Submission and Obedience

[JoeZollars]

I have called His HOliness Pope Michael I currently residing in Delia KS.  I have submitted to his spiritual authority and am being prepared to be recieved into the really truly true Catholic Church.  He is preparing me for ordination once some bishops can be found.

BTW, happy april fools day everyone!

Joe Zollars

[TomS]

Wow. Sometimes you are a very scary Joe!

[ania]

Wow Joe, for a second there I thought I'd have to give you a good spiritual virtual browbeating...  
Is Outrage!!!

[PhosZoe]

http://popemichael.homestead.com/

Is this who you are talking about?

LOL

[Linus7]

Yeah, good one, Joe.

Obviously, you must make your submission to Benny Hinn.

[Linus7]

http://popemichael.homestead.com/

Is this who you are talking about?

LOL

Wow!

I felt like Rod Serling was standing at my shoulder as I read through that site.

[theodore]

http://popemichael.homestead.com/

Is this who you are talking about?

LOL

Hilarious.  It appears that Pope Michael reigns from the basement of his Mom's house in Kansas.  I'll bet the REAL Pope, Pius XIII isn't amused.
http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/

[JoeZollars]

That's the one.  AKA David Bawden, co-author of "Will the Catholic Church Survive the Twentieth Century" as well as several other less than scholarly works.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

At least Michael I is honest and doesn't call himself a Bishop.   This is how Fr. Pulvermacher AKA Pope Pius XIII got his Succession:

1.Fr. Pulvermacher is elected Pope and takes name Pius XIII

2.Pius XIII declares one of his supporters a Cardinal--who has never even had any of the minor orders

3.Cardinal Bateman(the false cardinal above) "Consecrates" Pius XIII as a bishop.

4.Pius XIII ordains Cardinal Bateman up through the minor orders and major orders all the way to Bishop.

Cardinal Bateman is currently heading a sedevacantist organization out of Australia.   His organization is getting ready to hold a conclave and elect a new pope--which will undouptably be Cardinal Bateman.

At present there are 13 claimants to the Papal throne still alive other than JPII, including a woman in Canada.

Joe Zollars

[Bogoliubtsy]

Just thought I'd share these pictures of some pretty wild masses.

http://www.traditio.com/nos.htm

I'm laughing and crying over here.

[PhosZoe]

Hilarious.  It appears that Pope Michael reigns from the basement of his Mom's house in Kansas.  I'll bet the REAL Pope, Pius XIII isn't amused.
http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/

ROFL! Maybe they should have a duel.

[JoeZollars]

I have been instructed by his Holiness Pope Micahael to inform you that those are not Masses but rather Messes.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

hmm I should point out as a side note, that Michael I has been pope for a decade longer than Pius XIII.

Joe Zollars

[Linus7]

Just thought I'd share these pictures of some pretty wild masses.

http://www.traditio.com/nos.htm

I'm laughing and crying over here.

Wow!

That stuff looks a lot like what one can see in any number of liberal Protestant churches.

Weird.

[JoeZollars]

<traditionalist RC sentiments resurfacing> that's because it is Protestant!</traditionalalist RC sentiments resurfacing>

Joe Zollars

[PhosZoe]

Just thought I'd share these pictures of some pretty wild masses.

http://www.traditio.com/nos.htm

I'm laughing and crying over here.

The clown mass... I'm not going to be able to sleep this week.  

[Αριστοκλής]

Just thought I'd share these pictures of some pretty wild masses.

http://www.traditio.com/nos.htm

I'm laughing and crying over here.

Oh, my...

And to think that some decry a few pews here and there in the Orthodox world...

Demetri

[Orthodoc]

Oh, my...

And to think that some decry a few pews here and there in the Orthodox world...

Demetri

And then there are those who come here and try to convince us that there is very little difference between Orthodox Catholicity and Roman Catholicity!

Orthodoc

[Keble]

That stuff looks a lot like what one can see in any number of liberal Protestant churches.

Well, my absolutely worst liturgical moment ever was in a UCC church:

The "Doris Day" litany.

Think of "Que Sera, Sera" with the refrain as antiphon.

I'm not making this up!

But I dunno-- people who worry about consecrating bagels have too much time on their hands. The problem isn't validity or invalidity of the rite; the problem is pandering. If it's a weekday mass in the campus chapel, and the only thing available for consecration is a bagel, then why not consecrate it?

[Keble]

And then there are those who come here and try to convince us that there is very little difference between Orthodox Catholicity and Roman Catholicity!

It's all a matter of perspective.

[JoeZollars]

because a bagel contains all sorts of matter that is not apropriate for the Eucharist.  From a RC perspective, even if one thought the NO was a Mass, he couldn't believe that bagel to truly be the Eucharist.  For instance if he genuflected to a tabernacle containing it, he would be guilty of Idolotry from a Roman Perspective.  This is straight out of any number of Catechetical books.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

perspective? maybe blindness.  How can one say that the sublime services of hte Orthodox Church are even close to being on the same level as even the Tridentine Mass or AU Mass--let alone the garbage that was linked too.   I do not say this lightly, and if you know me at all you know I have spent years promoting the TLM, but it is like a hershey's bar compared to the good stuf from Switzerland.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

I offer these opinions as neither Orthodox or trad RC since I am neither at the moment but just simply my personal observations.

