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Author Topic: Are the RCC and EOC really close to reunification?  (Read 5213 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« on: November 07, 2010, 12:28:35 PM »

I have heard a lot of talk about such things during my time on this forum, but I personally have not seen nor heard anything which really makes me think it is so. I am interested, however, what everyone else thinks concerning this topic and why they think as they do.
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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2010, 12:51:10 PM »

My honest opinion? I think it's delusion to think that we are close to reunion. We believe that we confess the Orthodox Faith and that Rome does not. If she chooses to confess the Orthodox Faith once again, we will be able to reunite. Until that happens, I am not optimistic at all about reunion.

However, I will say that I am glad to see Rome slowly returning to her Orthodox roots by attempting to restore some semblance of liturgical order to your church after the "spirit of Vatican II" swept through. I would love to see Rome become Orthodox once again.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2010, 01:48:07 PM »

To me, on the various religious forums I've perused, it generally seems as if the Catholics are more optimistic about the "closeness" of a reunification than the Orthodox are, who seem more cautious.
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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2010, 02:33:38 PM »

Either way I'm glad to see dialog.
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2010, 02:54:29 PM »

http://www.milosierdzie.pl/multimedia/20090906.php
http://www.milosierdzie.pl/multimedia/20090906.php
http://www.milosierdzie.pl/multimedia/20090906.php
http://www.milosierdzie.pl/multimedia/20090906.php
http://www.milosierdzie.pl/multimedia/20090906.php
http://www.milosierdzie.pl/multimedia/20090906.php
http://www.milosierdzie.pl/multimedia/20090906.php
Stashko, these are pictures of your bishops at the Divine Mercy shrine in Kraków!





Does anyone know who this bishop is?
And this one?
and this one?
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2010, 03:50:28 PM »

I would agree with a number of posters thus far. I don't think reunification* will happen soon. Catholics seem more optimistic than Orthodox, as NucleicAcid said. Actually I think that's part of the whole problem, on the Catholic side we have a sizable faction who are too optimistic, while on the Orthodox side we have a sizable faction that are too pessimistic. And every time those particular Orthodox hear those particular Catholics, it just reaffirms their "over my dead body!" stance regarding reunification. At the same time, I find what Shlomlokh said to be valuable as well.


*And I think there has to be a better way of phrasing things, though I admit that I don't have an alternative way of putting it at the moment,
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2010, 04:26:04 PM »

My honest opinion? I think it's delusion to think that we are close to reunion. We believe that we confess the Orthodox Faith and that Rome does not. If she chooses to confess the Orthodox Faith once again, we will be able to reunite. Until that happens, I am not optimistic at all about reunion.

However, I will say that I am glad to see Rome slowly returning to her Orthodox roots by attempting to restore some semblance of liturgical order to your church after the "spirit of Vatican II" swept through. I would love to see Rome become Orthodox once again.

In Christ,
Andrew
Amen!
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2010, 04:28:20 PM »

As has already been said, it is generally the catholics who are trumpeting the ideas of reunion.  Their priests, bishops and laity go around to major news media and say that there is nothing which separates us.  Then the Orthodox priests, bishops and laity are interviewed, though rarely, and their response to reunion is a resounding "huh?  We're reunited? When did that happen?"  We have to remember that the media is largely ignorant of the Orthodox church's existence, say nothing for its history, theology, etc. so we should not be surprised when the media has an overwhelmingly one-sided view of what is going on in these dialogues.
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2010, 04:30:07 PM »

http://www.milosierdzie.pl/multimedia/20090906.php

Only one "icon" in this huge Catholic Church?  With Vatican II, not only was the liturgy truncated and reduced, but also the presence of ecclesiastic art.  Notice all the white in the background. 
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2010, 04:39:20 PM »


Since none of them is vested, what point are you trying to make?
Does anyone know who this bishop is?
What is so good in an autocratic Tsar or Party Secretary and bad in the Bishop of Rome?

