OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 11:20:37 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Fellow Catholics: should we want to commune with the EO?  (Read 10159 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2010, 04:59:38 PM »

The bottom line is that you do  not want to take Orthodoxy (or even Eastern Catholicism) on its own terms but you want it to conform to your rather Roman ideas of tidiness and consistency.  These presumptions on your part make your usefulness to the ecumenical dialogue questionable.

 laugh laugh laugh

Don't you just wish!!



We see it here often.  Your scathing comments and ad hominems when someone does not agree with you and in particular does not agree with your thoughts and your timeline for unity.  You are in such a rush for it that you won't tolerate anything which you see as impeding it.   That is NOT the way that good ecumenists deal with these things.  They listen, they do not impose.  They do not try to make the person on the other side feel small or inadequate or ignorant or out of touch with reality or..... any of the many ways you have of brushing off matters you do not want to hear about.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #136 on: November 06, 2010, 05:04:51 PM »


It is telling how want to talk about "what is coming" but do not want to deal with what has actually come, i.e. the decision of the Holy Synod of Romania against Met. Nicolaie and its support throughout Orthodoxy.

What is to deal with?  He took it upon himself as a bishop and leader of a Church in schism with Rome

No, he's in communion with Bishop Siluan. Btw, the problems of jurisdiction with Bishop Sluan and the ROC are with the Ecumenical Patriarch (as having jurisdiction over Italy, long exercised through its Metropolitan in Venice), not the Vatican.

Quote
to step over the line drawn by Orthodoxy and share a chalice in communion with the Catholic Church.

He stepped over the line drawn by Orthodoxy and share a chalic not in communion with the Catholic Church.  And only by repentance to the Catholic Church that she did not depose him.

Quote
He was chastised for his example

As it should be, so others may fear.

Quote
and will not be given the opportunity to do that again, until after the the end of the schism

The Romanian Orthodox Church is working on that.

Quote
That does not change or alter anything that I have suggested here at all.
 

Truer words you have rarely posted.

Quote
You and Father Ambrose are not in charge.

No, but unlike you we speak for those who are.

Quote
Thank heaven!!
indeed!
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #137 on: November 06, 2010, 05:21:42 PM »

Quote
[quote author=Irish Hermit link=topic=31047.msg490558#msg490558 date=1289072411
Until you tell us to what you are referring you appear to be simply discrediting Orthodoxy for your own reasons.  It doesn't look nice.  Maligning Orthodoxy with non-specific allegations would not be seen by Rome as furthering the ecumenical dialogue with Orthodoxy.


Appearances.  Yes.  Let's be concerned about appearances.  Do you really think I am here for appearance's sake?

These are Orthodox texts, readily available, on all the best book lists and catechism lists.  I am not going to sit here and type out text.

Not even a title? Doesn't pass the smell test, but with a different odor this time.

Quote
 Topics that don't co-inside precisely include the presence of an eternal priesthood, the real presence in Eucharist, varying teachings on the atonement and salvation, varying perspectives on the ancestral sin, which also has an impact on the way the sacraments of Initiation are treated.  There are other examples but those are the ones that come most readily to mind.

Any details come to mind? You just list, without specifics.

Quote
If you think that these things are treated equally among all Orthodox believers and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction then you haven't been paying much attention to on-line Orthodox dialogue...so it is not surprising that the same issues would appear in Orthodox texts.

Not much catechising that I know of, barrign extreme circumstances, is conducted on line. I'll save the rest until we get the details of your list, but I'll note I've seen such things are not treated equally among al believers in the Vatican from jurisdiction to jurisdiction which have caught my attention.

Quote
Do I think that is a bad thing?  Not precisely.  Sometimes I think it causes problems.  But to think of these variations as a malignancy?...no.  I am not that rigid in my thinking.

Yes, well, the Orthodox Church has standards.

Quote
It certainly doesn't support the Internet Orthodox fiction of some kind of monolithic Orthodoxy that sees the heretical Catholic Church in all the same fashion and manner, in substance and in attitude.   So that is actually a good thing...I think.  Keeps the reality from becoming as negative as some would like.

Yes, when it comes to Tradition and dogma, the Orthodox Church is quite monolithic, preserving the Catholic Church from heretical fictions.

Shocking as it might be to you, Orthodox catechis doesn't deal with the heresies of the Vatican-after all, the aim is to teach Orthodoxy to those coming into the Catholic Church-except those who have to adjure the Vatican's heresies to be chrismated/baptized.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2010, 05:26:08 PM »


 Topics that don't co-inside precisely include the presence of

an eternal priesthood

Not a major issue but see here

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20180.msg300372/topicseen.html#msg300372


Quote
the real presence in Eucharist

You have textbooks and catechisms teaching the Real Absence?  The mind boggles.

The studies I've seen show that the belief in the Real Presence is near unanimous among Orthodox rank and file, a clear contrast to the studies on the Vatican's flock.

varying teachings on the atonement and salvation

Variation and different emphases in these things are common to the Fathers.  You will find this diversity still present in Orthodoxy.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx


Quote
varying perspectives on the ancestral sin

As we find in the Fathers.



The bottom line is that you do  not want to take Orthodoxy (or even Eastern Catholicism) on its own terms but you want it to conform to your rather Roman ideas of tidiness and consistency.  These presumptions on your part make your usefulness to the ecumenical dialogue questionable.
Don't confuse her with the facts.

