Author Topic: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?  (Read 10823 times)

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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2010, 01:22:17 PM »

People become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by their own free will, and not always succeed. For those who do not succeed, St. Paul councils to "marry rather than burn."
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?


Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."
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Offline Papist

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2010, 01:28:43 PM »

People become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by their own free will, and not always succeed. For those who do not succeed, St. Paul councils to "marry rather than burn."
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?


Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."
Do you believe that Christians should allow for homosexual men to marry homosexual men, and homosexual womeen to marry homosexual women?
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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2010, 01:32:35 PM »
Wasn't it talk like Heorhij's that led to the long ban on discussions of homosexuality here?

Offline Papist

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2010, 01:35:41 PM »
Read the new policy. The forum supports the traditional Eastern Orthodox view. I am just trying to understand what Heorhij believes. If he is against the Orthodox view on this matter, I am not going to project his view onto other Orthodox Christians.

As a Catholic I see the EO Churches as true particular Churches (though not The Church) and so, I don't believe that EOs will change their teaching to suit modern taste.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2010, 02:25:41 PM »
Homosexuality as such is not a sin.  There is enough evidence in literature that on this theme the bible was incorrect translated.  The bible comdems prostitution.
I am convinced that the orthodox church leaders will allow one day gay marriages.
Then you have deceived yourself.

Indeed.  To synthesize it all:  Sodomy is is not only absent from being blessed by the Paradosis; it is condemned.  But all who struggle with this may be come to the Church to receive healing and help. 

They won't receive "healing." Just like it is impossible to "heal" left-handedness or the red color of hair, it is impossible to "heal" someone from homosexual orientation. It is both unreasonable and cruel to tell homosexuals that they can one happy day be rid of what their sexuality is. Telling them that the Church forbids them to engage in sexual activity - that, of course, is possible, but not more than that.

Homosexuality is not akin to hair color or handedness. It is akin to the desire to continue eating when not hungry, or genetically-predisposed alcoholism. It is a sinful passion—not one chosen by the individual, I agree there—but it is a passion to be struggled against, a perversion of the natural order, caused by sin's corruption of the natural world and even the fetal development process (in my opinion).

Struggling against passions—genetic or chosen—doesn't mean lust goes away, and homosexuals should have the support of the church in their struggles against acting on their passions, but we don't give people license to sin simply because it's difficult not to, or because they did not choose their passions.

Homosexuals do have a difficult cross to bear, especially in today's all-permissive world and with no outlet for their "burning", and may the Lord reward the faithful among them. They need our prayers.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 02:28:55 PM by bogdan »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2010, 02:31:01 PM »

People become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by their own free will, and not always succeed. For those who do not succeed, St. Paul councils to "marry rather than burn."
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?


Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."

If a man is only attracted to other men, then he is not called to marriage. All unmarried people are called to celibacy.

Offline Papist

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2010, 02:36:04 PM »

People become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by their own free will, and not always succeed. For those who do not succeed, St. Paul councils to "marry rather than burn."
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?


Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."

If a man is only attracted to other men, then he is not called to marriage. All unmarried people are called to celibacy.
Well stated.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2010, 03:09:23 PM »

People become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by their own free will, and not always succeed. For those who do not succeed, St. Paul councils to "marry rather than burn."
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?


Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."

If a man is only attracted to other men, then he is not called to marriage. All unmarried people are called to celibacy.
Does not compute.

Just because someone is afflicted with homosexuality does not mean they are given the gift of celibacy-if it did, the problem would be solved. He can still "burn."

There is more to monasticism than just being unmarried.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2010, 03:12:03 PM »

People become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by their own free will, and not always succeed. For those who do not succeed, St. Paul councils to "marry rather than burn."
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?


Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."
There was plenty of homosexuality going on in St. Paul's time, read the first chapters of Romans.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2010, 04:05:27 PM »

People become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by their own free will, and not always succeed. For those who do not succeed, St. Paul councils to "marry rather than burn."
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?


Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."
There was plenty of homosexuality going on in St. Paul's time, read the first chapters of Romans.

Yes, I know! But the notion of the time was, these men and women are just committing sexual immorality. There was no notion at that time that a man cannot marry a woman because he is sexually attracted to other males, or that a girl cannot be given in marriage by her father because she is sexually attracted to other girls or women. People who had homosexual lovers still had heterosexual spouses and had children with them. No one was interested in what one's "true" sexual identity was. I think that back in those times, if one asked a man, "are you a homosexual?" or a woman, 'are you a lesbian?" - it would be the same as to ask them, do you know the atomic number of plutonium? :)
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2010, 04:25:24 PM »
I always find it most curious when someone posts to a 7-year old thread. Just stirring things up, I suppose.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2010, 04:57:40 PM »
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?
Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning." 

