Author Topic: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.  (Read 4438 times)

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Offline stashko

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Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« on: November 05, 2010, 01:59:47 PM »
Edit: Split off from Roman Catholic Churches thread.  - Schultz.

Iv Been to this Church ,,,,Some thing's I Liked About it ..A catholic friend took me there to see it...
Some of the More Orthodox Mosaics I Liked ..The Main Mosaic Over the Altar ,Didn't like at all....
The crypt church below with the little Altars ,And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Not really Impressed....

Some of the churches I have been to in the D.C. area.

The National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception:



I used to serve Mass here about a decade ago and the sanctuary has never looked this pretty.  Methinks the photographer played with the light both before and after taking the picture. ;)

It's usually a dull gray color all the time.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 04:08:35 PM by Schultz »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2010, 02:40:32 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2010, 02:48:20 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D

Offline Papist

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2010, 02:50:55 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Don't worry about it. He likes to make stuff up.
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 02:51:28 PM »
.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 02:52:01 PM by Azurestone »

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Offline Papist

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 02:52:11 PM »
^ Awwww. I can't see the picture.  :-[
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 02:52:52 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.

Offline Papist

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 02:53:30 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.
Seriously dude, in this case you don't want to go down the rabbit hole.
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2010, 02:55:53 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.
Seriously dude, in this case you don't want to go down the rabbit hole.
First they say our apparitions are really demons. Now they are saying we worship rather than venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary. Oh yeah, I almost forgot that we worship a false trinity rather than the actual Holy Trinity. Good grief.  >:(

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2010, 02:56:23 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.

stashko's anti-Catholicism is nothing new, nor is it representative of most Orthodox on here, though I agree with you that some people do have a double standard when it comes to Mary, purgatory, communion, etc.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 02:56:59 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Schultz

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2010, 02:57:21 PM »
What Asteriktos said.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 02:58:24 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.

stashko's anti-Catholicism is nothing new, nor is it representative of most Orthodox on here, though I agree with you that some people do have a double standard when it comes to Mary, purgatory, communion, etc.
The fact that the vast majority of EO remain silent when such things are said about RCs rather than speaking up and chastising them for such comments speaks much louder than words ever could.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 03:01:46 PM »
Fwiw, I will try to be more proactive in the future...

Offline Papist

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 03:09:49 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.

stashko's anti-Catholicism is nothing new, nor is it representative of most Orthodox on here, though I agree with you that some people do have a double standard when it comes to Mary, purgatory, communion, etc.
The fact that the vast majority of EO remain silent when such things are said about RCs rather than speaking up and chastising them for such comments speaks much louder than words ever could.
Wyatt,
Stashko has been on this forum for a while. He has been rebuked in the past by his fellow EOs. I think at this point, most are just worn out with his comments and are unwilling to continue to rebuke him. No one really takes his words all that seriously. I think I am one of the only people here who is silly enough to occassionally respond to his posts. Like I said, it's just not worth going down that rabbit hole.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 03:10:14 PM by Papist »
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Offline AMM

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 03:12:57 PM »

Offline Aindriú

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Offline Schultz

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2010, 03:23:56 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.

stashko's anti-Catholicism is nothing new, nor is it representative of most Orthodox on here, though I agree with you that some people do have a double standard when it comes to Mary, purgatory, communion, etc.
The fact that the vast majority of EO remain silent when such things are said about RCs rather than speaking up and chastising them for such comments speaks much louder than words ever could.

As Papist said, we're used to stashko's outbursts and, frankly, he's allowed to have them.  Just like you're allowed to rebut them if you choose to do so.  Just know that we've been over this time and time again; you're not going to change his mind and he's not going to change yours.

Secondly, if you're going to stick around here, you need to grow a thicker skin.  Why do you care so much about what a faceless internet user thinks about your religion?  If your faith is that weak that it's scuttled by comments made by some anonymous person via a post on an internet messageboard, you perhaps need to not argue religion on the internet.  I say this as someone who has seen way too many people leave their respective churches because of something someone said on the internet.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Papist

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2010, 03:26:52 PM »
^ Adding to what Shultz said, There are many great Eastern Orthodox Christians on this board. And while they may not necessarily agree with everything that we as Catholics believe, they are very sensitive to our presence here and respectful in their dialogue. Shultz and HandmaidofGod are two that pop to mind right now, but there are plenty others.
Wyatt, I think the reason that it appears like most are anti-Catholic, is that the ones who are anti-Catholic (I'm not going to bring up names, but you know who they are) are the loudest.
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Offline Cymbyz

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2010, 03:59:06 PM »
There have been cases of alleged Mariolatry in the RC Church in the past.  When Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani was in charge of the Holy Office (n.k.a. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith), one of his great concerns was some of the Mariological practices being carried on in Latin America.  And he was far from being theologically liberal.

If one is to discuss Catholic veneration of the BVM seriously, I should think it would behoove one to study the whole history of Catholic Mariology.  One's opinion might not change, but it would, at least, be better informed.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2010, 04:02:18 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.

stashko's anti-Catholicism is nothing new, nor is it representative of most Orthodox on here, though I agree with you that some people do have a double standard when it comes to Mary, purgatory, communion, etc.
The fact that the vast majority of EO remain silent when such things are said about RCs rather than speaking up and chastising them for such comments speaks much louder than words ever could.

"Instruct a fool and he will hate you," says the Holy King Solomon. "Do not cast your pearls before swine," says the Lord. Not everything needs to be dignified with a response.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2010, 04:05:26 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.
Seriously dude, in this case you don't want to go down the rabbit hole.
First they say our apparitions are really demons. Now they are saying we worship rather than venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary. Oh yeah, I almost forgot that we worship a false trinity rather than the actual Holy Trinity. Good grief.  >:(

Who is this "they," and what do "they" have to do with the creation and (possible) point of this thread?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2010, 04:07:44 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.
Seriously dude, in this case you don't want to go down the rabbit hole.
First they say our apparitions are really demons. Now they are saying we worship rather than venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary. Oh yeah, I almost forgot that we worship a false trinity rather than the actual Holy Trinity. Good grief.  >:(

Who is this "they," and what do "they" have to do with the creation and (possible) point of this thread?