The bottom line is that you do  not want to take Orthodoxy (or even Eastern Catholicism) on its own terms but you want it to conform to your rather Roman ideas of tidiness and consistency.  These presumptions on your part make your usefulness to the ecumenical dialogue questionable.

 laugh laugh laugh

Don't you just wish!!



We see it here often.  Your scathing comments and ad hominems when someone does not agree with you and in particular does not agree with your thoughts and your timeline for unity.  You are in such a rush for it that you won't tolerate anything which you see as impeding it.   That is NOT the way that good ecumenists deal with these things.  They listen, they do not impose.  They do not try to make the person on the other side feel small or inadequate or ignorant or out of touch with reality or..... any of the many ways you have of brushing off matters you do not want to hear about.

Yes, she has quite a lumpy rug.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 05:28:07 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #139 on: November 06, 2010, 05:31:20 PM »

varying teachings on the atonement and salvation

Variation and different emphases in these things are common to the Fathers.  You will find this diversity still present in Orthodoxy.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx


Quote
varying perspectives on the ancestral sin

As we find in the Fathers.



The bottom line is that you do  not want to take Orthodoxy (or even Eastern Catholicism) on its own terms but you want it to conform to your rather Roman ideas of tidiness and consistency.  These presumptions on your part make your usefulness to the ecumenical dialogue questionable.
Don't confuse her with the facts.

I didn't realize Orthodoxy accepted different views with these.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #140 on: November 06, 2010, 05:33:07 PM »

varying teachings on the atonement and salvation

Variation and different emphases in these things are common to the Fathers.  You will find this diversity still present in Orthodoxy.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx


Quote
varying perspectives on the ancestral sin

As we find in the Fathers.



The bottom line is that you do  not want to take Orthodoxy (or even Eastern Catholicism) on its own terms but you want it to conform to your rather Roman ideas of tidiness and consistency.  These presumptions on your part make your usefulness to the ecumenical dialogue questionable.
Don't confuse her with the facts.

I didn't realize Orthodoxy accepted different views with these.
Depends on what veiws we are talking about, and what you mean by different. We haven't been given any details here.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #141 on: November 06, 2010, 05:56:01 PM »

Depends on what veiws we are talking about, and what you mean by different. We haven't been given any details here.

You can't read my mind? Pthhh.  Cheesy


I read the link, and still was left with the understanding that Orthodoxy doesn't allow for any 'indelible mark', and may even compare it to a heresy.

Of course, it reminds me of not accepting the valid sacraments of the Latin Catholics ( Grin). Because Orthodoxy seems to acknowledge God's Authority as present in the Church as a body, and not by being transferred during the laying on of hands.

varying teachings on the atonement and salvation

Variation and different emphases in these things are common to the Fathers.  You will find this diversity still present in Orthodoxy.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx

I have only read that Orthodoxy sees the atonement as God defeating death for mankind, and a rejection of Christ being the ultimate sacrifice (Agnus Dei) for the sins of the world.

varying perspectives on the ancestral sin

As we find in the Fathers.

The bottom line is that you do  not want to take Orthodoxy (or even Eastern Catholicism) on its own terms but you want it to conform to your rather Roman ideas of tidiness and consistency.  These presumptions on your part make your usefulness to the ecumenical dialogue questionable.
Don't confuse her with the facts.

My understanding is in Orthodoxy, ancestral sin/original sin is the condition of death. I have not seen a certainty, but mostly a rejection, on the broken spirit (lack of grace) of the human being(relating to Baptism).
Logged


I'm going to need this.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #142 on: November 06, 2010, 06:00:52 PM »


Yes, when it comes to Tradition and dogma, the Orthodox Church is quite monolithic, preserving the Catholic Church from heretical fictions.

Shocking as it might be to you, Orthodox catechis doesn't deal with the heresies of the Vatican-after all, the aim is to teach Orthodoxy to those coming into the Catholic Church-except those who have to adjure the Vatican's heresies to be chrismated/baptized.

Not really.  It is not shocking at all.  I don't need to do comparative doctrine to get a range of assertions from Orthodox catechesis.  All I need to do is to look inside Orthodox teaching.

You mentioned Romania.  I know a little something about Romania.  All of Orthodoxy is divided over this business of the resumption of communion with the Catholic Church.  It's not divided along yea or nay in black and white but there's a dividing line that cuts through the continuum in any event.  You do not speak for everyone though there are those who do speak as you do, and you are small enough to know who is who.

You won't get people responding favorably to me publicly on a Forum like this because...well...they see what you do to me and who needs that? 

But you cannot push us away so easily anymore, brother Catholic, because you are not pushing with all of Orthodoxy when you try...

M.



« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 06:04:27 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #143 on: November 06, 2010, 06:14:41 PM »

Depends on what veiws we are talking about, and what you mean by different. We haven't been given any details here.

You can't read my mind? Pthhh.  Cheesy


I read the link, and still was left with the understanding that Orthodoxy doesn't allow for any 'indelible mark', and may even compare it to a heresy.

You read that whole series of posts and still think that there's a unified approach on the part of all Orthodox believers on the eternal priesthood?...interesting.

