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Author Topic: German Roman Catholic Scandal In Kosovo  (Read 4757 times) Average Rating: 0
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Orthodoc
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Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« on: March 29, 2004, 09:51:00 AM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Germans prohibit Archangels monks from return - German Roman Catholic
priest in Prizren gives Roman Catholic Communion  to Orthodox Serb
refugees from Prizren while Orthodox priests are  refused entry - Church shocked by this example of proselytism
in the moment of tragedy and pain
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Serbian Orthodox Diocese is shocked by absence of any attempt on the
part of the German army to protect a single Orthodox Christian site in
Prizren. While their colleagues in other contingents were risking
their own lives Germans in Prizren let the mob burn the churches,
destroy frescoes and loot the Church valuables. Regrettably, two
Germans: KFOR Commander Holger Kammerhof and the chief of UNMIK police
Stephan Feller (nicknamed Mr. Fehler) are among the most responsible
international officials for such terrible outcome of the last week's
pogrom and the Church will insist on their resignation and leaving of
the German contingent from Kosovo completely.

  Mrs. Grigorijevic informed Fr. Sava that today at about 15:30 a
Roman Catholic priest arrived in the building where the Serbs are
lodged without any invitation by them and told them he would SERVE
MASS. Some Serbs asked why they did not allow their priests to come
and serve them an Orthodox Christian service, but the Germans insisted
that the R. Catholic mass should be served. The Serbs were asked to
hold candles in their hands and at the end of the service the Catholic
priest gave several of the elderly Serbs who are serious psychological
condition Roman Catholic communion (wafers). Some of the Serbs refused
to take this communion, horrified that they were being forcibly
converted to a different faith, even though Orthodox monks and
priest-monks from Holy Archangels are only five kilometers away from
them but are being denied the right to visit their faithful people
even though they have asked to do so. Weeping, Mrs. Grigorijevic
reported this sad news with the request that Bishop Artemije and the
Patriarchate in Belgrade be informed.

=======

WWII all over again?
Orthodoc
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2004, 10:15:58 AM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Germans prohibit Archangels monks from return - German Roman Catholic
priest in Prizren gives Roman Catholic Communion  to Orthodox Serb
refugees from Prizren while Orthodox priests are  refused entry - Church shocked by this example of proselytism
in the moment of tragedy and pain
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

=======

WWII all over again?
Orthodoc

Does seem that way, doesn't it? How a "dictator" could keep the Southern Slavs in one nation and in relative peace for decades only to see the whole country come apart as soon as the global nation architects got involved is amazing.
These Germans remind one of the attitude of Charles "the Great" and the later Frankish-Germanic crusaders for which the world is still paying.

WWIII has probably already begun but we must wait for a congressional committee here to figure that out.

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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2004, 01:58:51 AM »

What on earth did that Catholic priest think he was doing? Will he be disciplined for his actions or will the Catholic church reward him.

You know, I had posted this news item on a Catholic forum a few days ago and though I was pleased to see that no one tried to defend the priest, the silence was otherwise deafening Sad.

John.
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2004, 02:41:26 AM »

What on earth did that Catholic priest think he was doing? Will he be disciplined for his actions or will the Catholic church reward him.

You know, I had posted this news item on a Catholic forum a few days ago and though I was pleased to see that no one tried to defend the priest, the silence was otherwise deafening Sad.

John.
John,
In 1998, Pope John Paul II, traveled to Croatia and beatified Cardinal Stepinac, one of the sources of the brutal WWII Catholic Croatian/German pogroms against the Serbian Orthodox. He highlighted the cardinal's wartime record at preserving Croatian heritage and Catholicism; the Orthodox were aghast. The cardinal's actions help set up the sad wars in the 1990s. Either the Vatican did not read the history, or did read it and did not care.
This current event is again in the Balkans. I think this priest will just get a wink and a "don't do that again, too often".
And they wonder that we'll not trust them.
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2004, 08:41:31 AM »

Looks as though the Vatican has two faces.
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2004, 09:34:50 AM »

 Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac,
"A Servant of God and the Croatian People"
Written by Michael Savor (Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA)
1997, revised in 2001
 
Aloysius Stepinac came from a peasant family, born in Brezani near Krasic on May 8, 1898. He was the eighth out of twelve children, and his mother always prayed that he might one day become a priest. In 1916, Stepinac was conscripted into the Austro-Hungarian army and fought on the Italian front until he was taken prisoner. In 1919 he returned to civilian life and entered the University of Zagreb to study agriculture. Stepinac decided to become a priest in 1924 and was sent to Rome to prepare, and was ordained six years later on October 26, 1930.

He returned to Zagreb in July, 1931 with the degrees of Doctor of Theology and Philosophy. Soon afterwards, Stepinac was chosen to become secretary to Archbishop Antun Bauer. On June 24, 1934 he was nominated as coadjutor to the Archbishop of Zagreb. After this nomination, Stepinac stated: "I love my Croatian people and for their benefit I am ready to give everything, as well as I am ready to give everything for the Catholic Church." After Bauer's death on December 7, 1937 Stepinac became the Archbishop of Zagreb.

During the Second World War, Stepinac never turned his back on refugees, or the prosecuted. His door was always open not only for Croatians, but also Jews, Serbs and Slovenes that needed his help. Stepinac always stood for political freedom and fundamental rights, and he always advocated the rights of the Croatian people. Stepinac wanted Croatia to be a country of God.

In May of 1943, he openly criticised the Nazis, and as a result, the Germans and Italians demanded that he be removed from office. Pope Pious XII refused, and warned Stepinac that his life was in danger. In July of 1943, the BBC and the Voice of America began to broadcast Stepinac's sermons to occupied Europe, and the BBC commented on Stepinac's criticism of the Ustasha regime.

At the end of the war, Stepinac was found guilty of Nazi collaboration at a mock trial, and was convicted and sentenced sixteen years' hard labour on October 11, 1946. At his trial when his life was on the line, Stepinac asked his communist prosecutors: "...every nation has the right to independence, then why should it be denied to the Croatians?" He spent five years in the prison of Lepoglava, and in 1951, Tito's government released him and confined him to the village of Krasic.

