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Author Topic: Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people  (Read 3964 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 19, 2010, 05:10:08 PM »

Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people

"By Sarah Delaney
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI and other church leaders said it was the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay..."

Full Article: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1004736.htm

I am sure this will eventually have to be moved to "politics" but I thought we might start out here.
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2010, 05:16:27 PM »

One thing I admire about the Roman Church is it's tendency not to shy away from sensitive political issues and put itself out there in the public sphere, for better or for worse.
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2010, 05:16:43 PM »

Diabolical.
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2010, 05:20:44 PM »

Diabolical.
LOL
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2010, 10:50:59 PM »


 Grin
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2010, 11:05:07 PM »

Guaranteed...yep, to rise, my medical coverage goes up another $80.00 US dollars a month come 1/1/11...
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2010, 12:17:56 AM »

Guaranteed...yep, to rise, my medical coverage goes up another $80.00 US dollars a month come 1/1/11...


Mine is going up about the same amount, around $1066 per year.  Sad
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 04:30:30 AM »

I agree with the Pope.  It's just shameful that, since my husband lost his job and health insurance in '08, we haven't been able to get anything since.  Rather than a group plan which takes everyone at basic rates, his current job only provides a stipend, which may or may not get paid, and which isn't near enough to pay for family rates with maternity and preexisting conditions.  Meaning we haven't been going to the doctor as often as we need to, because we can't afford it.  Tongue  I have high hopes for the health care reform bill, but it has to fully go into effect first....
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 07:52:05 AM »

Gotta love that pope. Grin
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2010, 08:21:17 AM »

I agree with the Pope. 
So does this Canadian  Cheesy.
Quote
It's just shameful that, since my husband lost his job and health insurance in '08, we haven't been able to get anything since.  Rather than a group plan which takes everyone at basic rates, his current job only provides a stipend, which may or may not get paid, and which isn't near enough to pay for family rates with maternity and preexisting conditions.  Meaning we haven't been going to the doctor as often as we need to, because we can't afford it.  Tongue  I have high hopes for the health care reform bill, but it has to fully go into effect first....
Our system is far from perfect. Every Canadian I know complains about something - wishing that this or that was also covered, or that wait times would be shorter, etc. (usually the complaints are just the "McDonald's-I-want-it-now-and-my-way Syndrome"). However, I have yet to hear a Canadian say to his doctor, "I oppose a government run insurance system. Please send your bill directly to me." As long as any system is run by government, there will be flaws. But we do the best we can with what we've got. Sounds pretty Orthodox to me  Smiley.

I've heard all about the issues in the US from my American friends and relatives. All I do is describe what I have and let you Americans deal with the politics of it.
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2010, 09:01:30 AM »

How absolutely wonderful if finally the United States were to catch up with the rest of the Christian world and provide accessible good health care for all its people  --- Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Spain France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Greece, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc., etc., etc.

It has been absolutely disgraceful that this wealthy nation has neglected a Christian duty which all other Christian nations perform.
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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 10:05:55 AM »

How absolutely wonderful if finally the United States were to catch up with the rest of the Christian world and provide accessible good health care for all its people  --- Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Spain France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Greece, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc., etc., etc.

It has been absolutely disgraceful that this wealthy nation has neglected a Christian duty which all other Christian nations perform.

We can also be more socialistic, atheist/muslim, lower birth rate.... Wait, rest of world doesn't mean correct thinking.

Forced charity is theft.
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2010, 10:17:28 AM »

How absolutely wonderful if finally the United States were to catch up with the rest of the Christian world and provide accessible good health care for all its people  --- Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Spain France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Greece, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc., etc., etc.

It has been absolutely disgraceful that this wealthy nation has neglected a Christian duty which all other Christian nations perform.

We can also be more socialistic, atheist/muslim, lower birth rate.... Wait, rest of world doesn't mean correct thinking.

Forced charity is theft.

Do they use your taxes to finance your education system?  Or is that left for families to arrange themselves?

