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Author Topic: Fellow Catholics: should we want to commune with the EO?  (Read 9608 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2010, 08:37:30 PM »

[But I do know from reading here on this Forum that you are not universally representative.

I also understand that if Orthodox bishops all took the hard line that you take here, there would be no bilateral discussions at all.   


You will have observed the slowing down of the International Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue.   It has happened because our bishops have at last decided to take an immediate interest and a hands-on approach and not to leave the Dialogue in the control of the small group of ecumenicats such as Metropolitan John Zizioulas, titular of Pergamon. 

Before the meeting on Cyprus in October 2009 the bishops of the Greek Church studied the document composed a year earlier on Crete which was created to form the basis of the discussion on Cyprus  -- and they were horrified by the extent to which the document appeared to be receptive to unorthodox teaching and especially on ecclesiology and the concept of a universal primacy.

So they clamped down on the Dialogue.  At their Synod prior to Cyprus the bishops ordered that no Statements should be issued by the International Dialogue until they had been examined and approved by the bishops. 

Metropolitan Zizioulas was thoroughly alarmed by this, and the word enraged is not unfitting for his angry reaction.   He wrote a nasty letter to the Greek bishops accusing them of being obscurantist and of making themselves look medieval in front of their flocks.   His letter is on the web and I shall find it.   The bishops replied; they had the good sense to ignore +Zizioulas' crassness and simply rejected his accusations.

Since then you will notice that neither Cyprus 2009 nor Vienna 2010 have released any Joint Statements.

The bishops, hardliners on matters doctrinal, are now the adjudicators of the Dialogue.  Glory to God!
Glory to God indeed!

Not to be forgotten, the Vatican rejected the statement from the council of Ravenna.
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« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2010, 08:42:26 PM »

I haven't noticed any slowing down at all.  I haven't noticed any truly negative bombshells from any quarter either...except of course for the usual suspects.

It is to be expected that the bishops be involved, after all.  It would be far more alarming if they were not!!

There's nothing of real negative substance here in your comments except some mild attempt on your part to sour the soup.

When the talks are cut off, and the Catholic Church shakes the dust from her sandals, then I'll pack my bags and you will have seen the last of me, till we are all called to judgment.

[But I do know from reading here on this Forum that you are not universally representative.

I also understand that if Orthodox bishops all took the hard line that you take here, there would be no bilateral discussions at all.   


You will have observed the slowing down of the International Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue.   It has happened because our bishops have at last decided to take an immediate interest and a hands-on approach and not to leave the Dialogue in the control of the small group of ecumenicats such as Metropolitan John Zizioulas, titular of Pergamon. 

Before the meeting on Cyprus in October 2009 the bishops of the Greek Church studied the document composed a year earlier on Crete which was created to form the basis of the discussion on Cyprus  -- and they were horrified by the extent to which the document appeared to be receptive to unorthodox teaching and especially on ecclesiology and the concept of a universal primacy.

So they clamped down on the Dialogue.  At their Synod prior to Cyprus the bishops ordered that no Statements should be issued by the International Dialogue until they had been examined and approved by the bishops. 

Metropolitan Zizioulas was thoroughly alarmed by this, and the word enraged is not unfitting for his angry reaction.   He wrote a nasty letter to the Greek bishops accusing them of being obscurantist and of making themselves look medieval in front of their flocks.   His letter is on the web and I shall find it.   The bishops replied; they had the good sense to ignore +Zizioulas' crassness and simply rejected his accusations.

Since then you will notice that neither Cyprus 2009 nor Vienna 2010 have released any Joint Statements.

The bishops, hardliners on matters doctrinal, are now the adjudicators of the Dialogue.  Glory to God!
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« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2010, 08:49:18 PM »

There was quite a lot of bad feeling on the part of Met Zizioulas who realised that his guns had been spiked and he could not control the International Catholic-Orthodox Meetings anymore.  In effect, he has become accountable to his brother bishops and their scrutiny. He wrote a mean and threatening letter to the Greek bishops.