Even though he was forbidden by the government to resume his duties, Stepinac was named Cardinal by Pope Pius XII on January 12, 1953. Due to pain caused by the many illnesses he contracted while imprisoned, Cardinal Stepinac died in Krasic on February 10, 1960. On February 13th, he was buried behind the main altar in the cathedral in Zagreb. Pope Pious XII stated that "this Croatian Cardinal is the most important priest of the Catholic Church".

In 1985, his trial prosecutor Jakov Blazevic admited publically that Cardinal Stepinac's trial was entirely framed, and that Stepinac was tried only because he refused to sever thousand year old ties between Croatians and the Roman Catholic Church. Cardinal Spelman commented on Stepinac by stating that : "the only thing Cardinal Stepinac is guilty of was his love for God and his homeland". On October 3, 1998 in Marija Bistrica, Pope John Paul II beatified Cardinal Stepinac, and referred to him as one of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church. Even though Serbs seriously opposed the beatification of Cardinal Stepinac, Ljubomir Rankovic, Deacon of the Serbian Orthodox Church supported the beatification : "...I, as a person and a priest, wish to express my admiration for this move." There were also prominent members of the Jewish community who testified to the generosity of aid Stepinac provided during the war.

Without a doubt, Blessed Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac is one of the greatest Croatian patriots of the 20th century. He spent his entire life serving God and the Croatian people, demonstrating the importance of faith, charity and virtue.

 
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2004, 09:50:16 AM »

The priest above has sinned and violated the rights of the Serbs.  I think it is unfair to blame ROme for the actions of one priest.  

Regarding Blessed Aloysius there are two sides to every story.  I post the artcile above as to what we Catholics believe.  I do remember his beatification and Jews and Serbs were present.  If the allegations against him were true the vatican would not have beatified him.  The halted beatification of Pope Pius XII because of Jewish complaints, and this because they claimed he didn't do enough not becasue he directly participated in the Holocaust.  The crimes commited by the Usatshi are horrible and it is a sad that Croats and so called Catholics participated.  However, I always see the Croats being reminded of their crimes but the Serbs are never called on the carpet for their own concentration camp in Belgrade for Croats, Bosnians, and others.

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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2004, 10:05:39 AM »


Regarding Blessed Aloysius there are two sides to every story.  I post the artcile above as to what we Catholics believe.  I do remember his beatification and Jews and Serbs were present.  If the allegations against him were true the vatican would not have beatified him.  The halted beatification of Pope Pius XII because of Jewish complaints, and this because they claimed he didn't do enough not becasue he directly participated in the Holocaust.  The crimes commited by the Usatshi are horrible and it is a sad that Croats and so called Catholics participated.  However, I always see the Croats being reminded of their crimes but the Serbs are never called on the carpet for their own concentration camp in Belgrade for Croats, Bosnians, and others.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Deacon Lance,
Your referenced article above is the official Vatican story, without doubt, and they are sticking to it.
As Paul Harvey would say, for the rest of the story read:

The Fracture Zone - A Return to the Balkans, Simon Winchester, Harper Collins, 1999.

A good study from an author who to my knowledge is neither Orthodox nor Roman Catholic, but well versed in the entire current situation and who starts his book from the Hapsburg and Ottoman Era leading up to and including Kosovo to 1998. You will also find he does not withhold criticism of any of the three "sides" involved -Serbs included. The book is based on his studies and two lengthy personal trips throughout Yugoslavia, one in the early 1970's and the second late 1990's.
One must read all sides to understand a problem. I've not read the "Serb" side yet; just the official Vatican version and Mr.Winchester's.

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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2004, 11:09:32 AM »


Some websites that tell the real story -

http://www.reformation.org/holoc4.html

http://www.zipcon.net/OCW/1998/ocw_1440.html

Excerpt from the above website regarding Stepinac -

   On November 17, 1941, Archbishop Stepinac convened a bishops’ conference in Zagreb to give canonical sanction to the forcible mass conversion of the Serbs. The apostolic administrator in his “Directive” in the Bishopric News (No. 2, 1942) wrote: “Our work is legal because it is in accord with official Vatican policy . . . that the Eastern Orthodox Church be converted to the Catholic faith.” Three ways out were offered the Serbs: “to accept the Catholic faith, to move out [of Croatia], or to be cleansed with the metal broom [shot].” Roughly a third were converted and thus saved, a third driven from the country, and a third put to death.
    The Franciscan Filipovic admitted that on his orders 40,000 were killed in the concentration camp at Jasenovac. Various fanatical priests proudly reported to the archbishop the numbers they had forcibly converted (2300, 6000, etc. ). One curate charged 180 dinars for each conversion, so that in a single Serb village he collected 80,000 dinars. The confiscated property of the Orthodox Serbs, their monasteries, real estate, gold and jewels, amounted to some millions. According to Archbishop Stepinac’s report to the pope on May 8, 1944, 240,000 Serbs were converted. Such an opportunity for the Roman Catholic Church had not come in centuries.

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/isc/

Info on individual Roman Catholic priests -

Fr Draganovic -

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/draganovic/index.html

Jasenovac -  

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/jasenovac/index.html

==========

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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2004, 12:40:23 PM »

"Stepinac was sentenced on October 11, 1946 to sixteen years of forced labour and imprisonment, deprived of his civic rights and his property confiscated.

After his condemnation public opinion around the world was astounded. Thus the erstwhile Secretary of State Dean Acheson declared the following on the day of his sentence: "The circumstances surrounding the indictment and condemnation of the archbishop are more than regrettable. The Catholic Church in Croatia is being persecuted by the inhumane methods of a police regime."

A little later the great French writer Francois Mauriac wrote in "Le Figaro" on December 2nd, 1946. "We have read the declarations and assembled the attestations and are convinced that the Archbishop of Zagreb has been sentenced to sixteen years of imprisonment despite his innocence. If after this Christians are silent then the stones themselves will speak out."