FYI, I split this thread off from the Roman Catholic Churches thread because I am trying to keep that thread as focused as possible.  This is a tangent started by stashko that would totally derail an otherwise edifying thread.

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Offline stashko

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2010, 04:18:50 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2010, 04:20:23 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

Guys he has a point. Look at his profile pic. He worships Mary, too.   ;D
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 04:20:38 PM by Azurestone »

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Offline Schultz

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2010, 04:22:58 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

Sounds like a description of most Orthodox churches I've visited, only there are also images of the saints everywhere.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2010, 04:25:02 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

Sounds like a description of most Orthodox churches I've visited, only there are also images of the saints everywhere.
We have images of Saints too. I still don't get what the issue is.

Offline Cymbyz

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2010, 04:27:27 PM »
Well, I do know of one Catholic priest (probably a theological liberal) who called the National Shrine "that pagan temple."

What the average, relatively uneducated Protestant would think about seeing that church--let alone a fully-iconographed Orthodox temple--isn't really relevant.

BTW, I visited the National Shrine when I was in college and still a Presbyterian.  It is beautiful, by comparison with all the Brutalist churches Roman Catholics have built in recent years.  Of course, I didn't think favorably about the theology behind their iconography, but I didn't come away horrified, either, and I couldn't deny the beauty.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2010, 04:33:54 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

Sounds like a description of most Orthodox churches I've visited, only there are also images of the saints everywhere.
We have images of Saints too. I still don't get what the issue is.

I was referring mostly to the Basilica of the IC.  Of course, I know that there are images of saints in Catholic churches worldwide...at least those that weren't wreckovated. :)
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline stashko

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2010, 04:45:55 PM »
Very few  Orthodox Ikona's  show the Blessed Theotokos by Herself ...Christs is the center of attention for us  And the Blessed Theotokos Points to Christ ,Do what He Tells You......




And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

Guys he has a point. Look at his profile pic. He worships Mary, too.   ;D
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 05:02:02 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2010, 04:48:16 PM »
Center? But she's so much BIGGER!




Very few  Orthodox Ikona's  show the Blessed Theotokos by Herself ...Christs is the center of attention for us  And Theotokos Points to Him ,Do what He Tells You......




And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

Guys he has a point. Look at his profile pic. He worships Mary, too.   ;D
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 04:49:39 PM by Azurestone »

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2010, 04:49:00 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

Sounds like a description of most Orthodox churches I've visited, only there are also images of the saints everywhere.
We have images of Saints too. I still don't get what the issue is.

I was referring mostly to the Basilica of the IC.  Of course, I know that there are images of saints in Catholic churches worldwide...at least those that weren't wreckovated. :)
Wreckovated. I'll have to remember that.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2010, 04:51:16 PM »
I think that RC's give more attention to Mary than Orthodox do in general and she is usually displayed more prominently in the former (often by herself, with a crown, etc.). Also, she is more central to devotions in the RC tradition (e.g. Rosary) and the immaculate conception and the assumption dogma, neither of which the Orthodox have.

Offline stashko

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2010, 04:54:49 PM »

The Infant Jesus Is On Her Lap ...... center of Attention for us ...I don't have or want icons of Mary by Herself....


Center? But she's so much BIGGER!




Very few  Orthodox Ikona's  show the Blessed Theotokos by Herself ...Christs is the center of attention for us  And Theotokos Points to Him ,Do what He Tells You......




And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

Guys he has a point. Look at his profile pic. He worships Mary, too.   ;D

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2010, 04:55:37 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

Sounds like a description of most Orthodox churches I've visited, only there are also images of the saints everywhere.
We have images of Saints too. I still don't get what the issue is.

I was referring mostly to the Basilica of the IC.  Of course, I know that there are images of saints in Catholic churches worldwide...at least those that weren't wreckovated. :)
Well obviously there is going to be more attention payed to Mary in a Basilica dedicated to her Immaculate Conception. That doesn't imply Mary worship.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 04:55:58 PM by Wyatt »

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2010, 04:57:45 PM »
I think that RC's give more attention to Mary than Orthodox do in general and she is usually displayed more prominently in the former (often by herself, with a crown, etc.). Also, she is more central to devotions in the RC tradition (e.g. Rosary) and the immaculate conception and the assumption dogma, neither of which the Orthodox have.

And yet, in the Catholic Mass, even the old Latin one, the Blessed Mother is mentioned far less than she is in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Both of those liturgies are 90+% of what the average Catholic and Orthodox, respectively, experience of their total religious life.

I'm sorry, but to anyone who pays attention to the liturgical texts can see, the Orthodox talk about the Blessed Mother far more than the Catholics, especially modern Catholics, do.
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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2010, 05:02:14 PM »
I think that RC's give more attention to Mary than Orthodox do in general and she is usually displayed more prominently in the former (often by herself, with a crown, etc.). Also, she is more central to devotions in the RC tradition (e.g. Rosary) and the immaculate conception and the assumption dogma, neither of which the Orthodox have.

And yet, in the Catholic Mass, even the old Latin one, the Blessed Mother is mentioned far less than she is in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Both of those liturgies are 90+% of what the average Catholic and Orthodox, respectively, experience of their total religious life.

I'm sorry, but to anyone who pays attention to the liturgical texts can see, the Orthodox talk about the Blessed Mother far more than the Catholics, especially modern Catholics, do.

Perhaps, but In general, I feel that the Orthodox Church gives her the respect that is proper, while the Roman Church elevates her above that which is proper. No offense RC's, just my opinion...  :-*

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2010, 05:26:54 PM »
But why is she so BIG? She must be more important? If not, you'd have a giant Jesus, right? and then maybe a little Mary next to him?

Mary by herself? How rude. How do we know who she IS?! Is she labeled?


The Infant Jesus Is On Her Lap ...... center of Attention for us ...I don't have or want icons of Mary by Herself....

