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Offline TristanCross

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Orthodox Mass
« on: November 14, 2010, 09:45:30 PM »
I'm wondering what language the Orthodox mass is in. I've never been to one or seen a video of one in America.

Thanks
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 09:48:08 PM »
I'm wondering what language the Orthodox mass is in. I've never been to one or seen a video of one in America.

Thanks
Depends where you are at. Mine in Egypt is in Arabic (and Greek). In Chicago, English.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TristanCross

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2010, 10:04:16 PM »
I live in New York. There's a Greek Orthodox church near me as well as a OCA church.
"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 10:17:19 PM »
I live in New York. There's a Greek Orthodox church near me as well as a OCA church.

The OCA church will probably be in English. The Greek church will probably have at least some Greek, and possibly some English.
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When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline TristanCross

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2010, 10:19:15 PM »
Thanks!
"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2010, 10:25:24 PM »
The Orthodox Church serves Divine Liturgy, not Mass.

The language of the service ranges from parish to parish.  An OCA parish will most likely be in English.  Others will most likely be in their native tongue, with some English.

Your best bet is to call ahead, or just go and see.  Either way, don't let the language stop you.

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Offline mike

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 04:08:08 AM »
The Orthodox Church serves Divine Liturgy, not Mass.

Let's quit this semantics thing ;)
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 11:35:16 AM »
The Orthodox Church serves Divine Liturgy, not Mass.

Let's quit this semantics thing ;)

Especially since it's incorrect. The Orthodox Church can indeed celebrate an Orthodox mass. Let's not forget our WR brethren.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline genesisone

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2010, 11:44:48 AM »
In Nassar's Divine Prayers and Services, he definitely refers to "The Mass" where one would expect "Divine Liturgy".  I am well aware of translation issues but that could be one source (not the OP's I realize) of the use of the term in Orthodoxy.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2010, 12:15:10 PM »

Forgive my lack of "political correctness".
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2010, 01:21:58 PM »
The Orthodox Church serves Divine Liturgy, not Mass.

Let's quit this semantics thing ;)

Really now?  ???

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Offline lizzyd

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2010, 01:51:44 PM »
OP, there are many videos available of an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Try searching for "Divine Liturgy" or "OCA Divine Liturgy."

I am still a newbie Orthodox Christian, but I never hear anyone refer to "Divine Liturgy" as "Mass." I thought "Mass" was a Latin term??

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2010, 01:58:23 PM »

Risking being called a "Pharisee", again...

    - The term "Mass" is derived from the Late Latin word missa (dismissal), a word used in the concluding formula of Mass.
    - Liturgy comes from ancient Greek, leitourgia, which is translated into "service".

I was always taught that the Roman Catholics serve a "Mass", and the Orthodox serve a "Divine Liturgy".

...sometimes I feel we are too politically correct. 

;)

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline lizzyd

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2010, 02:04:24 PM »
Thanks Liza, that's what I thought as well.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2010, 02:12:39 PM »

I was always taught that the Roman Catholics serve a "Mass", and the Orthodox serve a "Divine Liturgy".
I understand it that way myself. That being said, the two services are equivalent in the liturgical life of the ordinary parishioner, and I don't quibble when a non-Orthodox says "Mass". I might use the opportunity to correct if the situation warrants it. I've even learned not to react when I hear some Orthodox say the same thing. Usually they are older and have had some connection to Roman Catholicism. And as I said earlier, it's the term in Nassar's Five-Pounder.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2010, 02:16:18 PM »
In Nassar's Divine Prayers and Services, he definitely refers to "The Mass" where one would expect "Divine Liturgy".  I am well aware of translation issues but that could be one source (not the OP's I realize) of the use of the term in Orthodoxy.

Does he always call it the Mass or does he use the two terms interchangeably?
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline samkim

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2010, 02:32:26 PM »

Risking being called a "Pharisee", again...

    - The term "Mass" is derived from the Late Latin word missa (dismissal), a word used in the concluding formula of Mass.
    - Liturgy comes from ancient Greek, leitourgia, which is translated into "service".

I was always taught that the Roman Catholics serve a "Mass", and the Orthodox serve a "Divine Liturgy".

...sometimes I feel we are too politically correct. 

;)



I don't understand how you're using the term "politically correct."

Go to the middle east. The Orthodox Christians there call it Mass.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2010, 03:21:44 PM »
In Nassar's Divine Prayers and Services, he definitely refers to "The Mass" where one would expect "Divine Liturgy".  I am well aware of translation issues but that could be one source (not the OP's I realize) of the use of the term in Orthodoxy.