How about your military and all the overseas wars?  Is that all financed by taking taxes from people?
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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2010, 10:22:56 AM »

I would recommend a reading of the Sermon on the Mount and our Lord's advocacy of care for the sick and the hungry and then I would recommend a study of the greatest Christian city the Church has known, that of Constantinople, whose societal outworking of Matthew 25: 31-46  resulted in a very extensive system of health care, geriatric care, care of orphans, provision of food, funded by public taxation.
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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2010, 10:37:02 AM »

Forced charity is theft.

Would God have no right to obligate us to charity?
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2010, 10:41:39 AM »

How absolutely wonderful if finally the United States were to catch up with the rest of the Christian world and provide accessible good health care for all its people  --- Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Spain France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Greece, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc., etc., etc.

It has been absolutely disgraceful that this wealthy nation has neglected a Christian duty which all other Christian nations perform.

I agree. I believe that it is folly to claim to be in support of the right to life and coldly behave as if that societal obligation ends at birth. If I say more I surely will dip into politics, but at this point I will stop. The late Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago preached extensively about the 'social fabric of life' and the position of the Pope and others is not a new development.
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2010, 10:55:35 AM »

May I be allowed to recycle an old post of mine?  I wrote it years ago in
2003 for Indiana.  I don't think I have ever presented it on this Forum before.

-oOo-

There seems little point that I should have any continuing involvement in
this debate since you are arguing it on American premises and not Christian
ones.

I am speaking as an outsider, as one who is not American, and while you have
the notion that your principles on these matters are grounded in
Christianity, they are not. They are grounded in the mindset and ideas
peculiar to your local culture. What you write has no necessary connection
(apart from your membership of the Orthodox Church) with Orthodox
Christianity. It has every connection with the American mindset.

That is not meant to be an affront to you or to any other Americans on list.
After all, my own ideas on this are themselves grounded in my own New
Zealand culture which is derived from that of Great Britain, but I would
contend that my country's way of dealing with issues of poverty and the like
is a much better outworking of Christianity than the American way. In other
words Christian principles are more deeply embedded in New Zealand's social
and political structures than they are in the US.


This country, and many Commonwealth countries, is orientated towards the
common weal. We see the duty of Government as primarily that of managing the
country for the common good of the entire populace. In order to achieve this
common weal we cheerfully hand over our taxes. And while there is nothing to
prevent a man becoming immensely rich there is, thank God, a government
policy which protects a man from becoming obscenely poor.

But this is *not* the view of American government, at least among those who
hold to the original founding of the US. Your Declaration of Independence
specifically states, "...Governments are instituted among men to preserve
these rights..." In other words, you did *not* see government as managing
the country or imposing a blue print; you saw it as the means to guarantee
people liberty. It is a very different concept.

Neither concept of government is in and of itself Christian, but I would
argue that government established for the common weal is more Christian than
government focused on personal liberty.

It is a major mistake however to assume that the American abhorrence of
Government involvement and the even greater American abhorrence of
Government taxation (whether in general or for poverty relief or medical
care) has anything to do with Christian principles, and it is really very
distressing to find people looking for scriptural and patristic
argumentation to justify their own culturally conditioned attitudes towards
it. Perhaps a meditation on Romans 13 and Saint Paul's teaching on taxation
would be useful?

Now the NZ and Canadian approach is all based on a legacy of English
church/state established relationships with a dollop of 19th century
Methodist good works thrown in and this has spread out to the Commonwealth .
I can see how the American culture of separation of Church and State can be
horrified by the thought of actively putting someone on welfare or of
providing a man with free health care.

But for us social security provision as a safety net to help the most needy,
and a free health care system for all is a Christian response and a
Christian use of our taxes.

Now as Church and State drift further apart it remains to be seen if that
partnership will continue but I still argue that we in New Zealand (and
perhaps slightly less now in the UK) enjoy a culture where people have
invested into the state the outworking of its Christian principles  as the
basis of its law and care for its citizens.

In my experience, the people who extol the dignity and sense of self-worth
to be found in grinding labour for miserable pay, no health care and no
future have themselves experienced none of those things.