His Most Orthodox Imperial Majesty, "by the Grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias, Grand Duke of Finland and King/Tsar of Poland, and so forth..." confessed the Orthodox Faith. The bishop in the Vatican falls under the anathemas of the Ecumenical Councils. Bishop Siluan doesn't have the primacy, but otherwise is fine.  As for party secretarys:
And this one?
promoter of Islam

a true son of Lech and father of the Vatican.
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2010, 04:47:58 PM »

http://www.milosierdzie.pl/multimedia/20090906.php

Only one "icon" in this huge Catholic Church?  With Vatican II, not only was the liturgy truncated and reduced, but also the presence of ecclesiastic art.  Notice all the white in the background.  

Yes, the spirit of iconoclasm is one substantive thing that definitely will keep us separate. It reminds me of protestant churches and churches from the Iconoclastic period:





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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2010, 04:51:28 PM »


It is important to know that the Orthodox bishops were not there at the shrine to pay homage to the cult of the Divine Mercy.

They were there because they were attending an International Conference "People and Religion."
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2010, 07:05:35 PM »

cult of the Divine Mercy.
I didn't know celebrating God's mercy made one in a cult.
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2010, 07:07:35 PM »

cult of the Divine Mercy.
I didn't know celebrating God's mercy made one in a cult.

That's actually an official Catholic term when it comes to devotions, either to saints or apparitions/visions.  Fr. Ambrose is not using it as a derogatory term.
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2010, 07:14:52 PM »

cult of the Divine Mercy.
I didn't know celebrating God's mercy made one in a cult.

That's actually an official Catholic term when it comes to devotions, either to saints or apparitions/visions.  Fr. Ambrose is not using it as a derogatory term.
That's weird. I've never heard that word used in that way before. Is it used much anymore or is it a more archaic term?
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2010, 07:36:01 PM »

cult of the Divine Mercy.
I didn't know celebrating God's mercy made one in a cult.

That's actually an official Catholic term when it comes to devotions, either to saints or apparitions/visions.  Fr. Ambrose is not using it as a derogatory term.
That's weird. I've never heard that word used in that way before. Is it used much anymore or is it a more archaic term?

CCC 1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession. Paul VI, MF 56

CCC 1566 "It is in the Eucharistic cult or in the Eucharistic assembly of the faithful (synaxis) that they exercise in a supreme degree their sacred office; there, acting in the person of Christ and proclaiming his mystery, they unite the votive offerings of the faithful to the sacrifice of Christ their head, and in the sacrifice of the Mass they make present again and apply, until the coming of the Lord, the unique sacrifice of the New Testament, that namely of Christ offering himself once for all a spotless victim to the Father." Lumen Gentium 28; cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 11:26 From this unique sacrifice their whole priestly ministry draws its strength.
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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2010, 11:09:53 PM »

*places foot in mouth*

Sorry for the presumption, Fr. Ambrose. I was not previously familiar with that terminology.
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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2010, 11:46:36 PM »

*places foot in mouth*

Sorry for the presumption, Fr. Ambrose. I was not previously familiar with that terminology.

It happens. Words pick up meanings that confuse things.  I once refered to the primate of Lebanon, and a friend asked me why I was comparing him to a monkey.
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« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2010, 12:40:49 AM »

*places foot in mouth*

Sorry for the presumption, Fr. Ambrose. I was not previously familiar with that terminology.

Wyatt, I don't know really what you are referring.... so no problem.   laugh

---------

Just realised you are talking about the word "cult."  It is not always a derogatory word but it can refer to the cult of a Saint or the cult of a particular devotion.  Probably only those of us who are old and senile still use the word with that positive meaning.   laugh

----------
And now I've seen that Schultz has already explained.... see, I said I was senile!   laugh
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« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2010, 01:47:04 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."