Does he always call it the Mass or does he use the two terms interchangeably?
He does provide "The Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom and Basil the Great", but in the sections of the Menaion, Triodion, Pentecostarion the daily variables for the DL are under the heading "3. The Mass" which follows "1. Vespers", "2. Matins". Of course his use of "Matins" instead of "Orthros" seems to be another divergence from other texts.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2010, 05:03:35 PM »
In Nassar's Divine Prayers and Services, he definitely refers to "The Mass" where one would expect "Divine Liturgy".  I am well aware of translation issues but that could be one source (not the OP's I realize) of the use of the term in Orthodoxy.

Does he always call it the Mass or does he use the two terms interchangeably?
He does provide "The Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom and Basil the Great", but in the sections of the Menaion, Triodion, Pentecostarion the daily variables for the DL are under the heading "3. The Mass" which follows "1. Vespers", "2. Matins". Of course his use of "Matins" instead of "Orthros" seems to be another divergence from other texts.

Thanks. I'm curious about the contents of this volume. Does it include the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts?
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2010, 05:10:05 PM »

Risking being called a "Pharisee", again...

    - The term "Mass" is derived from the Late Latin word missa (dismissal), a word used in the concluding formula of Mass.
    - Liturgy comes from ancient Greek, leitourgia, which is translated into "service".

I was always taught that the Roman Catholics serve a "Mass", and the Orthodox serve a "Divine Liturgy".

...sometimes I feel we are too politically correct. 

;)



I don't understand how you're using the term "politically correct."

Go to the middle east. The Orthodox Christians there call it Mass.
That's because Arabic quddaas translates both  Latin missa and Greek leitourgia.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Dart

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2010, 05:13:36 PM »
The word "Mass" is sometimes incorrectly used to refer to the Divine Liturgy by Orthodox Christians who may have been associated with communities who came from areas in central Europe that was affected by the Union of Brest-Litovsk. -Orthodoxwiki.org


Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2010, 05:37:29 PM »
The word "Mass" is sometimes incorrectly used to refer to the Divine Liturgy by Orthodox Christians who may have been associated with communities who came from areas in central Europe that was affected by the Union of Brest-Litovsk. -Orthodoxwiki.org


The Western Rite Orthodox Missal says "The Divine Liturgy, commonly called the Mass."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline genesisone

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2010, 05:40:35 PM »
In Nassar's Divine Prayers and Services, he definitely refers to "The Mass" where one would expect "Divine Liturgy".  I am well aware of translation issues but that could be one source (not the OP's I realize) of the use of the term in Orthodoxy.

Does he always call it the Mass or does he use the two terms interchangeably?
He does provide "The Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom and Basil the Great", but in the sections of the Menaion, Triodion, Pentecostarion the daily variables for the DL are under the heading "3. The Mass" which follows "1. Vespers", "2. Matins". Of course his use of "Matins" instead of "Orthros" seems to be another divergence from other texts.

Thanks. I'm curious about the contents of this volume. Does it include the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts?
Yes - page 661: "Order of the Liturgy of the Proegiasmena Gifts (Presanctified Gifts)"

It does seem to have a full range of services for Holy Week, etc., though I didn't examine it that carefully  :).

Back to Mass vs. DL: beginning at page 1104 (Appendix: The Divine Liturgy and the Object of its Institution), he refers to the Mass of the Apostle James; the mass of St. Basil; the Mass of St. John Chrysostom; et al. So it appears that he uses the terms interchangeably. iamisry's most recent post here explains that quite adequately for me.

I found this reference in OrthodoxWiki. The "Five-Pounder" is a handy general purpose reference, but not something you would want to use as your sole guide. I use it primarily for comparison purposes. Just to make clear why I get into this: I've ended up as "head chanter" in my small mission parish, mostly just because. I am not a tonsured reader or anything like that. I'm self-taught in these things with guidance from my priest, though he is relying on me more and more, even to help him figure things out. The only formal training I've had is the Byzantine Chant workshop at the Antiochian Village, which simply because of what it is, there is some discussion of Liturgics.

We lack a complete liturgical library, so we have to make do with whatever we can get our hands on. Sometimes, like this coming Sunday, it's a real scramble.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2010, 11:09:01 PM »
When I attended a Greek Orthodox Church in USA - Greek & English
in Germany - Greek & German
Antiochian  Orthodox Church in USA - English
ROCOR in USA - Church Slavonic & English
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Orthodox Mass
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2010, 02:46:20 AM »
The term "Mass" is derived from the Late Latin word missa (dismissal), a word used in the concluding formula of Mass in Latin: "Ite, missa est" ("Go; it is the dismissal").[1][2] "In antiquity, missa simply meant 'dismissal'. In Christian usage, however, it gradually took on a deeper meaning. The word 'dismissal' has come to imply a 'mission'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_mass
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