M.
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #144 on: November 06, 2010, 06:33:27 PM »


Yes, when it comes to Tradition and dogma, the Orthodox Church is quite monolithic, preserving the Catholic Church from heretical fictions.

Shocking as it might be to you, Orthodox catechis doesn't deal with the heresies of the Vatican-after all, the aim is to teach Orthodoxy to those coming into the Catholic Church-except those who have to adjure the Vatican's heresies to be chrismated/baptized.

Not really.  It is not shocking at all.  I don't need to do comparative doctrine to get a range of assertions from Orthodox catechesis.  All I need to do is to look inside Orthodox teaching.

then do so some time.

Quote
You mentioned Romania.  I know a little something about Romania.

Ce ceva stii despre Romania (what something do you know about Romania)?

Quote
  All of Orthodoxy is divided over this business of the resumption of communion with the Catholic Church.

All of Orthoodxy is united in the communion of the Catholic Church.  As for these talks with the Vatican, the average Latin gives more thought to your "sui juris" ecclesiastical communities than the average (or above average) Orthodox in the Catholic Church gives to those talks.  For one thing, the "talks" are talked about much and its goings on not widely disseminated, perhaps because Met. Zizioulis doesn't want to end up in the Bosphoros.

Quote
  It's not divided along yea or nay in black and white but there's a dividing line that cuts through the continuum in any event.  You do not speak for everyone though there are those who do speak as you do,
...like the Holy Synod of Romania, the Holy Synod of Russia, etc. and even the EP at Georgetown....
Quote
and you are small enough to know who is who.

*wink* *wink*

Quote
You won't get people responding favorably to me publicly on a Forum like this because...well...they see what you do to me and who needs that? 


Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above the master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the good man of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household?
26 Therefore fear them not. For nothing is covered that shall not be revealed: nor hid, that shall not be known.
27 That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops.
32 Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven.
33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

If they can't confess you anonymously on the internet, let alone in public, it can't be much of a tidal of wave of support as you are claiming in the Orthodox Church.

Quote
But you cannot push us away so easily anymore, brother Catholic, because you are not pushing with all of Orthodoxy when you try...
Then it wouldn't be so easy.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #145 on: November 06, 2010, 06:39:57 PM »

Then it wouldn't be so easy.

It isn't that easy or you'd not be so vigilantly working so hard at it here.

In Christ,

M.
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #146 on: November 06, 2010, 06:44:57 PM »

In another thread it has been said that the Holy Mysteries of Chrismation and Holy Orders are inextinguishable.   I have always been taught that that is a Roman Catholic position.   What have the Orthodox members of the list been taught about this?

No Indelible Mark of the Priesthood in Patristic Teaching

"....no evidence concerning the indelible mark theory can be found in
Patristic teaching. On the contrary, the canonical data leave no doubt that
a defrocked priest or bishop, after the decision of the Church to take back
his priesthood, returns to the rank of the laity. The anathematized or the
defrocked are in no way considered to maintain their priesthood."

It was presented to us in our Canon Law class that there is no indelible mark (this was in the context of the canons regarding defrocking, or "returning to the status of a layman").  In fact, the language of the canons of the Church seems to imply no such indelible mark, as they speak of making someone into a layman again, with no rights, responsibilities, or privileges of a clergyman.

Same as Cleveland here. "Defrock" is like "Christmas" or "Easter", a word picked up from Western ecclesiastical usage that is comparable too but doesn't literally translate the original--the literal translation for the primary punishment the canons present for clergy is "laicize", 'to make laity.'

The sacramental authority/power of a priest (or bishop) flows from their position as functionaries of the Church. Remove the position (either through schism or canonical sentence) and you remove the authority/power.

I think his quote the was in the context of dealing with this priest passing through that ended up being deposed , but wondering what/why the heck the guy was doing what he was and not repenting and acting like a priest again.  Of course, I don't know what this priest did (I let him stay in my empty other room for a week while in transit), but it wasn't my business anyways.

And if they are restored to the ranks of the clergy after being laicized?

St. Basil (3rd canonical epistle): "a layman excommunicated may be restored to the degree from which he falls, but a clergyman deposed cannot."

To the extent that it does occur, it's either a technical defect in the original judgement (i.e., a higher Synod's determination that the original sentence was incorrect) or simply a classic example of 'economy' (a bishop or synod, on their own apostolic authority, bending the rule for the good of the Church or the salvation of a soul).

The canons may say that, but my priest thinks otherwise - "A priest is always a priest"

That's certainly the popular opinion -- Melchizedek and all that -- but the canonical tradition is VERY different in letter and spirit.

Excommunication is different than laicization. A former clergyman can be reordained, but if after being laicized he is excommunicated, then he cannot be reordained according to the canon. So yes, ordination, like chrismation (repentant heretics are often brought back in to the Church via Chrismation) can be repeated if removed.

Technically, neither position is correct.

A priest is always a priest, as is a bishop which is why ordination is not repeated if they are defrocked. However, their priesthood is "tied" that is, the priesthood is the tap through which the Holy Spirit flows out sacramentally through the Holy Mysteries, so when the Holy Synod suspends or defrocks a deacon, priest, or bishop, they are simply closing - and sealing - the tap. The tap is still a tap though. Elder Paisios the Athonite was of the opinion that in most cases clergy should not be defrocked, but suspended for life and given jobs in diocesan offices. Note, most cases. Of course I'm sure the Elder is referring to involuntary manslaughter, adultery, and so on. Hence why he said "most cases" ie: not pedophilia, heresy etc.