For days now we've been locked in this debate about economics,health,
welfare and the poor. But, as this is a site dedicated to Orthodox Christian
spirituality, I think both sides should make more reference to Scriptural
and traditional moral teaching on the topic. Do the principles and values
advocated by the Neo-classical Capitalists here (self-reliance,
entrepreneurship, success as the achievement of wealth, etc.) mesh with what
we read in Scripture, the Fathers of the Church and the Saints? Or do they
contradict the sources of our faith?

Can one be a true Christian and a social Darwinist?

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2010, 11:09:14 AM »

Forced charity is theft.

Would God have no right to obligate us to charity?

When did the state become God?
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2010, 11:10:06 AM »

May I be allowed to recycle an old post of mine?  I wrote it years ago in
2003 for Indiana.  I don't think I have ever presented it on this Forum before.

-oOo-

There seems little point that I should have any continuing involvement in
this debate since you are arguing it on American premises and not Christian
ones.
....
Do the principles and values
advocated by the Neo-classical Capitalists here (self-reliance,
entrepreneurship, success as the achievement of wealth, etc.) mesh with what
we read in Scripture, the Fathers of the Church and the Saints? Or do they
contradict the sources of our faith?

Can one be a true Christian and a social Darwinist?

Fr Ambrose

In America, perhaps the first one to try to unite the two was Yale University political scientist William G. Sumner (d. 1910), an ordained priest in the Episcopal Church, and advocate of Social Darwinism.
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2010, 11:11:30 AM »

Forced charity is theft.

Would God have no right to obligate us to charity?

When did the state become God?
You mentioned forced charity. I mentioned God's obligations towards charity ("forced charity") placed upon humanity.
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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2010, 11:16:53 AM »

How absolutely wonderful if finally the United States were to catch up with the rest of the Christian world and provide accessible good health care for all its people  --- Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Spain France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Greece, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc., etc., etc.

It has been absolutely disgraceful that this wealthy nation has neglected a Christian duty which all other Christian nations perform.

We can also be more socialistic, atheist/muslim, lower birth rate.... Wait, rest of world doesn't mean correct thinking.

Forced charity is theft.

Do they use your taxes to finance your education system?  Or is that left for families to arrange themselves?

How about your military and all the overseas wars?  Is that all financed by taking taxes from people?

And look how the US public schools fair... outstanding aren't they. People pay beyond their means still to send their children to a private school. Yet, public schools can be useful for education when it is supported by the community and not relying on state bureaucracy.

The military is part of the fundamental aspect of the military, i.e. To protect and defend the citizens.

Perhaps all food should be paid for, too? Housing? Plumbing? Electricity? We share everything essential? Eventually we have nothing and those in power have everything.

That's why loving charity is the fundamental aspect of community support.
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2010, 11:18:23 AM »

Forced charity is theft.

Would God have no right to obligate us to charity?

When did the state become God?
You mentioned forced charity. I mentioned God's obligations towards charity ("forced charity") placed upon humanity.

Incorrect. God calls us to be charitable. Just like all commands from God, we have the freewill to object.
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2010, 11:19:30 AM »

Forced charity is theft.

Would God have no right to obligate us to charity?

When did the state become God?
You mentioned forced charity. I mentioned God's obligations towards charity ("forced charity") placed upon humanity.

Incorrect. God calls us to be charitable. Just like all commands from God, we have the freewill to object.
And you may object to commands from the government as well.
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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2010, 11:19:59 AM »

I would recommend a reading of the Sermon on the Mount and our Lord's advocacy of care for the sick and the hungry and then I would recommend a study of the greatest Christian city the Church has known, that of Constantinople, whose societal outworking of Matthew 25: 31-46  resulted in a very extensive system of health care, geriatric care, care of orphans, provision of food, funded by public taxation.


I will, and reflect on your words, Father.
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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2010, 11:21:18 AM »

Forced charity is theft.

Would God have no right to obligate us to charity?

When did the state become God?
You mentioned forced charity. I mentioned God's obligations towards charity ("forced charity") placed upon humanity.

Incorrect. God calls us to be charitable. Just like all commands from God, we have the freewill to object.
And you may object to commands from the government as well.