A month after Mauriac's statement Winston Churchill himself spoke in the British Parliament: "This is a political trial with the intention of causing the Catholic Church in Croatia to split with the Vatican. Tito, after all, has openly declared it. One should not forget that the resistance to atheism is stronger when there is outside support. Here I refer to the Pope. The trial itself has no connection with justice and is indeed a violation of it. Tito's regime cares nothing for justice. The martyrdom of Archbishop Stepinac would be complete should the sentence be applied and executed. God grant that the archbishop endure in spirit and in body all that he will have to endure in order that Christianity may prevail thanks to his courage."

These are only some of the individual reactions. I could enumerate hundreds such as those of Cardinals Spellman and Griffin; of bishop Fulton Sheen and the Serbian Orthodox bishop Milovijevic; of the Jewish National Conference in the U.S.A.; of the Methodist and Presbyterian churches; of Ivan Mestrovic, Vladko Macek, Bogdan Radica; of the Irish parliament and so on. The same with all the world newspapers, of which we will mention "The New York Times", "The New York Herald Tribune", "The New Leader", "American Journal" and particularly "L'Osservatore Romano" and many Swiss newspapers. It is particularly pertinent to quote The New York Times of October 13th, 1946: "The trial of Archbishop Stepinac was a purely political one with the outcome determined in advance. The trial and sentence of this Croatian prelate are in contradiction with the Yugoslavia's pledge that it will respect human rights and the fundamental liberties of all without reference to race, sex, language and creed. Archbishop Stepinac was sentenced and will be incarcerated as part of the campaign against his church, guilty only of being the enemy of Communism."

It is likewise pertinent to quote the declaration of Lois S. Breier, representative of the American Jewish Committee, uttered on October 13th, 1946 at the Bronx Round Table: "This eminent ecclesiastical dignitary was indicted for collaborating with the Nazism. We Jews deny this. We know from his past that since 1934 he has been a sincere friend of the Jews whom Hitler and his henchmen destroyed. He was one of the very rare men in Europe who raised his voice against the Nazis tyranny at a time when it was very difficult and dangerous for him to do so. This man who is today a victim of a shameful trial, during the whole Nazi epoch publicly and dauntlessly denounced the horrible N++rmberg laws. His opposition to Nazi terrorism never let up. He likewise denounced the infamy of the yellow armbands, asserting that it was an affront to human dignity. It was all to his credit that this procedure was abandoned in Croatia."

In contrast to the reaction of the cultured and free world Tito made this comment to the press in Zagreb in a statement on the trial: "We are accused of having jailed Stepinac only in order to remove him. In the meantime, before passing his sentence, I have already told Mgr. Hurley, the papal nuncio, that he must recall Stepinac himself or we will jail him."

Djilas himself when he was still in power asked Ivan Mestrovic what he thought about the sentence passed on Stepinac. He replied the following: "To tell you the truth I, and not only I, think that Stepinac is a man of integrity and firm character who will not be broken. He was indeed innocent despite his sentence but how often in history has it happened that innocent people have been sentenced out of political necessity."(Cool

After he had spent five years in the prison at Lepoglava Stepinac was interned in the end of 1951 in the parish hall in Krasic. Since that time until his martyr's death on February 10th, 1960 there had been many documents revealing the person and the character of the Archbishop of Zagreb. As soon as he arrived in Karsic Stepinac gainsaid the information broadcast over Radio Belgrade: "Radio Belgrade is mistake when it speaks of me as the 'former Archbishop Stepinac'. I am the Archbishop of Zagreb. They can oust me from this country by force alone."

Already at the beginning of 1952 he complained to the correspondent of the Belgian newspaper "La Gazette d'Anvers" with these words: "My freedom is illusory. I cannot freely receive anyone, being under constant surveillance. But I would rather die than yield."

The circumstances of the archbishop's internment considerably aggravated him after the Vatican's secret consistorium of January 12th, 1953 in which Pope Pius XII appointed the Archbishop of Zagreb cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church, saying among other things this: "In this celebration we remember with heavy heart our distinguished brother the Archbishop of Zagreb to whom it is not given to share this joy with us and to return to his homeland. Although he is absent, we embrace him with paternal love. I fervently wish everyone to know that the dignity of cardinal has been bestowed upon him. Our only wish is to reward his great merits and the staunch faith of his nation, which in these troubled times courageously confessed the creed of Catholicism. Our conscience does not permit us to accept the indictment and sentence passed on the Archbishop of Zagreb. Besides this we are answering the wishes and hopes of the whole Catholic world when we elevate to the honour of cardinal of the Catholic Church this exemplary pastor who epitomizes the apostolic creed and the strength of Christianity."


http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/stepinac.htm
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2004, 01:29:01 PM »

Indeed, yes, the real story from:

anti-Catholic fundamentalists:
http://www.reformation.org/page2.html#The%20Wonders

A non-canonical church:
http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/parish.htm

And a nationalist Serbian org which while trying to appear impartial is only concerned with the wrongdoings of Croatian Catholics:
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/

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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2004, 01:59:27 PM »

Thank you, Deacon Lance, for your spirited defense of the Croatian archbishop and the textual "sound bites" above. I've not referenced nor sourced the websites above, but based both of my posts from the work I cited above.
That particular work details the archbishop's early violent anti-Orthodox views, his anti-Serb teachings and militant Catholicity. It goes on further to show that these views were used by the Ustashi to further their persecutions. Later in the war the archbishop realized his error and how his extreme views were used - or abused, or mis-used- and tried to make corrections resulting in the efforts for which he is extolled in your post.
My point was not to attack this man, per se, but to show the general mindset among the Germans and the Catholics in the region in the light of this new "scandal". This "German Roman Catholic"  scandal will set back regional relations for decades or longer.