You can find that letter, and the response of the Greek Synod of Bishops  and quite a lot of other documentation here

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/root.en.aspx

and here

http://www.oodegr.com/english/index.htm

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« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2010, 08:58:57 PM »

There was quite a lot of bad feeling on the part of Met Zizioulas who realised that his guns had been spiked and he could not control the International Catholic-Orthodox Meetings anymore.  In effect, he has become accountable to his brother bishops and their scrutiny. He wrote a mean and threatening letter to the Greek bishops.

You can find that letter, and the response of the Greek Synod of Bishops  and quite a lot of other documentation here

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/root.en.aspx

and here

http://www.oodegr.com/english/index.htm



Yes.  I think I mentioned the usual suspects.
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« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2010, 08:59:40 PM »

I haven't noticed any slowing down at all.  I haven't noticed any truly negative bombshells from any quarter either...except of course for the usual suspects.

It is to be expected that the bishops be involved, after all.  It would be far more alarming if they were not!!


Dear Mary,

Those of us who have been keenly following the dialogue over the years have been very aware that the bishops have *not* bothered to involve themselves.  And yes, I fully agree with you - their lack of involvement has been alarming.  It has almost been as if the dialogue has been a private club for a small group of interested participants.   There were never any reactions from the bishops about previously issued Statements.  They were simply allowed to drop into the bin of ecumenical history with a "ho hum, yawn" from our bishops.  You must have been aware of this?

Silly digs about my "trying to sour the milk" drag this discussion down.
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« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2010, 09:06:46 PM »

There was quite a lot of bad feeling on the part of Met Zizioulas who realised that his guns had been spiked and he could not control the International Catholic-Orthodox Meetings anymore.  In effect, he has become accountable to his brother bishops and their scrutiny. He wrote a mean and threatening letter to the Greek bishops.

You can find that letter, and the response of the Greek Synod of Bishops  and quite a lot of other documentation here

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/root.en.aspx

and here

http://www.oodegr.com/english/index.htm



Yes.  I think I mentioned the usual suspects.

How quaint!  How superciliously dismissive!  You consider the Synod of the Bishops of Greece (60 of them) as "the usual suspects"! 

Mind telling us which bishops you approve of?  Who are the good guys?

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« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2010, 09:08:34 PM »


How quaint!  How superciliously...

Su.. Suuuper... ss... super fragilistic expialidocious!  Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2010, 09:18:35 PM »

There was quite a lot of bad feeling on the part of Met Zizioulas who realised that his guns had been spiked and he could not control the International Catholic-Orthodox Meetings anymore.  In effect, he has become accountable to his brother bishops and their scrutiny. He wrote a mean and threatening letter to the Greek bishops.

You can find that letter, and the response of the Greek Synod of Bishops  and quite a lot of other documentation here

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/root.en.aspx

and here

http://www.oodegr.com/english/index.htm



Yes.  I think I mentioned the usual suspects.

How quaint!  How superciliously dismissive!  You consider the Synod of the Bishops of Greece (60 of them) as "the usual suspects"! 

Mind telling us which bishops you approve of?  Who are the good guys?


Obviously Met. Nicolaie.
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« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2010, 09:41:52 PM »

There was quite a lot of bad feeling on the part of Met Zizioulas who realised that his guns had been spiked and he could not control the International Catholic-Orthodox Meetings anymore.  In effect, he has become accountable to his brother bishops and their scrutiny. He wrote a mean and threatening letter to the Greek bishops.

You can find that letter, and the response of the Greek Synod of Bishops  and quite a lot of other documentation here

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/root.en.aspx

and here

http://www.oodegr.com/english/index.htm



Yes.  I think I mentioned the usual suspects.

How quaint!  How superciliously dismissive!  You consider the Synod of the Bishops of Greece (60 of them) as "the usual suspects"! 

Mind telling us which bishops you approve of?  Who are the good guys?

