Author Topic: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?  (Read 3326 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,375
divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« on: November 11, 2010, 06:59:17 PM »
I met this wonderful woman.  she wears an Orthodox cross, prays before icons, etc.  she goes to a Protestant Church, because she says she can't be baptized in the Orthodox Church, because she was divorced and remarried.

is this true?  there is a man in catechism class at Church that just got remarried, and he plans to join the Church.

Offline Anastasios

  • Webdespota
  • Administrator
  • Merarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,497
  • Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina
    • AnastasiosHudson.com
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 07:00:09 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.
Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,375
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2010, 08:57:37 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.
really?! she'll be so happy to hear that!

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,359
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2010, 09:16:42 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Anastasios

  • Webdespota
  • Administrator
  • Merarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,497
  • Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina
    • AnastasiosHudson.com
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2010, 09:28:27 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Yes.

The Church allows remarriage even for Orthodox who are divorced (under certain circumstances), so it stands to reason that someone not even Orthodox could be chrismated after being divorced and remarried.  Some authorities (mainly Greek) would even count the current marriage as the first one, since the heretical baptism is only "activated" at the time of chrismation, and marriages outside the Church are not the same as marriages in the Church (since they are not sacramentally blessed; evidence of this would be the Apostolic canon which says a person married twice before baptism can be ordained a priest, while the one married twice after baptism cannot).
Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline quietmorning

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,434
  • St. Photini please pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2010, 11:21:23 PM »
Trevor, I've been married before.  I was baptised in the RC, so I do not need to be baptised again.  I am being chrismated this coming Sunday.  My priest told me straight up that my current marriage is my First marriage and my only marriage from the day I enter into the church.  :)
In His Mercy,
BethAnna

Online Gamliel

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,201
  • ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστον βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2010, 11:28:10 PM »
Aren't you too young to consider marriage?  :o ;)

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,375
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 12:25:25 AM »
Aren't you too young to consider marriage?  :o ;)
lol, quite!  this is for a woman I met yesterday at Bible study.  she was sad that she couldn't be baptized, because of this reason.  I am excited to ask father about it, and, if it is the case she can be baptized, I' going to encourage him to tell her!  she'll be overjoyed!

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 12:19:48 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Online podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,511
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 03:00:59 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

Even with a Trinitarian formula? Is that of the entire OCA or just the rule of your Bishop perhaps?  (yet another example of the types of issues that will need to be resolved under our future uniform structure....certainly there are historical and regional differences, slight as they may be, between and among the various 'Old World'  mother churches. Education and time will be needed for the acceptance of changes which are perhaps not doctrinal, but arise out of 'location' for lack of a better word.)

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,547
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 03:08:19 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

My friend and fellow catechumen who was raised in the Presbyterian Church USA was not re-baptized when we were chrismated last year (2 more days until our anniversary!). 
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 03:17:03 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

My friend and fellow catechumen who was raised in the Presbyterian Church USA was not re-baptized when we were chrismated last year (2 more days until our anniversary!). 

Really? I was under the impression that Metropolitan Jonah had decided that all Protestant converts will be baptized. That's what I've heard from every source in the OCA that I'm aware of.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,375
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 03:44:48 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
really?!  I was a Presbyterian and I was only christmated.

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2010, 03:59:55 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
really?!  I was a Presbyterian and I was only christmated.

I'm not faithful yet, but I was Presbyterian (PCA) and will be baptized.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Online podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,511
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2010, 04:23:26 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
really?!  I was a Presbyterian and I was only christmated.

I'm not faithful yet, but I was Presbyterian (PCA) and will be baptized.

Just out of curiosity, what diocese of OCA are you in, if you want to say. If you don't we certainly would understand.

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2010, 04:51:03 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
really?!  I was a Presbyterian and I was only christmated.

I'm not faithful yet, but I was Presbyterian (PCA) and will be baptized.

Just out of curiosity, what diocese of OCA are you in, if you want to say. If you don't we certainly would understand.

I don't mind at all. I'm in the Diocese of the South.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline lizzyd

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2010, 09:34:12 PM »
Quote
Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

Not in my OCA parish either. From my limited experience it seems to depend on the priest.

Also Diocese of the South here.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2010, 11:45:50 PM »
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2010, 11:56:59 PM »
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.

Yes, Met. Jonah is also our Locum Tenens. We haven't even elected a new bishop yet. Congratulations to your diocese and Fr. Mathias. I was excited to hear of his election. :-)

I was under the impression that this was a directive from His Beatitude, but I could have misunderstood. We have an active catechumenate, and all of our Protestant converts have been baptized (in the year I've been attending...and there have been quite a few) I will ask my priest for clarification this weekend.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2010, 12:39:44 AM »
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.