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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2004, 05:01:25 PM »

Indeed, yes, the real story from:

anti-Catholic fundamentalists:
http://www.reformation.org/page2.html#The%20Wonders

A non-canonical church:
http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/parish.htm

And a nationalist Serbian org which while trying to appear impartial is only concerned with the wrongdoings of Croatian Catholics:
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/



======


Oh yes!  And of course all the pictures are phoney and all the documentation quoted in the Pavelic Papers given below are bogus even though most of them come from U.S. Army and CIA files.  After all the Roman Catholic church never lies or never hides anything.  We all know that, don't we?  Read the footnotes on where the documentation contained in the Pavelic Papers is abtained -

Documents

US Army File: Rome Area Allied Command to CIC
August 8, 1945: Mention of "San Gerolamo" as a Haven for Ustase in Rome Just a Few Months After VE-Day
Alleged Vatican Protection of Jugoslav War Criminals
July 12, 1946: Reference to a number of Nazi-allied figures taking sanctuary in San Girolamo

CIA File: Organization of the Ustase Abroad
October 1946: Krunoslav Draganovic mentioned as one of the chief Ustase operatives in post-war Europe

US Army File: CIC Memorandum from Agent Gowen
January 22, 1947: Investigation of Ante Pavelic's Vatican Sanctuary; First Appearance of Draganovic by Name in the Army Dossier

CIA File: Background Report on Krunoslav Draganovic
February 12, 1947: CIC Special Agent Robert Clayton Mudd's background report on Draganovic's activities

CIA File: Documentary Evidence of Krunoslav Draganovic's Ustase Activity
September 5, 1947: CIC Agent Mudd's report citing evidence of Draganovic's role in the Ratline, sent without results to his superiors

US Army File: Memorandum by Agent William Gowen
September 12, 1947: "...any extradition of Subject would deal a staggering blow to the Roman Catholic Church"

CIA File: The "Alter Ego" of Ante Pavelic
November 26, 1947: A second intelligence report, this time stating Mudd's earlier allegations as fact

CIA File: The Croatian Resistance Movement
June 14, 1948: CIA report on the organization and internal dynamics of the Krizari

US Army File: Rat Line from Austria to South America
July 12, 1948: Crucial memo from the CIC in Austria, written by the man who formed the Ratline with Krunoslav Draganovic's assistance

News: Yugoslavs Try Fifty as Spies
July 13, 1948: News account of the Yugoslav trials of captured Krizari, mentioning Draganovic

US Army File: History of the Italian Rat Line
April 10, 1950: Comprehensive history of the Nazi smuggling program and Krunoslav Draganovic's role

CIA File: Reported Arrival of Ante Pavelic in Argentina
December 2, 1948: Draganovic assists Pavelic's final escape from Italy

CIA File: Franjo Cvijic and the Ustase Treasury
June 17, 1949: Report on movements of NDH bank president Franjo Cvijic and his expected emigration to Argentina, courtesy Draganovic

CIA File: CIA Internal Memo
October 16, 1950: Mentions Krunoslav Draganovic's relations with Pavelic, Macek and other Croatian leaders

CIA File: Notes from the Foreign Language Press
November 8, 1950: Newspaper reports on Krunoslav Draganovic and Dragutin Kamber's wartime record

CIA File: "An Uncompromising and Dangerous Extremist"
July 24, 1952: Overview of Fr. Krunoslav Draganovic's activity from 1943 to 1952

CIA File: Irregular Activity of Krunoslav Draganovic
October 1, 1953: Report, possibly intercepted, of Krunoslav Draganovic's alleged corruption

CIA File: Attempt to Penetrate US Guard Companies
December 10, 1954: Summary of report detailing attempts by Krunoslav Draganovic to infiltrate US guard companies in Central Europe

CIA File: Dismissal of Krunoslav Draganovic from San Girolamo
November 19, 1958: Document outlining circumstances behind Draganovic's departure from the former nerve center of the Ratline

CIA File: Summary of Activities of the SILC
November 20, 1958: Summary of the unidentified SILC, with reference to Krunoslav Draganovic's activities in Italy in 1944

CIA File: Request for Info, SETAF Verona
April 13, 1959: American intelligence in Verona's request for all documents relating to Krunoslav Draganovic

CIA File: CIC Reply to SETAF Verona
April 16, 1959: The CIC responds with an extensive description of Draganovic's Nazi-smuggling activities. Verona never mentions it again.

CIA File: The Re-Recruitment of Krunoslav Draganovic
May 2, 1959: US Army intelligence makes contact once again with Father Krunoslav Draganovic

CIA File: Report by Senior Agent "SARDI"
May 29, 1959: A senior agent, codenamed SARDI, finds glaring holes in Draganovic's story in this report

CIA File: Krunoslav Draganovic's Pay Records from US Intelligence, 1959-1960
May 1959-July 1960: Expense sheets from American asset DYNAMO, aka Father Krunoslav Draganovic

CIA File: The Doctor Fabiano Statement
July 8, 1959: Signed statement by Krunoslav Draganovic to sign for all money with a code-name

CIA File: Dottore DYNAMO
c. July 8, 1959: Linked with the "Doctor Fabiano statement," reveals another Draganovic alias in negotiations with American agents

CIA File: SETAF 41 Bona Fides for Krunoslav Draganovic
ca. September 1959: Instructions for agents on methods to establish contact with Krunoslav Draganovic

CIA File: Termination Files of Krunoslav Draganovic
February 7, 1962: Files under Krunoslav Draganovic's three codenames, detailing reasons for his termination from US intelligence

News: Priest, Termed War Criminal, Back in Yugoslavia
November 11, 1967: First confirmation in the press of Draganovic's defection back to Yugoslavia

CIA File: State Department File on Krunoslav Draganovic
January 9, 1968: Summary of Draganovic's public 'career' a few months after his defection to Yugoslavia

CIA File: DOJ/OSI Investigation of Klaus Barbie
1983: First admission of the existence of the Ratline and Krunoslav Draganovic's role as a 'prime mover'

News Excerpt: The Return of Bolivia's Blood-Stained Dictator
1997: Draganovic and the Butcher of Lyons, Klaus Barbie

News Excerpt: Peron's Bloody Ties
November 9, 1998: Krunoslav Draganovic and Argentina, the Last Redoubt of Nazism

News Excerpt: A Vow of Silence
March 30, 1998: "Did Gold Stolen by Croatian Fascists Reach the Vatican?"
 