Center? But she's so much BIGGER!





I'm going to need this.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2010, 05:30:37 PM »
Well of course there is the Christ Pantocrator above in the dome which usually dwarfs the Theotokos Platytera Icon in comparison.

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2010, 05:41:54 PM »
Hu !...Are you for real..... ;D Being dipicted Larger doesn't make one greater ...Who Can be Greater than God...Who... ;D




But why is she so BIG? She must be more important? If not, you'd have a giant Jesus, right? and then maybe a little Mary next to him?

Mary by herself? How rude. How do we know who she IS?! Is she labeled?


The Infant Jesus Is On Her Lap ...... center of Attention for us ...I don't have or want icons of Mary by Herself....

Center? But she's so much BIGGER!




ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2010, 05:43:58 PM »
I think that RC's give more attention to Mary than Orthodox do in general and she is usually displayed more prominently in the former (often by herself, with a crown, etc.). Also, she is more central to devotions in the RC tradition (e.g. Rosary) and the immaculate conception and the assumption dogma, neither of which the Orthodox have.

And yet, in the Catholic Mass, even the old Latin one, the Blessed Mother is mentioned far less than she is in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Both of those liturgies are 90+% of what the average Catholic and Orthodox, respectively, experience of their total religious life.

I'm sorry, but to anyone who pays attention to the liturgical texts can see, the Orthodox talk about the Blessed Mother far more than the Catholics, especially modern Catholics, do.

Perhaps, but In general, I feel that the Orthodox Church gives her the respect that is proper, while the Roman Church elevates her above that which is proper. No offense RC's, just my opinion...  :-*
Yes, like chanting, "Mary, save us!"
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2010, 05:45:01 PM »
Mike Ditka!  ;D ;)

Quote
Daaaaa Bears!
:D

Hu !...Are you for real..... ;D Being dipicted Larger doesn't make one greater ...Who Can be Greater than God...Who... ;D

But why is she so BIG? She must be more important? If not, you'd have a giant Jesus, right? and then maybe a little Mary next to him?

Mary by herself? How rude. How do we know who she IS?! Is she labeled?


The Infant Jesus Is On Her Lap ...... center of Attention for us ...I don't have or want icons of Mary by Herself....

I'm going to need this.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2010, 06:40:01 PM »
I think that RC's give more attention to Mary than Orthodox do in general and she is usually displayed more prominently in the former (often by herself, with a crown, etc.). Also, she is more central to devotions in the RC tradition (e.g. Rosary) and the immaculate conception and the assumption dogma, neither of which the Orthodox have.

And yet, in the Catholic Mass, even the old Latin one, the Blessed Mother is mentioned far less than she is in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Both of those liturgies are 90+% of what the average Catholic and Orthodox, respectively, experience of their total religious life.

I'm sorry, but to anyone who pays attention to the liturgical texts can see, the Orthodox talk about the Blessed Mother far more than the Catholics, especially modern Catholics, do.

Perhaps, but In general, I feel that the Orthodox Church gives her the respect that is proper, while the Roman Church elevates her above that which is proper. No offense RC's, just my opinion...  :-*
Yes, like chanting, "Mary, save us!"

This in no way attributes a co-redemptrix role to Mary. Salvation is viewed as radically different in the OC than in the West.  This is no different than when paul states:

"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."

1 Cor. 9:22

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2010, 06:43:32 PM »
Certainly there are Scriptures which talk about people having a hand in salvation (1 Tim. 4:16; James 5:19-20), and we Orthodox certainly believe in intercessory prayer by the saints that are part of the Church triumphant... yet I still think that it's a bit different when it comes to the Theotokos.

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2010, 06:49:11 PM »

The Infant Jesus Is On Her Lap ...... center of Attention for us ...I don't have or want icons of Mary by Herself....




Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Don't be so snug as to snub the Holy Mother of God! For what Man, does not honor and venerate his own earthly mother? And if Jesus Christ is indeed, fully God and fully Man, then surely our Lord and Savior in all things, in all ages, honors His Holy Mother in all the He is.  This is the economy of God, that through our own human endeavours, God meets us half the way, and carries us forward.  We live in a world of 4 dimensions, of time and space interacting, we have free will to move in any corpeal direction we chose, and yet we are ALWAYS both sustained and limited by the realities of the laws of reality such as Gravity.  Such is our Free Will economy with God, who is the Source and Being of all things, and so we have only the freedom to move within the parameters of God, but what a glorious freedom it is!

And that being said, the miracle of the Incarnation is Divine enough to sustain all things, and so just as God has deigned Himself to take on the flesh, that the Limitless would become Limited, the Eternal would take on a specific time and place, so also He has allowed for the Holy Mother to operate within the parameters of human Free Will.  Just as a mother pushes her babe in the stroller, trodding in the hot sun across the park by the strength and grace of her own human endurance, so to does the Savior allow Himself to be moved by humans, through the Grace given to His Holy Mother.  The economy of God is to cooperate fully within the Free Will of Human decisions, and His Holy Mother is very much a part of this, for it is written to Honor thy Mother and Father with promise.

While Mary was only His Regent while He was a Babe, She carried Him where She willed until He carried Himself (Luke 2:49), nonetheless what man as he grows older cares less for his mother? Do we human men on the earth not grow more fond, more reverent, more respectful of our earthly mothers as we grow into successful men, and as we embrace our own authority, do we not all the more so yield it to the love and honor of our Mothers at any and every cost? So to, even as the Savior is enthroned at the Right Hand of the Father, out of pure love, He will always respect and revere and honor the will and decisions and opinions and thoughts and requests of His and Our Holy Mother.
There is neither Mariology nor Marianology , simply the Love of God which operates through us all, and especially Our Mother.

Stay Blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 06:55:18 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2010, 07:25:36 PM »
As a Serbian Eastern Orthodox Christian I have Great love For the Blessed Theotokos, But she is the Holy handmaiden Of the Lord...And She Did say when she received the greeting and News Let it will be done according to your word...So she's the perfect example for us to imitate doing the Lords will...I just can't separate The Blessed Theotokos and Christ From each other....So thats why I prefer Icons with Her and the Infant Saviour together.......Or that what Im use to Growing Up......