I don't think you give them enough credit - there were numerous cultures from before the time of Christ who had allowed homosexual relationships.  They were not strangers to the fact that some men desired men, and some women desired women; but they weren't going to condone it, as they believed (and, from the Orthodox POV, rightly so) that it represented "fallen" sexuality.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2010, 04:58:36 PM »
Wasn't it talk like Heorhij's that led to the long ban on discussions of homosexuality here? 

What led to the long ban was a promulgation of far too many threads discussing this subject.  As long as we don't have a repeat of that situation, we should be fine.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2010, 05:04:36 PM »
Homosexuality as such is not a sin.  There is enough evidence in literature that on this theme the bible was incorrect translated.  The bible comdems prostitution.
I am convinced that the orthodox church leaders will allow one day gay marriages.
Not the Eastern Orthodox Church will not. There is no precedent for it. It's not in the Fathers. It's not in the Scriptures. There is no liturgical tradition of anything like it. I don't believe that God would allow such to ever occur in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I agree with you, but your verbage is very western, couched in legal terms.  Not only is sodomy absent from any blessing in the Tradition, it is also denounced time and time again as a perversion, an abomination.  It is not just wrong, its practice indicates someone in need of healing.  May God ever preserve His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church so that She might be a source of restoration for all who come to Her. 


Ignat, go to confession.
You are right. Even when we Catholics defend Eastern Orthodoxy, we couch our our verbage in western legal terms.  ::)

And that is not wrong, just reminds me of Blessed Augustine, Ambrose, etc.  Worthy Saints in their own right.
First, nothing I said is overtly "western". Second, if there was nothing wrong with what I said, why point it out?

Good question.  I wanted to come at this vice from an ontological point of view, not just a legal one.  It is easier for heretics to try and change canons, rites and such.  But to try and change nature is impossible:  "Male and female he created them".

There is nothing particularly "Western" about citing canons, Fathers, scriptures, etc. If this constitutes "legalism" than the East is just as legalistic as the West.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2010, 05:15:38 PM »
Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."

I understand your point here, George. It is well taken.

Homosexuals certainly have an enormous cross to bear, since they are stuck burning with lust if they tend to that direction.

It is sad that the modern world seems mostly divided into two camps: those who pressure homosexuals to just "live and let live," and those who spend a lot of time condemning homosexuals and not seeking to understand the cross they must bear and doing what they can to give them moral and spiritual support in bearing it.

Christians struggling with homosexuality (and you are right that bisexuality is much rarer among men than women) are very alone, frequently rejected or ignored by both "sides."

This short article is well worth reading:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/AndersonStruggling.php

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2010, 05:27:50 PM »
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?
Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning." 

I don't think you give them enough credit - there were numerous cultures from before the time of Christ who had allowed homosexual relationships.  They were not strangers to the fact that some men desired men, and some women desired women; but they weren't going to condone it, as they believed (and, from the Orthodox POV, rightly so) that it represented "fallen" sexuality.

Exactly. It's easy to think that distance from now means distance from knowledge. After all, we know how to make lightning turn a hot pocket yummy! There is plenty of thought in various cultures regarding the acceptance, or lack thereof, of homosexuality: both culturally and spiritually.

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Offline bogdan

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2010, 05:28:27 PM »

People become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by their own free will, and not always succeed. For those who do not succeed, St. Paul councils to "marry rather than burn."
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?


Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."

If a man is only attracted to other men, then he is not called to marriage. All unmarried people are called to celibacy.
Does not compute.

Just because someone is afflicted with homosexuality does not mean they are given the gift of celibacy-if it did, the problem would be solved. He can still "burn."

There is more to monasticism than just being unmarried.

By celibacy I only mean that a person does not have sexual relations. Celibacy (under that definition) is a choice: a person can have sex, or they can not have sex.

I agree that monasticism is completely different, and is only for those who are called to it. But all unmarried people are called to be celibate.

Offline Papist

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2010, 05:29:28 PM »
Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."

I understand your point here, George. It is well taken.

Homosexuals certainly have an enormous cross to bear, since they are stuck burning with lust if they tend to that direction.

It is sad that the modern world seems mostly divided into two camps: those who pressure homosexuals to just "live and let live," and those who spend a lot of time condemning homosexuals and not seeking to understand the cross they must bear and doing what they can to give them moral and spiritual support in bearing it.

Christians struggling with homosexuality (and you are right that bisexuality is much rarer among men than women) are very alone, frequently rejected or ignored by both "sides."