You don't have the same free will to object to paying taxes.

Forced charity is meaningless to God. Giving in love is not.
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« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2010, 11:48:48 AM »

I would recommend a reading of the Sermon on the Mount and our Lord's advocacy of care for the sick and the hungry and then I would recommend a study of the greatest Christian city the Church has known, that of Constantinople, whose societal outworking of Matthew 25: 31-46  resulted in a very extensive system of health care, geriatric care, care of orphans, provision of food, funded by public taxation.


I will, and reflect on your words, Father.

Father, I don't dare deny God's command for care of the sick and poor.

The problem, is I just don't trust the state to do this for me. A combination of state bureaucracy and corruption have shown themselves to depreciate healthcare.

While I do distrust a government healthcare system to provide adequately to those in need, I am a full supporter of church hospitals, charitable organizations, church sponsorship of the needy, etc.

It's not a love issue, it's an issue of who should make it happen, and I don't the state will do it right.     
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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2010, 11:57:42 AM »

Quote
And look how the US public schools fair... outstanding aren't they. People pay beyond their means still to send their children to a private school. Yet, public schools can be useful for education when it is supported by the community and not relying on state bureaucracy.

I think you pointed out one of the key differences.  The quality of public education is variable by the means of the local community because it is funded by property taxes, and is largely directed by the state and not the federal government.  No child left behind, which was something instituted at the federal level, I think is just bad policy.

The problem with providing public healthcare to everyone, is the fact that our system is really broken and really expensive.  In my opinion liability and litigation has a lot to do with this.

The last problem is simple.  We're broke.
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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2010, 01:35:14 PM »

I would recommend a reading of the Sermon on the Mount and our Lord's advocacy of care for the sick and the hungry and then I would recommend a study of the greatest Christian city the Church has known, that of Constantinople, whose societal outworking of Matthew 25: 31-46  resulted in a very extensive system of health care, geriatric care, care of orphans, provision of food, funded by public taxation.

Thank you for your suggestion, Father. It has never occurred to me that the Byzantine empire did some kind of social work. I've always thought that biblical exhortations for charity should be applied to invidual christians, not states, but perhaps I've missed this aspect Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2010, 01:35:46 PM »

Quote
And look how the US public schools fair... outstanding aren't they. People pay beyond their means still to send their children to a private school. Yet, public schools can be useful for education when it is supported by the community and not relying on state bureaucracy.

I think you pointed out one of the key differences.  The quality of public education is variable by the means of the local community because it is funded by property taxes, and is largely directed by the state and not the federal government.  No child left behind, which was something instituted at the federal level, I think is just bad policy.

The problem with providing public healthcare to everyone, is the fact that our system is really broken and really expensive.  In my opinion liability and litigation has a lot to do with this.

The last problem is simple.  We're broke.

The best schools aren't the ones that receive money from local taxes. The best ones are the ones that have families involved, both financially and supportive.

For example, Catholic and other private schools receive the majority of their school funding from donations. That's why there is sometimes scandal over private schools looking the other way when rich kids get in trouble.  
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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2010, 02:15:22 PM »

The level of parental involvement probably tracks with the level of funding.  Certainly parental involvement is critical.  Private funding does not make a school better or worse.  Many private schools, particularly parochial ones, are not of the same quality as many public schools.  You get out what you put in, both in terms of money and the level of parental involvement.

To the point of the thread, we have made public education a right of all children.  That however does not stop many schools from failing to actually educate them.  There are underlying issues that have to be fixed.  Same with healthcare.  Ultimately though, we are broke and in debt.  I have no idea how it will all get paid for.
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« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2010, 02:29:41 PM »

Yes but I hear that the majority of the US states have third term abortion while no one in Europe has that...
Yes and America and the UK have their famed economic liberalism in which you can have 91% and 50%, respectively. of your income taken away while in France the maximum is 40%, Poland is 32%, Russia 13%, Germany 45%.. Look at how those Europeans are immoral and serf-like. Yes we have a Value Added Tax, called the sales tax, which is not  a direct tax but a tax on consumption. I think that it is very moral that the state levies a tax so people do not consume too much.
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« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2010, 02:35:41 PM »

91% taxation in the US?
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« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2010, 03:16:10 PM »

The level of parental involvement probably tracks with the level of funding.  Certainly parental involvement is critical.  Private funding does not make a school better or worse.  Many private schools, particularly parochial ones, are not of the same quality as many public schools.  You get out what you put in, both in terms of money and the level of parental involvement.