Even the Holy Icon that show the dormition Of the Holy Virgin [Falling asleep]Jesus is in the Icon Holding the Soul Of The Blessed Theotokos His Holy Mother, depicted as a infant wrapped in white swaddling cloth......



The Infant Jesus Is On Her Lap ...... center of Attention for us ...I don't have or want icons of Mary by Herself....




Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Don't be so snug as to snub the Holy Mother of God! For what Man, does not honor and venerate his own earthly mother? And if Jesus Christ is indeed, fully God and fully Man, then surely our Lord and Savior in all things, in all ages, honors His Holy Mother in all the He is.  This is the economy of God, that through our own human endeavours, God meets us half the way, and carries us forward.  We live in a world of 4 dimensions, of time and space interacting, we have free will to move in any corpeal direction we chose, and yet we are ALWAYS both sustained and limited by the realities of the laws of reality such as Gravity.  Such is our Free Will economy with God, who is the Source and Being of all things, and so we have only the freedom to move within the parameters of God, but what a glorious freedom it is!

And that being said, the miracle of the Incarnation is Divine enough to sustain all things, and so just as God has deigned Himself to take on the flesh, that the Limitless would become Limited, the Eternal would take on a specific time and place, so also He has allowed for the Holy Mother to operate within the parameters of human Free Will.  Just as a mother pushes her babe in the stroller, trodding in the hot sun across the park by the strength and grace of her own human endurance, so to does the Savior allow Himself to be moved by humans, through the Grace given to His Holy Mother.  The economy of God is to cooperate fully within the Free Will of Human decisions, and His Holy Mother is very much a part of this, for it is written to Honor thy Mother and Father with promise.

While Mary was only His Regent while He was a Babe, She carried Him where She willed until He carried Himself (Luke 2:49), nonetheless what man as he grows older cares less for his mother? Do we human men on the earth not grow more fond, more reverent, more respectful of our earthly mothers as we grow into successful men, and as we embrace our own authority, do we not all the more so yield it to the love and honor of our Mothers at any and every cost? So to, even as the Savior is enthroned at the Right Hand of the Father, out of pure love, He will always respect and revere and honor the will and decisions and opinions and thoughts and requests of His and Our Holy Mother.
There is neither Mariology nor Marianology , simply the Love of God which operates through us all, and especially Our Mother.

Stay Blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 07:43:02 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2010, 07:42:00 PM »
As a Serbian Eastern Orthodox Christian I have Great love For the Blessed Theotokos, But she is the Holy handmaiden Of the Lord...And She Did say when she received the greeting and News Let it will be done according to your word...So she's the perfect example for us to imitate doing the Lords will...I just can't separate The Blessed Theotokos and Christ From each other....So thats why I prefer Icons with Her and the Infant Saviour together.......Or that what Im use to Growing Up......






Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

My brother, in all due respect and kindness, the vitriolic behavior you have had on this and other threads demonstrates that at times you are indeed separating the Mother from Her Son not perhaps on your iconstasis, but indeed in your heart, for Mary and Christ are the very substance of the true Unity between the Lamb and the Bride, the Body of Christ and Its Head and we (both Mary and all humanity) are mutual communion,

Further, its as I said before, what man, even when he grows up and expresses His own authority, does He not yield it in love and reverence to His mother? I believe in my heart the Christ, in His Perfection, if He yields to the will of any men or women, surely it is in honor of the precept He follows His mother, as even the Scriptures attest to in John 2 when it is written that "He was subject unto them"
I do not mean to doubt or discredit the sincerity of your faith, but let your actions so follow your heart.  Act accordingly, not antagonistically!  
stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 07:43:34 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline stashko

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2010, 07:56:26 PM »
Did roman Catholicism Influence Ethiopia Orthodoxy to some degree ,when the Italians attacked Ethiopia...You even Have  Ethiopean catholic Churches....Some Of your religious Pictures in your churches look Latin ..... ??? ??? Maybe this is cause of the misunderstanding between us in how we see and Honor Holy Mary...





As a Serbian Eastern Orthodox Christian I have Great love For the Blessed Theotokos, But she is the Holy handmaiden Of the Lord...And She Did say when she received the greeting and News Let it will be done according to your word...So she's the perfect example for us to imitate doing the Lords will...I just can't separate The Blessed Theotokos and Christ From each other....So thats why I prefer Icons with Her and the Infant Saviour together.......Or that what Im use to Growing Up......






Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

My brother, in all due respect and kindness, the vitriolic behavior you have had on this and other threads demonstrates that at times you are indeed separating the Mother from Her Son not perhaps on your iconstasis, but indeed in your heart, for Mary and Christ are the very substance of the true Unity between the Lamb and the Bride, the Body of Christ and Its Head and we (both Mary and all humanity) are mutual communion,

Further, its as I said before, what man, even when he grows up and expresses His own authority, does He not yield it in love and reverence to His mother? I believe in my heart the Christ, in His Perfection, if He yields to the will of any men or women, surely it is in honor of the precept He follows His mother, as even the Scriptures attest to in John 2 when it is written that "He was subject unto them"
I do not mean to doubt or discredit the sincerity of your faith, but let your actions so follow your heart.  Act accordingly, not antagonistically!  
stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 08:04:28 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline akimel

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2010, 08:05:59 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

This is ridiculous.  Any Protestant who attends a the Divine Liturgy will immediately come to the conclusion that the Orthodox WORSHIP the Virgin Mary.  How many prayers of the Mass are directed to the Theotokos?  Context is everything! 

Stashko is an anti-Catholic bigot.  I do not understand why he is allowed on this forum to perpetrate his bigotry on this forum.  Do you not understand the damage he does "in the name of Christ and Orthodoxy"? 

