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Poll
Question: Is the Papacy anti-Christ?
Yes!!!! - 2 (3.6%)
Maybe... - 10 (17.9%)
Nope - 14 (25%)
Oh Please, Do we really have to go over this again???!!! - 30 (53.6%)
Total Voters: 56

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Author Topic: Pope is Antichrist yet again  (Read 7885 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 15, 2010, 07:52:37 PM »

I decided to ask this after reading people's response on whether Islam was the great Beast of Revelation.
I chose not to answer my own poll, at least at first. I am actually not sure. I definitely believe that those who follow the basic Roman Catholic doctrines, even the ones my church and I personally consider anathema, are Christians.
That said I really don't like the Office of the Pope and never have, even if I did respect the late JP II.
What put a bug in my ear concerning the Papacy's possible connection is that the so-called Vicar of Christ has been around for a looooong time. Much longer than some of the other culprits such as Communism and Fascism. Also as I mentioned on the other thread to Mohamed's credit he never claimed to be personally divine or to sit in the place of God.
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« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2010, 07:57:28 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 08:02:50 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
I would say that that his self appointment of Vicar of Christ is pretty cloase. At any rate I ask that my respondents please vote.
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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 08:07:20 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
I would say that that his self appointment of Vicar of Christ is pretty cloase. At any rate I ask that my respondents please vote.
I thought that the Eastern Orthodox saw all bishops as Vicars of Christ.


St. Ignatius of Antioch:
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" —Letter to the Magnesians 2, 6:1
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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 08:10:52 PM »

Ok I placed my vote. Oh pulease!  Grin (stashko's favorite smiley has no patent pending)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 08:16:19 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 08:12:15 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.

Pope Leo XIII:
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." 

Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae, 1894

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm

There are other references by other Popes.
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 08:13:13 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
I would say that that his self appointment of Vicar of Christ is pretty cloase. At any rate I ask that my respondents please vote.

I voted. "oh, please." Cheesy

Vicar of Christ is neither of these. It means simply the Pope is a physical head on Earth of God's Church. He doesn't replace Jesus, he represents him physically to believers and, especially, non-believers.
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 08:14:53 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.

Pope Leo XIII:
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." 

Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae, 1894

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm

There are other references by other Popes.


I'm taking his point as being more literal. That is, to replace God, not merely a physical vicar.
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2010, 08:19:22 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.

Pope Leo XIII:
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."  

Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae, 1894

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm

There are other references by other Popes.

How is that different from this???

St. Ignatius of Antioch:
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" —Letter to the Magnesians 2, 6:1

Last time I checked, St. Ignatius was recognized as a saint by the EO Church.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 08:20:13 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2010, 08:20:24 PM »

Oh, for pity's sake.  Roll Eyes

On some sites, they have a 'sick to your stomach' smiley, and I have thought that it might be appropriate here also. In your first paragraph, you say that you believe they are Christians, and then comes your second paragraph, which wipes it all away.

Is this supposed to be serious, or what? Did you get this from a Jack Chick tract?

 Angry

This sort of thing used to be called "flame bait" because it's to provoke strenuous argument, not insights, and it's really very difficult not to take it as offensive, so it chews up lots of board space and divides people, and pretty soon they're just yelling at each other. Most boards have a policy about that.

You know, I have considered becoming Orthodox for a long time before I actually tried to do it. I understand that people have their differences. Some of them are established and legitimate. I could see people sitting down and wanting to talk about them. However, to start off a thread with a title like "Pope is Antichrist yet again," is-- let's just not get into detail about what it is. I think I'm not allowed to use certain language on this board.

My point is, there is debate that you can take seriously, and then there's stuff that you can't. If I got on a bus and someone next to me said, "What do you think about the Pope's decision about such-and-such? I'm not sure I like it. Here's why," I might talk to that person. I don't know if I'd agree with them or not, but we could talk like grown-ups. However, if I sat next to a person, and he or she said, "The Pope is Antichrist!", I think I'd pull the 'Stop Requested' cord and try to get off that bus pretty darn quickly. I can transfer to another line, or just take a long walk.

