Author Topic: Oecumenism  (Read 1468 times)

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Offline Arnaud

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Oecumenism
« on: November 17, 2010, 12:48:51 AM »
Selam / Peace

What about oecumenism ? What do you think about ? Does oecumenism have a biblical and patristic foundation ?

Without the sacraments ( Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Holy Communion ) of the Apostolic Church, can someone be saved just because of his-her living and fruitful Faith in the Holy Trinity and in the incarnation of Christ for our salvation ?
Mo'a Ambessa ze imnegede Yehuda !
The Lion of the tribe of Judah has conquered !

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 11:02:32 PM »
These are profound questions that are not easy to answer. The Church is One, and I personally believe that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches practice the same Faith. My Priest has told me that the Christological language (two natures / one nature) is not a theological difference but a semantical one. He told me that he is hopeful that our Churches will one day soon be in full communion.

As for the heterodox (Protestants, Catholics, and professing "unchurched" Christians), I can again only offer my humble opinion. As someone has said, "We know where the Church is, but we do not necessarily know where the Church is not." We must call people to the Tewahedo Christian Faith, and strive to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We must cling to the mercy of God, and reveal His mercy to others. We must avail ourselves of the Sacramental graces Our Lord has freely provided us, and we must declare the mystical power and hope of the Church and her life-giving Sacraments to all the world. What others do with what God offers is up to them.

Let us pray for authentic Christian unity, a unity that must never come at the expense of compromising theological Truth or Christian morality. Let us love all people- our Christian brothers and sisters as well as our enemies. And let us be vigilant in defending the Orthodox Faith against the winds of heresy and falsehood.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline CoptoGeek

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2010, 10:21:09 AM »
Wise words, Gebre! Now if only I could live by them.
"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

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Offline Punch

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2010, 07:43:09 PM »
Selam / Peace

What about oecumenism ? What do you think about ? Does oecumenism have a biblical and patristic foundation ?

Without the sacraments ( Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Holy Communion ) of the Apostolic Church, can someone be saved just because of his-her living and fruitful Faith in the Holy Trinity and in the incarnation of Christ for our salvation ?

And peace to you!

The tells us that there is only one fold.  I believe that fold is the Orthodox Church (and I am also one of those who see the OO as fully Orthodox).  Christ also tells us that He has other sheep that are not in this fold.  As such, I believe that there will be those that are saved that are not members of an Orthodox Church.  As to ecumenism, I believe that it is wrong to engage in "dialogue" with those who are not Orthodox.  We are to proclaim the Truth to them, and not give them false hope that they, too, are some branch or part of the Church.  Dialogue implies a two way discussion.  We have nothing to discuss, only to proclaim.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 07:56:26 PM »
What about oecumenism ? What do you think about ?

Usually it takes a bad form that either chooses to ignore important divisive points for the sake of looking like we are united or actually involves compromise of the faith. Proper ecumenism where differences are talked out for the purpose of trying to convert others to Orthodoxy is fine, but the former is not.

Without the sacraments ( Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Holy Communion ) of the Apostolic Church, can someone be saved just because of his-her living and fruitful Faith in the Holy Trinity and in the incarnation of Christ for our salvation ?

No, they cannot access redeeming grace in this life. On the Last Day God will judge them on the basis of their intent and motivations, and will have mercy on those who were deprived of redeeming grace but basically had a good heart. But they will not have had access to the redeeming grace that is transformative in preparation for the Judgment; they will simply be judged who they managed themselves to be.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2010, 07:58:49 PM »
The Church is One, and I personally believe that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches practice the same Faith. My Priest has told me that the Christological language (two natures / one nature) is not a theological difference but a semantical one. He told me that he is hopeful that our Churches will one day soon be in full communion.

Even if you believe that we teach the same doctrine, that is not enough to satisfy the idea it seems you have asserted before that we are One Church. Not being in Communion should be enough to show you that we are not One Church. To think that members united as the Body of Christ could refuse to share the Body of Christ in the Eucharist with each other is nonsensical and anti-Patristic.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 08:00:52 PM »
As to ecumenism, I believe that it is wrong to engage in "dialogue" with those who are not Orthodox.  We are to proclaim the Truth to them, and not give them false hope that they, too, are some branch or part of the Church.  Dialogue implies a two way discussion.  We have nothing to discuss, only to proclaim.

This is a little too extreme of an approach, IMO. How do you think think that we got to the point where we are between Chalcedonians and Non-Chalcedonians? It was through this very dialogue you are disavowing. It is possible that through such dialogue that other groups could found to be teaching orthodox doctrine, or perhaps through it they could be shown the error of their own doctrines.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 08:01:07 PM by deusveritasest »
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Offline Arnaud

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2010, 03:26:03 AM »
Gebre Menfes Kidus said :
Quote
As someone has said, " We know where the Church is, but we do not necessarily know where the Church is not. "

Punch said :
Quote
Christ also tells us that He has other sheep that are not in this fold. As such, I believe that there will be those that are saved that are not members of an Orthodox Church.

Deusveritasest said :
Quote
No, they cannot access redeeming grace in this life. On the Last Day God will judge them on the basis of their intent and motivations, and will have mercy on those who were deprived of redeeming grace but basically had a good heart. But they will not have had access to the redeeming grace that is transformative in preparation for the Judgment ; they will simply be judged who they managed themselves to be.

Interesting answers, thank you for these answers and also to give your opinion on my subject in a whole.

Well, for my part, although I believe that the Oriental Orthodox churches are, in their source, the perfect expression of the tradition and of the apostolic succession, I do not think that, except the members of five churches, there is nobody else who can be saved.

Selam.
Mo'a Ambessa ze imnegede Yehuda !
The Lion of the tribe of Judah has conquered !

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2010, 09:13:39 AM »
We have nothing to discuss, only to proclaim.
Amen!
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Offline tomsmith2010

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2010, 02:59:42 AM »
Very nice opinion, ecumenism is a movement promoting union between religions

Offline Arnaud

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 06:06:29 PM »
" How long will we, who are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are taught by the same Holy Bible, continue to remain divided amongst ourselves ?

Realizing that the time has come for the Church of Christ, divided for many centuries up till now, to come together in unity and work together, it is imperative for all of us to strive together, in accordance with the words of the Apostle, Ephesians, Chapter 4, verses 5 and 6 to clear the way and open it up for the realization of unity. Each church and all churches have the obligation, derived from their covenant with God, to proclaim the Gospel, to make disciples of all nations and thus to make the faith grow and bear fruit. "

H.I.M Emperor Haile Selassie the 1st


Mo'a Ambessa ze imnegede Yehuda !
The Lion of the tribe of Judah has conquered !

Offline Salpy

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 09:38:43 PM »
Arnaud,

Thanks for the quote!  Could you link the website you got it from (if it is from a website) so that I and others can read it, and learn more from it?  Thanks.   :)

Offline Arnaud

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2011, 05:43:40 AM »
Greetings Salpy ...

Here you can find many of his speeches from Haile Selassie I Press. But there are many others. It is just some of them.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Haile_Selassie

Selam
Mo'a Ambessa ze imnegede Yehuda !
The Lion of the tribe of Judah has conquered !

Offline Salpy

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Re: Oecumenism
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 01:53:48 AM »
Thank you!   :)