Offline stashko

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2010, 08:17:54 PM »
Ikona's painted all over the Church tell biblical stories and events ,picture writing ...Any Protestant that comes into a Orthodox Church will start gazing at the ceiling and walls  reading them....  ;D

How many of my protestant friends iv taken to church ,I tried to explain the Icons and stories they said no need they could read it for themselfs...They Loved them...


And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

This is ridiculous.  Any Protestant who attends a the Divine Liturgy will immediately come to the conclusion that the Orthodox WORSHIP the Virgin Mary.  How many prayers of the Mass are directed to the Theotokos?  Context is everything!  

Stashko is an anti-Catholic bigot.  I do not understand why he is allowed on this forum to perpetrate his bigotry on this forum.  Do you not understand the damage he does "in the name of Christ and Orthodoxy"?  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 08:29:20 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2010, 08:40:42 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?
Everywhere one turned  Mary in Depicted in Mosaics , Ikon's ,Pictures, cutout tin images of mary hangings on the walls .....What would the protestants think if they ever visited.. It crossed my mind  when i visited the cathedral Mary worship ....

This is ridiculous.  Any Protestant who attends a the Divine Liturgy will immediately come to the conclusion that the Orthodox WORSHIP the Virgin Mary.  How many prayers of the Mass are directed to the Theotokos?  Context is everything!  

Stashko is an anti-Catholic bigot.  I do not understand why he is allowed on this forum to perpetrate his bigotry on this forum.  Do you not understand the damage he does "in the name of Christ and Orthodoxy"?  
Father, forgive him for he knows not what he does.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 08:41:12 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2010, 09:03:07 PM »
lol - yes, stashko can be annoying.

However, he's right there on Prayer Forum, whenever anyone - even us RCs - asks for help.

So his annoyingness is less annoying to me these days. ;)
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2010, 11:45:55 AM »
Quote
The fact that the vast majority of EO remain silent when such things are said about RCs rather than speaking up and chastising them for such comments speaks much louder than words ever could.

Come on, let's not make blanket unsubstantiated statements and label them as 'facts'. It's bad enough that news and opinion on secular events go down that road; we, who profess to be of faith, should do better than that!  BTW, I suppose you weren't following the Icon of Iveron (Hawaii) around the country and taking note of the mixed nature of the congregations that were present to honor the Theotokas.


Edit: fixed quote tags, no more.  -Schultz.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 01:26:25 PM by Schultz »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2010, 02:46:11 PM »

Come on, let's not make blanket unsubstantiated statements and label them as 'facts'. It's bad enough that news and opinion on secular events go down that road; we, who profess to be of faith, should do better than that!  BTW, I suppose you weren't following the Icon of Iveron (Hawaii) around the country and taking note of the mixed nature of the congregations that were present to honor the Theotokas.

Thank you so much for bringing this to our attention and the reminder that we do come together in our love for the mother of God.

Mary

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2010, 03:19:55 PM »
Quote
I do not understand why he is allowed on this forum to perpetrate his bigotry on this forum.

In my opinion, because there's no point in muzzling people and I actually appreciate that.

This is unrelated, but bear with me.  I saw a news story here - http://www.wral.com/news/education/story/8565346/ about people protesting a free speech tunnel.  Basically they want free expression to be policed in the free speech tunnel for things they (one can say understandably) find offensive.  I think that's ridiculous, and I look at this the same way.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 03:43:05 PM by AMM »

Offline akimel

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2010, 05:09:03 PM »
Quote
I do not understand why he is allowed on this forum to perpetrate his bigotry on this forum.

In my opinion, because there's no point in muzzling people and I actually appreciate that.

This is unrelated, but bear with me.  I saw a news story here - http://www.wral.com/news/education/story/8565346/ about people protesting a free speech tunnel.  Basically they want free expression to be policed in the free speech tunnel for things they (one can say understandably) find offensive.  I think that's ridiculous, and I look at this the same way.

Why do you think that Christians believe in unlimited free speech?   Christians have always recognized, at least within the bounds of ecclesial community, that discourse is rightly bounded by revealed truth, charity, civility, and mutual respect.  We may often transgress these boundaries; but that is no excuse for not insisting upon truthful and charitable speech.   

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2010, 05:33:38 PM »


Stashko, and others, are allowed to say what they want when they want so long as they do not violate our board policies which every user agreed upon at registration.  What this means is that a user can say outrageous, ridiculous, and even offensive things so long as they basically do not engage in ad hominem and follow proper rules of citation.  We leave it up to our other users to either avoid engaging in debate with absurd arguments and statements (e.g. Do Not Feed the Troll) or to point out the absurdity of such a user's posts.  As noted, this does not mean the moderation staff is here to correct uncharitable behavior or give a proverbial slap to a user's mouth when he or she acts like a child or, worse yet, a fool.  

Our Lord and His Church teaches us to turn the other cheek and be charitable to those who are uncharitable to us; if we cannot do such a thing, we should simply ignore users whose posts we find offensive for the deranged ravings we think they may be.

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« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 05:33:56 PM by Schultz »
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Offline stashko

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2010, 06:03:25 PM »
Ok ! Schultz
Here it is ....

As a Traditional Serbian Orthodox Christian ,i don't recognize The pope it's church or it bishops or priests as clergy, but laypeople in fancy dress playing church....Our Serbian newly elected Patriarch and some of our Bishops may want to Dialog with rome ,but the Majority of Serbs Like minded will not tolerate it for very long...... We will eventually rise up and cast them out..they want rome so much we will send them there.....Hopefully by the Grace Of God we will get a serbian chapter started of Nashi that Holy Mother Russia Has .....[ Nashi] Ours]....For Holy Orthodoxy ,God And Country.....
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 06:20:04 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2010, 07:17:22 PM »
Did roman Catholicism Influence Ethiopia Orthodoxy to some degree ,when the Italians attacked Ethiopia...You even Have  Ethiopian catholic Churches....Some Of your religious Pictures in your churches look Latin ..... ??? ??? Maybe this is cause of the misunderstanding between us in how we see and Honor Holy Mary...