And of course we can't take the word of a world renown authority because it comes from a Protestant website -

Lets see what Avro Manhattan himself a Roman Catholic and considered the world's foremost authority on Roman Catholic politics has to say -

http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html

++++++++++

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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2004, 05:53:34 PM »

From the folks who gave us: http://www.reformation.org/pope-constantine.html
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2004, 07:27:15 PM »

Ah yes, the CIA.  The folks who gave us WMDs.  Try again.

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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2004, 01:57:56 AM »

Ah yes, the CIA.  The folks who gave us WMDs.  Try again.

Ouch! Touche. A fine riposte Grin
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2004, 02:07:32 AM »


A masterful parry, cleverly disarming his opponent Grin
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2004, 11:41:47 AM »

From the folks who gave us: http://www.reformation.org/pope-constantine.html
 


A masterful parry, cleverly disarming his opponent

=========

Not really!  It's all in the way one looks at things.  The site is run by Protestants which have love for neither Roman Catholicism nor Orthodox Catholicism. So one cannot claim they are pro Orthodox.  As Protestants, their grasp on early christian history may be off.  But, we are not talking about ancient Christian history, we are talking about things that happened barely 60+ years ago with plenty of pictures and documentation to back it up.

It's more like comparing apples and oranges.

=========

[Ah yes,the CIA.  The folks who gave us WMD's.  Try again.

Ouch! Touche. A fine riposte }

Need a bandage  prodromos?  Whats so fine about it?  We are talking about the 1940's during wartime.  Not the early 21st century.  If one wants to take as truth what comes out of the Vatican in 2004 considering  what one reads everyday in the newspaper regarding Vatican lies and coverups, and compare it to U.S. Army and CIA intelligence in the 1940's,
to discredit provided well documented evidence, than what can I say.  

The answers you applaud are answers one gives when they cannot dispute what is being said with alternate evidence or documentation to the contrary.  This person never gives factual evidence.  Instead I'm told to look it up myself and believe it because either the Vatican denies it or Roman Catholic bishop so and so said it isn't true.

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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2004, 12:15:18 PM »

Orthodoc,

you forgot to add a smiley to the end of your post to indicate humour (hint - don't take what I posted so seriously)

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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2004, 02:25:13 PM »

Orthodoc,

I could cite sources till the cows come home and you wouldn't accept it.  Please note also I was defending Blessed Alojzije no one else.  I will readily concede Catholics including clergy were guilty of crimes with the Ustase.  All you cited documents are refering to Draganovic.  If you look to the documents they have for Blessed Alojzije http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/stepinac/index.html#documents
They have nine documents which don't say much of anything and one essay full of the expected anti-Catholic rhetoric often found in the media these days.

On the otherhand one of the posts provided quotes from the US Secretary of State and Prime Minister Churchhill who were convinced of Blessed Alojzije's innocence and that the charges were Communist railroading.  Given that the Communists did the same thing to the Blessed Marytrs and Confessors of the Greek Catholic Churches of Ukraine, Carpathia, Romania, Slovakia I am disinclined to believe anything they or their progeny had/have to say.  

The Communists wanted to break the unity of the Church, in every country they offered the bishops to be patriarchs or archbishops of an independent Catholic or Orthodox Church.  When the Blessed Martyrs and Confessors refused charges of treason and collaboration with the Nazis were trumped up and they were killed or imprisoned.

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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2004, 04:56:35 PM »

[If you look to the documents they have for Blessed Alojzije www.pavelicpapers.com/document....html#documents
They have nine documents which don't say much of anything and one essay full of the expected anti-Catholic rhetoric often found in the media these days.]

Oh yes, we all know how unfairly the media is to the Roman Catholic Church these days regarding the cover up and lies.


Ok.  Lets look at other sources.  What's amazing is that all the websites with pictures of the infamous Stepinac seemed to have disappeared.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=stepinac

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_catholic_church.htm

Some comments from Roman Catholics & Croatians regarding Stepinac and other Roman Catholic priests who were under his authority at the time he was Chaplin for the Utashie -

TESTIMONY

'When the civilized world finds out about it, revulsion and indignation will
be such that I do not know what will happen to us Croats.  Just one detail:  
In the streets of Croatian cities the gouged-out eyes of Serbs are collected
and offered for sale 30-40 eyes at a time.'

Nikola Pavelic,
Croatian Diplomat,
on his arrival from Croatia
to Rio de Janeiro,
May 15, 1942.

_________________________________________

THE WERE MORE THAN 1,000 ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS WHO WERE WAR CRIMINALS AND
WHO SERVED UNDER ARCHBISHOP STEPINAC IN ZAGREB  THEIR SERVICE TO ROMAN
CATHOLIC CHRISTIANITY WILL REMAIN A STAIN ON THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.

'It cannot be wiped out of anyone's memory that nearly half of the 22
concentration camps in the Independent State of Croatia during the Second
World War were headed by Roman Catholic priests'  Professor Rhoda E. Howard,
Ph.D.

'THE ENTRY OF GERMAN TROOPS IN 1941 INTO CROATIA WAS GREETED WITH SWASTIKA
FLAGS. ACCORDING TO RELIABLE ESTIMATES, 95% OF THE INHABITANTS WERE
SYMPATHIZING WITH GERMANY...'  Admiral Levisch, Maritime Attache
to the Reich in his report to Berlin,  March 9, 1941.

'CATHOLIC CLERGYMEN NOT ONLY DID NOT TAKE A STAND FOR WHICH THE SITUATION
CALLED, BUT  WERE IN FACT OFTEN THE LEADERS OF PAVELICH'S BANDITS BLOODY
ORGIES.  FOR A LONG TIME THE POLITICS OF PAVELICH'S GOVERNMENT AND THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH WERE IDENTICAL, WHICH GREATLY INFLUENCED THE THEN PRESENT
DAY CATHOLIC BISHOPRIC WITH STEPINAC AT ITS HEAD ... INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE
BEING SLAUGHTERED ... EVEN THEIR CLERGY IS INVOLVED, AND THEY DO NOT RAISE A
VOICE OF PROTEST.'  Borislav Andelinovic, Croatian politician, December 23,
1941.


