Topic: New Parish in Huntsville for Russian Church Abroad

[Irish Hermit]

Other Western Rite news:  Father Michael has received the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Mission in Huntsville under his oversight.  Is this the Huntsville in Canada?

"We welcome the arrival of the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Orthodox Mission in Huntsville, under the oversight of Saint Petroc Monastery."

For more information:
http://forwardinorthodoxfaith.blogspot.com/

[Ortho_cat]

I'm nearly certain it's Huntsville, AL. I don't see any WR parishes in Canada from this list (at the bottom):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Rite_Orthodoxy#North_America

[John of the North]

It is in Alabama.

[Fr.Aidan]

It is in Hanceville, Alabama. Fr. Kentigern McCaffrey was established as a ROCOR priest. Deo gratias.

Fr. Aidan+
Holy Protection Russian Orthodox Church, Austin, Texas
http://www.orthodoxaustin.org

[biro]

Many years! 

[Alpo]

Does Russian WRO spread faster than that of Antiochians or does Russians have more publicity?

[mike]

AL. I don't see any WR parishes in Canada from this list (at the bottom):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Rite_Orthodoxy#North_America

But they have a Monastery.

http://christminster.org/

BTW I like their new site.

[Agabus]

Does Russian WRO spread faster than that of Antiochians or does Russians have more publicity?

The Russians have received more lately (IIRC, there was a mass conversion of a vagante group early this year/late last year), and they have certainly publicized it. I'm not sure how much the actual rate of WRO growth differs between jurisdictions.

[SubdeaconDavid]

Other Western Rite news:  Father Michael has received the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Mission in Huntsville under his oversight.  Is this the Huntsville in Canada?

"We welcome the arrival of the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Orthodox Mission in Huntsville, under the oversight of Saint Petroc Monastery."

For more information:
http://forwardinorthodoxfaith.blogspot.com/

I could NOT find this quote on any of the SPM sites, although the parish is listed as Hanceville at:http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

Saint James of Jerusalem Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
P.O. Box 1147 H
Hanceville, AL 35077
Revd Fr Kentigern McCaffrey
Main: (256) 352-6446

What does "under the oversight" mean?  Is the parish part of SPM?

[mike]

Does Russian WRO spread faster than that of Antiochians or does Russians have more publicity?

The Russians have received more lately (IIRC, there was a mass conversion of a vagante group early this year/late last year), and they have certainly publicized it. I'm not sure how much the actual rate of WRO growth differs between jurisdictions.

Antiochian WRO is much bigger.

[Robb]

I know that Huntsville/Hancville, AL is where the Mother Angelica monastery/shrine is located.  Does this fact cause a lot of religious groups in the sacramental tradition to gravitate towards the area?

[Irish Hermit]

Other Western Rite news:  Father Michael has received the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Mission in Huntsville under his oversight.  Is this the Huntsville in Canada?

"We welcome the arrival of the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Orthodox Mission in Huntsville, under the oversight of Saint Petroc Monastery."

For more information:
http://forwardinorthodoxfaith.blogspot.com/

I could NOT find this quote on any of the SPM sites, although the parish is listed as Hanceville at:http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

Saint James of Jerusalem Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
P.O. Box 1147 H
Hanceville, AL 35077
Revd Fr Kentigern McCaffrey
Main: (256) 352-6446

What does "under the oversight" mean?  Is the parish part of SPM?

The OP is dated 10 November 2010.

It was 9 days later, 19 November 2010, that Metropolitan Hilarion issued his decree appointing Hieromonk Michael of Australia to work in the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand.

He appointed Abbot James of Canada to work in North America.  They became the Metropolitan's two assistants for the Western Rite.  At that point Dom James assumed supervision of all the American missions, etc.   

The WR work in the States is shared with Fr Anthony Bondi whom the Metropolitan has appointed as his Pastoral Vicar for Western Rite.

[FrMichael]

The Metropolitan has clarified the fact that Fr. Anthony is *not* over all the WR communities
in this hemisphere, but only those that belong to his own group.

Quote from a letter sent to me by Bishop Jerome.  He is in fact the "Pastoral Vicar for Western Rite within the Fraternity of St. Gregory"

[Irish Hermit]

The Metropolitan has clarified the fact that Fr. Anthony is *not* over all the WR communities
in this hemisphere, but only those that belong to his own group.