Yes, Met. Jonah is also our Locum Tenens. We haven't even elected a new bishop yet. Congratulations to your diocese and Fr. Mathias. I was excited to hear of his election. :-)

I was under the impression that this was a directive from His Beatitude, but I could have misunderstood. We have an active catechumenate, and all of our Protestant converts have been baptized (in the year I've been attending...and there have been quite a few) I will ask my priest for clarification this weekend.

We were still under the oversight of Archbishop Job when I was made a catechumen. I don't kow if that made a difference or not.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Orthophoria

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2010, 04:30:18 PM »
I also am in the Diocese of the South, and our parish priest has let me know that I will be baptized when I am received into the Church this coming January.  Although the last Christian community I was a member of was the Episcopal Church, I was baptized in a Pentecostal (Church of God) denomination.  As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.

Offline pensateomnia

  • Bibliophylax
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,360
  • metron ariston
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2010, 05:11:34 PM »
As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.

If true, a radical departure from the long-standing tradition of the Metropolia and OCA, and its Russian predecessor. It seems unlikely the Metropolitan would opt for such a change without at least issuing a public pastoral letter, perhaps even in consultation with the entire Synod. Then again, it's easier to read Fr. Metallinos than a 17th to 20th century Book of Needs in Church Slavonic.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline lizzyd

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2010, 09:18:29 PM »
  As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.

Has this changed in the past year? It was just this past July that my husband and I were received into the Church through chrismation.

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 39,511
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2010, 12:05:47 AM »
As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.

If true, a radical departure from the long-standing tradition of the Metropolia and OCA, and its Russian predecessor. It seems unlikely the Metropolitan would opt for such a change without at least issuing a public pastoral letter, perhaps even in consultation with the entire Synod. Then again, it's easier to read Fr. Metallinos than a 17th to 20th century Book of Needs in Church Slavonic.
I remember talking about this matter with Abp. Job of blessed memory, who said he saw the day coming when this would be necessary, with all the goofy things going on in Protestantism (the specific examples he cited were sprinklings in the name of the "Creator, Savior, and Sanctifier," and "baptisms" with rose petals instead of water at a Methodist church he observed).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,101
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2010, 02:23:02 AM »
If this is true then I would see it as a positive development, also because it might do away with the false notion that we "recognize" the "validity" of non-Orthodox baptisms. Most see it as a stamp of approval on Protestantism in an offhand way.

Offline Orthophoria

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2010, 07:39:49 AM »
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.

Hmmm...now I am really getting confused.   ???  I will ask Father about this the next chance I get.  As a "newbie" to Orthodoxy, it is quite possible that I am not fully understanding.  I think Father stated at one point that Met. +JONAH prefers that catechumens from (at least some) Protestant backgrounds be received by baptism; some of the more "traditional" denominations, such as Anglicanism or Lutheranism, could be received by chrismation, but some of the more "sectarian" denominations that have sprung up in the past century or two, would need to be received by baptism.

Hopefully, if a Great and Holy Council is convoked in 2013, as I have heard rumor of, then we can get this issue decided once and for all!   :)

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2010, 11:28:56 PM »
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.

Hmmm...now I am really getting confused.   ???  I will ask Father about this the next chance I get.  As a "newbie" to Orthodoxy, it is quite possible that I am not fully understanding.  I think Father stated at one point that Met. +JONAH prefers that catechumens from (at least some) Protestant backgrounds be received by baptism; some of the more "traditional" denominations, such as Anglicanism or Lutheranism, could be received by chrismation, but some of the more "sectarian" denominations that have sprung up in the past century or two, would need to be received by baptism.

Hopefully, if a Great and Holy Council is convoked in 2013, as I have heard rumor of, then we can get this issue decided once and for all!   :)

I think it's because it was done using full immersion and the Trinitarian formula, and the church's Trinitarian beliefs.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline katherine 2001

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 894
  • Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2010, 11:44:52 PM »
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

I'm sorry, but it is not the policy of the OCA to be baptized if they are a convert from Protestantism if they were baptized in the name of the Trinity and it was by immersion.

Offline katherine 2001

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 894
  • Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.
Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2010, 11:48:00 PM »
As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.

If true, a radical departure from the long-standing tradition of the Metropolia and OCA, and its Russian predecessor. It seems unlikely the Metropolitan would opt for such a change without at least issuing a public pastoral letter, perhaps even in consultation with the entire Synod. Then again, it's easier to read Fr. Metallinos than a 17th to 20th century Book of Needs in Church Slavonic.

Also, wouldn't that have to be agreed to by the Holy Synod as well?