THE FOLLOWING IS A PARTIAL LIST TAKEN FROM THE RESEARCH OF DR. MILAN BULAJIC
AND HIS  4-VOLUME DISSERTATION ON THE USTASHI CRIMES OF GENOCIDE. DR.
BULAJIC IS CONSIDERED AT EXPERT ON GENOCIDE BY THE UNITED NATIONS AND HAS
GIVEN TESTIMONY IN A NUMBER OF CASES.


ARSAMOVIC, Dr. ANTUN

    Catholic bishop of Djakovo. Decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic. Used terror
to force Orthodox Serbs to convert to Catholicism. Took over the Serbian
Orthodox churches in his jurisdictional area and converted them to Catholic
churches. He ordered many of the Orthodox churches destroyed such as those
in Bracevci, Poucje, Depsin, Tenje, Dalj, Markusica, Kucanci, Budimci,
Poganovci, Bijelo Brdo, Borovo Selo, Trpinje, Bobota, Pacetin, Brsadin,
Cepin, Martinci Cepinski, Trnjani, Klokocevik, Topolje, and Brod na Savi. He
followed the directives in the testament 'The Return to the Faith of our
Fathers,'  written and published by St. Jeronimo in Zagreb, which was under
the direct control of Archbishop Stepinac.

ALAUPOVIC, ANTE

    Catholic priest in New Sarajevo. Close friend and associate of Archbishop
Saric and Jasenovac killer Max Luburich. Under his leadership, the property
of the Serbian Cultural Society 'Prosveta'  in Sarajevo was pillaged and
destroyed. Very active Ustasha. Decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

BILOBRK, Dr. VLADO

    Catholic curate in Metkovic. Called on all Croats to use pick-axes, hoes,
and scythes to slaughter Serbs, because they were not worth wasting Croatian
bullets on. On April 27, 1941 he was one of the first Croatian clerics to
organize the massacres of Serbs. With his band of killers, he slaughtered
hundreds of them on the bank of the Neretva River and had their bodies
thrown into the water.   At the end of 1943, on his insistence, 107 women,
children, and old men were slaughtered in the villages of Sipka, Cilum and
Pepsko Blato. Insisting that all Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia
must be executed, for fear if they were simply expelled they would return to
their homes. Dr. Vlado was decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

BLAZEVIC, GRGA

Catholic priest in Bosanski Novi, where he organized a concentration camp
for Serbs and made himself the commander. Many Serbs who were arrested were
slaughtered in this camp on his orders. He insisted that he was doing what
Archbishop Stepinac wanted and expected of him. For his work on behalf of
the 'Croatian cause,' he was decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

BRALO, BOZIDAR

Catholic priest in the St. Joseph Church in Sarajevo. Organized the
slaughter of 180 Serbs on the Alipasa Bridge. After killing them, he danced
the Croatian national dance, the Circle Dance, around their bodies before
their bodies were thrown into the river. He organized a large number of
Muslims from Sarajevo into slaughtering bands. These Muslim groups were
responsible for the brutal deaths of thousands of Serbs in the area of
Sarajevo. Bralo also murdered thousands of Serbs in the concentration camp
Jasenovac. He was a member of the Ustasha Parliament, together with
Archbishop Stepinac. Personally slaughtered Serbs in the villages of Sabalj,
Marsic-Gaj, Piskavica, Ponira, Biljevina, Kozara Mountain, Sanski Most,
Kamengrad and Grmec.  Decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

BUJANOVIC, JOLE

Catholic priest who was the director of the Catholic parishes in the Lika
and Gacka areas. Slaughtered Serbs indiscriminantly, then pillaged their
properties. Organized Ustasha 'storm' units, consisting of the worst dregs
of the Croatian criminal element, who were sent to slaughter Serbs
throughout the province of Lika. Insisted that no Serb must survive in the
Croatian state. Insisted that this was the aim of His Holiness, the Pope. As
late as February 1945, he hanged 60 Serbs in Gospic. He was decorated by
Fascist Ante Pavelic.

CULINA, Fra ANSELMO

Catholic priest who was personally killing inmates of Jasenovac. He
committed all of his murders with a small knife that he liked to show to his
victims before killing them. He carried this knife with him at all times,
even when holding church services for the Croat soldiers in the camp.
Decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

DJURIC, ANTE

Catholic priest in Divusa. Chief of the Ustasha Police in Dvor na Uni.
Organized bands of killers and sent them to various Serb villages to
slaughter the men, women, and children. He instructed them specifically not
to spare women and children. After the killings, he absolved all of the
murderers of their sins. He was an extreme sadist. He would arrest Serbs,
locking them up in his stable, where he tortured them for hours before
killing them. He insisted from the church pulpit that the Serbian question
in Croatia could only be solved with the 'steel broom' (the gun). In his
journal, he noted that on April 14, 1941 (four days after the establishment
of the Independent State of Croatia) he went to Zagreb to ask for
instructions from Stepinac and then, he continued in his journal: 'I met
with the leaders of all the surrounding parishes, and we agreed what we need
to do.'  The following day he arrested a number of Serbian women, forced them
to undress and ride naked on horses through the Croatian villages in his
area. Then he slaughtered them. He was decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

GUBERINA, Dr. IVO

Catholic priest and a bloodthirsty Ustasha. Calling Serbs 'a poison in
Croatia,' he wrote in 1943: 'It is the natural right of the Croatian State
and the Croatian people to cure its body of such poison...according to all
principles of Catholic morality they are assailants, and the state of
Croatia has the right to destroy them, even with a knife.'  More than a half
a million Serbs were murdered by the Croats during World War II.  Many were
killed with a knife.

GUDELJ, Don MARTIN

Catholic priest in Opuzen. Called on all Croats in his church sermons to
begin digging Serbian graves. Organized groups of killers that went with him
through the Serbian villages in his jurisdiction, killing the Serbs they
found there and pillaging their properties. He killed the children by
beheading them with a bayonet. Personally slaughtered 450 men, women, and
children. Together with Fra Dr. Bilobrk, he committed great massacres of
Serbs on June 28, 1941, Vidovdan, a Serbian national holiday.