Christ himself calls for us to be one.  I leave all that good-guy, bad-guy business in His hands.

When the time comes, we will be one.  And I am without a shadow of a doubt that time is coming much faster than you wish and in ways that neither one of us will have imagined.

I'll leave you and Isa to your wailing wall...

 Smiley
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« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2010, 09:50:11 PM »

Christ himself calls for us to be one. 
How would it come about? Say for example, between Roman Catholics and Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists or Lutherans. They allow women clergy. Would then the Roman Catholic Church follow the word of Scripture and the call of Our Divine Lord to be one with them?
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« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2010, 10:07:15 PM »

Christ himself calls for us to be one. 
How would it come about? Say for example, between Roman Catholics and Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists or Lutherans. They allow women clergy. Would then the Roman Catholic Church follow the word of Scripture and the call of Our Divine Lord to be one with them?

First look to those Churches who share Apostolic Succession.

Ever ask yourself why the Catholic Church is no a member of the World Council?

Seems the answer to your question is evident...don't you think?...
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« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2010, 10:24:31 PM »

Christ himself calls for us to be one. 
How would it come about? Say for example, between Roman Catholics and Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists or Lutherans. They allow women clergy. Would then the Roman Catholic Church follow the word of Scripture and the call of Our Divine Lord to be one with them?

There have been many Episcopalians (American branch of the Anglican Communion) and Lutherans who have been flocking to Roman Catholicism (and Orthodoxy, as well) to escape such an example. You may have heard of the anglicanorum coetibus. It's a measure that is becoming increasingly popular among the conservative Episcopalians/CofE and especially members of the Continuing Anglican movement (conservative Anglicans who separated from the increasingly liberal Episcopal church)
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« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2010, 10:41:30 PM »

Christ himself calls for us to be one. 
How would it come about? Say for example, between Roman Catholics and Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists or Lutherans. They allow women clergy. Would then the Roman Catholic Church follow the word of Scripture and the call of Our Divine Lord to be one with them?

First look to those Churches who share Apostolic Succession.

Ever ask yourself why the Catholic Church is no a member of the World Council?

Seems the answer to your question is evident...don't you think?...
One problem is that some of the Orthdox do not accept the Apostolic succession of the RCC.
And why do not RC accept the apostolic succession of the Anglicans. The RCC accepts the apostolic succession of the Old Catholics and some of the Old Catholic bishops have been involved in the ordination of the Anglicans. And further, some of the Orthodox had accepted the Apostolic succession of the Anglicans.
So, no it is not all that evident as to what the answer is. Yes. Christ prayed that His followers be one, but there are obstacles to that and these obstacles are appearing from all sides.
The RCC is not going to say, OK, Christ prayed that we should all be one, so let's join with the Anglicans and Lutherans in spite of our differences and allow intercommunion. Well, if the RCC is not going to follow the road to intercommunion with the Anglicans and Lutherans, then why is it out of order for the EO to say that they are reluctant to follow the road to intercommunion with the RCC ?
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« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2010, 10:58:50 PM »

The Anglican issue has something to do, I think, with the episcopal ordination formulas. The decree declaring their orders null and void probably went too far, but as long as they are outside the Roman Catholic communion, there will always be a question mark over their orders. The most optimistic scenario in the Roman church is conditional re-ordination for those who cross the Tiber. This is especially true now in the era of female C of E bishops and priests, which had the effect also of closing the door on EO/Anglican "ecumenism". The "Dutch touch" expression is amusing.

I've sometimes compared the relationship between Anglicans, Anglo-Catholics and Roman Catholics with that of Roman Catholics, Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #104 on: November 05, 2010, 11:03:24 PM »

One problem is that some of the Orthdox do not accept the Apostolic succession of the RCC.
Eastern understanding of Apostolic succession is different than the west. The west sees the succession valid, and therefore, if held correctly, the sacraments are valid. The east sees lack of communion with the true church to invalidate the sacraments.

