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Antonious Nikolas
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« on: March 27, 2004, 07:44:54 PM »

Hi everyone,  

I just read an interesting essay in an academic journal on the life of Patriarch Nicon of Russia (I believe he lived in the 17th c.) and his interraction with Czar Alexis, the boyars, the Church, and the people.  I was fascinated to learn that before his time, there was a different version of the Nicene Creed being said in Russia, that the people made the sign of the cross with only 2 fingers, and other differences.  Bishop Nicon wanted to reform the Church, not in the Western sense, but to rid it of regional peculiarities what were different with the original Greek customs.  After Nicon's reforms, the Old Believers broke off.  I am interested in learning what the Orthodox think of Nicon today.  Is he a saint?  Are there still many Old Believers?  Why was it necessary for the Russians to abandon their local peculiarities?  Was there something un-Orthodox about them?  Wouldn't it have been better to prevent the schism?  Is the Russian Church now split into 3 factions (Moscow Patriarchate, ROCOR, and Old Believers)?  Or are there more sects?  I mean no offense by the questions, I just want to learn.  Thanks.  

Nick
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2004, 08:06:25 PM »

No one on earth would consider Nicon to be a saint...in fact he was deposed for being an extremely rude person shortly after the reform council.

If you want more info on this subject, I'd suggest you read "Russia, Ritual, Reform" by Paul Meyendorff (SVS Press -> www.svots.edu)

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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2004, 09:36:23 AM »

Thanks Anastasios.  I'll look into that book.  The article which I have already read did mention that he was deposed, but that later the Czar begged his forgiveness and asked him to return from his exile in the north to reclaim his patriarchate.  Unfortunately, he died en route to the capital (he was in his 70's).  One way or another though, all of his reforms were implemented and carried out though right?  This does make him an important figure, no?

Still, I see your point that he might not have been a saint.  The article also mentioned his having priests and bishops under his charge tortured in various ways for offenses such as smoking.
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2008, 11:14:09 PM »

Patriarch Nikon is no doubt an extraordinary patriarch, but that doesn't make him good. He started out as kid who got kicked out of his home by his parents. He went from that to Patriarch of Russia. He did burn people at the stake and force his reforms very harshly, so he got kicked out for good reason.
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 11:21:16 PM »

Now there's a blast from the past. Wink
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2008, 04:19:11 AM »

No one on earth would consider Nicon to be a saint...

Dear Fr, Anastasios,

Oh, that what you say were true, that no one on earth would consider him a saint.

In my sorrowful studies over the years I have come across many who spare no effort in trying to canonize him.

Fr Andrew says, "Patriarch Nikon was looked on as a saint"
http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/nikon.htm

On November 21st, 1917, Tikhon assumed the Patriarchal seat, "with smoking, joking Bolshevik guards posted at the gates of the Dormition Cathedral" ... "and was vested in the rounded, white patriarchal mantle and blue velvet cowl belonging to ... Patriarch Nikon."
http://www.antiochian.org/Bishops/tikhon.htm

John of Shanghai and San Francisco taught his students that, "Patriarch Nikon was the greatest of the Russian patriarchs."
http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/rememb.htm

There is an exhibition at the Moscow Kremlin Museum called "Saint Patriarch Nikon"
http://www.kreml.ru/en/main/exhibition/Russian/?ID=143

Here is a terribly biased testimony that, "He is locally venerated and there is an icon of him on his relics."
http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/moscowd.htm

Even though there are many others like these, one good thing is that it will only get worse. So, I am still thankful for today, even with such great delusions and confusions running around.

If I remember correctly, even though Nikon was deposed it was at least partly rescinded, in order to give him a patriarchal funeral (under the new rites of course).

I believe Nikon to be an enemy of God.



Forgive, John


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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 04:24:03 AM »

Are there still many Old Believers?

Hello there Nikolas,

It is said that there are at least 10,000 Old Believers in the state of Oregon and I have found them in almost every other state. In my interaction with them around the world I conclude that they must now be in every nation on earth. Over the centuries the world influences have indeed compromised a great many Old Believers, tearing families and communities apart, even with those in the USA. My estimation is that there might be between one and two million Old Believers of the strict persuasion in the world today, but most of them are in Russia. I have a brother in the Old Faith who was born in Siberia that is willing to take back to Russia with him. I, being born in the USA, have decided to die here. Time will tell how successful I am at living a strict Old Believer way, but I have a few things going for me. It is a good and interesting study to learn more about such things and I invite you to at least compare notes with me. You can find an email address in my profile here.