Don't marginalized the dependancy private schools have on donations.

Here's a recent example of donators hurting a Catholic school because of their disagreements over conservative priests.

Quote
Donations plummet following appointment of orthodox Catholic priests in Platteville

By DOUG ERICKSON

St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Platteville, stung by a plunge in donations following the arrival of three controversial priests, has issued an urgent plea for money to keep its parochial school open.

The 75-year-old St. Mary’s Catholic School is subsidized by the church, which has seen weekly donations fall more than 50 percent in four months, said Myron Tranel, chairman of the church’s finance council.

The school, with 106 K-8 students, has enough money to operate until at least January but needs an additional $200,000 to keep the facility open through the end of the school year, he said.

The financial crisis coincides with Madison Bishop Robert Morlino’s decision in June to bring in three priests from the Society of Jesus Christ the Priest to lead the parish. The group is based in Spain and known for traditionalist liturgy and devotion to orthodox Catholic teaching.

Changes the priests have made, including barring girls from being altar servers, led to a petition last month signed by 469 of the church’s approximately 1,200 members asking Morlino to immediately remove the priests. In a response letter to the parish last week, Morlino said the priests have his full support and will stay. He chastised parishioners for conduct he called “gravely sinful.” [I must agree, though I would say it is the ringleaders who will bear the most responsibility.]
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/11/d-of-madision-liberals-attacking-faithful-priests-are-harming-the-future-of-school-children/

No altar girls! The HORROR!
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« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2010, 03:59:06 PM »

The level of parental involvement probably tracks with the level of funding.  Certainly parental involvement is critical.  Private funding does not make a school better or worse.  Many private schools, particularly parochial ones, are not of the same quality as many public schools.  You get out what you put in, both in terms of money and the level of parental involvement.

Don't marginalized the dependancy private schools have on donations.

Here's a recent example of donators hurting a Catholic school because of their disagreements over conservative priests.

Quote
Donations plummet following appointment of orthodox Catholic priests in Platteville

By DOUG ERICKSON

St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Platteville, stung by a plunge in donations following the arrival of three controversial priests, has issued an urgent plea for money to keep its parochial school open.

The 75-year-old St. Mary’s Catholic School is subsidized by the church, which has seen weekly donations fall more than 50 percent in four months, said Myron Tranel, chairman of the church’s finance council.

The school, with 106 K-8 students, has enough money to operate until at least January but needs an additional $200,000 to keep the facility open through the end of the school year, he said.

The financial crisis coincides with Madison Bishop Robert Morlino’s decision in June to bring in three priests from the Society of Jesus Christ the Priest to lead the parish. The group is based in Spain and known for traditionalist liturgy and devotion to orthodox Catholic teaching.

Changes the priests have made, including barring girls from being altar servers, led to a petition last month signed by 469 of the church’s approximately 1,200 members asking Morlino to immediately remove the priests. In a response letter to the parish last week, Morlino said the priests have his full support and will stay. He chastised parishioners for conduct he called “gravely sinful.” [I must agree, though I would say it is the ringleaders who will bear the most responsibility.]
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/11/d-of-madision-liberals-attacking-faithful-priests-are-harming-the-future-of-school-children/

No altar girls! The HORROR!

If you're going to shakedown the locals, you might want to try not offending them. If the bishop wanted to put these ultra right wing priests in the parish fine, but actions have consequences...the church doesn't have any right to whine and cry when people vote with their wallets.