And why do not RC accept the apostolic succession of the Anglicans. The RCC accepts the apostolic succession of the Old Catholics and some of the Old Catholic bishops have been involved in the ordination of the Anglicans. And further, some of the Orthodox had accepted the Apostolic succession of the Anglicans.

Since the beginning the Anglicans have been a melting pot of different theologies (catholic, calvin, and evangelic). The Anglican calvinists openly rejected apostolic succession. Pope Leo XIII, said %&!@, if you don't even have the faith in your Apostolic Succession, your very orders are invalid as far as we are concerned.

Now, even though that's a sweeping statement in the RCC. Anglicans are still not a singular faith. Anglo-Catholics are almost identical in faith to the Old Catholics. Therefore, some Anglicans having theological union with the RCC or Old Catholics does not speak for Anglicanism as a whole.

(Much of this problem is due to the origins of the Anglican Church. The Anglican Church was a political split. King Henry VIII was still very Catholic. When he punched his ticket, Calvinists started making reformations in the church. How? Because, the Anglican church has never had much of an actual written doctrine. That which has been written by some is rejected by others (39 Articles). So when the homo-bishop fiasco came around, the bishops claimed to be unable to excommunicate for heresy due to lack of official church doctrine (&@*!))


So, no it is not all that evident as to what the answer is. Yes. Christ prayed that His followers be one, but there are obstacles to that and these obstacles are appearing from all sides.
The RCC is not going to say, OK, Christ prayed that we should all be one, so let's join with the Anglicans and Lutherans in spite of our differences and allow intercommunion. Well, if the RCC is not going to follow the road to intercommunion with the Anglicans and Lutherans, then why is it out of order for the EO to say that they are reluctant to follow the road to intercommunion with the RCC ?

So the RCC is making efforts for those that want communion to feel comfortable in doing so. For example, the anglicanorum coetibus allows Anglicans to keep the Anglican tradition, but simultaneously affirm Catholic teaching.
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« Reply #105 on: November 05, 2010, 11:08:35 PM »

Christ himself calls for us to be one. 
How would it come about? Say for example, between Roman Catholics and Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists or Lutherans. They allow women clergy. Would then the Roman Catholic Church follow the word of Scripture and the call of Our Divine Lord to be one with them?

First look to those Churches who share Apostolic Succession.

Ever ask yourself why the Catholic Church is no a member of the World Council?

Seems the answer to your question is evident...don't you think?...
One problem is that some of the Orthdox do not accept the Apostolic succession of the RCC.


Then we would not want to generalize strongly on the qualifier "some" would we? 

We have a very long history of interaction and it is clear, outside of this Forum, that many more Orthodox believers do indeed recognize that the Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession and is closer to Orthodoxy than the others you mention.  So you are asking the wrong question actually which is why you remain a bit confused by a more confident declarative.

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« Reply #106 on: November 05, 2010, 11:13:00 PM »

One problem is that some of the Orthdox do not accept the Apostolic succession of the RCC.
Eastern understanding of Apostolic succession is different than the west. The west sees the succession valid, and therefore, if held correctly, the sacraments are valid. The east sees lack of communion with the true church to invalidate the sacraments.

That statement would get a pass among many of the Orthodox on this Forum, but it does not hold up historically, so there's good reason to work on these things by backing up and taking the long view.

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« Reply #107 on: November 05, 2010, 11:14:39 PM »

BTW, if you want to know what an Anglo-Catholic liturgy looks like. It's pretty much an Latin Mass said in English. The new missal translation set for next November reminds me of it.
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« Reply #108 on: November 05, 2010, 11:15:53 PM »

One problem is that some of the Orthdox do not accept the Apostolic succession of the RCC.
Eastern understanding of Apostolic succession is different than the west. The west sees the succession valid, and therefore, if held correctly, the sacraments are valid. The east sees lack of communion with the true church to invalidate the sacraments.