Quote from a letter sent to me by Bishop Jerome.  He is in fact the "Pastoral Vicar for Western Rite within the Fraternity of St. Gregory"

Thank you for this information, Fr Michael.   It seems that areas of work and oversight are becoming clearer now within ROCA's Western Rite..  This must be a relief to the Metropolitan who can be content that the WR Clergy will act with probity and within their assigned territory and not invite disciplinary measures for operating where they ought not.

Do we know how extensive the Fraternity of Saint Gregory is?  Does it include all the clergy in the States apart from the two monastic establishments of Abbot David and Hieromonk (name escapes me) in New Mexico?

[SubdeaconDavid]

The Metropolitan has clarified the fact that Fr. Anthony is *not* over all the WR communities
in this hemisphere, but only those that belong to his own group.

It would be useful to see the Ukaze text in relation to this, because I have read that the "Very-Reverend Anthony Bondi" is Pastoral Assistant for the Western-Rite of ROCOR in the US and Canada.

Quote from a letter sent to me by Bishop Jerome.  He is in fact the "Pastoral Vicar for Western Rite within the Fraternity of St. Gregory"

Thank you for this information, Fr Michael.   It seems that areas of work and oversight are becoming clearer now within ROCA's Western Rite..  This must be a relief to the Metropolitan who can be content that the WR Clergy will act with probity and within their assigned territory and not invite disciplinary measures for operating where they ought not.



Do we know how extensive the Fraternity of Saint Gregory is?  Does it include all the clergy in the States apart from the two monastic establishments of Abbot David and Hieromonk (name escapes me) in New Mexico?

By my reading the only non Fraternity of St. Gregory Church Abroad Western-rite consists of Abbott David Florida, and the SPM connected monastery to be built of Hieromonk Joshua (Anna) in New Mexico, the new parish of S. James of Jerusalem under Priest Kentigern McAffery in Huntsville, and the St Petroc Monastery affiliated missions or study societies of

Saint David Orthodox Study Society - Sacramento – California

Saint Tikhon Orthodox Study Society - Nashotah – Wisconsin

Saint Brendan Monastery Mission - Panama City – Florida

Saint Andrew Monastery Mission - Sarasota – Florida

See http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

[Fr.Aidan]

To clarify again, it's not in Huntsville, but in Hanceville. They are more than an hour apart.

Mother Angelica is indeed headquartered in Hanceville. Obviously we have an outreach in place, to facilitate the return of Mother Angelica and her co-labourers, to the Christian Faith. God grant that they may discover, make, and complete that journey.

[Robb]

To clarify again, it's not in Huntsville, but in Hanceville. They are more than an hour apart.

Mother Angelica is indeed headquartered in Hanceville. Obviously we have an outreach in place, to facilitate the return of Mother Angelica and her co-labourers, to the Christian Faith. God grant that they may discover, make, and complete that journey.

I was hoping that you and they could do some type of ecumenical outreach, but then I saw that you were ROCOR and my hopes got dashed

I hope that you will, at least visit the beautiful Hancville shrine and experience things for yourself.  I'm sure that they are welcoming to everybody who comes with a desire to pray and reflect.  Mother Angelica built it under divine inspiration (Even having a vision of the Christ Child who promised to honor her labors if she wold build this shrine to him).

[Fr.Aidan]

Ecumenical (cross-religious and cross-cultural) evangelisation is a special characteristic of the Russian Orthodox Church, especially the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. It has resulted in the founding of the entire Orthodox Church of Japan, the entire Orthodox Church of China, the entire Orthodox Christian mission to North America (up to 1917), the Western Rite outreach to America, Europe, Britain, and Down Under, missionary work in Haiti and South America and Africa, and now, Hanceville, Alabama. We pray that Mother Angelica and all schismatic persons will return to the bosom of the Catholic Church, the original apostolic Faith, which is preserved fully and lovingly only in the Eastern Orthodox Church. It was not their fault that Rome apostastised, and miracles are possible. And they are doubtless simply striving to love God the best they know how.

Matters of dogma are easy to parse, but I am not on a high horse. I have no doubt that Mother Angelica would easily enter the kingdom of heaven ahead of me with all my sins.

[cyisteve]

There was a mission in planning in Huntsville named SS. Peter and Paul, but never came to fruition.


Fr. Steve

[Robb]

There was a mission in planning in Huntsville named SS. Peter and Paul, but never came to fruition.


Fr. Steve

Are you a member rof THE Anglican Catholic Church?  I actually considered becoming an AC once years and years ago, but went back to the RCC instead.  I've always admired those of you in the continuing Anglican movement though.  You were on the frontlines of the Anglican communion fighting things out long before the johnny come lately's "realigned" themselves.