Depends on what veiws we are talking about, and what you mean by different. We haven't been given any details here.

You can't read my mind? Pthhh.  Cheesy


I read the link, and still was left with the understanding that Orthodoxy doesn't allow for any 'indelible mark', and may even compare it to a heresy.

You read that whole series of posts and still think that there's a unified approach on the part of all Orthodox believers on the eternal priesthood?...interesting.
You read that whole series of posts and still think that there's not a unified approach on the part of all Orthodox believers on the eternal priesthood?...telling
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #147 on: November 06, 2010, 06:46:31 PM »

Then it wouldn't be so easy.

It isn't that easy or you'd not be so vigilantly working so hard at it here.

It is much easier to be vigilant atop the stone wall of a fortress and armed, then being out in the open without a weapon.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #148 on: November 06, 2010, 07:07:10 PM »

Then it wouldn't be so easy.

It isn't that easy or you'd not be so vigilantly working so hard at it here.

It is much easier to be vigilant atop the stone wall of a fortress and armed, then being out in the open without a weapon.

Dear Goliath,

Don't sweat the small stuff!!
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #149 on: November 06, 2010, 07:33:51 PM »

Then it wouldn't be so easy.

It isn't that easy or you'd not be so vigilantly working so hard at it here.

It is much easier to be vigilant atop the stone wall of a fortress and armed, then being out in the open without a weapon.

Dear Goliath,

Don't sweat the small stuff!!
If you could notice from way out there in Oz, you would see that I am not.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #150 on: November 06, 2010, 10:40:35 PM »


You read that whole series of posts and still think that there's a unified approach on the part of all Orthodox believers on the eternal priesthood?...interesting.


Is there some extreme importance to this, enough for the Church to study this aspect and proclaim it in a Council?  

The majority opinion is that the priesthood "belongs" to the office of the bishop and he shares it with his priests.  If he decides not to continue sharing it with a priest that is his prerogative.

Btw, how did the Roman Catholic Church make up its mind?  Where are the papal proclamations?

Btw again, what is the teaching of the Eastern Catholic Churches on this?  I'll guarantee you cannot say because they have never issued any statements.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 10:50:07 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #151 on: November 06, 2010, 10:45:58 PM »


All of Orthodoxy is divided over this business of the resumption of communion with the Catholic Church.


The division does not seem as vast as you make out.  Mary, I think you may be dealing with bad information from sources hostile to the Orthodox.


"2010 Lay Orthodox Survey on Attitudes Toward Orthodox-Catholic Reunion"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30529.0.html

I. Executive Summary

"Sympathetic skepticism" and unwavering faithfulness to Orthodox Tradition
aptly describe the attitudes, some positive, some negative that the 2010
Orthodox Lay People Survey recorded from Orthodox respondents when faced
with the prospect of reunion between the Roman Catholic Church and the
Orthodox Churches. Although most respondents were remarkably open to
exploring reconciliation and even for receiving a Council's decision
authorizing and enabling reunion, Orthodox respondents envisioned reunion
only along strictly Orthodox theological lines, leaving little room for
dogmatic diversity and with a significantly redefined notion of Roman Papal
Primacy if one is to be retained at all. Despite exhaustive mutual
consultation and general councils, reconciliation between the Orthodox and
Catholic Churches may not take place at the grassroots, where lay Orthodox
Christians reject membership within the reconciled Churches, making
reconciliation a mere canonical formality without practical consequences and
real liturgical communion between the Churches.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #152 on: November 06, 2010, 10:50:07 PM »


You read that whole series of posts and still think that there's a unified approach on the part of all Orthodox believers on the eternal priesthood?...interesting.


Is there some extreme importance to this, enough for the Church to study this aspect and proclaim it in a Council? 

Btw, how did the Roman Catholic Church make up its mind?  Where are the papal proclaimation?

Btw again, what is the teaching of the Eastern Catholic Churches on this?  I'll guarantee you cannot say becuse they have never issued any statements.

My point was, in case we loose sight of it, that there is no monolithic Orthodox doctrinal teaching, on a number of issues, and so the claim that there is this rock solid monolithic Orthodoxy is not based in reality but in a kind of romantic assumption and assertion that is treated as fact regardless of reality.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #153 on: November 06, 2010, 10:55:36 PM »


You read that whole series of posts and still think that there's a unified approach on the part of all Orthodox believers on the eternal priesthood?...interesting.


Is there some extreme importance to this, enough for the Church to study this aspect and proclaim it in a Council? 

Btw, how did the Roman Catholic Church make up its mind?  Where are the papal proclaimation?

Btw again, what is the teaching of the Eastern Catholic Churches on this?  I'll guarantee you cannot say becuse they have never issued any statements.

My point was, in case we loose sight of it, that there is no monolithic Orthodox doctrinal teaching, on a number of issues, and so the claim that there is this rock solid monolithic Orthodoxy is not based in reality but in a kind of romantic assumption and assertion that is treated as fact regardless of reality.

You are, and not a little disingenuously <sigh>, dealing with peripherals, or with things where there is variation or lack of clarity in the patristic witness.