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So is that your game my brother, to antagonize me personally now for my own histories and connections to Orthodox? That is silly at best, and destructive at worst.  First let me correct you, the schisms in Ethiopia between the Roman Church and the Mother Tewahedo Church are not from Italian occupation, they stem from the Portuguese Jesuits in the 16th and 17th centuries, who spread the Gregorian reformations and pursued a Latinization of Ethiopian Orthodoxy, including attempts at rebaptizing whole populations and sending false and literally lying and cheating supposed Patriarchs who pretended to be Egyptian and having forged documents from the Patriarch in Alexandria!  The Ethiopian Roman Catholic Church which has a few hundred thousand members today in Ethiopia is the direct result of that history, and began to thrive during the period of persecution of Imperialists within the Orthodox family during the Derg era.

Those are the Ethiopian Roman Catholic Churches, but even in the Tewahedo Orthodox parishes Ethiopians have such a solid and admirable faith in Jesus Christ that they do not discriminate in their images of worship, between "Catholic" or "Orthodox" or "African" or even Pentecostal.  In many delightful churches, contrary to the normal tastes of parishioners in other traditions who are rather snobbish about their Images and prefer them to be in-line with their own ethnic/racial/nationalistic perspectives, there are a wide variety of Images of Jesus or the Saints or of Mary, some are from Protestant Christmas cards! Some are indeed Roman Catholic, some are Greek Orthodox, you will find several Images of Jesus on the same Altar or church wall being white, black and brown! Ethiopians do not have a preference, they revere ALL Images of our Savior, and seldom could find fault in any, be it lily white Anglican paintings, Baptists prints, Roman Catholic prayer cards, Orthodox icons, or any such Images. I personally (even as an American convert) adore the black, Ethiopian Jesus icons of the purely Ethiopian traditions, and wear one around my neck, but Ethiopians themselves are comfortable enough with Jesus that they do not need to personalize Him, they do not NEED and Ethiopian Jesus to believe and be secure, they do not care much for historicity or nationalism.

The only misunderstandings here are between you personally and many other people whose faith you have even dared to scoff?! That is silly, I pray for the unity of love between us, I do not think your beliefs have to be antagonistic, you are free to worship as your heart sees fit, but why attack others continuously for their own faith? It is not yours to judge, for One is the Judge and the Lawgiver.

The Virgin Mary is integral symbol and presence of our Faith in Orthodox.  She is the Shrine which can never be over-turned as God himself chose to dwell within Her just as He comes and dwells within us, she is the Right and True Queen of Heaven, and she is our True and Sympathetic Mother.  It is not of Herself that She does this, it is the Nature and Essence of God which operates through Her and us, but none-the-less, She plays a central role as both the Scriptures and the Holy Tradition attest to.  This is the economy of God, that He operates within the free will of human beings, and the Virgin Mary is indeed a human being, entirely, solely, and so Her Unity with God and communion is our own, for if She could be given such Grace, so can we, and if it is One Body of Christ unbroken, then our connection with Her is as permanent as with anyone else.  We honor Her because God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit did, do and will continue to honor Her, it is right and fitting.
It is not of Her own power, but of God, but still God chooses in His Divine Mercy, to operate through Her in us.  She is the sign that God will have mercy on human beings, and there is Hope yet for humanity, and we should be careful to never belittle this great miracle of God, that "all generations shall call Her blessed."

Please dwell in unity of faith and love of fellowship, or you will be caught up in the web of your own misunderstandings and antagonisms, and will have no one to fault but yourself, for as we in Rastafari say, "If a fish woulda keep him big yap shut, him never woulda got caught!" We also say that those who burn fire must be careful, "because the fire is not partial, not even to him that burns the fire!"

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline AMM

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2010, 07:31:58 PM »
Why do you think that Christians believe in unlimited free speech?

Because we have free will.  Even here though, not all speech would be tolerated.  There are bounds, which there should be, to regulate discourse and so on.  The point to me about free speech though is not so much that we're free to say anything, but that we're mature enough mentally and spiritually to regulate what comes out of our mouths.


It's all of course balanced with the knowledge that nobody actually acts like this in real life.  The impersonality and distance of text conversation allows us to greater latitude to be idiotic and offensive.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2010, 07:39:59 PM »
And How mary is worshiped all over the world by Catholics ...
Uhh...care to elaborate on this?

Are you sure you really want that?  ;) :D
Oh yes, I would indeed like to know why when the EO have a devotion to the Blessed Theotokos it is "veneration" and completely acceptable, yet when an RC has a devotion to her it's suddenly idolatry. The anti-Catholicism just gets more and more blatant on here.

stashko's anti-Catholicism is nothing new, nor is it representative of most Orthodox on here, though I agree with you that some people do have a double standard when it comes to Mary, purgatory, communion, etc.
The fact that the vast majority of EO remain silent when such things are said about RCs rather than speaking up and chastising them for such comments speaks much louder than words ever could.

As Papist said, we're used to stashko's outbursts and, frankly, he's allowed to have them.  Just like you're allowed to rebut them if you choose to do so.  Just know that we've been over this time and time again; you're not going to change his mind and he's not going to change yours.

Secondly, if you're going to stick around here, you need to grow a thicker skin.  Why do you care so much about what a faceless internet user thinks about your religion?  If your faith is that weak that it's scuttled by comments made by some anonymous person via a post on an internet messageboard, you perhaps need to not argue religion on the internet.  I say this as someone who has seen way too many people leave their respective churches because of something someone said on the internet.

I for one have been only recently made aware of this hatred of so-called Mary worshipers, This was earlier this year in a social atmosphere with some new friends who spoke Greek yet were of another faith I am not sure which. But this person became very close to me because he only speaks Spanish and Greek and very little English so I was the only one who he knew in Illinois who spoke Greek and he had learned it as a young sailor on Greek ships sailing out of Venezuela where he is from. He made a comment about Catholics and the Virgin Mary once that mirrors what is being said here which I as a Greek Orthodox never really heard before. Maybe just vague mentions in offhand remarks through the years.

