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Poll
Question: Should this be protected under the 1st amendment?
Hell no! It's advice on how to rape children! - 20 (69%)
Hell Yes!  We can advocate and say whatever we wanna! - 6 (20.7%)
I don't like it, but I'm not sure. - 3 (10.3%)
Total Voters: 29

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Author Topic: Amazon and the Pedophile Advice book  (Read 1109 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« on: November 11, 2010, 02:02:34 AM »


Amazon criticized for selling advice book for pedophiles

Online retail giant Amazon.com came under a storm of electronic protest Wednesday for selling a self-published electronic book called "The Pedophile's Guide to Love and Pleasure."

The title -- published Oct. 28 by Phillip R. Greaves -- has been flooded with angry criticism mostly aimed at the Seattle-based retailer for offering it for sale.  The controversy raises the question of whether Amazon has any set procedures for vetting books to be sold in its online stores.

Amazon allows writers to publish their own works in its online stores and share in the revenue. The guidebook, described by its author as an "attempt to make pedophile situations safer for those juveniles ... by establishing certain rules for these adults to follow," is available for the Amazon Kindle reader.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/11/amazon-pedophile-book.html

This is absolutely disgusting, deplorable and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the American culture has lost it's soul. This should not be protected speech!!!  Babies and children are not things to provide erotic pleasure for adults!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 02:40:10 AM »

I'm assuming that the vote for "Hell Yes!" was a joke (or GiC  police )...?
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2010, 02:43:28 AM »

I'm assuming that the vote for "Hell Yes!" was a joke (or GiC  police )...?

I hope the former (and not the latter!)
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2010, 05:18:46 AM »

No, it was me and it was not meant as a joke. Free speech is free speech. Talking about something is not the same as doing it.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 05:24:45 AM by Tallitot » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2010, 08:19:17 AM »

I think "free speech" and "human rights" are quaint superstitions, so I vote no.
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2010, 02:20:56 PM »

Obscenity is not free speech. There are still obscenity laws on the books, but the state is afraid of enforcing them because lots of immoral people have lots of money for lawyers. Pornography is obscenity, but it is not regulated as it used to be so that today we have more "free speech" and more pervasive sex crimes. You might counter that today such egregious acts are reported more often, but look at what is out there--a whole industry supporting it, globally. More children are abused, more are messed up, more grow up to be abusers in the terrible cycle of evil begetting evil. Purity, virginity, and decency are laughed at. And sex of all kinds sells, especially over the Internet.
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2010, 02:22:42 PM »

...today we have more "free speech" and more pervasive sex crimes. ... More children are abused, more are messed up, more grow up to be abusers in the terrible cycle of evil begetting evil.

Do you have a citation for this?
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2010, 03:06:44 PM »

...today we have more "free speech" and more pervasive sex crimes. ... More children are abused, more are messed up, more grow up to be abusers in the terrible cycle of evil begetting evil.

Do you have a citation for this?

I am not sure that we have 'more' of such things today. I do know that we are more aware of systemic child abuse and sex crimes because they are not longer covered up or protected by family or other organizations, including religious ones. Children are taught today not to be embarrassed or ashamed if they are victimized.
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2010, 03:28:53 PM »

I don't think it's a free speech issue.  I think Amazon is able to decide for itself what it chooses to sell and what it doesn't.  It's a free market issue.
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2010, 03:30:45 PM »

LOL @ the hub-bub over this "Amazon Scandal" in a world where religious leaders convene private meetings to figure out to deal with their world-wide criminal conspiracy to cover child-sexual abuse.

For many Americans, this is definitely a mote-beam issue.

For all Americans (at least those in the US), this is a Constitutional issue with a pretty clear answer.

 
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2010, 03:31:27 PM »

I don't think it's a free speech issue.  I think Amazon is able to decide for itself what it chooses to sell and what it doesn't.  It's a free market issue.

Not when the government comes a calling.
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2010, 03:37:05 PM »

children are not things to provide erotic pleasure for adults!!!!!!!!!

Most of Madison Ave. and Hollywood would disagree heavily with you along with everyone purchasing their wares, which amounts to nearly every American.