I grew up Catholic, and while I have come to believe in the Orthodox stance on things, I might have already been Orthodox a few years ago-- except for the fact that I kept running into some unfortunate people who would say very offensive things about the Catholics. Not just disagreements, but really disgusting comments that didn't seem to be true and certainly weren't in a charitable Christian spirit. I know, there are probably some bad apples in any large groups of people, and there may be some on the Catholic side as well. Still, if people push me away, I don't go where I'm not wanted. I go to a lovely parish, and I want to become Orthodox, really I do. I am not kidding. But what am I to do if I'm at a church dinner one day, about to plow into my salad, and somebody pipes up, "You know, the Pope is Antichrist!" No matter what else is wrong with the Catholic Church, nobody ever did that when I was growing up. Nobody.

As I see it, the issue of the papacy is whether the office is filled by a person who does so with a correct spirit and who has Christian compassion; for if it's bad that it simply exists, somebody on the Orthodox side had better be consistent and do some talking to Pope Shenouda III of the See of St. Mark. Notice, how the anti-Catholic people never do that? But there's not just one Pope in the world, you know... oh, forget it, sometimes you can't expect consistency.  Roll Eyes

I wonder that people never remember Christ's injunction that "the end is not yet." I know there are some people on this board who are hardcore anti-Papists and who may not be satisfied unless the entire country of Italy is removed from the map and replaced by a 3D plastic kit. Somehow I don't think I'll see a story like that on the news anytime soon.

I love the people in my parish. I'd hate to stop going there. Things like this put a wrench in the works, though, and for no good reason at all.
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2010, 08:29:57 PM »

Much longer than some of the other culprits such as Communism and Fascism. Also as I mentioned on the other thread to Mohamed's credit he never claimed to be personally divine or to sit in the place of God.
Don't give him too much credit. Mohammed made many false claims; He denied the Deity of Jesus, saying He was just a man - a great prophet, but not the Divine Son of God.

Also, many people do credit the late Pope for being instrumental in communism's downfall.
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2010, 08:38:16 PM »

Personally, I think saying or implying that anyone is the Anti-Christ is the most ultimate judgment you can make against another person.  What are we going to say to Christ if we've said that a certain person is the Anti-Christ and that person is not?  Look at all those who were sure that Pope John Paul II was the AC, and, obviously, he was not. 
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2010, 08:42:00 PM »



As I see it, the issue of the papacy is whether the office is filled by a person who does so with a correct spirit and who has Christian compassion; for if it's bad that it simply exists, somebody on the Orthodox side had better be consistent and do some talking to Pope Shenouda III of the See of St. Mark. Notice, how the anti-Catholic people never do that? But there's not just one Pope in the world, you know... oh, forget it, sometimes you can't expect consistency.  Roll Eyes



Not that I take issue with most of the content of your post, but this particular paragraph has an error that derides from the rest of your argument.  Being against the Roman conception of "pope" does not mean being against the title of "Pope" as it is used in other contexts.  That would be the same as saying that being against the Bishop of Rome means that one is against bishops.  If the Alexandrian Pope claimed that his office and his office alone had the authority to infallibly define doctrine for the Church you would have a point, but I've never heard of such a claim coming from Alexandria.  Such a claim is limited to only one of the five historical Sees, and that is Rome.

That said, I voted "oh please..."  I know enough from Chick comics that I can say unless Pope Benedict is a Freemason/Witch/Muslim with the Dungeon Master's Guide on his bookshelf (complete with his Level 20 half-Drow Ranger character sheet), then no, he's not the Antichrist  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2010, 08:42:19 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.

Pope Leo XIII:
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." 

Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae, 1894

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm

There are other references by other Popes.