Forgive, John

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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 07:56:19 AM »

I am not in the position to judge whether Patr. Nikon was truly Orthodox or a heretic/enemy of God, but it did strike me at one point that contemporaries described him as an extremely dominant person, maybe mentally ill, obsessed with the idea of his own majesty/grandeur. He ordered to make for himself a throne of pure gold, which was the exact replica of the throne of the Tsar, and to put it in the nave of the Holy Dormition (Uspensky) Cathedral in the Kremlin, side-by-side with the Tsar's throne. He insisted that everyone adressed him as "Velikiy Gosudar'" (The Great Lord), again, exactly copying the way people addressed the Tsar. Apparently, he perceived himself as the ruler of all Rus', and interfered with pretty much everything that the shy, soft-natured Alexei Mikhailovich endeavored to do. No wonder the Tsar's patience finally ran out and he summoned a council of bishops that deposed Nikon.

As for his theological and liturgical reform, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the reform was quite small, in fact. He tried to make the liturgical language of the Russian Church closer to the language of the Greeks; for example, he insisted that the name of our Lord be pronounced "Іісус" ("EE-EE-SOOS") instead of "Ісус" ("EE-SOOS"). He also insisted on the "троeпeрстіe," making the sign of the cross with three fingers - the thumb, the index and the third finger - held together and touching the body, and the remaining two fingers held together and touching the palm.

The main reason why Nikon's reforms met such a strong resistance was that after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, there appeared to be a growing consensus among the Russian (or, broader, Eastern Slavic) clergy that now, they, and not the Greeks, were the center of the Orthodox world, the force that was supposed to be leading in defending of the Holy Orthodoxy and not following some weak, degrading, decaying foreign influence. Also, we need to realize that within the Eastern Slavic clergy and monastics, there already had been a rift, started by the debates between the so-called "nestyazhateli" (followers of St. Nilus of Sora) and "iosiflyanye" (followers of bishop Iosif of Volotsk). The grassroots opposers of patr. Nikon were closer to the position of "nestyazhateli," while the supporters of Nikon were clearly "iosiflyanye."
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 03:42:01 PM »

Hello there Nikolas,

It is said that there are at least 10,000 Old Believers in the state of Oregon and I have found them in almost every other state.

May one ask who it is that says this?  And what back-up information can be linked to to support this please? I certainly have never heard of any in Montana, nor in Maryland.  One site says that Oregon has between 6 and 7 thousand, with an additional 1,500 in Alaska, 500 in Canada and "about 50 families in Minnesota". 

http://old.orthodoxnews.org/131/Wandering.htm


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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 03:57:22 PM »

Hello there Nikolas,

It is said that there are at least 10,000 Old Believers in the state of Oregon and I have found them in almost every other state.

May one ask who it is that says this?  And what back-up information can be linked to to support this please? I certainly have never heard of any in Montana, nor in Maryland.  One site says that Oregon has between 6 and 7 thousand, with an additional 1,500 in Alaska, 500 in Canada and "about 50 families in Minnesota". 

http://old.orthodoxnews.org/131/Wandering.htm


Ebor
Having lived in western Oregon for the past 23 years, I am aware of a strong Old Believer presence in the areas surrounding Woodburn (the Willamette Valley just north of the state capital, Salem).  How big this population is, though, I really don't know.
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 04:04:09 PM »

What on earth did he do that could make him a saint? He reformed a few rituals, other than that he was brutal and deposed for good reason.
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2008, 04:37:57 PM »

It is said that there are at least 10,000 Old Believers in the state of Oregon and I have found them in almost every other state.

Really? Just in Oregon? I knew they were there but I didn't think there were that many. I know that there are also large concentration of Old Believers in Alaska. Then I know of the group in Erie who went into ROCOR.

Is the Russian Church now split into 3 factions (Moscow Patriarchate, ROCOR, and Old Believers)?  Or are there more sects?

