Author Topic: Confusion on Judges 1:19  (Read 875 times)

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Offline Shiny

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Confusion on Judges 1:19
« on: November 18, 2010, 06:50:43 PM »
"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Because of their unbelief, whereby they distrusted God's power to destroy those who had chariots of iron, and so gave way to their own fear and sloth, whereby God was provoked to withdraw his helping hand?

I'm not sure how this part of Scripture should be taken as, any help?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Rufus

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2010, 10:14:09 PM »
"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Because of their unbelief, whereby they distrusted God's power to destroy those who had chariots of iron, and so gave way to their own fear and sloth, whereby God was provoked to withdraw his helping hand?

I'm not sure how this part of Scripture should be taken as, any help?

King James Version? Could be a translation goof, because my Masoretic Text and Septuagint both say "they could not drive them out."

Also, in the LXX, the reason given is that "Rachab prevented them," whereas only the MT mentions the chariots.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2010, 10:29:17 PM »
Rufus do you have a good translation of the LXX?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Ionnis

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2010, 10:50:57 PM »
"And the Lord was with Ioudas, and he inherited the hill country, for he could not inherit the inhabitants of the valley, because Rechab commanded it."  (LXX)

-Taken from "A New English Translation of the Septuagint" by Oxford Press. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 10:51:53 PM by Ionnis »
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Offline Rufus

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2010, 11:18:31 PM »
Rufus do you have a good translation of the LXX?
"And the Lord was with Ioudas, and he inherited the hill country, for he could not inherit the inhabitants of the valley, because Rechab commanded it."  (LXX)

-Taken from "A New English Translation of the Septuagint" by Oxford Press.  

There are varying text traditions of the LXX (Alexandrian, Vatican, Sinaiticus), but my Greek text says "ouk edynasthesan" = they could not, which is how Sir Lancelot Brenton translates it. It is the only translation I am familiar with, and unfortunately, it is not first-class. Its main problem is its poor readability, and it has minor innaccuracies in a lot of places. I believe it was the first major translation of the LXX into English.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 11:19:04 PM by Rufus »

Offline Ionnis

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2010, 11:22:57 PM »
Rufus do you have a good translation of the LXX?
"And the Lord was with Ioudas, and he inherited the hill country, for he could not inherit the inhabitants of the valley, because Rechab commanded it."  (LXX)

-Taken from "A New English Translation of the Septuagint" by Oxford Press.  

There are varying text traditions of the LXX (Alexandrian, Vatican, Sinaiticus), but my Greek text says "ouk edynasthesan" = they could not, which is how Sir Lancelot Brenton translates it. It is the only translation I am familiar with, and unfortunately, it is not first-class. Its main problem is its poor readability, and it has minor innaccuracies in a lot of places. I believe it was the first major translation of the LXX into English.

Sorry, Codex Vaticanus states as you say, but Codex Alexandrinus states what I posted above.
"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

Offline Rufus

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2010, 11:26:53 PM »
Rufus do you have a good translation of the LXX?
"And the Lord was with Ioudas, and he inherited the hill country, for he could not inherit the inhabitants of the valley, because Rechab commanded it."  (LXX)

-Taken from "A New English Translation of the Septuagint" by Oxford Press.  

There are varying text traditions of the LXX (Alexandrian, Vatican, Sinaiticus), but my Greek text says "ouk edynasthesan" = they could not, which is how Sir Lancelot Brenton translates it. It is the only translation I am familiar with, and unfortunately, it is not first-class. Its main problem is its poor readability, and it has minor innaccuracies in a lot of places. I believe it was the first major translation of the LXX into English.

Sorry, Codex Vaticanus states as you say, but Codex Alexandrinus states what I posted above.

Interesting! Duly noted. Also, in your version, the antecedent to the verb seems to be Judah--"Judah could not inherit it" rather than "God could not inherit it."

Offline Shiny

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2010, 01:19:04 AM »
"And the Lord was with Ioudas, and he inherited the hill country, for he could not inherit the inhabitants of the valley, because Rechab commanded it."  (LXX)

-Taken from "A New English Translation of the Septuagint" by Oxford Press. 

How did Iron Chariots ever get it's way into the translation?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2010, 01:47:08 AM »
"And the Lord was with Ioudas, and he inherited the hill country, for he could not inherit the inhabitants of the valley, because Rechab commanded it."  (LXX)

-Taken from "A New English Translation of the Septuagint" by Oxford Press. 

How did Iron Chariots ever get it's way into the translation?

good question...  ???

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2010, 02:45:36 AM »
"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Because of their unbelief, whereby they distrusted God's power to destroy those who had chariots of iron, and so gave way to their own fear and sloth, whereby God was provoked to withdraw his helping hand?

I'm not sure how this part of Scripture should be taken as, any help?

The Orthodox Study Bible has Judges 1:19 as:

The Lord was with Judah, and he inherited the mountain; for they could not completely destroy the inhabitants of the lowland, because Rechab prevented it.

If you look at Judges 1:21, the sons of Benjamin failed to conquer the Jebusites who dwelt in Jerusalem (which sits on a high plateau about 2,800 feet in elevation) and the authors of the Orthodox Study Bible compare the disobedience of Benjamin to the obedience of Judah and Simeon.

(Page 285 of the Orthodox Study Bible with footnotes for Judges 1:21)

So, Jesus Christ went throughout the lowlands to preach the Gospel to the divided nation of Israel and ultimately conquered sin (e.g. Jebusites) by being raised on the cross and through His resurrection.

Offline Rufus

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2010, 10:09:24 AM »
"And the Lord was with Ioudas, and he inherited the hill country, for he could not inherit the inhabitants of the valley, because Rechab commanded it."  (LXX)

-Taken from "A New English Translation of the Septuagint" by Oxford Press. 

How did Iron Chariots ever get it's way into the translation?

The Hebrew text has the iron chariots.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2010, 08:25:01 PM »
"And the Lord was with Ioudas, and he inherited the hill country, for he could not inherit the inhabitants of the valley, because Rechab commanded it."  (LXX)

-Taken from "A New English Translation of the Septuagint" by Oxford Press.  

How did Iron Chariots ever get it's way into the translation?

 
The Hebrew text has the iron chariots.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Septuagint reference iron chariots somewhere later, just not in that particular verse?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 08:25:28 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline xariskai

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Re: Confusion on Judges 1:19
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2010, 01:05:17 AM »
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Septuagint reference iron chariots somewhere later, just not in that particular verse?

LXE (Brenton) Judges 4:3 "And the children of Israel cried to the Lord, because he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and he mightily oppressed Israel twenty years."

The iron chariots were defeated a bit later:

LXE Judges 4:15: "And the Lord discomfited Sisara, and all his chariots, and all his army, with the edge of the sword before Barac: and Sisara descended from off his chariot, and fled on his feet."

Of the forces of Sisera/Sisara, the song of Deborah relates:

LXE Judges 5:21 "The brook of Kison swept them away, the ancient brook, the brook Kison."

Forces lacking horses and chariots normally would be hopelessly outclassed by forces with them, however Deborah relates a rainstorm so flooded the valley that the enemy soldiers were forced to abandon their chariots and run.

The Heb. text, BTW, can be read as presenting that Judah could not drive the chariots out in Judg 1:9 rather than that God could not; in any case the book of Judges according to all textual trajectories further relates that the forces employing them were ultimately defeated. So the book of Judges hardly seems to intend the task was impossible for God in any case in the final analysis. ;-)



« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 01:11:44 AM by xariskai »