This short article is well worth reading:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/AndersonStruggling.php
Great article. I am surprised that there is no mention of Courage:
http://www.couragerc.net/
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2010, 05:36:19 PM »
That article was so Western and scholastic that I puked all over it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 05:38:05 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2010, 05:41:28 PM »
That article was so Western and scholastic that I puked all over it.

Haha. Well, take your issue up with Orthodoxy Today. Write them an e-mail of complaint. Though if you would like to increase your chances of a reply, try not to put your complaint in quite those terms. :D

Offline bogdan

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2010, 05:41:52 PM »
Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."

I understand your point here, George. It is well taken.

Homosexuals certainly have an enormous cross to bear, since they are stuck burning with lust if they tend to that direction.

It is sad that the modern world seems mostly divided into two camps: those who pressure homosexuals to just "live and let live," and those who spend a lot of time condemning homosexuals and not seeking to understand the cross they must bear and doing what they can to give them moral and spiritual support in bearing it.

Christians struggling with homosexuality (and you are right that bisexuality is much rarer among men than women) are very alone, frequently rejected or ignored by both "sides."

This short article is well worth reading:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/AndersonStruggling.php
Great article. I am surprised that there is no mention of Courage:
http://www.couragerc.net/

A friend of mine from school used to be in Courage. He had a rough go and it seemed to really help him address his homosexuality. (Unfortunately he fell away from the RCC and ran off with his boyfriend, and I haven't heard from him in years.)

The Orthodox Church needs a ministry like Courage, truly. It's well and good to tell people what's right and wrong, but you also have to help them overcome their inclinations to sin. A good spiritual father would help too, and my friend didn't have one.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 05:46:45 PM by bogdan »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2010, 05:44:02 PM »
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?
Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning." 

I don't think you give them enough credit - there were numerous cultures from before the time of Christ who had allowed homosexual relationships.  They were not strangers to the fact that some men desired men, and some women desired women; but they weren't going to condone it, as they believed (and, from the Orthodox POV, rightly so) that it represented "fallen" sexuality.

Well Glory Be!!

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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2010, 05:57:40 PM »
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?
Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."  

I don't think you give them enough credit - there were numerous cultures from before the time of Christ who had allowed homosexual relationships.  They were not strangers to the fact that some men desired men, and some women desired women; but they weren't going to condone it, as they believed (and, from the Orthodox POV, rightly so) that it represented "fallen" sexuality.

But Father, isn't it true that, according to Orthodox luminaries like St. John Chrysostomos and others, ALL sexuality as we know it is fallen?

If that is so, why, based on what criterion is homosexual sex declared "more fallen than other?"

That "the key should fit the lock," etc.?

I am still under the impression that homosexuals were condemned by various cultures simply because (a) their relations cannot produce children, and (b) they are a minority. Nice, pious-sounding constructions about only heterosexual marriage being ordained by God are, I am afraid, a consequence of this age-old belief.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 05:58:04 PM by Heorhij »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2010, 06:07:37 PM »
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?
Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."  

I don't think you give them enough credit - there were numerous cultures from before the time of Christ who had allowed homosexual relationships.  They were not strangers to the fact that some men desired men, and some women desired women; but they weren't going to condone it, as they believed (and, from the Orthodox POV, rightly so) that it represented "fallen" sexuality.

But Father, isn't it true that, according to Orthodox luminaries like St. John Chrysostomos and others, ALL sexuality as we know it is fallen?

If that is so, why, based on what criterion is homosexual sex declared "more fallen than other?"

That "the key should fit the lock," etc.?

I am still under the impression that homosexuals were condemned by various cultures simply because (a) their relations cannot produce children, and (b) they are a minority. Nice, pious-sounding constructions about only heterosexual marriage being ordained by God are, I am afraid, a consequence of this age-old belief.

Its these kinds of discussion that leave me content with the Catholic term "disordered"

M.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2010, 06:57:13 PM »
Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."

I understand your point here, George. It is well taken.

Homosexuals certainly have an enormous cross to bear, since they are stuck burning with lust if they tend to that direction.

It is sad that the modern world seems mostly divided into two camps: those who pressure homosexuals to just "live and let live," and those who spend a lot of time condemning homosexuals and not seeking to understand the cross they must bear and doing what they can to give them moral and spiritual support in bearing it.

Christians struggling with homosexuality (and you are right that bisexuality is much rarer among men than women) are very alone, frequently rejected or ignored by both "sides."

This short article is well worth reading:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/AndersonStruggling.php
Great article. I am surprised that there is no mention of Courage:
http://www.couragerc.net/

A friend of mine from school used to be in Courage. He had a rough go and it seemed to really help him address his homosexuality. (Unfortunately he fell away from the RCC and ran off with his boyfriend, and I haven't heard from him in years.)