There are a lot of different sects of Old Believers out there. You have the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy, and the Novozybkovskaya hierarchy who are the groups that have priests. Then there are groups such as Pomortsy, Novopomortsy, Staropomortsy, Fedoseevtsy, Chasovennye, and probably others who are groups of priestless Old Believers who reject the sacraments (except baptism). They are not even part of the Russian Orthodox Church. The Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR are now back into communion with each other and there is one Old Rite parish under ROCOR in Erie under Bishop Daniel. There seems to be other Old Believers under ROCOR because the new bishop they just consecrated is quite Old Rite in his practices as I've heard.
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2008, 05:42:42 PM »

He reformed a few rituals, other than that he was brutal and deposed for good reason.

The Council which deposed Patriarch Nikon also adopted all of his reforms and anathematized those who would not accept them (the Old Believers). Following his death, the Synod of the Russian Church revoked all the decrees against him, and he was buried with the full honours of a Patriarch. However, it wasn't until 1971 that the anathema against the Old Believers was lifted by the Russian Church.
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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2008, 06:10:46 PM »

I don't think the other churches had to adopt many of his reforms since they were already practicing them.
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2008, 06:12:07 PM »

I don't think the other churches had to adopt many of his reforms since they were already practicing them.
Which other Churches?
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2008, 06:44:51 PM »

I don't think the other churches had to adopt many of his reforms since they were already practicing them.
Which other Churches?

I think he means the Greeks, Romanians, Antiochians, Serbians, etc.
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2008, 06:53:09 PM »

Quote
I think he means the Greeks, Romanians, Antiochians, Serbians, etc.

Yes
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2008, 06:56:16 PM »

I see. At any rate, the Great Synod of Moscow was a local Synod of the Russian Church. No one outside the Russian Church was obliged to adopt any of it's decrees.
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2008, 03:45:39 AM »

Hello Ebor,

I certainly have never heard of any in Montana

Most people have never even heard of the Old Believers, so somehow I am not surprised that you have not heard of every place they live. Here is one source you can read, besides me, that will tell you there are Old Believer groups in many states including, "Montana".

http://blog.oregonlive.com/nwheadlines/2008/01/russian_old_believer_women_for.html

I happen to know the town but will keep that to myself (they want to stay hidden), but I will only say that they are in the Northwest area of Montana. Also, there are now Old Believers in Idaho, but I do not have an online source to show for it. You will just have to take my word for it, or disbelieve me, it is your choice.

One site says that Oregon has between 6 and 7 thousand

Old Believers do not approve of being numbered, so they shy away from such things.

It has to do with the satanic inspired concensus that King David took.

Besides that, most of them also prefer to be as isolated and hidden as possible.

So, do not expect to hear very much about them, unless you know where to look.

In 2005 the Oregon History Project (which is as accountable as any secular source could be) has the number at "nearly 10,000 Old Believers in Oregon." The Old Believers do account for nearly half the population of the city of Woodburn itself.

http://urlite.com/oregon/

The old.orthodoxnews.org info you offer references Morris as the source, who began to publish such things about the Old Believers much earlier (1988) and his reference might even be more dated than that. We should know that Old Believer families are very prolific, having nearly 10 children each, so their numbers grow so fast it is difficult for outsiders to keep track of them all.

I did live near the Oregon Old Believers for a good while and have met many of them, been to many of their places of worship. Just going through town we would meet them all over the place, at the gas station, town stores (some of which they owned) and even sometimes at restaurants (restaurants are normally forbidden to them).

Maybe you remember fatman2012 who posts here and created a Old Believer Wiki? I will soon be posting digital images there of some pure Old Slavonic ancient manuscripts that I was able to acquire while visiting the Old Believers in Oregon. They are on such topics at the Funeral Prayers (including the banners wrapped around the body) and also old lists of Saint Days.

Thank you for your interest in the Old Believers, I think that others should look into them as well.

I would be glad to compare notes with anyone.

Forgive, John




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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2008, 03:46:28 AM »

Thank you for the interesting post.

As for his theological and liturgical reform, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the reform was quite small, in fact.

It is always crucial to obey Christ and "judge what is right" in all things, small or great, for as the Epistle claims, "if we fail in the smallest point, we are guilty of every offense".

Jesus Christ also condemned the Pharisaical attitude which was not concerned about small matters. In modern bibles at Luke 11:42 it goes like this, "...these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

There are of course several places where the Lord Himself explains the importance of small things,
Mt. 12:34 "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful in small things, I will make thee ruler over many: enter thou into the joy of thy Lord"



He tried to make the liturgical language of the Russian Church closer to the language of the Greeks; for example, he insisted that the name of our Lord be pronounced "Іісус" ("EE-EE-SOOS") instead of "Ісус" ("EE-SOOS").