You just told Almisry not to "sweat the small stuff".... but you are doing that.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #154 on: November 06, 2010, 11:00:15 PM »


You read that whole series of posts and still think that there's a unified approach on the part of all Orthodox believers on the eternal priesthood?...interesting.


Is there some extreme importance to this, enough for the Church to study this aspect and proclaim it in a Council? 

Btw, how did the Roman Catholic Church make up its mind?  Where are the papal proclaimation?

Btw again, what is the teaching of the Eastern Catholic Churches on this?  I'll guarantee you cannot say becuse they have never issued any statements.

My point was, in case we loose sight of it, that there is no monolithic Orthodox doctrinal teaching, on a number of issues, and so the claim that there is this rock solid monolithic Orthodoxy is not based in reality but in a kind of romantic assumption and assertion that is treated as fact regardless of reality.

You are, and not a little disingenuously <sigh>, dealing with peripherals, or with things where there is variation or lack of clarity in the patristic witness.

You just told Almisry not to "sweat the small stuff".... but you are doing that.

I gave you a list of topics that are hardly insignificant, but that's ok.  You've dismissed it so I don't care.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #155 on: November 06, 2010, 11:02:22 PM »


All of Orthodoxy is divided over this business of the resumption of communion with the Catholic Church.


The division does not seem as vast as you make out.  Mary, I think you may be dealing with bad information from sources hostile to the Orthodox.


"2010 Lay Orthodox Survey on Attitudes Toward Orthodox-Catholic Reunion"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30529.0.html

I. Executive Summary

"Sympathetic skepticism" and unwavering faithfulness to Orthodox Tradition
aptly describe the attitudes, some positive, some negative that the 2010
Orthodox Lay People Survey recorded from Orthodox respondents when faced
with the prospect of reunion between the Roman Catholic Church and the
Orthodox Churches. Although most respondents were remarkably open to
exploring reconciliation and even for receiving a Council's decision
authorizing and enabling reunion, Orthodox respondents envisioned reunion
only along strictly Orthodox theological lines, leaving little room for
dogmatic diversity and with a significantly redefined notion of Roman Papal
Primacy if one is to be retained at all. Despite exhaustive mutual
consultation and general councils, reconciliation between the Orthodox and
Catholic Churches may not take place at the grassroots, where lay Orthodox
Christians reject membership within the reconciled Churches, making
reconciliation a mere canonical formality without practical consequences and
real liturgical communion between the Churches.


From the same survey, speaking of the usual suspects:

V. Limitations and Strengths of this Survey

This survey is not scientifically descriptive of the opinion of all Orthodox lay people worldwide. Limiting the information collection solely to a web-based document distorted the pool of potential respondents to middle-aged to mature males located in North America. Other factors, such as Internet access and conversant knowledge about Orthodox and Catholic issues may have reduced the potential pool of respondents even further. Accessibility due to the survey being in English may have been another major limiting factor in decreasing the number of potential respondents.

The margin of error of this survey is approximately ±10 percent, whether the survey is taken to represent opinions in North America – specifically within the United States – or the world, although the margin of error is more meaningful in the United States for a population of approximately 1.4 million Orthodox faithful than for 300 million Orthodox Christians worldwide. This is due to both the size of the sample, the geographical distribution of the respondents across the world, and lack of significant representations from Orthodox lay faithful located outside North America.

Nevertheless, the opinions of 105 educated Orthodox, North American respondents are very valuable, since these are representative of a portion of Orthodox believers in one of the most influential regions of the world for Orthodoxy. For it is here in North America where most inter-church interaction takes place and where the most practical aspects of reunion would become visible. Moreover, 105 educated Orthodox lay men and women, many of whom may be converts to Orthodoxy from the Catholic Church of from Protestantism, may exert considerable influence over other Orthodox Christians and may sway them in favor or against reunion with the Catholic Church.


Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #156 on: November 06, 2010, 11:11:57 PM »


From the same survey, speaking of the usual suspects:


Blimey, "the usual suspects" pop up again!  laugh It's a strange world where one has a group of anonymous but highly erudite and not-to-be-contradicted Orthodox bishops and priests who confide to one the *real* truth about Orthodoxy.    And on the other hand, one perceives another anonymous group who oppose the first anonymous group and they are known as "the usual suspects."    Is there some underground ecumenical dialogue going on there in central Pennsylvania?   laugh
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #157 on: November 06, 2010, 11:19:48 PM »

"The usual suspects"

People may not know that this survey was conducted by Alexei Krindatch.  He is a research consultant to the  Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas.  Mr Krindatch is a director for research with the Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute in Berkley, CA.

It's an amusing idea that Mary would include the bishops of SCOBA among her "usual suspects" !!  laugh laugh

« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 11:46:34 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #158 on: November 06, 2010, 11:32:36 PM »


I gave you a list of topics that are hardly insignificant, but that's ok.  You've dismissed it so I don't care.


You gave us a shopping list without even the slightest attempt to be specific or to provide the evidence.  Of course I am going to dismiss it.

It's the same as my saying...

The Roman Catholic Church is in an utter crisis of faith. 

65% of its members reject the Real Presence 

97% of its married people use forbidden methods of birth control and live in continuous mortal sin

80% of the priests reject the papal teaching on birth control

80% of Catholic members reject papal infallibility.

70% of members believe that sex outside marriage is not sinful.