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« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2010, 01:50:43 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."
I always liked that prayer in the mass, even back in my Lutheran days.
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« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2010, 01:54:33 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."
I always liked that prayer in the mass, even back in my Lutheran days.
"Lord, I am not worthy to recieve you, but only say the words and I shall be healed." -English translation of Novus Ordo
Soon to be more accurately translated as:
"Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and I shall be healed."
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« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2010, 02:14:27 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
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« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2010, 02:43:57 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?
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« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2010, 02:45:50 PM »

Turns out a variant of this is also found in this pre-communion prayer attributed to St. John Chrysostom.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/before.html

Quote
O Lord my God, I know that I am not worthy nor sufficient that thou shouldest enter under my roof into the habitation of my soul, for it is all deserted and in ruins, and thou hast not a fitting place in me to lay thy head. But as from the heights of thy glory thou didst humble thyself, so now bear me in my humility; as thou didst deign to lie in a manger in a cave, so deign now also to come into the manger of my mute soul and corrupt body. As thou didst not refrain from entering into the house of Simon the leper, or shrink from eating there with sinners, so also vouchsafe to enter the house of my poor soul, all leprous and full of sin. Thou didst not reject the sinful woman who ventured to draw near to touch thee, so also have pity on me, a sinner, approaching to touch thee. And grant that I may partake of thine All-holy Body and Precious Blood for the sanctification, enlightenment and strengthening of my weak soul and body; for the relief from the burden of my many sins; for my preservation against all the snares of the devil; for victory over all my sinful and evil habits; for the mortification of my passions; for obedience to thy Commandments; for growth in thy divine Grace and for the inheritance of thy Kingdom. For it is not with careless heart that I approach thee, O Christ my God, but I come trusting in thine infinite goodness, and fearing lest I may be drawn afar from thee and become the prey of the wolf of souls. Wherefore I pray thee, O Master, who alone art holy, that thou wouldest sanctify my soul and body, my mind and heart and reins, and renew me entirely. Implant in my members the fear of thee, be thou my helper and guide, directing my life in the paths of peace, and make me worthy to stand at thy right hand with thy Saints; through the prayers and intercessions of thine immaculate Mother, of thy Bodiless Servitors, of the immaculate Powers, and of all the Saints who from all ages have been well-pleasing unto thee. Amen.
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2010, 03:05:42 PM »

What about the lifting of the excommunications in 1964 by the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople? 
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« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2010, 03:15:01 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2010, 03:16:11 PM »

What about the lifting of the excommunications in 1964 by the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople? 

Symbolic.  It has been too long that we've been out of communion to simply turn things around that fast.  The dialogue must occur.
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2010, 03:24:17 PM »

What about the lifting of the excommunications in 1964 by the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople? 

It's a curious thing, what allegedly happened in 1054. Cardinal Humbert's papal bull had no effect, since it was invalid--Pope Leo IX was dead and everyone knew it. Besides, it only applied to the Patriarch of Constantinople and his clergy, not the Emperor or the other Patriarchates and clergy in other lands. It was a symbolic act. Patriarch Michael Cerularius' excommunication was, I think, just against the Latin ambassadors, and the Latin churches in the Imperial City were closed for a time. The events of 1054 were not even remembered in 1098 when the Constantinopolitan Church discussed issues dealing with Rome. Antioch remained in communion with Rome until 1100 when the Crusaders kicked out the lawful Patriarch and put a Latin in his place. Jerusalem held on for a little longer until the Latin Patriarchs lost the goodwill of the Greek clergy by removing them and Latinizing.
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« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2010, 03:56:13 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
Source?
Further, we can be wounded, in the way some one is emotionally wounded, without being substantially lacking in our wholeness as the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2010, 03:57:48 PM »

Turns out a variant of this is also found in this pre-communion prayer attributed to St. John Chrysostom.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/before.html

