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Author Topic: The European Union is good or bad  (Read 3395 times) Average Rating: 0
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romanbyzantium
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« on: March 31, 2004, 07:43:18 PM »

Do you consider the european union to be a good idea or a bad idea?  

I believe it is a great idea cause it finally unites all of europe under one common identity...." EUROPEAN"

All the wars fought to unite the continent is finally being achieved without on shot being fired.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 07:44:53 PM by romanbyzantium » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2004, 07:44:21 PM »

The EU is godless false catholicity.
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2004, 07:45:21 PM »

explain yourself?
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« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2004, 07:58:36 PM »

I think the EU will serve to slowly strip independent and distinct nations of their unique cultural heritages. Because of the EU, all nations included will be forced to act in a unilateral way, based sometimes on vague notions "equality" which seems to amount to nothing more than secular humanism.  Nations with a historically more Christian understanding of things will have to come in line with this secular world-view or face certain sanctions and pressure from their "brother" nations. This can all be seen in the recent Mt. Athos debate.

Besides that, the EU will help strengthen the one world government which is required for the advent of anti-christ. But that's a given.  Wink
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2004, 08:04:30 PM »

I think the EU will serve to slowly strip independent and distinct nations of their unique cultural heritages. Because of the EU, all nations included will be forced to act in a unilateral way, based sometimes on vague notions "equality" which seems to amount to nothing more than secular humanism.  Nations with a historically more Christian understanding of things will have to come in line with this secular world-view or face certain sanctions and pressure from their "brother" nations. This can all be seen in the recent Mt. Athos debate.

don't think so. everyone has freedom of religion. and the EU constitution is still being debated. the pope has been very vocal about keeping the christian idenity of europe alive and clearly stated  in the constitution.

Besides that, the EU will help strengthen the one world government which is required for the advent of anti-christ. But that's a given.  Wink

1. what Mount Athos debate?

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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2004, 08:13:19 PM »

1. what Mount Athos debate?



Basically, the EU tried to force Greece to allow women to visit Mt. Athos.
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2004, 08:21:34 PM »

Basically, the EU tried to force Greece to allow women to visit Mt. Athos.

How can the EU force something that has been agreed by treaty when greece joined the EU and it is established by greek constitution. That issue won't get anywhere.

Some EU members are getting like the USA.... " I am taking you to court" Grin
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2004, 10:34:09 PM »

1)destruction of national identity
2)weakening of democracy
3)Franco-German values being forced on the rest
4)destruction of the way of life of people who can't compete in the wider international market

Umm...what is it here that I'm supposed to like?
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2004, 10:37:29 PM »

1)destruction of national identity

EUROPEAN sounds good to me

2)weakening of democracy

how so?

3)Franco-German values being forced on the rest

not really


4)destruction of the way of life of people who can't compete in the wider international market

survival of the fittest and strongest

Umm...what is it here that I'm supposed to like?
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lellimore
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2004, 11:10:59 PM »

1)European...does Europe have a common language, a common culture, a common historical identity, a common political atmosphere?  Nope.
2)International organizations are more bureaucratic in nature and less responsible to the people than are national.  The EU is in the hands of elite social engineers, not the people.
3)Yes, really.  Everyone knows that France and Germany are the driving force behind the EU (although Britain is gaining influence)  These two nations have the most influence on EU policy, which in turn places ridiculous limits on the social and economic options of every state.  Especially Eastern Europe has had to reform greatly to conform to EU rules, at the risk of "economic excommunication".
4)Three cheers for social Darwinism!  Need I say more?
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2004, 11:20:14 PM »

Perhaps the older member states have some things in common...but the new member states and those applying for membership don't share much of the same history or culture with Western Europe. New member states include: Cyprus,    
Czech Republic, Estonia Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta    
Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. Those applying are: Bulgaria     
Romania and Turkey.