[cyisteve]

As a matter of fact, I am a member of the Anglican Catholic Church. We have continued the long, hard fight against the ever secularization of the Lambeth Communion (which were are not apart of). We uphold the ancient faith of the undivided Church, and now there seems to be some recent interest in us from the various jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church i.e. Vladyka Hilarion (ROCOR) has assigned a liason to the ACC. I also belong to the Society of Saint Tikhon. Our mission is to teach and instruct the people of the Province in the essentials of English Christianity, which held onto Orthodox faith and praxis from 37 A.D. until the Great Schism, and the Affirmation of St. Louis continues to uphold. We also are praying that our Orthodox brethren will one day see us as, "bone of thier bone, and flesh of thier flesh." The English Church was an innocent bystander when Rome split from the Pentarchy (well, until the English Reformation), and we would love to see the Eastern Church embrace us again, as one of their own.

[Iconodule]

I was never quite clear on how Anglican Catholics regarded the 39 Articles.

[Robb]

As a matter of fact, I am a member of the Anglican Catholic Church. We have continued the long, hard fight against the ever secularization of the Lambeth Communion (which were are not apart of). We uphold the ancient faith of the undivided Church, and now there seems to be some recent interest in us from the various jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church i.e. Vladyka Hilarion (ROCOR) has assigned a liason to the ACC. I also belong to the Society of Saint Tikhon. Our mission is to teach and instruct the people of the Province in the essentials of English Christianity, which held onto Orthodox faith and praxis from 37 A.D. until the Great Schism, and the Affirmation of St. Louis continues to uphold. We also are praying that our Orthodox brethren will one day see us as, "bone of thier bone, and flesh of thier flesh." The English Church was an innocent bystander when Rome split from the Pentarchy (well, until the English Reformation), and we would love to see the Eastern Church embrace us again, as one of their own.

If I could ask some questions?

1.  Why are you called the Anglican Catholic Church?  Is it because you are more Anglo-Catholic then other Anglican churches?

2.  Why are there so many continuing Anglican bodies?  Where these divisions do to some churches seeing Anglicanism as more Catholic then Protestant?

3.  What is your connection to the "Anglican Church in America"?  Why did they split from you?

4.  Do AC's see themselves as more "Catholic" then what the C of E became since the time of Henry VIII?  Do you use the 6 articles of religion instead of the 39?

Thanks.  I have always been interested in the struggles of continuing Anglicanism.  

[cyisteve]

1.  Why are you called the Anglican Catholic Church?  Is it because you are more Anglo-Catholic then other Anglican churches?

*The provisional name for the continuing Church originally (at the conference in St. Louis) was the Anglican Church in North America (Continuing), but by the time the Denver consecrations took place and the first four dioceses were established the incorporated name became the ACC. We did draw more from the spirituality of the Oxford Movement, which was more Anglo-Catholic than the rest of the Epsicopal Church. And of course we see one leader of the OM could no longer reconcile himself to fact that he was out of communion with the Pope, and made his way into the RCC. We know him know as the Blessed Card. John Henry Newman.

2.  Why are there so many continuing Anglican bodies?  Where these divisions do to some churches seeing Anglicanism as more Catholic then Protestant?

*Well, we see once a church splits.....it continues to fracture. Within a year or so, the Low-Church faction within the ACC felt that there was no room for them. They were more reformed in theology (39 Articles), and felt that the Ordinary's of the church abused their authority (meaning they wanted to be congregationalists) so yes.....some wanted to remain protestant in their belief (UECNA). Another split occured because some viewed the doctrines of the Theotokos as pious opinion, and not essential to Christian belief (HCC-AR). What it boils down to, is that there were more Agendas in the House of Bishops than what was expected in the beginning. The Affirmation of St. Louis was clear on what the essentials were for the continuing Church, and some would have caused a lot less trouble if they would have stayed PECUSA.

[cyisteve]

 3.  What is your connection to the "Anglican Church in America"?  Why did they split from you?

*The ACC and the Anglican Episcopal Church were in the process of a merger. These were the two largest continuing groups at the time. The AEC pre-dates the St. Louis gathering, and the orders of their clergy were questionable, which came from the vast vagante independent "Old Catholic" groups at the time.  At the last minute, a large majority of ACC House of Bishops declared that the orders of the AEC were not valid and ceased conducting business with them, while the minority continued on. The end product is the ACA.