Quote
O Lord my God, I know that I am not worthy nor sufficient that thou shouldest enter under my roof into the habitation of my soul, for it is all deserted and in ruins, and thou hast not a fitting place in me to lay thy head. But as from the heights of thy glory thou didst humble thyself, so now bear me in my humility; as thou didst deign to lie in a manger in a cave, so deign now also to come into the manger of my mute soul and corrupt body. As thou didst not refrain from entering into the house of Simon the leper, or shrink from eating there with sinners, so also vouchsafe to enter the house of my poor soul, all leprous and full of sin. Thou didst not reject the sinful woman who ventured to draw near to touch thee, so also have pity on me, a sinner, approaching to touch thee. And grant that I may partake of thine All-holy Body and Precious Blood for the sanctification, enlightenment and strengthening of my weak soul and body; for the relief from the burden of my many sins; for my preservation against all the snares of the devil; for victory over all my sinful and evil habits; for the mortification of my passions; for obedience to thy Commandments; for growth in thy divine Grace and for the inheritance of thy Kingdom. For it is not with careless heart that I approach thee, O Christ my God, but I come trusting in thine infinite goodness, and fearing lest I may be drawn afar from thee and become the prey of the wolf of souls. Wherefore I pray thee, O Master, who alone art holy, that thou wouldest sanctify my soul and body, my mind and heart and reins, and renew me entirely. Implant in my members the fear of thee, be thou my helper and guide, directing my life in the paths of peace, and make me worthy to stand at thy right hand with thy Saints; through the prayers and intercessions of thine immaculate Mother, of thy Bodiless Servitors, of the immaculate Powers, and of all the Saints who from all ages have been well-pleasing unto thee. Amen.

Beautiful!
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« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2010, 04:02:24 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
Source?
Further, we can be wounded, in the way some one is emotionally wounded, without being substantially lacking in our wholeness as the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

When the Catholic Church deals with sin, it very rarely spends a whole lot of time on emotions.

The document is one that Archbishop Levada put out from the CDF but I forget the name of it.  It is pretty recent but I don't know how to get you to it without going and getting it myself and that will take a while.  I hate to say it by the Forum here is low on my To Do list in terms of priority.  Have time to talk while waiting for other things to load on a slow machine but not a lot of time to search...be patient please.
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« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2010, 04:07:54 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
Source?
Further, we can be wounded, in the way some one is emotionally wounded, without being substantially lacking in our wholeness as the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

When the Catholic Church deals with sin, it very rarely spends a whole lot of time on emotions.

The document is one that Archbishop Levada put out from the CDF but I forget the name of it.  It is pretty recent but I don't know how to get you to it without going and getting it myself and that will take a while.  I hate to say it by the Forum here is low on my To Do list in terms of priority.  Have time to talk while waiting for other things to load on a slow machine but not a lot of time to search...be patient please.
First, we do in fact need to get that reference so that we can interparate it in context. Second, a document from the CDF posses a lower level of authority than does a Papal Encyclical. For this reason, your statement must be interparated through the lens of Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
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« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2010, 05:12:05 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
Source?
Further, we can be wounded, in the way some one is emotionally wounded, without being substantially lacking in our wholeness as the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

When the Catholic Church deals with sin, it very rarely spends a whole lot of time on emotions.

The document is one that Archbishop Levada put out from the CDF but I forget the name of it.  It is pretty recent but I don't know how to get you to it without going and getting it myself and that will take a while.  I hate to say it by the Forum here is low on my To Do list in terms of priority.  Have time to talk while waiting for other things to load on a slow machine but not a lot of time to search...be patient please.
First, we do in fact need to get that reference so that we can interparate it in context. Second, a document from the CDF posses a lower level of authority than does a Papal Encyclical. For this reason, your statement must be interparated through the lens of Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html

Actually as laymen, given the priority that Orthodox-Catholic relations have in the Church today, I would say that ANY interpretation at all is well above our pay-grade.
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« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2010, 05:18:19 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
Have to play that with somebody else. Since the Vatican is the one in schism-heresy actually-that document doesn't lead anywhere.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2010, 05:37:50 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
Have to play that with somebody else. Since the Vatican is the one in schism-heresy actually-that document doesn't lead anywhere.