David Scheffel writes, “Everyone is aware of Nikon’s substitution of Iisus for the word Isus (Jesus) and of Nikolai for Nikola (Nicholas).” page 139 of In the shadow of Antichrist.

Nikon changed the spelling of Jesus putting into oblivion the good memory of the proper spelling. The pure old Slavonic word for Jesus is very close to the ancient Arabic “issa” so there is precedence for the old Russian practice. In the Eastern Syriac language the name is spelled similarly to the pure old Slavonic as “ishou”, and it is not wise to overlook any of these. It is only false fear that would cause anyone to change the good long established way. Many seem to forget that it was saintly and especially blessed Greeks who gave the Slavic people their Sacred Language. They were not wrong, neither was the Russian practice for centuries. If it works do not try to fix it, or it will only get worse. What appears as a small thing in one way is actually a reflection of very meaningful aspects of Faith.

He also insisted on the "троeпeрстіe," making the sign of the cross with three fingers - the thumb, the index and the third finger - held together and touching the body, and the remaining two fingers held together and touching the palm.

It was the heretical Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), following in the 5 heresies of the Great Schism, who first taught the heresy that the sign of the cross be made with three fingers extended, he is the source the confusion. Until this time we have ancient Orthodox dogmatic teachings explaining that two fingers were extended. The most ancient icons likewise are a good testimony showing two fingers extended. Also there are Orthodox saints with incorrupt hands in the form of two fingers extended. It was this false teaching pope who sent the Crusaders that sacked Constantinople. The victors always have influence over their captives and many western heresies (like those instigated later by Nikon in Russia) began at this time in Constantinople, the Balkans, Asia Minor, Alexandria and the Middle East. The three fingers, which place the Holy Trinity on the Cross (a great heresy) is merely one departure from Orthodoxy, Russia kept the correct practice of placing the two natures of Christ on the Cross, at least till Nikon.

It cannot be overlooked that Faith and Practice are inseparable. Like water inside a jar, orthodoxy (correct Faith) will leak out and is lost if we break with orthopraxy (correct Practice). We do not have one without the other, it is a delicate balance.

The main reason why Nikon's reforms met such a strong resistance was that after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, there appeared to be a growing consensus among the Russian (or, broader, Eastern Slavic) clergy that now, they, and not the Greeks, were the center of the Orthodox world, the force that was supposed to be leading in defending of the Holy Orthodoxy and not following some weak, degrading, decaying foreign influence.

Yes, until Constantinople's fall they had kept a Greek bishop in Russia, but afterward Russia threw
the Greek bishop in prison for heresy, for his union with the Latin's during the final liturgy. By this time it really had become a big mess in the other Orthodox lands. Russia became The New Jerusalem, the Third Rome and Holy Russia.

Timothy Ware in his book, The Orthodox Church in 1972, says that during the two centuries after the fall of Constantinople there was communion between the Latin's and the Greek's. p.108, see p. 107 also.

Andrey Kurbsy. a prince of the 16th century Russia and defender of Orthodox, is noted for saying that the fall of Constantinople was truly destruction along the lines of the apocalypse, that it was then that, "Satan was loosed from his bonds."

Iosif of Volokolamsk (the Father of Medieval Russia) soon wrote, "Behold, today apostasy is come."

Prince Ivan I said, "Since Constantinople and (its) emperor are no more, we must do what we can. God depends on us, the Russians, to carry on his kingdom. We are his Church and what remains of the Roman and Byzantine Empires."

It is also written that it is marked from the time of the fall of Constantinople that the Church in Russia had complete independence.

After the Turks took over Constantinople the Roman Catholics added incorrect notes to the Greek Pedalion (aka "Rudder" - Canon Law) during the many centuries of the Latin captivity of Orthodoxy. During this time it was forbidden by the Turks to print Christian books in the Balkans. All such materials were sent to Venice, a papal region, to be printed.

So we see how the Old Believers were correct in not accepting Nikon's reforms, as the Greek's had capitulated to the Latin's. This is why the Old Believers are known for keeping the Orthodox Chant, language and so much more that is now lost everywhere else.