KARGACIN, VLADIMIR

Catholic cleric and professor. Considered one of the better known Croatian
intellectuals. A member of a group of Croats responsible for killing the
Serbian Orthodox priests in the area of Gospic. As a professor, he trained a
number of high school boys and organized them into killer bands that roamed
through Serbian villages in his area, indiscriminantly killing hundreds of
Serbian men, women, and children.

KAURINOVIC, Msgr. JOSIP

Catholic priest in Prijedor. Special representative of His Holiness, the
Pope. Personally participated in the mass killings of Serbs, including women
and children. Preferred killing Serbs to expelling them. He insisted that
they could, conceivably return some day to their homes. He personally
arrested Serbian Orthodox priests in the area, tortured them, then murdered
them. He was decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

KLARIC, Fra ANTE

Franciscan priest in Tramosnjica who personally slaughtered a number of
Serbs. He too, felt there were 'better' methods of killing than guns and
bullets. Preached directly from the pulpit that 'We don't have enough arms
or knives, but we should make knives out of old scythes and sickles so that
whenever we see a Serb, we can slay him.'  Responsible for the deaths of
about 3,000 Serbs in Donja and Gornja Slatina, Brcko, and the surrounding
Serbian villages.

KRALIK, FRANJO

Catholic priest and chief-editor of the Catholic magazine 'Katolicki
Tjednik,'  through which he promoted an unrelenting hatred toward the Serbs.
In his writings, he insisted that Croatia could not be cleansed of Serbs in
a 'nice way' and added: 'Pope Gregory VII didn't clean up the Catholic
Church in some nice way, but with force.'

MOGUS, MATE

Franciscan priest and very active Ustasha. The first Ustasha commandant in
the District of Udbina. At a meeting in Udbina on June 13, 1941, he preached
the following: 'Look, people, at these 16 brave Ustashi, who have 16,000
bullets and who will kill 16,000 Serbs, after which we will divide among us
in a brotherly manner the Mutilic and Krbava fields.'  This speech was the
initiation of the massacre of thousands of Serbs in the Udbina District.

NIEDZIELSKI, Dr. FELIX

Catholic priest who was an assistant to the bloodthirsty Ustasha, Gutic.
Together, they were two of the most barbarous Croats during World War II.
Niedzielski was head of a Croatian Youth Organization and intensely promoted
a hatred of Serbs among them. Leader of the 'Crusaders' in Croatia. Elected
to publicly praise Ante Pavelic. In one of those praises, in 'Nedelja'
(Sunday), a Croatian newspaper published in Zagreb, on April 27, 1941, he
was quoted as saying: 'Glory to our Lord! Gratitude to Hitler, and infinite
honor and glory to our leader Ante Pavelic.'  Personally slaughtered Serbs
with relish. A very close friend of Archbishop Stepinac.

NIKSIC, IVAN

Catholic priest in Slunj. The Serbs in Slunj (on the Dalmatian Coast) were
terrified by his presence in the area. He was the principal initiator of all
the killings and pillaging in the area. He was present and participated in
the massacres of hundreds of Serbs by the Tucic pit, where the bodies of
those Serbs were thrown. Many of those Serbs were thrown in the pit alive.
After the bodies were thrown in, Niksic himself threw live hand grenades in
to make sure that no Serb survived.  All the other Roman priests from that
area, such as those from Gracac, Ricica, and Lovinac collaborated with him.
The slaughter of Serbs in the village of Stikada was organized by Niksic and
carried out by the priest of Gracac. These Roman priests called on all the
Serbs from the area to come to Stikada Marsh for a conversion to the Roman
communion or risk their lives. When the Serbs arrived, two of the Croatian
priests of the Roman Catholic Church brought in a group of Croat killers
from the neighboring villages, equipped with sledgehammers and hatchets.
After tying them up, the Croats killed all the victims. When the Italian
troops came to the area a short while later and permitted the exhumation of
the bodies, it was established that many of the victims were buried while
still alive. There was dust from the soil in the lungs as established by an
Italian pathologist. Niksic was decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

PALJUG, MATO

Catholic priest and professor of Theology in Bjelovar who insisted that all
Serbs in Croatia must be executed. Ruthlessly promoted hatred toward Serbs,
especially toward Serbian Orthodox priests. He was later promoted to the
position of instructor at the military school in Zagreb, where he worked
more closely with Archbishop Stepinac and continued to promote hatred toward
the Serbs.

PERIC, Dr. SRECKO

Catholic priest from the Monastery of Gorica, near Livno. About twenty
friars from this monastery participated with Peric in slaughtering about
5,000 Serbs from the Livno area. Dr. Peric first arrested the Serbian men
from Livno and took them to the Koprivnica, between Bugojno and Rupres. He
had them brutalized and executed. Some were tortured to death. He then
arrested their mothers, wives, and children and ended their lives in the
same way. The women were raped, their breasts were cut off & children were
dismembered and their eyes were gouged out. The killers then cut off the
heads of the children and proceeded to throw them into their mothers  laps.
Peric had all the Serbs from the village of Golinjevo thrown alive into the
pit at the top of Tusnica Mountain. He had their wives and children thrown
into the pit at Komasnica Mountain. He had the Serbian men, women, and
children from the village of Gornji and Donji Rupnjani thrown into the pit
in Klanacka forest. He had 200 Serbs slaughtered in the school building in
Celebic. He had 300 women and children slaughtered in the village of
Caprazlija. He had hundreds of slain Serbs thrown into the pit in the Dikusa
forest.