Not true.  And no real need to take that position as long as our being out of communion is realized as NOT dividing the Body. 

As long as we have not sundered the truth of revelation in our separateness, then we have not divided the Body.

And as long as we have hierarchs willing to explore whether or not we have truly sundered the truth of revelation, you ought not be so willing to make the assertion that we have.

Mary
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« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2010, 06:00:06 PM »

I don't know how "close" we are to reunification, but Ecumenical prayer services such as the ones held between the GOA and RCC Cathedrals in Atlanta, and the Ecumenical prayer service to commemorate the artificial famine in Ukraine that will occur at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC this month make me hopeful that reunification will be soon.

Articles such as this give me hope.

As others have said, with God, all things are possible.
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« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2010, 06:20:13 PM »

/\  Most of the things quoted are things which were said by Oriental Orthodox bishops but it was pleasing to see an Antiochian Orthodox bishop charitably drawing the attention of the Synod to the major question which needs resolving for the sake of unity.

"Lebanese Greek Orthodox Metropolitan George Khodr also told the synod
that the current role of the bishop of Rome, the pope, is problematic for
the Eastern Christian churches, who believe the church of Christ is constituted
locally first of all with the faithful gathered around their bishop. To extend
a bishop's authority universally doesn't make sense from the point of view
of the history and experience of the East, he said."

http://www.uscatholic.org/news/2010/10/ecumenical-delegates-say-all-christians-looking-synod-hope

It is pleasing to see our Antiochian brethren expressing the same belief about "universal authority" as Metropolitan Hilarion and the Russian Orthodox Church has been expressing for quite a few years in the ecumenical dialogue with Rome.
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« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2010, 06:24:02 PM »

I don't know how "close" we are to reunification, but Ecumenical prayer services such as the ones held between the GOA and RCC Cathedrals in Atlanta, and the Ecumenical prayer service to commemorate the artificial famine in Ukraine that will occur at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC this month make me hopeful that reunification will be soon.

Articles such as this give me hope.

As others have said, with God, all things are possible.

Very cool. Thank you for sharing.
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« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2010, 06:31:28 PM »

/\  Most of the things quoted are things which were said by Oriental Orthodox bishops but it was pleasing to see an Antiochian Orthodox bishop charitably drawing the attention of the Synod to the major question which needs resolving for the sake of unity.

"Lebanese Greek Orthodox Metropolitan George Khodr also told the synod
that the current role of the bishop of Rome, the pope, is problematic for
the Eastern Christian churches, who believe the church of Christ is constituted
locally first of all with the faithful gathered around their bishop. To extend
a bishop's authority universally doesn't make sense from the point of view
of the history and experience of the East, he said."

http://www.uscatholic.org/news/2010/10/ecumenical-delegates-say-all-christians-looking-synod-hope

It is pleasing to see our Antiochian brethren expressing the same belief about "universal authority" as Metropolitan Hilarion and the Russian Orthodox Church has been expressing for quite a few years in the ecumenical dialogue with Rome.

I had the pleasure of speaking with Met. George years ago, mostly about the reunion of the OO and EO (which he supporrted, stating that what was really holding it back was fear of the OO being swallowed by the EO in Syria, and fear of the EO being swallowed by the OO in Egypt).
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2010, 06:35:17 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
Have to play that with somebody else. Since the Vatican is the one in schism-heresy actually-that document doesn't lead anywhere.

Not true.  And no real need to take that position as long as our being out of communion is realized as NOT dividing the Body. 

As long as we have not sundered the truth of revelation in our separateness, then we have not divided the Body.