The fact is, this isn't some popular movement the people are desiring- the EU is a creation of heads of state for economic benefit/expansion. The EU will serve the interests of global capitalism meanwhile creating a homogenized Euro State- at the expense of traditional cultures and values
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2004, 11:38:58 PM »

I would like to see more sensible international European organizations, like perhaps one for Eastern Europe, one for the British isles and Scandinavia, and another for Western Europe.  And each should be far more non-interventionist than the EU
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2004, 12:57:53 AM »

I would like to see more sensible international European organizations, like perhaps one for Eastern Europe, one for the British isles and Scandinavia, and another for Western Europe.  And each should be far more non-interventionist than the EU

Interesting. so instread of having a united europe, you would like to see different blocs. well thank God for the europeans who voted to unite.
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2004, 01:02:36 AM »

Perhaps the older member states have some things in common...but the new member states and those applying for membership don't share much of the same history or culture with Western Europe. New member states include: Cyprus, Huh
Czech Republic, Estonia Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta Huh
Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. Those applying are: Bulgaria  Huh
Romania and Turkey.

these countries are aware of the european identity. It is not there fault that some of them were behind the iron wall. they want to join especially turkey. But turkey is not fully european. that is a problem for some of the member states.

The fact is, this isn't some popular movement the people are desiring- the EU is a creation of heads of state for economic benefit/expansion. The EU will serve the interests of global capitalism meanwhile creating a homogenized Euro State- at the expense of traditional cultures and values

If it wasn't popular the people wouldn't have voted to join.  There are countries that can't wait to join. I wonder if russia will join?
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« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2004, 01:23:16 AM »

If the EU runs their affairs in the manner some of their member states have 'administered' Kosovo, I'd say the effort will collapse. I would like for them to succeed for the right reasons, but am just not optimistic that they have the proper motivation or the ability to make it work long term.

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« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2004, 11:34:36 AM »

No, Russia wouldn't join, & I don't know if the EU would let them join, considering more then 1/2 the country is in Asia.
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« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2004, 01:15:12 PM »

Interesting. so instread of having a united europe, you would like to see different blocs. well thank God for the europeans who voted to unite.
Other than using the word "united" as a catchphrase, I don't see an argument here.
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« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2004, 01:19:10 PM »

Well, they're letting Turkey in, and much more than half of that is in Asia!  As to the claim that the countries made their own decision to join, this isn't entirely accurate.  As I referred to before, the EU as it grows develops a power of "economic excommunication" over surrounding states.  It's not just a matter of the states joining the union for economic benefit, it's that the union actually hurts them economically if they stay out.  Besides, even if it is their decision, I'm not challenging their right to make it.  I'm just saying the path Europe is currently following is foolish, anti-democratic and cruel.
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« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2004, 02:48:32 PM »

As someone who spends most of his professional life dealing with European matters, I have to say that the EU is neithyer good nor bad ... it has aspects of both, as with any other similar organization.

On the one hand, the EU has dramatically impacted the way Europeans view each other, has made the likelihood of another war in central and western Europe remote, has encouraged much cross-border movement of people for jobs, study, holidays and the like ... it has begun to knit Europe closer together.  There are very few Europeans outside of a very small internationalist elite who really consider themselves "European" as an identity, but even for the masses who still primarily identify with their national identity, other Europeans are less strange, less distant and more workable than would have been the case without the EU.  All of this is a very good thing for Europe and Europeans.

On the downside, the EU is not a very democratic institution, it is an international bureaucracy headed by representatives selected by the member state governments, but not directly by the citizens of the EU.  The European Parliament, which is directly elected, has only an advisory role and no real power.  This is becoming increasingly problematic because the EU is constantly expanding its role ... moving from its origins as a customs union to a much broader dossier covering many aspects of daily life in the member states.  There is definitely an encroachment on national power, and it is happening at the expense of the democractically elected governments and in favor of an undemocratically selected one ... and that is a negative.

