.  Isn't everyone always chiding the Orthodox for being too ethnocentric and not catholic enough in their worldview?  Why deliberately walk into that pit if you have the opportunity to transcend it?

Good point. Those that do not consider Orthodoxy to be ethnocentric are a privileged group, consisting mostly of folks that do not care, and they are further subdivided into belonging to a particular ethnic group, usually consisting of their own church affiliation. At least that is my observation. OK, we have Greeks going to a Russian based church. Big whoop. If you feel your passions aroused by this post, check yourself!
If you don't believe me, consider the Greeks in Turkey, or all the Balkans, or most of the stupidity displayed by much of history.
Self-identity is an important item for the individual; ethnic pride is one of those elements, so to have a saint from that region/language group/ethnicity is more than helpful. Such is so self-evidnet, this post should be ignored.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2015, 07:13:07 PM »
Quote
icons of Ss. William and Anna the mother of Vladimir the Great

wgw, where did you get the information that the mother of St Vladimir is a saint?  ???
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2015, 03:48:30 PM »

He may be confusing mother with grandmother.

St. Prince Volodymyr's grandmother was St. Olga....as you probably know.  ;)
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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2015, 03:51:24 PM »
Beautiful.  My name saint, William, is a pre-schism Western saint.  However I regard Ss. Athanasius as a co patron.

My home chapel has icons of Ss. William and Anna the mother of Vladimir the Great (the patron of my mother),...

LBK had a point.

St. Volodymyr's (Vladimir's) parents were Svyatoslav and Malusha.

I have no idea who William and Anna might be.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Pre-Schism Western Saints
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2015, 12:20:01 AM »
Sorry, I like many people get St. Anna's issue confused:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden

As for St. William:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Gellone
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