And as long as we have hierarchs willing to explore whether or not we have truly sundered the truth of revelation, you ought not be so willing to make the assertion that we have.
You cannot approach the Chalice of any of the Orthodox bishops in the diptychs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. That is not an assertion, it is a fact.

Of course you haven't divided the Body. No heresy ever has.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2010, 07:08:42 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
Have to play that with somebody else. Since the Vatican is the one in schism-heresy actually-that document doesn't lead anywhere.
How can a City-State be in shcism and heresy? Makes no sense. Anyway, The Catholic Church (the Church in communion with Rome) is in neither heresy nor schism. That would be impossible, given the fact that it was established by our Lord Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2010, 07:50:21 PM »


Of course you haven't divided the Body. No heresy ever has.

Dear Brother Catholic,

There are no heresies taught by my Church.  None.  So I agree with you fully.  In fact the worst of the heresies that we were required to struggle with over the centuries came to us full blown from the east.

In Christ,

M.
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« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2010, 08:18:21 PM »

From my human perspective, I would say that we are no where near the possibility of finding ourselves in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. There are still too many doctrinal differences, and far far far too many prejudices. I hope for reunion eventually, but I see it not in this world, but in the next.

That being said, our God is the God of miracles, and if he wills to heal the schism, he can.

"Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."



And in your estimation, what are the doctrinal differences worthy of the sin of schism?

M.
Well, since the Catholic Church is not in schism, what are  you talking about?

Have to play that with somebody else.  We have a Vatican document that says that we are both wounded by schism, so I intend to follow that document where it leads.
Have to play that with somebody else. Since the Vatican is the one in schism-heresy actually-that document doesn't lead anywhere.
How can a City-State be in shcism and heresy?

Quote
Originally in Roman law, an interlocutory edict of the praetor, especially in matter affecting the right of possession; it still preserves this meaning in both Roman and canon law. In present ecelesiastical use the word denotes, in general, a prohibition. In addition to the definite meaning it has when referring to the object of this article, the term is often loosely employed in a wider and rather untechnical sense. We speak of a priest, a church, or a practice of devotion being interdicted, to denote a suspended priest, one who either by canon law or by the stricture of his ordinary is forbidden to exercise his sacerdotal functions, a church building that has been secularized, or one in which Divine service is temporarily suspended, because the edifice has incurred "pollution" or lost its consecration, finally, extraordinary practices of devotion are said to be interdicted. But, strictly speaking, interdict is applied only to persons and churches affected by the penal measure or censure called "interdict", and it is exclusively in this sense of the word that the subject is treated here. After explaining its nature and effects we shall mention the interdicts in force by common canonical law.

First, interdicts are either local or personal; the former affect territories or sacred buildings directly, and persons indirectly; the latter directly affect persons. Canonical authors add a third kind, the mixed interdict, which affects directly and immediately both persons and places; if, for instance, the interdict is issued against a town and its inhabitants, the latter are subject to it, even when they are outside of the town (arg. cap. xvi, "De sent. excomm." in VI). Local interdicts, like personal interdicts, may be general or particular. A general local interdict is one affecting a whole territory, district, town, etc., and this was the ordinary interdict of the Middle Ages; a particular local interdict is one affecting, for example, a particular church. A general personal interdict is one falling on a given body or group of people as a class, e.g. on a chapter, the clergy or people of a town, of a community; a particular personal interdict is one affecting certain individuals as such, for instance, a given bishop, a given cleric. Finally, the interdict is total if the prohibition extends to all the sacred things mentioned above; otherwise it is called partial. A special kind of partial interdict is that which forbids one to enter a church, interdictum ab ingressu ecclesiae mentioned by certain texts....the interdict recently (1909) placed by Pius X on the town of Adria for fifteen days was a punishment...A general local interdict is — for a whole population, town, province, or region — the almost complete suspension of the liturgical and sacramental Christian life. Examples of it exist as early as the ninth century, under the name of excommunication (see in particular the Council of Limoges of 1031). Innocent III gave this measure the name of interdict and made vigorous use of it. It will suffice to recall the interdict imposed in 1200 on the Kingdom of France, when Philip II Augustus repudiated Ingeburga to marry Agnes of Meran; and that on the Kingdom of England in 1208, to support the election of Stephen Langton to the See of Canterbury against John Lackland, which lasted till the submission of that king in 1213. It was a dangerous weapon, but its severity was mitigated little by little, and at the same time it was less frequently employed. The last example of a general interdict launched by the pope against a whole region seems to have been that imposed by Paul V in 1606 on the territory of Venice, it was raised in the following year. A quite recent example of a general, local, and personal interdict, but of a purely penal nature, is the interdict placed by Pius X on the town and suburbs of Adria in Northern Italy, by decree of the Sacred Congregation of the Consistory, on 30 September, 1909, to punish the population of Adria for a sacrilegious attack made on the bishop, Mgr. Boggiani, in order to prevent him from transferring his residence to Rovigo...It was recalled that the violation of this interdict constitutes a mortal sin for all and imposed an irregularity on clerics (Acta Ap. Sedis, 15 Oct., 1909, p. 765).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08073a.htm