Also, we need to realize that within the Eastern Slavic clergy and monastics, there already had been a rift, started by the debates between the so-called "nestyazhateli" (followers of St. Nilus of Sora) and "iosiflyanye" (followers of bishop Iosif of Volotsk). The grassroots opposers of patr. Nikon were closer to the position of "nestyazhateli," while the supporters of Nikon were clearly "iosiflyanye."

This is another important area of study for me over the years. Monastics are not to own anything. So I side with the non-possessors and St. Nilus. He was also a good example to us with regard to mason buildings. After the death of the Tsar's pious wife, Ivan IV went to visit the wilderness community of St. Nilus. By Imperial command a stone monastery was to built for them. When St. Nilus became aware of the plan it was stopped in its tracks and was canceled. Below is an Old Believer sketch of anti-mason St. Nilus. Thank you for reminding me of him, every time a special gladness settles with me.


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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2008, 09:55:54 AM »

Hello Ebor,

I certainly have never heard of any in Montana

Most people have never even heard of the Old Believers, so somehow I am not surprised that you have not heard of every place they live. Here is one source you can read, besides me, that will tell you there are Old Believer groups in many states including, "Montana".

http://blog.oregonlive.com/nwheadlines/2008/01/russian_old_believer_women_for.html

I happen to know the town but will keep that to myself (they want to stay hidden), but I will only say that they are in the Northwest area of Montana. Also, there are now Old Believers in Idaho, but I do not have an online source to show for it. You will just have to take my word for it, or disbelieve me, it is your choice.

Well, I don't know why you'd think you had to put quote marks around the state's name.  It really is Montana, after all.  Wink

Thank you for providing two links to answer my questions and support your claim. They have interesting information on the several Northwestern states and Canadian provinces with some Old Believer inhabitants. It's a good thing that these ladies are able to be a support for others in their group via modern technology what with all the distances involved.   Montanans are pretty tolerant people, so I don't know why you claim to know the town, but won't name it.  There also aren't all that many towns in NW Montana, anyway and it's likely that the neighboring people have some idea, too.   Wink

I do not intend offense to you, but you have made many statements and claims in past posts and have not given supporting information for them though asked many times. Some of your assertions have been shown to be in error upon examination.  On what basis is your word to be taken as accurate, one wonders.  Undecided   The article fom "Oregon Live" is more reliable since it gives names and places and other information.   


Quote

Old Believers do not approve of being numbered, so they shy away from such things.

Can you give a quote from them to support this claim, please? 

And yet you and the article gave numbers and, it occurs to me, the Census and other people have some idea of populations.

I suspect that like many people, the Old Believers would like to just be let alone to live their lives.  Nothing secretive or 'hidden' about that.


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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2008, 12:01:18 PM »

Well, I don't know why you'd think you had to put quote marks around the state's name.  It really is Montana, after all.

It really is a quote from the reference after all, that is why. No winking on my part here.

It's a good thing that these ladies are able to be a support for others in their group via modern technology what with all the distances involved.

That is a matter of opinion, many Old Believer elders would not approve of modern technology at all. Their entire support group likewise is against the more strict Old Believer ways.

I do not intend offense to you, but you have made many statements and claims in past posts and have not given supporting information for them though asked many times.

The Lord says everyone offends, woe to those who start the offenses. I do not have time to read all the posts or questions here. It really gets to be too much sometimes, I have to take a break. Besides, I am sure that I have answered and given support for most if not all the realistic questions. I am not here to argue for arguments sake, only to offer what few notes I have, and see what others think. I believe there is more unsupported claims by others than I, so we each have our beliefs about such things. Not everyone agrees that my statements are unsupported. There is a lot of confusion out there with regard to what is supported or not. I am going in the opposite direction from society and its twisted information, so I am not surprised if others in society disagree with me.

Some of your assertions have been shown to be in error upon examination.

I am sure we all make errors, if we examine ourselves. In the end time will tell who is really remainis in error or not. Forums such as this could never completely settle disagreements between all the people in the world anyway.

On what basis is your word to be taken as accurate, one wonders.

We should accept the word of those seeking only to obey God, unless there is honest and absolute reason to doubt it. Everybody gets at least a few things right. Otherwise some people would have an excuse before God on that dreadful day. The truth is that we all are able to judge between what is right and wrong, and we each are accountable for our choices.