RAZUM, MICHAEL

Catholic priest in Petrinja. An active Ustasha who extensively used terror
to force Serbs to convert to the Roman faith.  A very close associate of
Ante Pavelic's minister of Faiths. Principally and directly responsible for
the killing of 1,029 Serbs in the Serbian Orthodox church in Glina. Only one
man survived to tell the horrifying story his name was Ljuban Jednak. He
died last year. (See Appendix A)

SCHOLZ, Fra SIDONIJE

Franciscan priest who murdered Serbian Orthodox priest Djordje Bogic of
Nasice after torturing him. He cut off Bogic's nose and tongue, then cut him
open the full length of his stomach and wrapped his intestines around his
neck. He was decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

SANTIC, BOZIDAR

Catholic priest from Zagreb who was sent by Archbishop Stepinac to
Slobostina to terrorize Serbs to force them to convert to the Roman
confession. Conversion was not the only thing on their agenda. When Santic
came to Slobostina with his band of killers, they took the six-month old
child of Dragan Danilovic and cut him in half with a bayonet. They then took
his other child, who was three years old, and did the same. They went to the
mother next, killed her, took all of her clothes and placed the four parts
of her childrens' bodies on top of her. When the killers entered the
village, they were naked to their waist which should have indicated to the
villagers that their neighbors of yesterday were coming to kill them all.
The killings took all day. There were three deep wells in the village by the
local Serbian church. The killers filled them all with the bodies of the
dead and covered them with bricks and soil. They then burned the village to
the ground.

SIMRAK, Fra Dr. JANKO

Catholic bishop. He pillaged the Serbian Orthodox Monastery of Lepavina and
transformed it into a Croatian monastery. This was done in agreement with a
decree Archbishop Stepinac issued calling for the creation of new Croatian
Roman Catholic monasteries and churches with the profits from confiscated
Serbian Orthodox Church properties. One part of these properties had to be
turned over to the Bishopric in Zagreb for its use. For his work, Simrak was
decorated by Fascist Ante Pavelic.

TOMAS, Don ILIJA

Catholic priest in Klepci who was the principal organizer of the slaughter
of Serbs in the county of Capljina in 1941. Hundreds of Serbs, whose bodies
were thrown into the pits of Bivolje Brdo and Opuzen, were the victims of
this Croatian Roman Catholic priest. On his orders, Croats killed several
hundred Serbs and took them to the Surmanci pit, throwing them alive into
the 150 foot abyss. Many of the victims were children. Tomas also 'invited'
Serbs to his church for conversion to the Roman confession, charging them
150 kunas (Croatian currency during the Ustasha regime+æ  & now revived under the
Tudjman administration.) After he collected the money from the Serbs, he had
them executed.

___________________________________________

There are thousands of archives about the Holocaust in Yugoslavia, Germany,
the United Kingdom, France, Romania, Russia, Greece and the United States
that have and are being released under the Freedom of Information Act.  Some
of these archives have been accidentally released that has been an
embarrassment to many individuals in the Vatican.  We now know for a fact
that Fr. Draganovic who ran the Vatican Ratline was working for the CIA. For
those of you interested in this history I suggest you read, The Web of
Disinformation by the late David Martin (1989) and The Rape of Serbia by the
late Michael Lees (1989).

___________________________________________

ABOUT THE AUTHOR OF THIS RESPONSE

William Dorich is the author of 5 books on the Balkans including his 1991
book, Serbian Genocide, 1941-45 and his 1992 book, Kosovo.  He is currently
working on a book entitled, Sins of the Father about Archbishop Stepinac and
the 1,070 Roman Catholic priests who fled Croatia after WWII to escape
justice in Argentina.  

=======

Orthodoc  (Whose paternal grandfather was born and raised in Tucepi, Croatia and was part of the Croatian aristrocracy.  Whose ancestors include a Croation RC bishop, and governer of what is called the Makarska  Riviera)





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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2004, 05:15:56 PM »

Orthodoc,

You site another two anit-Catholic/Conspiracy theory sites and want to call it credible evidence.  Your anti-Catholic bigotry is revealed by your choice of sources, whcih seems if it is anti-Catholic it must be true and it is good enough for you.  

I am not wasting any more time arguing with you or responding to your posts.  I will challenge any untruth you post only for the benefit of those who would fail to get the other side of the story.

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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2004, 05:18:55 PM »

I could cite sources till the cows come home and you wouldn't accept it.  Please note also I was defending Blessed Alojzije no one else.  I will readily concede Catholics including clergy were guilty of crimes with the Ustase.

Deacon Lance,
As usual the discussion has reached the point of talking past each other and not to each other.
I've no doubt that the archbishop was innocent of much, if not most, of the charges in those trials post WWII.
What you are failing to see, he DID see, however. He saw, rather late in WWII, that his earlier militant Catholic rhetoric had fostered a field the bitter fruit resulting in the anti-Orthodox and anti-Jewish Nazi pogroms (as he admitted with a good bit of naivete, his teachings were used to help justify these persecutions). Finally realizing this, he then worked to undo the harm.
After WWII, he was persecuted by the communist Serbs who also engaged in anti-Catholic pogroms of their own (no surprise).
You are answering one set of circumstances with a later set. They may be historically related, but not so in this discussion of the new German Roman Catholic scandal. If you cannot see how the new scandal re-opens the wounds the archbishop's pre-WWII teachings helped cause, then you don't understand the Balkans very well.
I am sorry he suffered; many did, many still are...

Demetri
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2004, 06:17:12 PM »

[I will challenge any untruth you post only for the benefit of those who would fail to get the other side of the story.]

You have yet to prove anything I have posted regarding this or anything else  as an untruth Fr Deacon.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2004, 07:29:25 PM »

That site is just ridiculous. They say that LBJ was sworn in on a Roman Missal and that Christopher Columbus was a Franciscan Friar. Che male!
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2004, 07:48:58 PM »

Protestants can have a very interesting take on Christian history sometimes.
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2004, 10:15:43 PM »

Demetri,

It is not that I think Blessed Alojzije did no wrong.  I think he did let his nationlism blind him to who was running the new Croatian state.  What I disagree with is scapegoating and railroading him as Orthodoc's sites attempt to despite no evidence.  

I also disagree with linking an isolated event by one jerk German priest with the return of the Ustase although I understand the sensitivity of the Serbs to this kind of behavior.

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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2009, 09:35:43 AM »

That site is just ridiculous. They say that LBJ was sworn in on a Roman Missal and that Christopher Columbus was a Franciscan Friar. Che male!

LBJ WAS sworn on a Roman missal. This came up during the controversy about the congressman swearing on the Quran.

Enough has been said on the OP's topic and Bp. Alojzije that I won't add to it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 09:36:57 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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