That statement would get a pass among many of the Orthodox on this Forum, but it does not hold up historically, so there's good reason to work on these things by backing up and taking the long view.

It's definitely a generalization. However, when Orthodox deny the sacraments/apostolic succession of the west, it is due to this understanding.
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« Reply #109 on: November 05, 2010, 11:22:58 PM »

Eastern understanding of Apostolic succession is different than the west. The west sees the succession valid, and therefore, if held correctly, the sacraments are valid. The east sees lack of communion with the true church to invalidate the sacraments.

That statement would get a pass among many of the Orthodox on this Forum, but it does not hold up historically, so there's good reason to work on these things by backing up and taking the long view.



Azurestone is right. It most certainly does hold up historically because it is the teaching of our Holy Fathers.

Here is what Saint Basil the Great wrote on this matter.  See message 25 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28315.msg446353.html#msg446353
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« Reply #110 on: November 05, 2010, 11:23:55 PM »

That was me! I'm taking ma' ball and I'm goin' home!   Grin
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« Reply #111 on: November 05, 2010, 11:36:26 PM »

There was quite a lot of bad feeling on the part of Met Zizioulas who realised that his guns had been spiked and he could not control the International Catholic-Orthodox Meetings anymore.  In effect, he has become accountable to his brother bishops and their scrutiny. He wrote a mean and threatening letter to the Greek bishops.

You can find that letter, and the response of the Greek Synod of Bishops  and quite a lot of other documentation here

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/root.en.aspx

and here

http://www.oodegr.com/english/index.htm



Yes.  I think I mentioned the usual suspects.

How quaint!  How superciliously dismissive!  You consider the Synod of the Bishops of Greece (60 of them) as "the usual suspects"! 

Mind telling us which bishops you approve of?  Who are the good guys?

Christ himself calls for us to be one.  I leave all that good-guy, bad-guy business in His hands.

He puts Himself in our hands (in Father's case, quite literally). We should not give Him to you, nor should we receive Him (or bread) from someone who would give Him to you.  That's the point in quesiton of the OP.

Quote
When the time comes, we will be one. 

When you all confess the Orthodox Faith, you can join us at any time.

Quote
And I am without a shadow of a doubt that time is coming much faster than you wish and in ways that neither one of us will have imagined.

You all in the Orthodox catechumenate?

Quote
I'll leave you and Isa to your wailing wall...

You're the only one bewailing anything. Father and I, for instance, are quite happy about the actions of the Church of Romania on Met. Nicolaie and the Church of Greece on shortening Met. Zizioulis' leash.
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« Reply #112 on: November 05, 2010, 11:42:15 PM »

Christ himself calls for us to be one. 
How would it come about? Say for example, between Roman Catholics and Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists or Lutherans. They allow women clergy. Would then the Roman Catholic Church follow the word of Scripture and the call of Our Divine Lord to be one with them?

First look to those Churches who share Apostolic Succession.

Ever ask yourself why the Catholic Church is no a member of the World Council?

Seems the answer to your question is evident...don't you think?...

Since several Churches of the Catholic Church are members of the World Council of Churches (something I'm not crazy about. The Catholic Church in Georgia has dropped out), no.
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« Reply #113 on: November 05, 2010, 11:47:19 PM »

That was me! I'm taking ma' ball and I'm goin' home!   Grin


Come back with the ball!  I've changed it!   laugh
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« Reply #114 on: November 05, 2010, 11:52:34 PM »

Eastern understanding of Apostolic succession is different than the west. The west sees the succession valid, and therefore, if held correctly, the sacraments are valid. The east sees lack of communion with the true church to invalidate the sacraments.

That statement would get a pass among many of the Orthodox on this Forum, but it does not hold up historically, so there's good reason to work on these things by backing up and taking the long view.



Azurestone is right. It most certainly does hold up historically because it is the teaching of our Holy Fathers.

Here is what Saint Basil the Great wrote on this matter.  See message 25 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28315.msg446353.html#msg446353

Yes.  I know you and Stanley are buds.