Quote
Makes no sense.
Much the Vatican comes up with doesn't. Here's an interesting example:
Quote
Excommunications specially reserved to the pope-These are twelve in number and are imposed upon the following persons..."All those, of no matter what state, rank, or condition, who appeal from the ordinances or mandates of the reigning Roman pontiff to a future ecumenical council, and all who have given aid, counsel, or countenance to this appeal." The appeal from the commands of the pope to a future ecumenical council, not only implies the superiority of the council over the pontiff, but is pre-eminently an act of injurious disobedience to the Head of the Church. Were this appeal efficacious it would render all church government impossible, unless it be accepted that the normal state of the Church is a general council in perpetual session, or at least meeting at short intervals. This extreme Gallicanism is justly punishable with excommunication. The penalty is visited upon all those who have influenced such act of appeal, either by aid, counsel, or support. This excommunication, however, is to be strictly interpreted; it would not be incurred in consequence of an appeal made to a future pope, the Holy See being vacant, or to a general council actually assembled.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Quote
Anyway, The Catholic Church (the Church in communion with Rome) is in neither heresy nor schism.

You are right: those in communion with Bishop Siluan of Rome and hence SS. Peter and Paul, Linus, Clement, etc. are neither in heresy nor in schism.

Quote
That would be impossible, given the fact that it was established by our Lord Jesus Christ.
As are the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, etc. (the ones in the Orthodox diptychs of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church), Jerusalem being the only one founed by Him directly according to the Flesh as well as according to the Spirit. You are welcome to your communion with Pope Honorius I et alia.
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« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2010, 08:37:26 PM »


Of course you haven't divided the Body. No heresy ever has.

Dear Brother Catholic,

There are no heresies taught by my Church.

Which ecclesiastical organization would that be?

Quote
  None.  So I agree with you fully.

If that were true, you would be under the omophorion of a bishop in the Orthodox diptychs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Since you are not, that cannot be true.

Quote
  In fact the worst of the heresies that we were required to struggle with over the centuries came to us full blown from the east.
Ultramontanism came like a blow hard hurricane strength, with swords, from the West. As for those which came from the East, like Arianism, we didn't have to struggle with them for centuries (Arianism was dead in the East in 381, killed by St. Athanasius, who came from the East, and the Fathers who wrote the Creed, nearly exclusively a project of the East) as they died out within a century (Nestorianism being a rare exception, and it had to go far East to survive), whereas they found fertile ground to florish in the West (living on in the far West of Spain, homeland of the filioque, another heresy).

Christianity came from the East, founded in Jerusalem, not Rome, revealed in Greek and Aramaic, not Latin.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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