But if it's any consolation, I agree with you on health care, an institution cannot be healthy when not subjected to free market forces, be that institution a Church or a Hospital.
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« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2010, 04:15:48 PM »

If you're going to shakedown the locals, you might want to try not offending them. If the bishop wanted to put these ultra right wing priests in the parish fine, but actions have consequences...the church doesn't have any right to whine and cry when people vote with their wallets.

The problem is, the Church isn't in the business of pleasing people's political ideals. It's in the business of proclaiming the Gospel through it's Traditions. It will encounter resistance as it withdrawals from the liberal trend stemming from the 60s.

Now, this article was at the beginning of the development. Since then, the bishop has received support from all around the country for supporting his priests, and donations from outside the diocese to support the school. I included it as an example on how successful schools are reliant on outside donations and support.
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« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2010, 04:20:53 PM »

If you're going to shakedown the locals, you might want to try not offending them. If the bishop wanted to put these ultra right wing priests in the parish fine, but actions have consequences...the church doesn't have any right to whine and cry when people vote with their wallets.

The problem is, the Church isn't in the business of pleasing people's political ideals. It's in the business of proclaiming the Gospel through it's Traditions. It will encounter resistance as it withdrawals from the liberal trend stemming from the 60s.

If that's what they want to do fine...but they shouldn't whine when people don't like this and take their allowance away.

Quote
Now, this article was at the beginning of the development. Since then, the bishop has received support from all around the country for supporting his priests, and donations from outside the diocese to support the school. I included it as an example on how successful schools are reliant on outside donations and support.

Not surprising, there are several extreme right wing elements withing the catholic church that probably appreciated it, one bishop can get away with this kind of a stunt and still find some people to shake down...now if you have twenty or thirty bishops doing this, they'll just be broke.
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« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2010, 04:24:14 PM »

If you're going to shakedown the locals, you might want to try not offending them. If the bishop wanted to put these ultra right wing priests in the parish fine, but actions have consequences...the church doesn't have any right to whine and cry when people vote with their wallets.

The problem is, the Church isn't in the business of pleasing people's political ideals. It's in the business of proclaiming the Gospel through it's Traditions. It will encounter resistance as it withdrawals from the liberal trend stemming from the 60s.

If that's what they want to do fine...but they shouldn't whine when people don't like this and take their allowance away.

Quote
Now, this article was at the beginning of the development. Since then, the bishop has received support from all around the country for supporting his priests, and donations from outside the diocese to support the school. I included it as an example on how successful schools are reliant on outside donations and support.

Not surprising, there are several extreme right wing elements withing the catholic church that probably appreciated it, one bishop can get away with this kind of a stunt and still find some people to shake down...now if you have twenty or thirty bishops doing this, they'll just be broke.

Exactly, why do you insist the are "extreme right wingers". The priests are in reality holding to traditional Catholic teaching and Tradition.

Then again, extreme usually depends on ones own relative position.
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« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2010, 04:27:01 PM »

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Don't marginalized the dependancy private schools have on donations.

I have to admit, I'm at a loss to understand your point.
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« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2010, 04:33:55 PM »

Quote
Don't marginalized the dependancy private schools have on donations.

I have to admit, I'm at a loss to understand your point.

If that wasn't your intention I misunderstood you.
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« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2010, 04:45:28 PM »

If you're going to shakedown the locals, you might want to try not offending them. If the bishop wanted to put these ultra right wing priests in the parish fine, but actions have consequences...the church doesn't have any right to whine and cry when people vote with their wallets.

The problem is, the Church isn't in the business of pleasing people's political ideals. It's in the business of proclaiming the Gospel through it's Traditions. It will encounter resistance as it withdrawals from the liberal trend stemming from the 60s.

If that's what they want to do fine...but they shouldn't whine when people don't like this and take their allowance away.

Quote
Now, this article was at the beginning of the development. Since then, the bishop has received support from all around the country for supporting his priests, and donations from outside the diocese to support the school. I included it as an example on how successful schools are reliant on outside donations and support.

Not surprising, there are several extreme right wing elements withing the catholic church that probably appreciated it, one bishop can get away with this kind of a stunt and still find some people to shake down...now if you have twenty or thirty bishops doing this, they'll just be broke.