4.  Do AC's see themselves as more "Catholic" then what the C of E became since the time of Henry VIII?  Do you use the 6 articles of religion instead of the 39?

http://www.anglicancatholic.org/main/who/stlouis.html

[cyisteve]

I was never quite clear on how Anglican Catholics regarded the 39 Articles.

Only as a historical document. The 39 articles never held "confessional" status among Anglicans outside of the CofE. There is much in conflict with the authentic revelation of faith confirmed by the Seven Ecumenical Councils. By the time 1536 rolled around, Cranmer hit his zenith of Calvinistic influence and planted seeds of reformed heresy into their mandated assent of belief in the CofE.

[CRCulver]

There was a mission in planning in Huntsville named SS. Peter and Paul, but never came to fruition.

There was a (IIRC) OCA parish there, but they only had reader services except once in a while when a priest would visit, and the priest stopped coming. There's now a Serbian parish there that is well-attended and has attracted cradles from a wide variety of backgrounds as well as plenty of converts. I visited last year and felt very enthusiastic. Huntsville's a good place to be Orthodox.

[Iconodule]

I was never quite clear on how Anglican Catholics regarded the 39 Articles.

Only as a historical document. The 39 articles never held "confessional" status among Anglicans outside of the CofE. There is much in conflict with the authentic revelation of faith confirmed by the Seven Ecumenical Councils. By the time 1536 rolled around, Cranmer hit his zenith of Calvinistic influence and planted seeds of reformed heresy into their mandated assent of belief in the CofE.

But what about the fact that all Anglican or at least CofE priests were require to vow allegiance to these articles to be ordained?

[Michał]

We uphold the ancient faith of the undivided Church . . .

Since when the Church is divided?

[Michał]

We uphold the ancient faith of the undivided Church . . .

Since when is the Church divided?

[Robb]

We uphold the ancient faith of the undivided Church . . .

Since when is the Church divided?

Since 1054 A.D.  One of our lungs ran off

[Sleeper]

I find "Undivided Church" to be a useful term. It doesn't at all imply that the Church can be or is divided, it means that there is an organism within history that is identifiable, and you are either part of it or not. The Undivided Church implies the entirety of all that was ever part of that organism, which includes the Church of the Western world for over 1,000 years, and was subsequently identified only with the Church in the East.

To me, it's better than merely "Apostolic" because the Roman Catholic church is technically that (and some might say the Anglicans as well). And only using Eastern Orthodox implies that only the culturally Eastern Church has any claim to being the Undivided Church, which excludes the first-millennium Western experience of the Church.

Perhaps it's just me, though. I just find it to be the best term to use in certain cases, when what I'm referring to is the total Body of Christ, in all times and locales.

[cyisteve]

But what about the fact that all Anglican or at least CofE priests were require to vow allegiance to these articles to be ordained?

Remember, outside of the CofE they never held confessional status. Within the Ordinal of the American BCP (1928), I vowed to uphold and preach the Doctrine of Christ. That can only be clearly defined by the fullness of revelation confirmed within the Seven Ecumenical Councils. To add to, or take away from, is the doctrine of man. We can only testify to what has been received and transmitted by the Church Fathers.

[Michał]

Since 1054 A.D.

Why not 431? Or 451?

[Iconodule]

But what about the fact that all Anglican or at least CofE priests were require to vow allegiance to these articles to be ordained?

Remember, outside of the CofE they never held confessional status.

Okay, but all the Anglican churches were in communion with and dependent on the Church of England, and were therefore in communion with its heresies. Moreover, the 1928 BCP includes the 39 articles "As established by the Bishops, the Clergy, and the Laity of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, in Convention, on the twelfth day of September, in the Year of our Lord, 1801."
What did the Fathers say about communion with heresy?

[cyisteve]

"As established by the Bishops, the Clergy, and the Laity of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America"

We are not the Protestant Episcopal Church, we broke communion with that body due to its heresies. The American BCP Divine Liturgy was approved for use by the Holy Synod in Moscow. It is used as a liturgical standard, not a doctrinal standard.

The Affirmation of St. Louis clearly states, "We repudiate all deviation of departure from the Faith, in whole or in part, and bear witness to these essential principles of evangelical Truth and apostolic Order:"

and

"The received Tradition of the Church and its teachings as set forth by "the ancient catholic bishops and doctors," and especially as defined by the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the undivided Church, to the exclusion of all errors, ancient and modern."