READ IN CONTEXT:

"But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, Who, when about to return to Heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest Prayer, that His Disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray . . . that they all may be one, as Thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us.  And as this Divine Prayer and Supplication does not include only the souls who then believed in Jesus Christ, but also every one of those who were henceforth to believe in Him, this Prayer holds out to Us no indifferent reason for confidently expressing Our hopes, and for making all possible endeavors in order that the men of every race and clime should be called and moved to embrace the Unity of Divine Faith."

Context is VERY essential. Proof?

Psalm 14:1 (Out of context)
There is no God.

Psalm 14:1 (In context)
For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2010, 08:45:40 PM »

I decided to ask this after reading people's response on whether Islam was the great Beast of Revelation.
I chose not to answer my own poll, at least at first. I am actually not sure. I definitely believe that those who follow the basic Roman Catholic doctrines, even the ones my church and I personally consider anathema, are Christians.
That said I really don't like the Office of the Pope and never have, even if I did respect the late JP II.
What put a bug in my ear concerning the Papacy's possible connection is that the so-called Vicar of Christ has been around for a looooong time. Much longer than some of the other culprits such as Communism and Fascism. Also as I mentioned on the other thread to Mohamed's credit he never claimed to be personally divine or to sit in the place of God.
Are you sure you ever left Protestant sectarianism?
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2010, 08:46:09 PM »

oh, NM.  This thread is pointless. 
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2010, 08:46:12 PM »

biro - you are my hero!

Great post!
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2010, 08:56:25 PM »

biro - you are my hero!

Great post!

Thank you.   Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2010, 09:11:26 PM »

While I would not want to call the Pope the Antichrist, it is true that other Orthodox in fact do - the monks of Mount Athos for example, many of the Greek bishops, and many conservative Orthodox.  One has only to look at the writings of Saint Justin the New of Serbia.

Drawing back though from calling the Pope the Antichrist, would it be within the realm of moderate Orthodoxy to say that the institution of the papacy is the forerunner of Antichrist?
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2010, 09:35:45 PM »

While I would not want to call the Pope the Antichrist, it is true that other Orthodox in fact do - the monks of Mount Athos for example, many of the Greek bishops, and many conservative Orthodox.  One has only to look at the writings of Saint Justin the New of Serbia.

Drawing back though from calling the Pope the Antichrist, would it be within the realm of moderate Orthodoxy to say that the institution of the papacy is the forerunner of Antichrist?

I think that kind of language is only appropriate when speaking amongst Orthodox brethren.  There are many reasons why it is prudent to use such strongly-worded language when dealing with our own, especially those who knowingly or unknowingly are compromising the Orthodox teaching that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  But using it amongst mixed company is not prudent, IMHO.  I think there are better ways to explain our position to the non-orthodox, particularly Roman Catholics.  Such strong language is a pitcher of cold water in the face.  For instance, I highly recommend Fr. Seraphim Rose's "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" to many of my Orthodox friends, but I *never* recommend it to Protestants, especially Charismatics.  I think there is a better, more compassionate way, of dealing with their erros.  Just my own POV, of course.
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2010, 09:36:28 PM »

Of course the Papacy as it exists now is anti-Christ.
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2010, 09:43:58 PM »

Of course the Papacy as it exists now is anti-Christ.

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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2010, 09:54:39 PM »

The Papacy has been doing its darnedest to destroy the Church of Christ for over 1500 years now. How could that be anything but anti-Christ?
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2010, 09:56:01 PM »

The Papacy has been doing its darnedest to destroy the Church of Christ for over 1500 years now. How could that be anything but anti-Christ?

 Roll Eyes

Mother of Mercy.
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2010, 09:56:50 PM »

The Papacy has been doing its darnedest to destroy the Church of Christ for over 1500 years now. How could that be anything but anti-Christ?

 Roll Eyes

Mother of Mercy.

Well? Care to answer my question?
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2010, 09:59:15 PM »

Quote from: deusveritasest
Well? Care to answer my question?