The sexualization of children is an old story and one the sells well in the US at least. In Western Europe as well, from my time spent living there. Also, there seems to be prolific sex trade in Eastern Europe and in the Far East and child-brides in Africa . . .

Wait, maybe the *practice* of not using children means for sexual pleasure is quite controversial and rarely practiced.

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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2010, 04:34:09 PM »

I think "free speech" and "human rights" are quaint superstitions, so I vote no.

Marry me.

Oh, wait, we don't do that...  Tongue

children are not things to provide erotic pleasure for adults!!!!!!!!!

Most of Madison Ave. and Hollywood would disagree heavily with you along with everyone purchasing their wares, which amounts to nearly every American.

I just made a comment to my mother-in-law the other day about this as she was buying a tasty little skirt for my six-year-old niece. We're seriously making Islam look great. A shame on all of us Christians in our failures.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 04:37:58 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2010, 07:16:13 PM »

RE: the free speech argument; it seems that there's a difference in saying "I think sex between adults and children should be legal." and "I think sex between adults and children should be legal and here's how I enjoy it."  The first sentence is simply an opinion.  It's reprehensible, but it's still just an opinion.  The second sentence goes beyond mere opinion because it explains not only the 'what' but the 'how' and the 'how' is illegal.  I think a case could be made that if you're explaining how to do something, you've probably done it.  In this case, again, that's illegal.  So that argument is, well, .... dumb.

RE: the free market argument; it seems that if this book is found in the possession of a known pedophile (and who else would own it?), the victims' parents can legally go after all parties involved.  That means Amazon.  Secondly, since Amazon, like any business, exists to make money, it doesn't seem very intelligent to anger the majority of your customers.  But maybe that's the new soulless business model.  



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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2010, 07:42:44 PM »

Quote
it seems that if this book is found in the possession of a known pedophile (and who else would own it?)
A bibliophile, perhaps ? Wink
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2010, 08:37:58 PM »

I think "free speech" and "human rights" are quaint superstitions, so I vote no.

Marry me.

Oh, wait, we don't do that...  Tongue

You mean polygamy?

children are not things to provide erotic pleasure for adults!!!!!!!!!

Most of Madison Ave. and Hollywood would disagree heavily with you along with everyone purchasing their wares, which amounts to nearly every American.

I just made a comment to my mother-in-law the other day about this as she was buying a tasty little skirt for my six-year-old niece. We're seriously making Islam look great. A shame on all of us Christians in our failures.
Indeed. See what defining down deviency gets you.
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2010, 08:46:49 PM »

The issue isn't as much free speech to me. The book is a how-to guide for harming children. I would take the same issue with a guide on how to legally commit the perfect murder or how to commit mass murder via the water system. This book is more emotionally difficult to take because it is a how to book on harming children.
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2010, 09:23:08 PM »

Books on how to kill yourself, others, create illegal weapons, create illegal drugs, defraud the government, etc. have been protected under free speech rules.

The interesting thing, if this were a "novelization" of pedophiliac relationship, then you might have merit with the obscenity argument, even then, it is not certain. Think _Lolita_.

Gabriel, are you a citizen of the US? Doesn't sound like it, as these are rather clear cut legal issues, no matter how much special interests would have it otherwise.

And your arguments would not hold any water in a US Court thankfully.






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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2010, 09:25:31 PM »

The issue isn't as much free speech to me. The book is a how-to guide for harming children. I would take the same issue with a guide on how to legally commit the perfect murder or how to commit mass murder via the water system. This book is more emotionally difficult to take because it is a how to book on harming children.

You are free to write such books in the USA. It might bring you unwanted attention, but eventually your Constitutionally given right ("rights" are just rules we make up), if you have the appropriate resources will be upheld.
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2010, 12:33:54 AM »

I'm assuming that the vote for "Hell Yes!" was a joke (or GiC  police )...?

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.'

I think that's pretty much the end of the debate. Wink

But seriously, if you read the interview with the person who wrote this book, it looks like someone who was sexually abused as a child. Now you might not agree with his coping mechanism in writing books like this, in obsessing over this subject, etc. But the bottom line is that the people who are attacking this book are not attacking predators, they're attacking a victim.