The Orthodox Church needs a ministry like Courage, truly. It's well and good to tell people what's right and wrong, but you also have to help them overcome their inclinations to sin. A good spiritual father would help too, and my friend didn't have one.

You can thank three great and holy men for the founding of Courage: Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Terence Cardinal Cooke of New York, and Fr. John Harvey. I should also mention The saintly John Cardinal O'Connor for strongly encouraging its expansion.


Offline Aristobolus

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2010, 02:13:23 AM »
Homosexuality as such is not a sin.  There is enough evidence in literature that on this theme the bible was incorrect translated.  The bible comdems prostitution.
I am convinced that the orthodox church leaders will allow one day gay marriages.
Then you have deceived yourself.

Indeed.  To synthesize it all:  Sodomy is is not only absent from being blessed by the Paradosis; it is condemned.  But all who struggle with this may be come to the Church to receive healing and help.  

They won't receive "healing." Just like it is impossible to "heal" left-handedness or the red color of hair, it is impossible to "heal" someone from homosexual orientation. It is both unreasonable and cruel to tell homosexuals that they can one happy day be rid of what their sexuality is. Telling them that the Church forbids them to engage in sexual activity - that, of course, is possible, but not more than that.

As those who have responded to this have said, I meant healing from the standpoint of redirecting the passions.  Also it is important not to consider so called "orientation as God given.  Attraction toward the same sex is the result of the fall; it is an abberation.  But God is able to redirect these beloved of God persons toward a more healthier direction in their lives. This is analogous to the theosis in all of our lives.  But I am not so naive as to think that this journey is easy; it is a ladder.

Offline Aristobolus

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2010, 02:24:22 AM »
Homosexuality as such is not a sin.  There is enough evidence in literature that on this theme the bible was incorrect translated.  The bible comdems prostitution.
I am convinced that the orthodox church leaders will allow one day gay marriages.
Not the Eastern Orthodox Church will not. There is no precedent for it. It's not in the Fathers. It's not in the Scriptures. There is no liturgical tradition of anything like it. I don't believe that God would allow such to ever occur in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I agree with you, but your verbage is very western, couched in legal terms.  Not only is sodomy absent from any blessing in the Tradition, it is also denounced time and time again as a perversion, an abomination.  It is not just wrong, its practice indicates someone in need of healing.  May God ever preserve His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church so that She might be a source of restoration for all who come to Her. 


Ignat, go to confession.
You are right. Even when we Catholics defend Eastern Orthodoxy, we couch our our verbage in western legal terms.  ::)

And that is not wrong, just reminds me of Blessed Augustine, Ambrose, etc.  Worthy Saints in their own right.
First, nothing I said is overtly "western". Second, if there was nothing wrong with what I said, why point it out?

Good question.  I wanted to come at this vice from an ontological point of view, not just a legal one.  It is easier for heretics to try and change canons, rites and such.  But to try and change nature is impossible:  "Male and female he created them".

There is nothing particularly "Western" about citing canons, Fathers, scriptures, etc. If this constitutes "legalism" than the East is just as legalistic as the West.
Homosexuality as such is not a sin.  There is enough evidence in literature that on this theme the bible was incorrect translated.  The bible comdems prostitution.
I am convinced that the orthodox church leaders will allow one day gay marriages.
Not the Eastern Orthodox Church will not. There is no precedent for it. It's not in the Fathers. It's not in the Scriptures. There is no liturgical tradition of anything like it. I don't believe that God would allow such to ever occur in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I agree with you, but your verbage is very western, couched in legal terms.  Not only is sodomy absent from any blessing in the Tradition, it is also denounced time and time again as a perversion, an abomination.  It is not just wrong, its practice indicates someone in need of healing.  May God ever preserve His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church so that She might be a source of restoration for all who come to Her. 


Ignat, go to confession.
You are right. Even when we Catholics defend Eastern Orthodoxy, we couch our our verbage in western legal terms.  ::)

And that is not wrong, just reminds me of Blessed Augustine, Ambrose, etc.  Worthy Saints in their own right.
First, nothing I said is overtly "western". Second, if there was nothing wrong with what I said, why point it out?

Good question.  I wanted to come at this vice from an ontological point of view, not just a legal one.  It is easier for heretics to try and change canons, rites and such.  But to try and change nature is impossible:  "Male and female he created them".

There is nothing particularly "Western" about citing canons, Fathers, scriptures, etc. If this constitutes "legalism" than the East is just as legalistic as the West.