The article fom "Oregon Live" is more reliable since it gives names and places and other information.

I do not see "Oregon Live" as something which is entirely more reliable, they are not exactly an organization which seeks God. Perhaps 80% of their facts are right.

Quote
Old Believers do not approve of being numbered, so they shy away from such things.

Can you give a quote from them to support this claim, please?

Illinois University published a book written by and about Old Believers, the name of the author is Roy Robson. It is a rather well known source on this topic and offers more than enough support. I do not have total recall and cannot give the exact page number, but you could find it without too much trouble. A search online, or at many libraries, will find the book.

And yet you and the article gave numbers and, it occurs to me, the Census and other people have some idea of populations.

People do have devilish ideas from time to time, yes. May we all make a good repentance from such things!

I suspect that like many people, the Old Believers would like to just be let alone to live their lives.  Nothing secretive or 'hidden' about that.

Correct. The more strict Old Believers do avoid modern society, I did not mean that it was for the sake of secrecy. It is for the sake of protection. One small group of Old Believers live on a very isolated island in order to escape this the influences of this wicked generation.

Speaking for myself, I do not want to tolerate any devilish ideas or practices. I am sure we all have a long way to go, some more than others.

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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2008, 12:02:00 PM »

It has to do with the satanic inspired concensus that King David took.
In order for David to have obtained a consensus, he would have to have consulted other people. A census, on the other hand, he could order himself.
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2008, 12:06:36 PM »

It has to do with the satanic inspired concensus that King David took.
In order for David to have obtained a consensus, he would have to have consulted other people. A census, on the other hand, he could order himself.

No kidding, I meant census. I am not able to go back and modify the post now, or I would. Forgive.
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2008, 12:09:48 PM »

^ Of course. No harm done. Yet as an English teacher, I must not refuse the opportunity to define two commonly confused words.
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2008, 12:16:55 PM »

^ Of course. No harm done. Yet as an English teacher, I must not refuse the opportunity to define two commonly confused words.

Thank you for the kind and good correction. I will work to be more careful in the future, somehow I typed extra letters there, the spell check (and my quick proof read) did not catch it.
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2008, 06:35:18 PM »

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It was the heretical Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), following in the 5 heresies of the Great Schism, who first taught the heresy that the sign of the cross be made with three fingers extended, he is the source the confusion. Until this time we have ancient Orthodox dogmatic teachings explaining that two fingers were extended.

All Pope Innocent did in the 12th century is just mention the 3 finger, that doesn't mean he invented it. Besides, the pre-4th century method of making the sign of the cross was just done with the thumb. Therefore, you could say the early Christians were all Monophysites.

Quote
The most ancient icons likewise are a good testimony showing two fingers extended. Also there are Orthodox saints with incorrupt hands in the form of two fingers extended.

Usually a saint is usually giving a blessing in an icon. I have never seen an icon with a saint raising all 3 fingers, making the normal sign of the cross. Saints are always giving the IC XC sign in icons.

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Timothy Ware in his book, The Orthodox Church in 1972, says that during the two centuries after the fall of Constantinople there was communion between the Latin's and the Greek's. p.108, see p. 107 also.
After 1453, the union eventually broke. The Council of Florence Union only lasted a few years, it ended right after the fall.

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The victors always have influence over their captives and many western heresies (like those instigated later by Nikon in Russia) began at this time in Constantinople, the Balkans, Asia Minor, Alexandria and the Middle East. The three fingers, which place the Holy Trinity on the Cross (a great heresy) is merely one departure from Orthodoxy, Russia kept the correct practice of placing the two natures of Christ on the Cross, at least till Nikon.
The only crusade ever to hit Alexandria lasted about 3 days, and the crusaders left after that. Besides, if you make the 2 finger sign of the cross, you still have three fingers left on your hand. Therefore, you too are putting the Holy Trinity on the cross.
 
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2008, 08:31:31 PM »

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Saints are always giving the IC XC sign in icons.

A slight correction: The saints who give the ICXC sign are of clerical rank, i.e. priests or bishops. A male saint who was a layman is not portrayed giving this sign, and female saints are never shown giving this clerical blessing.
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« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2008, 01:39:01 PM »

It's a good thing that these ladies are able to be a support for others in their group via modern technology what with all the distances involved.

That is a matter of opinion, many Old Believer elders would not approve of modern technology at all. Their entire support group likewise is against the more strict Old Believer ways.

