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Author Topic: Jesus and The Father: One or Two  (Read 964 times) Average Rating: 0
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john_morcos
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« on: November 14, 2010, 06:57:14 AM »

Jesus once said: "I am one with The Father"...

Yet in John 8:17 he says: " In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me"

I can't understand that he and the Father count two. He is inseparable from the Father.
How to understand this?
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 07:07:29 AM »

Jesus once said: "I am one with The Father"...

Yet in John 8:17 he says: " In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me"

I can't understand that he and the Father count two. He is inseparable from the Father.
How to understand this?

With Faith, not logic. Mystery. We bow before it; we dare not presume to understand it.


Selam
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2010, 08:24:46 AM »

The Son is a distinct person within the Godhead. He is ONE with the Father in the sense that He is divine (of the same nature and substance). However, this does not make Him one PERSON with the Father.
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 11:06:48 AM »

Jesus once said: "I am one with The Father"...

Yet in John 8:17 he says: " In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me"

I can't understand that he and the Father count two. He is inseparable from the Father.
How to understand this?
1x1x1=1

"In your own Law": He is speaking to Jews that saw Him as one person, and God as another. He is putting there objections on its head, pointing out that He testifies and His Father, Whom they call God, testifies as well. John 8:15 "You judge according to the flesh"
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2010, 05:25:38 PM »

They are one AND two.
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2010, 10:17:45 PM »

Math does not exist in heaven.
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 06:24:24 AM »

Perfect math might!
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2010, 07:31:38 AM »

Jesus once said: "I am one with The Father"...

Yet in John 8:17 he says: " In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me"

I can't understand that he and the Father count two. He is inseparable from the Father.
How to understand this?

With Faith, not logic. Mystery. We bow before it; we dare not presume to understand it.


Selam
Why is there such a mystery within the Orthodox church, is it because we cannot understand certain things?
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 09:51:45 AM »

Quote
Why is there such a mystery within the Orthodox church, is it because we cannot understand certain things?

We can’t understand anything about God except what God himself reveals to us.  God revealed himself as three persons,  and if we want to get close to our God, we should except this and move on.  

Since God existed before all created things, we can not use the logic of created things to understand what is God.  I am told that we can better understanding God by His revelations.  
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 09:55:56 AM by AWR » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 02:01:37 PM »

Quote
Why is there such a mystery within the Orthodox church, is it because we cannot understand certain things?
 

Since God existed before all created things, we can not use the logic of created things to understand what is God. 



I like that very much. I had never thought of it that way before.


Selam
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2010, 03:47:13 AM »

Jesus once said: "I am one with The Father"...

Yet in John 8:17 he says: " In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me"

I can't understand that he and the Father count two. He is inseparable from the Father.
How to understand this?
In Old Testament law, two persons were required  as witnesses to establish a fact. And Christ, as he did not want to be called a liar, invoked the witness of the persons of the Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2010, 04:13:00 AM »

Once you accept the implications of a fully Diophysite Christology, the question is easily resolved.
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2010, 04:17:10 AM »

I've seen this brought up in anti-religious/christian literature, and really I'm not sure that I buy any of the explanations. I suppose some would say that I don't buy the explanations because I'm trying to "wrap my head around it" rather than letting my heart discern the answer. *shrugs*  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2010, 04:18:56 AM »

This is not a question of christology, but of trinitarian theology. The trinity is one God, of one being, but there are three hypostases (persons).

The person of Christ is true man and true God, and he is one person. The other person mentioned is God the Father. It is certainly not acceptable, neither for Chalcedonian Orthodox, nor for Oriental Orthodox, to teach Christ as two persons.
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2010, 04:21:27 AM »

Who teaches here that Christ is two persons   Shocked
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2010, 05:02:19 AM »

Jesus once said: "I am one with The Father"...

Yet in John 8:17 he says: " In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me"

I can't understand that he and the Father count two. He is inseparable from the Father.
How to understand this?


Tertullian said: (after quoting a Psalm that said "Therefore, God, even your God, has anointed You." and a text in Genesis that said "Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven".)

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.xiii.html (Against Praxeas)
Quote:
Quote:
"Quote:
"That there are, however, two Gods or two Lords, is a statement that at no time proceeds out of our mouths. I will therefore not speak of Gods at all, nor of Lords, but I will follow the apostle. So that if the Father and the Son are both to be invoked, I will call the Father "God" and invoke Jesus Christ as "Lord." But when Christ alone [is spoken of], I will be able to call Him "God," as the same apostle says " Of whom is Christ, who is over all, God blessed forever. For I should give the name "Sun" even to a sunbeam, when considered by itself. But if I were to mention the sun from which the ray emanates, I certainly should at once withdraw the name of sun from the mere beam. For although I do not make two suns, still I will reckon both the sun and its ray to be as much two things and two forms of one undivided substance-just as God and His Word, the Father and the Son."



as well as:

Tertullian
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.iii.xxi.html (Tertullian: Apology)
Apology: Chapter XXI
We have already asserted that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos—that is, the Word and Reason—as the Creator of the universe. For Zeno lays it down that he is the creator, having made all things according to a determinate plan; that his name is Fate, and God, and the soul of Jupiter, and the necessity of all things. Cleanthes ascribes all this to spirit, which he maintains pervades the universe. And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has in being to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun—there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, 35is in His birth God and man united. The flesh formed by the Spirit is nourished, grows up to manhood, speaks, teaches, works, and is the Christ"


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"I have discussed briefly in what has gone before; when I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, as if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned and divided are not the same after as before they were divided: and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that from which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same."





Also when Tertullian digressed to talk about the Sun and it's beam.......this is the image/picture I think he had in mind:



Another good help is the Nicene Creed itself.

http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=10 (OCA website)
Quote:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.

And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."






I hope this helps!

« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 05:20:27 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2010, 08:58:26 PM »

Jesus once said: "I am one with The Father"...

Yet in John 8:17 he says: " In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me"

I can't understand that he and the Father count two. He is inseparable from the Father.
How to understand this?

With Faith, not logic. Mystery. We bow before it; we dare not presume to understand it.


Selam

I essentially agree with this sentiment, but feel the need to qualify it.

The Fathers of the Church had no problem spilling much ink in an attempt to make sensible and comprehensible difficult concepts associated with the reality of the Holy Trinity. Reason can never be the foundation of genuine faith in the Holy Trinity, but put to good and right use it is indeed capable of serving its original purpose—to glorify God and point to the ultimate Truth, the Logos. In this respect, it is (in the words of a Father whose name escapes me at this time) the handmaiden of faith.

Where the handmaiden is available and willing to serve, why would we resist and reject her service?

« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 08:58:53 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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