If read, the BCP (And services books conforming to and containing it i.e. Anglican Missal, American Missal, Divine Liturgy of Saint Tikhon) is only a standard for worship, and doctrine is defined by the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the undivided Church, to the exclusion of all errors, ancient and modern.

http://www.anglicancatholic.org/main/who/stlouis.html

[Fr.Aidan]

Christ is risen.

Just a factual correction: The Holy Synod of the Russian Church has never approved the American BCP Divine Liturgy for use. To correct this persistent myth, I'll break it down:

- In 1904 a standing committee of the Russian Church issued findings--results of their study of the American BCP.
- At that time, the Russian Church was based in St. Petersburg, not Moscow.
- The findings stated that the BCP rite was altogether unsuitable for Orthodox use, citing its doctrinally-vague content.
- The findings concluded with a statement that future approval is theoretically possible.
- It is an illogical leap, to imagine that the discouraged rite got approved, on the basis that a committee without approval power issued a statement that it was theoretically approvable.
- The first approval for a BCP rite in the Russian Orthodox Church occurred in 1997 within ROCOR's diocese of Australia and New Zealand.

One website went so far as to announce that a WR priest had held a centenary Mass in 2007, in memory of the nonexistent approval. But I believe that the expanding cause of Western Rite within Holy Orthodoxy is best served, when people stick to things that are factually true.

In what I have written above, I have tried to avoid any value judgments. It is not meant to offend, but to disambiguate.

[Iconodule]

"As established by the Bishops, the Clergy, and the Laity of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America"

We are not the Protestant Episcopal Church, we broke communion with that body due to its heresies.

Okay, but there was never a time when PECUSA didn't espouse those heresies, so you must admit that your group was born out of a heretical communion.

[cyisteve]

In what I have written above, I have tried to avoid any value judgments. It is not meant to offend, but to disambiguate.

You have not offended in any fashion, Father!

 As a matter of fact, I am a huge fan of your WR project, and feel it is an injustice, to the WR, that you serve in a Byzantine Rite parish. Your work and translations have benefited the entirety of Christendom. Thank you!

[cyisteve]

Okay, but there was never a time when PECUSA didn't espouse those heresies, so you must admit that your group was born out of a heretical communion.

And I guess one can never rise above the muck of its past, due to mud constantly being hurled in their direction. What do you want me to say....you are right. I have struggled tremendously about not being in full union with the Orthodox Church. Just pray for the Society of Saint Tikhon, as we continue our struggle to educate and lead the ACC into union with Orthodoxy.

[Shlomlokh]

Okay, but there was never a time when PECUSA didn't espouse those heresies, so you must admit that your group was born out of a heretical communion.

And I guess one can never rise above the muck of its past, due to mud constantly being hurled in their direction. What do you want me to say....you are right. I have struggled tremendously about not being in full union with the Orthodox Church. Just pray for the Society of Saint Tikhon, as we continue our struggle to educate and lead the ACC into union with Orthodoxy.

You have my prayers. There is a local AC parish here in Roanoke, but I don't know where they are theologically and spiritually (or if they even know Orthodoxy is an option). Do you know of Fr. Alban Waggener? He was an AC bishop of some Continuing Anglican jurisdiction, but converting to Orthodoxy with some of his flock. He is the priest of a mission in Lynchburg. Perhaps, you and your parish could start a dialogue with him? 

In Christ,
Andrew

[cyisteve]

You have my prayers. There is a local AC parish here in Roanoke, but I don't know where they are theologically and spiritually (or if they even know Orthodoxy is an option). Do you know of Fr. Alban Waggener? He was an AC bishop of some Continuing Anglican jurisdiction, but converting to Orthodoxy with some of his flock. He is the priest of a mission in Lynchburg. Perhaps, you and your parish could start a dialogue with him? 
[/quote]

Thank you for your prayers, Shlomlokh! Yes, St. Thomas of Canterbury is in Roanoke. I do know of Fr. Alban. He was a bishop in the APCK. I will have to make contact with him.

[Altar Server]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Fr. Steve,

Do you know anything of the Holy Catholic Church Anglican Rite?  There is a parish here in town and I've always wondered about it.

In Christ,
David

[Robb]

From what I've heard, the HCC-Anglican Rite is breakaway from the Anglican Catholic Church.  They split apart because one wanted to be more Catholic then Anglican.  I was actually interested in joining them for a very brief period of time, but all their schism and disunion was a real confusion and turn off for me.  If I want to be Orthodox Catholic, I'll just join one of those two Churches and not some johnny come lately group that wants to "recreate" It's O-Cness.