Would you please explain why women supporting each other in friendship is "against the more strict" ways?  What "ways" do you mean?  Are there rules against people offering support in person, for example?


Quote
I do not intend offense to you, but you have made many statements and claims in past posts and have not given supporting information for them though asked many times.

The Lord says everyone offends, woe to those who start the offenses. I do not have time to read all the posts or questions here. It really gets to be too much sometimes, I have to take a break. Besides, I am sure that I have answered and given support for most if not all the realistic questions. I am not here to argue for arguments sake, only to offer what few notes I have, and see what others think.

I'm sorry, but no you have not answered many of my questions and requests for explanations which, I assure you, were seriously asked.  Do you mean that asking for examples and defining what you yourself meant in posts is not "realistic"?  You have made many assertions and I and others have asked you to back them up; one example was your statement that Christians should not bathe.  If you wish I can find the thread again to show your words.  What did you mean by "bathe" (hot water? Sea bathing? etc) and on what do you base this idea? (Scripture? Other writings?).   

In other cases you have offered purported quotes to support your statements and it has been found that you altered them to fit your ideas when the original writers did not, in fact, say what you posted.  This is misusing other people's words, "twisting" them to fit your ideas when in reality and truth they do not. Your lengthy "breaks" from posting do not answer other poster's questions nor address "what others think".  Undecided 

Quote
I believe there is more unsupported claims by others than I, so we each have our beliefs about such things. Not everyone agrees that my statements are unsupported. There is a lot of confusion out there with regard to what is supported or not. I am going in the opposite direction from society and its twisted information, so I am not surprised if others in society disagree with me.

Can you give examples of "unsupported claims" by others or cases where some think that your statements are "supported"?  There is no confusion when someone provides links or titles and authors and specific information as to where documentation may be found which can be checked by others. While the provided information may or may not, in fact, support the point, it is still an attempt at doing so properly.  One may convince another that one's idea is correct in this way and not resort to demanding that one's word be accepted iwithout question as the Only Needed Authority(tm).

Quote
Some of your assertions have been shown to be in error upon examination.

I am sure we all make errors, if we examine ourselves. In the end time will tell who is really remainis in error or not. Forums such as this could never completely settle disagreements between all the people in the world anyway.

I was not writing about a nebulous "we" but about things that you in particular have written here and on your site that are factual errors, that are not true. The purpose of this forum is not to "completely settle disagreements" I don't think.  But there can be attempts at accurate and truthful information.  When a poster seems to expect others to accept his/her unfounded unsupported assertions as truth on her/his own authority, why should this be done without question?  The Bereans searched the scriptures to find out if what St. Paul said was true.  With all due respect, I submit that you are no St. Paul; why should anyone accept your dictates as authoritative, please? 

Quote
On what basis is your word to be taken as accurate, one wonders.

We should accept the word of those seeking only to obey God, unless there is honest and absolute reason to doubt it.

While you say that you are seeking to obey God, why should any here accept that you know more about what God wants us to do then others, please?


Quote
The article fom "Oregon Live" is more reliable since it gives names and places and other information.

I do not see "Oregon Live" as something which is entirely more reliable, they are not exactly an organization which seeks God. Perhaps 80% of their facts are right.

One wonders just how you personally know whether the people who put out "Oregon Live" seek God (it's people who do that, not organizations, it seems to me)?  80% of their facts are right?  How do you know what the percentage is?  In this case they *are* more reliable then your post because they give real information that could be checked, not vague assertions.   

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Quote
Old Believers do not approve of being numbered, so they shy away from such things.

Can you give a quote from them to support this claim, please?

Illinois University published a book written by and about Old Believers, the name of the author is Roy Robson. It is a rather well known source on this topic and offers more than enough support. I do not have total recall and cannot give the exact page number, but you could find it without too much trouble. A search on-line, or at many libraries, will find the book.

Thank you for the author's name.  Total recall is hardly needed.  A very quick search came up with Old Believers in Modern Russia by Roy R.Robson, 1995 Northern Illinois University Press  ISBN-13: 9780875809984 ISBN: 0875809987 .  It was easy to find out that there really is such a book.  There are even some copies available through used book sites.   Why would you expect others do look for things, though, when you could be helpful in supporting your arguments by providing documentation yourself please?

Ebor
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