And yes I realize and recognize that the Latin Mass is infinitly closer to the Orthodox Liturgy of Old Rome than the NO is.

Joe Zollars

[Keble]

What's in a bagel?

You're missing the point, Joe. The problem with the bagel isn't what's in it; it's what using it means, in the context of its use. As a field expedient, it's bread. As the centerpiece of Sunday mass, it's an expression of-- well, maybe not frivolity, but definitely a reaction against solemnity.

Scrupulosity about the elements backfires easily against hosts. "Angelic fish food wafers" (to quote Fr. Capon) don't register to most people as bread. And in many respects they exist precisely because the reality of genuine bread offends the scrupulous. I once obtained genuine unleavened bread for a Catholic priests: matzos. Do you know what happens when you break a matzo? It explodes with crumbs, followed immediately by the more excessively pious members of the altar guild. But that is what real unleavened bread does.

Breaking bread with a rice cracker is as much of a scandal to some as using a bagel, when it comes to the substance.

[Keble]

perspective? maybe blindness.  How can one say that the sublime services of hte Orthodox Church are even close to being on the same level as even the Tridentine Mass or AU Mass--let alone the garbage that was linked too.   I do not say this lightly, and if you know me at all you know I have spent years promoting the TLM, but it is like a hershey's bar compared to the good stuf from Switzerland.

I dunno about that, Joe: plenty of people think that Hershey's Special Dark is pretty good. Swiss chocolate and Orthodox liturgy are often as not surrounded by a lot of snobbery.

So I'm singing at a wedding at St. Nick's OCA, one of maybe two Protestants there, and I'm thinking, "Why the heck can't these guys shut up??" It seems to take a Protestant-- or an ex-Protestant-- to treat the occaision with the respect, not to mention revence, that it calls for.

Reverence, when all is said and done, resides in the hearts of the congregants, not in the substance of the rite. In this the NO "reformers" are right. Where they go wrong is forgetting that the substance-- normally-- exhibits one's reverence anyway.

[JoeZollars]

well of course not, they should be using the proper Azymes but that is beside the point.

Pius V decried that a Roman Mass could not be celebrated with anything other than Grape Whine and Wheat bread consisting of nothing more than Flour, Water, and salt.  this was confirmed by Trent, which also expressly stated that to say Mass with anything else results in an automatic excommuncation.  According to Roman Theology, only the Pope can absolve this excommunication.  

As for the Altar guild comment, would not a similar event occur if (God Forbid!) a Priest dropped a piece of the Sacred Mysteries on the floor?  Of course it would, and should.  Its something called reverence for the Divine.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

Keble I respectfully disagree.  Reverence, while the laity play a big part, is not even a tenth of the equation.  One must also have proper theology in addition to proper reverence.  One must give correct Glory to God.

Joe Zollars

[Deacon Lance]

Abuses cannot be equated with what a the Latin Church teaches.  Eastern Catholics and Orthodox should be thankful such absues do not occur in their Churches.  On the otherhand pointing to the above abuses as if they are something the Latin Church sanctions is wrong.  If you want to see what a current Roman Rite Mass should look like turn on EWTN, the rubrics are followed perfectly.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Keble]

well of course not, they should be using the proper Azymes but that is beside the point.

Pius V decried that a Roman Mass could not be celebrated with anything other than Grape Whine and Wheat bread consisting of nothing more than Flour, Water, and salt.  this was confirmed by Trent, which also expressly stated that to say Mass with anything else results in an automatic excommuncation.  According to Roman Theology, only the Pope can absolve this excommunication.  

That's plainly a prudential declaration and one which hasn't pertained through church history; Orthodox churches insist that the bread be leavened, while Anglicans have gone back and forth and finally decided that as long as it was bread it didn't matter. And it's not a matter of theology, but of church discipline.

As for the Altar guild comment, would not a similar event occur if (God Forbid!) a Priest dropped a piece of the Sacred Mysteries on the floor?

Well, as it happens our altar guild reserves a special vacuum cleaner for cleaning around the altar and takes care to empty it into the piscina. If the priest drops a host (or a piece of bread), he just picks it up and eats it. It happens. People should be more concerned about whether the priest is having a stroke.

[Keble]

Keble I respectfully disagree.  Reverence, while the laity play a big part, is not even a tenth of the equation.  One must also have proper theology in addition to proper reverence.  One must give correct Glory to God.

I don't think it comes in fractions.

[JoeZollars]

man it was a figure of speech.  of course it doesn't come in fractions.  Thus if someone gets something wrong, they have it all wrong.

As for abuses in the NO, if one did it in Latin and even facing the altar, it still would not have the same theological weight as the Old Latin Mass.  I have seen both.  There is no compare, other than the thin veneer of the outward appearance.