What question? All I saw was a rhetorical diatribe.

Care to make a substantive post instead of offensive nonsense?

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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2010, 10:00:14 PM »

The Papacy has been doing its darnedest to destroy the Church of Christ for over 1500 years now. How could that be anything but anti-Christ?

No.
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2010, 10:04:31 PM »

Quote from: deusveritasest
Well? Care to answer my question?

What question? All I saw was a rhetorical diatribe.

Care to make a substantive post instead of offensive nonsense?



The question was:

How could the Papacy be anything but anti-Christ given that it has been trying to destroy the Church of Christ for more than 1500 years?
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2010, 10:04:45 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
I would say that that his self appointment of Vicar of Christ is pretty cloase. At any rate I ask that my respondents please vote.
I thought that the Eastern Orthodox saw all bishops as Vicars of Christ.


St. Ignatius of Antioch:
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" —Letter to the Magnesians 2, 6:1

I like how everyone is ignoring you.
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2010, 10:04:54 PM »

The Papacy has been doing its darnedest to destroy the Church of Christ for over 1500 years now. How could that be anything but anti-Christ?

No.

Your answer is nonsensical.
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 10:06:41 PM »

The Papacy has been doing its darnedest to destroy the Church of Christ for over 1500 years now. How could that be anything but anti-Christ?

No.

Your answer is nonsensical.

So is your question.
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2010, 10:08:54 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
I would say that that his self appointment of Vicar of Christ is pretty cloase. At any rate I ask that my respondents please vote.
I thought that the Eastern Orthodox saw all bishops as Vicars of Christ.

St. Ignatius of Antioch:
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" —Letter to the Magnesians 2, 6:1

I like how everyone is ignoring you.

High five, Papist!

...on the rebound.
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2010, 10:10:30 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
I would say that that his self appointment of Vicar of Christ is pretty cloase. At any rate I ask that my respondents please vote.
I thought that the Eastern Orthodox saw all bishops as Vicars of Christ.


St. Ignatius of Antioch:
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" —Letter to the Magnesians 2, 6:1

I like how everyone is ignoring you.
Haha. Yeah, I noticed it too.   Cheesy
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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2010, 10:15:02 PM »

The Papacy has been doing its darnedest to destroy the Church of Christ for over 1500 years now. How could that be anything but anti-Christ?

No.

Your answer is nonsensical.

So is your question.

I don't see how.
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2010, 10:24:36 PM »

The Papacy has been doing its darnedest to destroy the Church of Christ for over 1500 years now. How could that be anything but anti-Christ?
No.
Your answer is nonsensical.
So is your question.
I don't see how.

You have to accept the Pope (as an office) as attempting to destroy the Church of Christ.

Some/many may agree that there have been anti-popes (those not fitting for the magnitude of responsibility and position of Pope), but to claim the office is in and of itself an attempt to destroy the Church of Christ can be construed as nonsensical.
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« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2010, 10:24:48 PM »

Quote from: deusveritasest

Your answer is nonsensical.

 Roll Eyes

You wrote an inaccurate outburst. I responded to you by calling that what it was, much as a firefighter can't put out a house fire by calling it something else. Maybe I shouldn't have done that:

Mt. 5:43-45
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

If you want to push people out of the body of Christ, go ahead and do that, but say that's what you want to do, beforehand. There are over one billion Catholics in the world. Like them or not, odds are that one out of every six people you bump into on this planet is Catholic. It's just math. Would you talk to all of them the way you talked to me? How do you think they would want to talk to you?

You've got a lot more pushing to do.

I have come to see that I have a lot of repenting to do. A lot. Oh, boy. But how much do you think you are going to grow the Orthodox faith by what you've said?

What kind of light do you shine?