 ......... .........



Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #159 on: November 07, 2010, 08:34:59 AM »


I didn't realize Orthodoxy accepted different views with these.


It would be fair to say that we find within Orthodoxy the same rich diversity as found in the Gospels and found in the early Church Fathers.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx


"J.N.D. Kelly further explains: "Scholars have often despaired of discovering any single unifying thought in the Patristic teaching about the redemption. These various theories, however, despite appearances, should not be regarded as in fact mutually incompatible. They were all of them attempts to elucidate the same great truth from different angles; their superficial divergences are often due to the different Biblical images from which they started, and there is no logical reason why, carefully stated, they should not be regarded as complimentary" [42]. And this is precisely what we find in Orthodoxy: "While insisting in this way upon the unity of Christ’s saving economy, the Orthodox Church has never formally endorsed any particular theory of atonement. The Greek Fathers, following the New Testament, employ a rich variety of images to describe what the Savior has done for us. These models are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary, each needs to be balanced by the others. Five models stand out in particular: teacher, sacrifice, ransom, victory and participation" [43]."

Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #160 on: November 07, 2010, 10:57:30 AM »

"The usual suspects"

People may not know that this survey was conducted by Alexei Krindatch.  He is a research consultant to the  Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas.  Mr Krindatch is a director for research with the Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute in Berkley, CA.

It's an amusing idea that Mary would include the bishops of SCOBA among her "usual suspects" !!  laugh laugh



What is not amusing is that you have neglected to grasp the reality that this is a survey of educated laypersons with Internet access...

These are people you and I see every day on the Internet...<smile>...the usual suspects.

We could probably name many of the correspondents from the survey...and the researcher goes on to say that the responses my be limited by the fact that they represent a exceptionally narrow band of Orthodoxy.

At any rate we now know what a 105 educated American Orthodox laymen with Internet access and visibility think about reunion.  I didn't need a survey to tell me that.

M.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 10:59:25 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #161 on: November 07, 2010, 11:03:55 AM »


I didn't realize Orthodoxy accepted different views with these.


It would be fair to say that we find within Orthodoxy the same rich diversity as found in the Gospels and found in the early Church Fathers.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx


"J.N.D. Kelly further explains: "Scholars have often despaired of discovering any single unifying thought in the Patristic teaching about the redemption. These various theories, however, despite appearances, should not be regarded as in fact mutually incompatible. They were all of them attempts to elucidate the same great truth from different angles; their superficial divergences are often due to the different Biblical images from which they started, and there is no logical reason why, carefully stated, they should not be regarded as complimentary" [42]. And this is precisely what we find in Orthodoxy: "While insisting in this way upon the unity of Christ’s saving economy, the Orthodox Church has never formally endorsed any particular theory of atonement. The Greek Fathers, following the New Testament, employ a rich variety of images to describe what the Savior has done for us. These models are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary, each needs to be balanced by the others. Five models stand out in particular: teacher, sacrifice, ransom, victory and participation" [43]."



NOW you are grasping my point.  There is no monolithic Orthodoxy...again so you will have a more difficult time putting words in my mouth....There is no monolithic Orthodoxy.

So that when you demand that Catholics pick up every jot and tittle of Orthodoxy, I can say honesty:

Which one?

As long as there is no monolithic Orthodoxy, at any level, then the claim that reunion can only come when we as Catholics come absolutely in line with some romanticized Orthodox monolith, we can say:

Which one?
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #162 on: November 07, 2010, 11:10:29 AM »

"The usual suspects"

People may not know that this survey was conducted by Alexei Krindatch.  He is a research consultant to the  Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas.  Mr Krindatch is a director for research with the Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute in Berkley, CA.

It's an amusing idea that Mary would include the bishops of SCOBA among her "usual suspects" !!  laugh laugh



What is not amusing is that you have neglected to grasp the reality that this is a survey of educated laypersons with Internet access...

These are people you and I see every day on the Internet...<smile>...the usual suspects.

We could probably name many of the correspondents from the survey...and the researcher goes on to say that the responses my be limited by the fact that they represent a exceptionally narrow band of Orthodoxy.

At any rate we now know what a 105 educated American Orthodox laymen with Internet access and visibility think about reunion.  I didn't need a survey to tell me that.
Can you produce a better survey of those outside of Oz which substantiates any of your claims?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #163 on: November 07, 2010, 11:25:52 AM »


I didn't realize Orthodoxy accepted different views with these.


It would be fair to say that we find within Orthodoxy the same rich diversity as found in the Gospels and found in the early Church Fathers.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx


"J.N.D. Kelly further explains: "Scholars have often despaired of discovering any single unifying thought in the Patristic teaching about the redemption. These various theories, however, despite appearances, should not be regarded as in fact mutually incompatible. They were all of them attempts to elucidate the same great truth from different angles; their superficial divergences are often due to the different Biblical images from which they started, and there is no logical reason why, carefully stated, they should not be regarded as complimentary" [42]. And this is precisely what we find in Orthodoxy: "While insisting in this way upon the unity of Christ’s saving economy, the Orthodox Church has never formally endorsed any particular theory of atonement. The Greek Fathers, following the New Testament, employ a rich variety of images to describe what the Savior has done for us. These models are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary, each needs to be balanced by the others. Five models stand out in particular: teacher, sacrifice, ransom, victory and participation" [43]."