There's no doubt that child rape is wrong and reprehensible, but attack the act itself and be consistent. Condemn cultures and societies that marry off 12 year girls, condemn societies with arranged marriages, there is no excuse or argument that makes these things justifiable; and just because they speak different languages doesn't make it any more acceptable than a 12 year old boy in the US being raped by a 40 year old man.

Speech, even speech in favour of an act, is not tantamount to the act itself. And this book is certainly not the equivalent of child rape. I can't say I've read it, but from what I've read about it, it seems like a victim trying to come to terms with a traumatic childhood experience...and the police (both 'moral police' and actual police) trying to find any excuse possible to punish him for doing so.
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2010, 11:45:01 AM »

I'm assuming that the vote for "Hell Yes!" was a joke (or GiC  police )...?

Or someone who believes in the 1st Amendment.  I think that someone should be able to publish whatever they want.  I also believe that pedophiles should be executed.  If we took the latter to heart, the former would not matter.
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2010, 04:49:56 PM »

The issue isn't as much free speech to me. The book is a how-to guide for harming children. I would take the same issue with a guide on how to legally commit the perfect murder or how to commit mass murder via the water system. This book is more emotionally difficult to take because it is a how to book on harming children.

bingo.
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2010, 05:02:24 PM »

There has to be a line somewhere regarding free speech. Otherwise anyone can do anything regarding free speech. My limit is when it involves harming children. A how to guide on how to rape an adult woman would be toeing the line, but a how to guide for raping/molesting children is too far. There are plenty of pedophile exclusive websites that sell that sort of book. Pedophiles can go there to buy books. Children browse amazon, and there is no way to limit the results of a search on amazon. Before this hullabaloo I stopped using amazon for digital download of movies/videos. The porn comes up with even the most innocent search words. This is the same reason why you can't by sex toys at you local grocery store- it is not appropriate. But I also take issue with pornographic magazines being sold in grocery stores too. But with the advent of "mens magazines" you don't even have to get something that is "porn" to be able to get essentially soft pornography.
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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2010, 07:12:56 PM »

This is somewhat ironic

Quote
But the controversy seems to have backfired to some degree. When Mr. Siegler wrote about the book on Wednesday it was ranked 155,221 out of all the books for sale on Amazon. Before it was banned on Thursday, the book was in the top 100 books sold—and quickly moving up the charts. Amazon did not respond to a request for comment via e-mail.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/amazon-under-attack-for-sale-of-pedophile-book/?ref=technology
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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2010, 06:36:48 PM »

This is somewhat ironic

Quote
But the controversy seems to have backfired to some degree. When Mr. Siegler wrote about the book on Wednesday it was ranked 155,221 out of all the books for sale on Amazon. Before it was banned on Thursday, the book was in the top 100 books sold—and quickly moving up the charts. Amazon did not respond to a request for comment via e-mail.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/amazon-under-attack-for-sale-of-pedophile-book/?ref=technology

It's not surprising. The act of being censored is enough to give a work value and meaning. I'm sure this book is poorly written, lacks any redeeming literary value, and would be very unlikely to ever even be published in a traditional setting. But, at the same time, it evoked a strong emotional response (mostly anger and fear) in many people, several of which I would venture would be too frightened to even read a paragraph or two. And, furthermore, it struck fear in the hearts of those powerful and influential enough to be in a position to influence (if not dictate) what people should be allowed to read and should not be allowed to read...that is to say, what people should be allowed to think and should not be allowed to think.

Regardless of what this book was a month ago, it now has real social, political, and intellectual value. And it may not even be the best example from its genre, but was the book that was attacked by the censors, so it is the book that has value.

You would think that by now people would have learned that attempts at censorship in a free society are inherently counter-productive. But they are too susceptible to the irrational whims of their emotions which are only magnified by their utter ignorance of history. All that has been accomplished is that the author of a book that should have spent its existence on complete obscurity has been given a pulpit to proclaimed his clearly perverse and unhealthy ideas and, even worse, because they were censored those perverse and unhealthy ideas now have a degree of credibility that they could not have otherwise obtained.
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