I hope that this Nativity Fast will bring me more peace, and help me in my discernment. And you as well.
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« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2010, 10:27:59 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
I would say that that his self appointment of Vicar of Christ is pretty cloase. At any rate I ask that my respondents please vote.
I thought that the Eastern Orthodox saw all bishops as Vicars of Christ.

St. Ignatius of Antioch:
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" —Letter to the Magnesians 2, 6:1


If only the Pope would hold to this teaching and acknowledge that he presides in the same manner as every bishop and has no higher privilege or authority than they do.  But the Pope's claim to preside in the place of God is quite different to what Saint Ignatius is writing to the Magnesians.
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« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2010, 10:30:45 PM »

Don't take deusveritasest's responses personally.  He isn't exactly known around here for his kindness and tact. 

And regarding Papist's post, I wasn't ignoring it.  I never disputed that the bishop is a representative of Christ. 
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« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2010, 10:35:38 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
I would say that that his self appointment of Vicar of Christ is pretty cloase. At any rate I ask that my respondents please vote.
I thought that the Eastern Orthodox saw all bishops as Vicars of Christ.

St. Ignatius of Antioch:
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" —Letter to the Magnesians 2, 6:1


If only the Pope would hold to this teaching and acknowledge that he presides in the same manner as every bishop and has no higher privilege or authority than they do.  But the Pope's claim to preside in the place of God is quite different to what Saint Ignatius is writing to the Magnesians.

R. Catholics hold that all ordained are "Vicars of Christ" in respect to their position in the Sacraments. However, believing that the Pope holds a special place as physical head of God's Church on Earth, he is the Vicar of Christ.
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« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2010, 10:36:19 PM »

The Pope has never claimed to be personally divine or sit in the place if God.
I would say that that his self appointment of Vicar of Christ is pretty cloase. At any rate I ask that my respondents please vote.
I thought that the Eastern Orthodox saw all bishops as Vicars of Christ.

St. Ignatius of Antioch:
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" —Letter to the Magnesians 2, 6:1


If only the Pope would hold to this teaching and acknowledge that he presides in the same manner as every bishop and has no higher privilege or authority than they do.  But the Pope's claim to preside in the place of God is quite different to what Saint Ignatius is writing to the Magnesians.
But in both places,  there are claims that some one is an iconic representation of God, without actually being God. No idolotry here. No claiming that a human being is God. So there you have it. You can keep trying to claim this nonsense all over the internet, and I will continue to expose your weak argument. Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2010, 10:40:44 PM »

Some/many may agree that there have been anti-popes (those not fitting for the magnitude of responsibility and position of Pope), but to claim the office is in and of itself an attempt to destroy the Church of Christ can be construed as nonsensical.

The office of the papacy is as alien to the Church of Christ as the office of the female episcopate, and both are destructive.
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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2010, 10:41:43 PM »

This has always confused me.  What is the difference between "Vicar of Christ," as the Catholics believe the Pope to be, and the iconic representations of Christ that the Orthodox believe all bishops to be?
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2010, 10:42:02 PM »

Some/many may agree that there have been anti-popes (those not fitting for the magnitude of responsibility and position of Pope), but to claim the office is in and of itself an attempt to destroy the Church of Christ can be construed as nonsensical.

The office of the papacy is as alien to the Church of Christ as the office of the female episcopate, and both are destructive.
Actually, the Papacy was established by Jesus. Cheesy
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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2010, 10:42:21 PM »

This has always confused me.  What is the difference between "Vicar of Christ," as the Catholics believe the Pope to be, and the iconic representations of Christ that the Orthodox believe all bishops to be?
The answer to that question is: Polemics
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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2010, 10:42:34 PM »

I think we need a 'shrugs' smiley, too.

Unrelated blog links and personal commentary removed.

If he wants to pick a fight that much, he can go to the Vatican's own website, and talk about it. I'm serious. If he thinks his claims can fly, why not stand up for what he says, and say it to the people he's talking about?

I think maybe he knows it's not so, and is using the subject as an outlet for other things. May the Lord help him.
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