NOW you are grasping my point.  There is no monolithic Orthodoxy...again so you will have a more difficult time putting words in my mouth....There is no monolithic Orthodoxy.

So that when you demand that Catholics pick up every jot and tittle of Orthodoxy, I can say honesty:

Which one?

As long as there is no monolithic Orthodoxy, at any level, then the claim that reunion can only come when we as Catholics come absolutely in line with some romanticized Orthodox monolith, we can say:

Which one?

« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 11:39:56 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #164 on: November 07, 2010, 11:41:38 AM »


I didn't realize Orthodoxy accepted different views with these.


It would be fair to say that we find within Orthodoxy the same rich diversity as found in the Gospels and found in the early Church Fathers.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx


"J.N.D. Kelly further explains: "Scholars have often despaired of discovering any single unifying thought in the Patristic teaching about the redemption. These various theories, however, despite appearances, should not be regarded as in fact mutually incompatible. They were all of them attempts to elucidate the same great truth from different angles; their superficial divergences are often due to the different Biblical images from which they started, and there is no logical reason why, carefully stated, they should not be regarded as complimentary" [42]. And this is precisely what we find in Orthodoxy: "While insisting in this way upon the unity of Christ’s saving economy, the Orthodox Church has never formally endorsed any particular theory of atonement. The Greek Fathers, following the New Testament, employ a rich variety of images to describe what the Savior has done for us. These models are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary, each needs to be balanced by the others. Five models stand out in particular: teacher, sacrifice, ransom, victory and participation" [43]."



NOW you are grasping my point.  There is no monolithic Orthodoxy...again so you will have a more difficult time putting words in my mouth....There is no monolithic Orthodoxy.

Father didn't put those words into your mouth. They fell out of there.

Quote
So that when you demand that Catholics pick up every jot and tittle of Orthodoxy, I can say honesty disingenously:

Fixed that for you.

Quote
Which one?

The one in the diptychs of the Orthodox Church. That same One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which allows "the same rich diversity as found in the Gospels and found in the early Church Fathers" (see that. it's a quote I can quote Fr. Ambrose's very words and cite his name, unlike those nameless "more conservative Orthodox priests" you (see! I did it again, quote the very words and identify the speaker) allege) and also warned Met. Nicolaie and others (I can also quote the official pronouncment, but won't. You know what I am talking about) about communion outside of our Catholic Church.

Some schimatic groups outside the diptychs perhaps cannot distinguish between dogma and theologoumena.  Maybe you should not pay so much attention to groups founded on jots and tittles, and rather pay attention to the Church with the boldface and headlines, i.e. the one Father Ambrose has consistently directed your attention to.

Quote
As long as there is no monolithic Orthodoxy, at any level, then the claim that reunion can only come when we as Catholics come absolutely in line with some romanticized Orthodox monolith, we can say:

Which one?

And we can say:

if you can't identify the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church in the Orthodox diptychs, then it is not the one you want to "reunite" with.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #165 on: November 07, 2010, 11:42:53 AM »


I didn't realize Orthodoxy accepted different views with these.


It would be fair to say that we find within Orthodoxy the same rich diversity as found in the Gospels and found in the early Church Fathers.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx


"J.N.D. Kelly further explains: "Scholars have often despaired of discovering any single unifying thought in the Patristic teaching about the redemption. These various theories, however, despite appearances, should not be regarded as in fact mutually incompatible. They were all of them attempts to elucidate the same great truth from different angles; their superficial divergences are often due to the different Biblical images from which they started, and there is no logical reason why, carefully stated, they should not be regarded as complimentary" [42]. And this is precisely what we find in Orthodoxy: "While insisting in this way upon the unity of Christ’s saving economy, the Orthodox Church has never formally endorsed any particular theory of atonement. The Greek Fathers, following the New Testament, employ a rich variety of images to describe what the Savior has done for us. These models are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary, each needs to be balanced by the others. Five models stand out in particular: teacher, sacrifice, ransom, victory and participation" [43]."




NOW you are grasping my point.  There is no monolithic Orthodoxy...again so you will have a more difficult time putting words in my mouth....There is no monolithic Orthodoxy.

So that when you demand that Catholics pick up every jot and tittle of Orthodoxy, I can say honesty:

Which one?

As long as there is no monolithic Orthodoxy, at any level, then the claim that reunion can only come when we as Catholics come absolutely in line with some romanticized Orthodox monolith, we can say:

Which one?

Was that an echo?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #166 on: November 07, 2010, 11:50:57 AM »


if you can't identify the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church in the Orthodox diptychs, then it is not the one you want to "reunite" with.

As a Catholic I do profess One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and I do that in Catholic and in Orthodox Churches.   There are not two faiths.  There are not two Churches.

And when Communion between the two is restored your poison pen will run out of ink, brother Catholic.

Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #167 on: November 07, 2010, 02:53:33 PM »


And when Communion between the two is restored your poison pen will run out of ink, brother Catholic.[/size

That statement is just an emotional backlash and typifies what I have been saying that when your own thoughts are opposed you fall back on personal attack. 