I vigorously rebuked him that day and he did not understand why because he knew I was a Greek Orthodox and he had spent much time with Greeks when he was young (20-30 years prior), I told him I did not like him judging them badly that way regardless what he thought was wrong about their practice. I felt that way as I have been to many Thursday worship services that we venerate the Virgin. I will say that very few are ever there and it may be that it is a small service and during the work week ,but anyway I have venerated her many times at my Greek Orthodox church near Chicago.

I certainly never heard any Greeks talking that way in church or at all the Greek Church functions I have worked as a musician all my life.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 07:50:18 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline stashko

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2010, 07:49:30 PM »
Thank You! for the History lession on Ethiopia..May God Bless Orthodox Ethiopia and It's  people Prosper their by the Grace of God....

Why Shouldn't Holy Orthodoxy take a stand for truth...Why Aren't you a Ethiopian Unitarian ,they seem to accept everything....I mentioned Before somewhere that Catholics Don't confess the same creed as we Eastern Orthodox do  ,So our Holy Trinity isn't the same..they worship a different god..There Mary is a Mary of Of recent Apparitions, not known to Holy Orthodoxy..We eastern Orthodox venerate The Scriptual Most Blessed Theotokos .....

There was a Ethiopian Deacon Amstead on this forum awhile back ,He wouldn't agreed with some of the things you posted....




Did roman Catholicism Influence Ethiopia Orthodoxy to some degree ,when the Italians attacked Ethiopia...You even Have  Ethiopian catholic Churches....Some Of your religious Pictures in your churches look Latin ..... ??? ??? Maybe this is cause of the misunderstanding between us in how we see and Honor Holy Mary...


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So is that your game my brother, to antagonize me personally now for my own histories and connections to Orthodox? That is silly at best, and destructive at worst.  First let me correct you, the schisms in Ethiopia between the Roman Church and the Mother Tewahedo Church are not from Italian occupation, they stem from the Portuguese Jesuits in the 16th and 17th centuries, who spread the Gregorian reformations and pursued a Latinization of Ethiopian Orthodoxy, including attempts at rebaptizing whole populations and sending false and literally lying and cheating supposed Patriarchs who pretended to be Egyptian and having forged documents from the Patriarch in Alexandria!  The Ethiopian Roman Catholic Church which has a few hundred thousand members today in Ethiopia is the direct result of that history, and began to thrive during the period of persecution of Imperialists within the Orthodox family during the Derg era.

Those are the Ethiopian Roman Catholic Churches, but even in the Tewahedo Orthodox parishes Ethiopians have such a solid and admirable faith in Jesus Christ that they do not discriminate in their images of worship, between "Catholic" or "Orthodox" or "African" or even Pentecostal.  In many delightful churches, contrary to the normal tastes of parishioners in other traditions who are rather snobbish about their Images and prefer them to be in-line with their own ethnic/racial/nationalistic perspectives, there are a wide variety of Images of Jesus or the Saints or of Mary, some are from Protestant Christmas cards! Some are indeed Roman Catholic, some are Greek Orthodox, you will find several Images of Jesus on the same Altar or church wall being white, black and brown! Ethiopians do not have a preference, they revere ALL Images of our Savior, and seldom could find fault in any, be it lily white Anglican paintings, Baptists prints, Roman Catholic prayer cards, Orthodox icons, or any such Images. I personally (even as an American convert) adore the black, Ethiopian Jesus icons of the purely Ethiopian traditions, and wear one around my neck, but Ethiopians themselves are comfortable enough with Jesus that they do not need to personalize Him, they do not NEED and Ethiopian Jesus to believe and be secure, they do not care much for historicity or nationalism.

The only misunderstandings here are between you personally and many other people whose faith you have even dared to scoff?! That is silly, I pray for the unity of love between us, I do not think your beliefs have to be antagonistic, you are free to worship as your heart sees fit, but why attack others continuously for their own faith? It is not yours to judge, for One is the Judge and the Lawgiver.

The Virgin Mary is integral symbol and presence of our Faith in Orthodox.  She is the Shrine which can never be over-turned as God himself chose to dwell within Her just as He comes and dwells within us, she is the Right and True Queen of Heaven, and she is our True and Sympathetic Mother.  It is not of Herself that She does this, it is the Nature and Essence of God which operates through Her and us, but none-the-less, She plays a central role as both the Scriptures and the Holy Tradition attest to.  This is the economy of God, that He operates within the free will of human beings, and the Virgin Mary is indeed a human being, entirely, solely, and so Her Unity with God and communion is our own, for if She could be given such Grace, so can we, and if it is One Body of Christ unbroken, then our connection with Her is as permanent as with anyone else.  We honor Her because God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit did, do and will continue to honor Her, it is right and fitting.
It is not of Her own power, but of God, but still God chooses in His Divine Mercy, to operate through Her in us.  She is the sign that God will have mercy on human beings, and there is Hope yet for humanity, and we should be careful to never belittle this great miracle of God, that "all generations shall call Her blessed."

Please dwell in unity of faith and love of fellowship, or you will be caught up in the web of your own misunderstandings and antagonisms, and will have no one to fault but yourself, for as we in Rastafari say, "If a fish woulda keep him big yap shut, him never woulda got caught!" We also say that those who burn fire must be careful, "because the fire is not partial, not even to him that burns the fire!"

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 08:12:50 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline stashko

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2010, 08:29:44 PM »

spelling corrected Name...to Deacon Amdetsion

Thank You! for the History lession on Ethiopia..May God Bless Orthodox Ethiopia and It's  people Prosper their by the Grace of God....

Why Shouldn't Holy Orthodoxy take a stand for truth...Why Aren't you a Ethiopian Unitarian ,they seem to accept everything....I mentioned Before somewhere that Catholics Don't confess the same creed as we Eastern Orthodox do  ,So our Holy Trinity isn't the same..they worship a different god..There Mary is a Mary of Of recent Apparitions, not known to Holy Orthodoxy..We eastern Orthodox venerate The Scriptual Most Blessed Theotokos .....