In terms of forcing Franco-German ideas on everyone else, lol, yes this is an issue but the Europeans are onto it.  Witness the revolt of all of the small European countries against Germany and France in terms of the stance on the Iraq war.  The New York Times makes it sound like all of Europe was against the US, but in reality it was Germany, France and Italy ... the small countries like Holland, Denmark, Poland (soon an EU member) followed American leadership over and against towing the Franco-German line, which infuriated Berlin and Paris and led to President Chirac's condescending comments about the Polish government (words which certainly earned France no friends in the eastern part of central europe hehehe).  My own sense of how this is happening is that the larger the EU grows, particularly in Eastern and Southeastern Europe, the weaker the Franco-German hegemony becomes of neccessity.  The Franco-Germans know this, and this is why they have proposed that the EU constitution be amended to remove the need for unanimity ... but this makes matters even worse than they are because then we would have an undemocratic EU that could act for all member states without their agreement!!  As a practical matter, I don't see the other member states agreeing to this.

Yes there is a cultural smushing going on, but that seems natural.  The EU will not get far trying to change things in Greece.  What the EU really needs is more Orthodox countries to become members, but that won't happen quickly (the nearest candidates now are really Romania and Bulgaria and they are probably a ways off given the economies there).  Yes, there is a general misunderstanding among secular Western Europeans regarding the Greeks and the rest of the Orthodox part of Europe.  But I think that as the EU grows, perhaps this understanding will grow over time ... who knows.

As a practical matter, I don't see the EU really evolving into a superstate.  The national identities in Europe are too strong, and they are reinforced by language and cultural differences that really serve to prevent the emergence of any kind of federal state that resembles the federal government in the USA, for example.

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« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2004, 11:26:25 PM »

Interesting...most of that seems pretty agreeable to me, but I have a question.  Don't you think that a lot of damage has already been done by the Franco-German influence?  Even if the smaller states are trying to get more influence, the EU as its policies currently are don't reflect that.  These current policies will continue for a long time to come.  About the superstate, I think you're right, and I definitely hope you are!  I just think, firstly, that the EU is too big, and secondly, that as a political entity it is harmful.  I think it's positive effects could be maintained by a customs union or free trade zone.
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2004, 09:45:20 AM »

I agree that the French and the Germans have been driving the bus so far, certainly, and yes quite a bit of damage has been done so far ... but they have grander visions, I think.  They are some European elites who really *do* want to compete with the United States as a global power and extend European ideas (as opposed to American ones) to the rest of the world, and the only way this really happens is through some kind of superstate structure, with a real foreign policy that speaks with one voice.  

Whether this was achievable under the smaller, 12-state union is debatable.  But it will be even less achievable under the larger union, because there is simply a lack of consensus, and unless the rest of Europe agrees to switch from a unanimity system to a majoritarian system (which would be akin to handing their national sovereignty to Berlin and Paris by way of Brussels), this won't fly and there will be a lot of stalemating going on.

The real question in my mind is that if this scenario in fact happens (ie, continuation of unanimity requirements resulting in a stalemating), what is the real future of the Franco-German partnership?  There are a number of observers, including me, who view the relationship between Paris and Berlin as similar to that which exists between Bill and Hillary Clinton ... not a love match, but a very useful symbiotic relationship for both participants.  By latching itself to France, Germany, a country which for many decades could not really assert itself internationally due to historical factors, was able to gain that voice indirectly through Paris.  And for the part of France, by latching itself to the real economic engine in Europe, Germany, France was able to gain an influence over the European economy and a standing within Europe that it otherwise would never have had.  It was a very useful relationship for both of them for quite some time, but the limits of that are being tested now I think.  The brouhaha about Iraq really brought this to the foreground ... it was France and Germany shoulder to shoulder again, but where were the other European governments?  Not locking shoulders with Paris and Berlin, that's for sure, regardless of their own public opinion polls.  The other European governments have had quite enough, I think, of Franco-German bullying, and saw this as an international political issue rather than an issue of public opinion.  Going forward, as the EU enlarges and if it remains a unanimity-based system .... does Germany stray and try to rebuild its own traditional sphere of influence in Central and Eastern Europe?  France has clearly been worried about this since 1990 (remember how unsupportive Paris was of German reunification?), because if Germany becomes a more independent voice in Europe and feels that it needs French "respectability" less, that does not bode well for maintaining French influence.  True, there is an entire generation of Germans who have been raised with the idea that the Franco-German partnership is a kind of holy grail ... but there is also a younger generation now who views Germany increasingly as a "normal" country, and who will when they come to power, wish to normalize things, and perhaps this won't involve maintaining quite the claustophobically close relationship with Paris if that isn't in Germany's interest.  In any case it will be fascinating to see how this plays out ... whatever happens there will have a reverberating effect throughout the remainder of the EU.