Your attack is quite unfair to Ialmisry whose position is upheld by the SCOBA Survey we are discussing.   His opinions on the matter align with what educated Orthodox in the United States are thinking on union.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #168 on: November 07, 2010, 02:59:40 PM »


And when Communion between the two is restored your poison pen will run out of ink, brother Catholic.[/size

That statement is just an emotional backlash and typifies what I have been saying that when your own thoughts are opposed you fall back on personal attack. 

Your attack is quite unfair to Ialmisry whose position is upheld by the SCOBA Survey we are discussing.   His opinions on the matter align with what educated Orthodox in the United States are thinking on union.

My poison pen commentary is clearly in the same spirit as your attacks on my motives and expression and of Isa's telling me that I am from Oz.

There's no difference that I can see, except the obvious confessional differences.

When you stop living in the glass house then perhaps you can resume throwing stones at me, but till then I don't expect that it is justified.

M.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #169 on: November 07, 2010, 03:31:05 PM »


And when Communion between the two is restored your poison pen will run out of ink, brother Catholic.[/size

That statement is just an emotional backlash and typifies what I have been saying that when your own thoughts are opposed you fall back on personal attack.  

Your attack is quite unfair to Ialmisry whose position is upheld by the SCOBA Survey we are discussing.   His opinions on the matter align with what educated Orthodox in the United States are thinking on union.

My poison pen commentary is clearly in the same spirit as your attacks on my motives and expression and of Isa's telling me that I am from Oz.

There's no difference that I can see, except the obvious confessional differences.

When you stop living in the glass house then perhaps you can resume throwing stones at me, but till then I don't expect that it is justified.

M.

The fact remains that Isa's position on union is upheld by the survey.

NB: I have to apologise for confusing the author of this survey with the author of another recent survey.  The one of which we are speaking was of course the work of the Roman Catholic Teófilo de Jesús.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 03:36:44 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #170 on: November 07, 2010, 04:56:33 PM »


if you can't identify the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church in the Orthodox diptychs, then it is not the one you want to "reunite" with.

As a Catholic I do profess One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and I do that in Catholic and in Orthodox Churches.

"'These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me."  Our Head said that.

You can't be a little pregnant. A little leaven leavens the whole up, and we serve only the bread of sincerity and Truth, the Bread of Life.

James 1:5 But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God who giveth to all men abundantly and upbraideth not. And it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea, which is moved and carried about by the wind.
7 Therefore let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is inconstant in all his ways.

Why do you want to serve two masters? You claim you have your fill at the Vatican's altars. Why do you want to come to ours?

Quote
There are not two faiths.

There are not two True (i.e. Ortho-) Faiths (-dox).

Quote
There are not two Churches.

There is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which confesses the Orthodox Faith, and many ecclesiastical communities which do not. Why would one in the One Church want to go an ecclesiatical community as well?

Quote
And when Communion between the two is restored your poison pen will run out of ink, brother Catholic.

If the Vatican confessed the Orthodox Faith and was received into Catholic communion, my pen wouldn't need any ink, poisoned or otherwise.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,835



« Reply #171 on: November 07, 2010, 05:02:19 PM »


And when Communion between the two is restored your poison pen will run out of ink, brother Catholic.[/size

That statement is just an emotional backlash and typifies what I have been saying that when your own thoughts are opposed you fall back on personal attack. 

Your attack is quite unfair to Ialmisry whose position is upheld by the SCOBA Survey we are discussing.   His opinions on the matter align with what educated Orthodox in the United States are thinking on union.

My poison pen commentary is clearly in the same spirit as your attacks on my motives and expression and of Isa's telling me that I am from Oz.

I'm must guessing, because you conceal the names of your Orthodox informants, will not quote their words, will not identify their jurisdiction/Church.  But what you report sounds like it is from Oz. Where you are from I don't know.  Just where you seem to get your information on the Orthodox Church from.

Quote
There's no difference that I can see, except the obvious confessional differences.
Do look harder.

Quote
When you stop living in the glass house then perhaps you can resume throwing stones at me, but till then I don't expect that it is justified.
The glass house Father lives in is from the transparency of the sources he cites: you can see right through them.  Nothing esoteric or hidden.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Romanicus
Molestus molestorum Dei.
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: the fanatical one
Posts: 40



« Reply #172 on: April 06, 2011, 08:44:37 PM »


NOW you are grasping my point.  There is no monolithic Orthodoxy...again so you will have a more difficult time putting words in my mouth....There is no monolithic Orthodoxy.

So that when you demand that Catholics pick up every jot and tittle of Orthodoxy, I can say honesty:

Which one?

As long as there is no monolithic Orthodoxy, at any level, then the claim that reunion can only come when we as Catholics come absolutely in line with some romanticized Orthodox monolith, we can say:

Which one?

The one that doesn't believe in Papal Infallibility and Papal Primacy. I guess that includes all of them.

Yup, once the foundation of your church- the Papacy- collapses, by having these two doctrines removed, everything else will follow of its own accord.

The next thing to go would have to be the "Filioque". That's enough for starters.
Logged

"Its later than you think." -- Fr. Seraphim Rose
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,128



« Reply #173 on: April 06, 2011, 09:37:01 PM »

Yup, once the foundation of your church- the Papacy- collapses, by having these two doctrines removed, everything else will follow of its own accord.

You mean like what happened to the Church of England since the 16th century?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Tags: communion merry go round unionism 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.199 seconds with 66 queries.