Joe Zollars

[Deacon Lance]

Joe,

Then you do not understand the Roman Rite.  You have not spent enough time in any Church to have a good comprehension of the Liturgy let alone critique that of Church you don't belong to. The core remains the same and done reverently it is inspiring.  that is not to say one has to agree with every change or that there is no room for improvement.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Bogoliubtsy]

Abuses cannot be equated with what a the Latin Church teaches.  Eastern Catholics and Orthodox should be thankful such absues do not occur in their Churches.  
Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. Deacon,

Is not the Catholic Church your Church, despite the differences in Eastern Catholic practice?

[JoeZollars]

I based those statements not on my own opinions solely but only after extensive research and reading many books on the subject--and not only from traditionalist sources either.   Also I have seen the NO.  My dad is a "Eucharistic Minister" therein.  I have attended many of these false services, even in Latin and Ad Orientem (the First Mass of a very good friend).  I have seen the immense beauty of the Tridentine Mass and all its dependent services.  I was an Altar Boy at the Immemoriable Latin Mass on more than one occasion and was almost a Seminarian for the FSSP.  I have seen the HIgh Masses, Low Masses, and Solemn Masses not to mention the hundreds of Benedections, Perpetual Help Devotions, etc. I have attended and the two years reciting the Breviary.   There is an immense difference.  The NO may be reverent and beautiful, but there has to be more than that for them to be true and God Pleasing.  Bach's lutheran services are an immensely beautiful artistic achievement as is St. Paul's in London.  That doesn't make them true.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

of course even the most solemn of Pontifical High Masses is nothing compared to the simplest of Orthodox Church services.  For the Orthodox Services are truly God-pleasing whereas the Latin Mass (as well as any Catholic Service) merely plays to the passions of men.

Joe Zollars

[Mor Ephrem]

of course even the most solemn of Pontifical High Masses is nothing compared to the simplest of Orthodox Church services.  For the Orthodox Services are truly God-pleasing whereas the Latin Mass (as well as any Catholic Service) merely plays to the passions of men.

Maybe, but if I had only two options for Sunday worship--a Tridentine High Mass or the average SCOBA parish's Divine Liturgy--and I was making my decision purely on aesthetics (some of those "passions of men", no doubt), I would opt for the High Mass in a second.

[JoeZollars]

as would I, if I was basing the decision on aesthetics alone.  It has been my experience that the singing in the Orthodox Churches grates against the ears of this individual used to the quiet beauty of Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony.  However, there is something there in the Orthodox Church that is not there in the Latin Mass.  I won't bother trying to give it a name.

However, if your ever in the neighborhood and your in the mood for a good HighMass, may I suggest Our Lady of Clear Creek Priory in Hulbert OK.   The chanting is immense (as one can expect from this doaughter house of Fontgaumboult Abby).  They do have some Liturgical oddities to say the least and their chapel is shall we say rather plain being a converted horse barn.  But it is a really cool place. I used to lvoe going there real early int he morning for Matins followed by Low Mass.  All Seven Side Altars were used!

Joe Zollars

[Mor Ephrem]

Of course, I should add that the Syrian Rite is better than either of the options I mentioned above.  Then again, you might think I'm a little biased.  

[Mor Ephrem]

I'd like to visit Clear Creek at some point; I don't know when I'd be able to make it out there, though.

[JoeZollars]

Clear Creek is really cool--and the monks are good cooks too!  I have had many conversations with the monks there (they are native kansans after all).  They are kind, humble people.   I once gave considerable thought to becoming a monk there, but determined it wasn't the life for me.   I would point out one downside is that their High Mass is more 1965 missal rather than 62 missal.  But other than that it is a wonderful place.  They are building their new abby right now.  They started with a bridge that looks like it was dropped right out of medeival france, and now they are working on the big Church.  It should be an amazing site when it is completed.  I hope they stay as close to medeival architectural patterns as the bridge.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

I believe Subdeacon Benjamen Anderson of the AWRV wrote an article on Clear Creek a few months back.  I shall have to try and locate it if I can.

Joe Zollars

[Deacon Lance]

Peter,

The Catholic Church is my Church, but the Latin Church is not my Church.  The referenced abuses do not occur in my Byzantine Catholic Church.  That is not to say the abuses do not concern me, but neither do they directly affect me nor can I do anything about them.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Ebor]

Bach's lutheran services are an immensely beautiful artistic achievement as is St. Paul's in London.  That doesn't make them true.

Joe Zollars

Neither does it make them false, I think.  Bach wrote his music to the Glory of God. I think Sir Christopher Wren was not just thinking of pleasing himself, but wanted to do his best to make a house fit for the Lord...

But then, I believe that the services I go to off a Sunday and the BCP are meant to be God-ward as well.

Ebor

[Ebor]

as would I, if I was basing the decision on aesthetics alone.  It has been my experience that the singing in the Orthodox Churches grates against the ears of this individual used to the quiet beauty of Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony.  However, there is something there in the Orthodox Church that is not there in the Latin Mass.  I won't bother trying to give it a name.
Joe Zollars

It might be possible that for you there is something in the EO that is not in the Latin Mass.  For another it might be the reverse.  For another, Anglican chant and Evensong is where God touches them.  All are Christian.

Ebor

[Mor Ephrem]

http://abclocal.go.com/images/slide18_blessing_bread.jpg

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