Agreed.   I was only highlighting that whereas the original quote highlighted the absence of such a blessing in the Tradition; the proper approach goes a atep further by also identifying this as porneio against the created order.  Not that the west denies the latter; it is a matter of emphasis.

Offline tweety234

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2012, 04:35:13 PM »

People become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by their own free will, and not always succeed. For those who do not succeed, St. Paul councils to "marry rather than burn."
I hope I am not misunderstanding your post, but you are you suggesting that St. Paul would condone men marrying men in order not to burn with lust?


Of course not, but St. Paul was a man of his time, his culture. In the times of antiquity, there was simply no concept of "sexual orientation." People were supposed to either remain celibate, or marry the opposite sex. So, St. Paul's council was that men marry women if they are not called to celibacy. Knowing what we now know about human sexuality, we, of course, understand that for a homosexual man to marry a woman equals the same "burning."



Marrying a woman if one is not attracted to her. It is hypocrisy. I would say. As long as they are honest, happy, and serve God, anyway they can. They are fine. Everything else, I leave in the hands of the almighty.
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline tweety234

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2012, 04:37:45 PM »
Read the new policy. The forum supports the traditional Eastern Orthodox view. I am just trying to understand what Heorhij believes. If he is against the Orthodox view on this matter, I am not going to project his view onto other Orthodox Christians.

As a Catholic I see the EO Churches as true particular Churches (though not The Church) and so, I don't believe that EOs will change their teaching to suit modern taste.

doesn't that apply to catholics as well. Since when would a church do anything in its power to make people happy?
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2012, 04:40:47 PM »
You did it again...
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

Ἀπ' ὃσα ἒκαμα κι ἀπ’ ὃσα εἶπα
νὰ μὴ ζητήσουνε νὰ βροῦν ποιός ἢμουν
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2012, 05:31:35 PM »
You did it again...

Isn't that a Britney spears song?

Offline Papist

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2012, 05:36:03 PM »
Read the new policy. The forum supports the traditional Eastern Orthodox view. I am just trying to understand what Heorhij believes. If he is against the Orthodox view on this matter, I am not going to project his view onto other Orthodox Christians.

As a Catholic I see the EO Churches as true particular Churches (though not The Church) and so, I don't believe that EOs will change their teaching to suit modern taste.

doesn't that apply to catholics as well. Since when would a church do anything in its power to make people happy?
I think your understanding of happiness and the Church's are at odds with one another. Happiness for Catholics is not merely doing whatever makes one feel good. It's beatitude, union with God. If something, like homosexual activity, will prohibit us from achieving that union, then Church will forbid it. The Church, after all, wants to be happy. :)
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Papist

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2012, 05:36:26 PM »
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline vamrat

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Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2012, 01:03:30 AM »
You did it again...

The undead threads keep coming. It's the zombie apocalypse of OC.net!
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2012, 01:04:40 AM »
Read the new policy. The forum supports the traditional Eastern Orthodox view. I am just trying to understand what Heorhij believes. If he is against the Orthodox view on this matter, I am not going to project his view onto other Orthodox Christians.

As a Catholic I see the EO Churches as true particular Churches (though not The Church) and so, I don't believe that EOs will change their teaching to suit modern taste.

doesn't that apply to catholics as well. Since when would a church do anything in its power to make people happy?
I think your understanding of happiness and the Church's are at odds with one another. Happiness for Catholics is not merely doing whatever makes one feel good. It's beatitude, union with God. If something, like homosexual activity, will prohibit us from achieving that union, then Church will forbid it. The Church, after all, wants to be happy. :)

I thought happiness for Catholics involved making people feel guilty.  :angel:
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Papist

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Re: Gay marriage in Orthodox parish in Russia?
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2012, 02:36:50 AM »
Read the new policy. The forum supports the traditional Eastern Orthodox view. I am just trying to understand what Heorhij believes. If he is against the Orthodox view on this matter, I am not going to project his view onto other Orthodox Christians.

As a Catholic I see the EO Churches as true particular Churches (though not The Church) and so, I don't believe that EOs will change their teaching to suit modern taste.

doesn't that apply to catholics as well. Since when would a church do anything in its power to make people happy?
I think your understanding of happiness and the Church's are at odds with one another. Happiness for Catholics is not merely doing whatever makes one feel good. It's beatitude, union with God. If something, like homosexual activity, will prohibit us from achieving that union, then Church will forbid it. The Church, after all, wants to be happy. :)

I thought happiness for Catholics involved making people feel guilty.  :angel:
Haha! No. It only invovles making ourselves feel guilty.  ;)
My posts no longer forum here.