Exactly, why do you insist the are "extreme right wingers". The priests are in reality holding to traditional Catholic teaching and Tradition.

Then again, extreme usually depends on ones own relative position.

Just talking about what you see in the catholic church in america today, on the far left you have advocates of more congregationalist ecclesiology, gay marriage, women priests...there are degrees of this that go to the moderate position of not really caring about these issues, only going to church a few times a year, etc. This is your average catholic in America. From there you can go to the right, starting with people who attend regularly and may even go to confession, and by the time you get to priests that are using traditionalist rites and excluding alter girls from serving, you've reached the far right to the catholic church in America, most the people who are any further right are no longer in the Catholic Church, making this the extreme edge.
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« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2010, 04:55:12 PM »

Private schools are utterly dependent on the willingness of individuals to pay for education beyond what they pay in property tax, either through tuition or donations.  I don't think that conflicts with anything I've said previously.
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« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2010, 05:03:58 PM »

If you're going to shakedown the locals, you might want to try not offending them. If the bishop wanted to put these ultra right wing priests in the parish fine, but actions have consequences...the church doesn't have any right to whine and cry when people vote with their wallets.

The problem is, the Church isn't in the business of pleasing people's political ideals. It's in the business of proclaiming the Gospel through it's Traditions. It will encounter resistance as it withdrawals from the liberal trend stemming from the 60s.

If that's what they want to do fine...but they shouldn't whine when people don't like this and take their allowance away.

Quote
Now, this article was at the beginning of the development. Since then, the bishop has received support from all around the country for supporting his priests, and donations from outside the diocese to support the school. I included it as an example on how successful schools are reliant on outside donations and support.

Not surprising, there are several extreme right wing elements withing the catholic church that probably appreciated it, one bishop can get away with this kind of a stunt and still find some people to shake down...now if you have twenty or thirty bishops doing this, they'll just be broke.

Exactly, why do you insist the are "extreme right wingers". The priests are in reality holding to traditional Catholic teaching and Tradition.

Then again, extreme usually depends on ones own relative position.

Just talking about what you see in the catholic church in america today, on the far left you have advocates of more congregationalist ecclesiology, gay marriage, women priests...there are degrees of this that go to the moderate position of not really caring about these issues, only going to church a few times a year, etc. This is your average catholic in America. From there you can go to the right, starting with people who attend regularly and may even go to confession, and by the time you get to priests that are using traditionalist rites and excluding alter girls from serving, you've reached the far right to the catholic church in America, most the people who are any further right are no longer in the Catholic Church, making this the extreme edge.

I would have to do some digging for a source, but recent statistics have shown traditional Catholics to be over half of the Catholic population in the US. Liberal Catholics have just been loudest in the past.

Current trends also show an increase in Catholis laity preferring traditionalist thought. Most of the previous liberalism is attributed to failed catachisus during the middle to late 20th century, which is slowly being rectified.
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« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2010, 05:06:22 PM »

You know what would be really cool? If the Patriarch of Constantinople made a joint announcement with the Pope supporting healthcare for everyone... Wink
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« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2010, 05:12:46 PM »

You know what would be really cool? If the Patriarch of Constantinople made a joint announcement with the Pope supporting healthcare for everyone... Wink

*snort* lol


Is that your dog on your avatar? He doesn't support state healthcare.
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« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2010, 11:10:46 PM »

Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people

"By Sarah Delaney
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI and other church leaders said it was the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay..."

Full Article: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1004736.htm

I am sure this will eventually have to be moved to "politics" but I thought we might start out here.


I think it was the moral responsibility of Christians to provide free healtcare, not nations?
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« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2010, 01:02:24 AM »

Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people

"By Sarah Delaney
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI and other church leaders said it was the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay..."

Full Article: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1004736.htm

I am sure this will eventually have to be moved to "politics" but I thought we might start out here.


I think it was the moral responsibility of Christians to provide free healtcare, not nations?

That's how it worked historically...but when you're spending all your money to settle lawsuits...well, those hospitals are pretty expensive...
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