There was a Ethiopian Deacon Amdetsion on this forum awhile back ,He wouldn't agreed with some of the things you posted....
                               ------------------ [ Fr.Deacons Name Corrected Spelling]



Did roman Catholicism Influence Ethiopia Orthodoxy to some degree ,when the Italians attacked Ethiopia...You even Have  Ethiopian catholic Churches....Some Of your religious Pictures in your churches look Latin ..... ??? ??? Maybe this is cause of the misunderstanding between us in how we see and Honor Holy Mary...


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So is that your game my brother, to antagonize me personally now for my own histories and connections to Orthodox? That is silly at best, and destructive at worst.  First let me correct you, the schisms in Ethiopia between the Roman Church and the Mother Tewahedo Church are not from Italian occupation, they stem from the Portuguese Jesuits in the 16th and 17th centuries, who spread the Gregorian reformations and pursued a Latinization of Ethiopian Orthodoxy, including attempts at rebaptizing whole populations and sending false and literally lying and cheating supposed Patriarchs who pretended to be Egyptian and having forged documents from the Patriarch in Alexandria!  The Ethiopian Roman Catholic Church which has a few hundred thousand members today in Ethiopia is the direct result of that history, and began to thrive during the period of persecution of Imperialists within the Orthodox family during the Derg era.

Those are the Ethiopian Roman Catholic Churches, but even in the Tewahedo Orthodox parishes Ethiopians have such a solid and admirable faith in Jesus Christ that they do not discriminate in their images of worship, between "Catholic" or "Orthodox" or "African" or even Pentecostal.  In many delightful churches, contrary to the normal tastes of parishioners in other traditions who are rather snobbish about their Images and prefer them to be in-line with their own ethnic/racial/nationalistic perspectives, there are a wide variety of Images of Jesus or the Saints or of Mary, some are from Protestant Christmas cards! Some are indeed Roman Catholic, some are Greek Orthodox, you will find several Images of Jesus on the same Altar or church wall being white, black and brown! Ethiopians do not have a preference, they revere ALL Images of our Savior, and seldom could find fault in any, be it lily white Anglican paintings, Baptists prints, Roman Catholic prayer cards, Orthodox icons, or any such Images. I personally (even as an American convert) adore the black, Ethiopian Jesus icons of the purely Ethiopian traditions, and wear one around my neck, but Ethiopians themselves are comfortable enough with Jesus that they do not need to personalize Him, they do not NEED and Ethiopian Jesus to believe and be secure, they do not care much for historicity or nationalism.

The only misunderstandings here are between you personally and many other people whose faith you have even dared to scoff?! That is silly, I pray for the unity of love between us, I do not think your beliefs have to be antagonistic, you are free to worship as your heart sees fit, but why attack others continuously for their own faith? It is not yours to judge, for One is the Judge and the Lawgiver.

The Virgin Mary is integral symbol and presence of our Faith in Orthodox.  She is the Shrine which can never be over-turned as God himself chose to dwell within Her just as He comes and dwells within us, she is the Right and True Queen of Heaven, and she is our True and Sympathetic Mother.  It is not of Herself that She does this, it is the Nature and Essence of God which operates through Her and us, but none-the-less, She plays a central role as both the Scriptures and the Holy Tradition attest to.  This is the economy of God, that He operates within the free will of human beings, and the Virgin Mary is indeed a human being, entirely, solely, and so Her Unity with God and communion is our own, for if She could be given such Grace, so can we, and if it is One Body of Christ unbroken, then our connection with Her is as permanent as with anyone else.  We honor Her because God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit did, do and will continue to honor Her, it is right and fitting.
It is not of Her own power, but of God, but still God chooses in His Divine Mercy, to operate through Her in us.  She is the sign that God will have mercy on human beings, and there is Hope yet for humanity, and we should be careful to never belittle this great miracle of God, that "all generations shall call Her blessed."

Please dwell in unity of faith and love of fellowship, or you will be caught up in the web of your own misunderstandings and antagonisms, and will have no one to fault but yourself, for as we in Rastafari say, "If a fish woulda keep him big yap shut, him never woulda got caught!" We also say that those who burn fire must be careful, "because the fire is not partial, not even to him that burns the fire!"

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 08:32:08 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Roman Catholic Churches
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2010, 11:14:16 PM »
Thank You! for the History lession on Ethiopia..May God Bless Orthodox Ethiopia and It's  people Prosper their by the Grace of God....

Why Shouldn't Holy Orthodoxy take a stand for truth...Why Aren't you a Ethiopian Unitarian ,they seem to accept everything....I mentioned Before somewhere that Catholics Don't confess the same creed as we Eastern Orthodox do  ,So our Holy Trinity isn't the same..they worship a different god..There Mary is a Mary of Of recent Apparitions, not known to Holy Orthodoxy..We eastern Orthodox venerate The Scriptual Most Blessed Theotokos .....

There was a Ethiopian Deacon Amstead on this forum awhile back ,He wouldn't agreed with some of the things you posted....


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Brother, please, in the Grace of God, humbly get over yourself! You are going to school me on my experience in that you are now speaking on behalf of an ordained Deacon? Humility goes a long way, I may be chief amongst sinners before Christ, but before God I have done nothing to antagonize you so much as you continue to insist to do to me and many folks on this thread! I pray for the calmness of your spirit and peace between us all, for this is truly a silly thing.

The Virgin signifies the Unity between (purely) humans and God, through the miracle of the Incarnation, and I need not further explain this to you, other than that if you continue to promote seeds of strife, bitterness and division, surely your works will speak for themselves in the scheme of things.  Please pursue peace rater than division, the truth is love, not petty quarrels.
You said take a stand for truth, who here aside from you in your own self-aggrandizing opinion ever suggested anything against the truth of Orthodox? Your fire and brimstone will only serve to burn and hurt yourself, the rest of us are praying in the humility of God for reconciliation on behalf of our sins, but you keep pushing buttons.  Leyikun, Leyikun, Burukte Leyikun! (Let it be, Let it be, Let it be Blessed!)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline synLeszka

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Re: Alleged Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2010, 03:50:46 PM »
cancelled
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 04:00:18 PM by synLeszka »