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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2004, 10:43:09 AM »

Hmmm-- this sounds like the reason the USA has a house and a senate.
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2004, 12:07:34 PM »

Keble --

Hehe, but that assumes that the constituent states are willing to surrender a part of their sovereignty to a population-based body ... I doubt that the nation state members of the EU are willing to do this, because it makes Germany the most influential state (has a big advantage over almost everyone else, at 81m, the next closest are all in the low-mid 50s).

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« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2004, 01:35:53 PM »

I've eaten European onions. They're pretty good. Not much different from American onions, though.

The watermelons in southern Russian are especially good, though smaller than our own. And the peanuts there are really good. You can buy them on the street in Volgograd from old babushki: a rolled up newspaper cone full for about 5 - 6 rubles.  That and a 20 oz. Coke for 12 - 15 rubles, and you have an inexpensive lunch.  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2004, 09:25:12 PM »

Wow.  I've got to visit Russia.  I could really go for a rolled up newspaper full of peanuts and a coke about now.  Linus, since you're from the south, you'll know about this....Ever drop one of the peanuts in the coke and let it sit there 'til you're done, and then eat it?  Don't know why, but that combination of salt and sugar really hits the spot.  My relatives in NC do that all the time.

But anyway, I've heard a couple of people criticize the EU, the UN, and other such organizations because they feel that they are playing into the anti-Christ's plan of one world government.  I understand the concern, but let me ask this question.  Do you really believe that God wants all the so-called "races" and nations of the Earth to remain separate?  I mean, weren't we all united before the Tower of Babel?  And when the Lord comes again, I doubt the Faithful will be separated by nationality.  There won't be a Germantown or a Little Bucharest in Paradise.  God didn't create us as separate tribes.  We all came from Adam and Eve.  Of course a one world govt. under the anti-Christ would be awful (As would any kind of govt. under him for that matter!), but surely the Archie Bunker mentality isn't the Christian one: "Everyone's free to live in his own separate neighborhood.  And they'll bash your head if you go in there!".
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« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2004, 10:39:04 PM »

lol that's obviously going too far, but I think the EU and other such things go to the opposite extreme.  As long as the nations get along with each other and have some amount of interaction, I don't think it's problematic that they remain nations.  I think that people should love their nation in the same way they love their family, merely because it is theirs.  Because of limitations of practicality, true society can only be achieved under certain circumstances and among groups of a certain size.  Just as the "love of the particular" draws families together, so it should draw individual nations together as a nation.  It is true that all of this will pass away, but not yet.
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2004, 12:54:01 PM »

Quote
Antonious Nikolas: Wow.  I've got to visit Russia.  I could really go for a rolled up newspaper full of peanuts and a coke about now.  Linus, since you're from the south, you'll know about this....Ever drop one of the peanuts in the coke and let it sit there 'til you're done, and then eat it?  Don't know why, but that combination of salt and sugar really hits the spot.  My relatives in NC do that all the time.

You would enjoy Russia, AN. Yes, I have put peanuts in soda pop, but more often in Dr. Pepper than in Coke. In fact, I introduced that practice to some Russian friends in Moscow, and they liked it. I don't  know whether or not it will ever catch on there, however. I also knew an American girl there from Texas who introduced a whole lot of Russians to Tex-Mex cuisine!  Grin

You're right, though: there's something about the taste of peanuts that have soaked in pop for awhile that is just too good.  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2004, 12:56:36 PM »

Linus,

DR Pepper is THE BEST! Smiley

anastasios
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« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2004, 12:58:54 PM »

Linus,

DR Pepper is THE BEST! Smiley

anastasios

Amen!  Grin
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