There are a few details that have to be worked out before St. Basil can be invoked.  If he could be invoked without qualification, as I have said, we would not be discussing anything at all.
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« Reply #115 on: November 05, 2010, 11:57:15 PM »

Eastern understanding of Apostolic succession is different than the west. The west sees the succession valid, and therefore, if held correctly, the sacraments are valid. The east sees lack of communion with the true church to invalidate the sacraments.

That statement would get a pass among many of the Orthodox on this Forum, but it does not hold up historically, so there's good reason to work on these things by backing up and taking the long view.



Azurestone is right. It most certainly does hold up historically because it is the teaching of our Holy Fathers.

Here is what Saint Basil the Great wrote on this matter.  See message 25 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28315.msg446353.html#msg446353

Yes.  I know you and Stanley are buds.


What's the principle at work here?  When two buds agree they must be wrong?   laugh
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« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2010, 12:00:09 AM »


When you all confess the Orthodox Faith, you can join us at any time.


I'd have difficulty trying to figure out which one.  Best we resume communion and keep our individual integrity and expressions.

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« Reply #117 on: November 06, 2010, 12:15:55 AM »


When you all confess the Orthodox Faith, you can join us at any time.


I'd have difficulty trying to figure out which one.

The One, Holy, Cathoic and Apostolic Church, the one which confesses the Orthodox Faith.


Quote
 Best we resume communion and keep our individual integrity and expressions.

Entering into communion with anyone not confessing the Orthodox Faith and so not a member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church would mean the loss of all integrity, individually and collectively, and express rejection of the Faith delievered once and for all to the saints and preserved by the Fathers. Best we not do that.
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« Reply #118 on: November 06, 2010, 02:48:08 AM »

Resumed communion is coming, and coming at a rate that you cannot stop.
It already came, and it stopped dead. It's called Eastern Catholicism.
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« Reply #119 on: November 06, 2010, 08:04:40 AM »


When you all confess the Orthodox Faith, you can join us at any time.


I'd have difficulty trying to figure out which one.

The One, Holy, Cathoic and Apostolic Church, the one which confesses the Orthodox Faith.


Quote
 Best we resume communion and keep our individual integrity and expressions.

Entering into communion with anyone not confessing the Orthodox Faith and so not a member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church would mean the loss of all integrity, individually and collectively, and express rejection of the Faith delievered once and for all to the saints and preserved by the Fathers. Best we not do that.

I sit here with about ten or twelve different books used to catechize Orthodox catechumen in parishes with which I am familiar.  Each one of those texts tells a different story on some major questions of sacramental theology or some other aspect of Orthodox belief that goes beyond what one might call small "t" tradition.  Perhaps I am too selective in my approach to theology and doctrine but that kind of divergence does not appeal to me.  I see the fruits of it here on the Internet daily.

When Orthodoxy resumes communion with the Catholic Church, there will be no Unia [used in its historic sense since there is no other PC word to substitute for it].  Those days are gone.

Each Orthodox particular Church would enter into communion with full jurisdictional integrity.  The doctrinal and theological inconsistencies would either remain or be regularized internally to Orthodoxy.

My own Catholic brothers and sisters will be confused at first because most of them are Roman rite and have a tendency to think that the Roman rite IS the universal Church, but I am sure that there will be sufficiently intelligent people left in the Catholic Church to take care of their own and help them to grasp the historical reality that we were never, black and white, identical in any event.

So most of your fear mongering is just that.

I am not suggesting that things will not have to be worked through systematically and in good time, but the fear baiting is not a realistic assessment of what is coming.
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« Reply #120 on: November 06, 2010, 10:05:31 AM »


I sit here with about ten or twelve different books used to catechize Orthodox catechumen in parishes with which I am familiar.  Each one of those texts tells a different story on some major questions of sacramental theology or some other aspect of Orthodox belief that goes beyond what one might call small "t" tradition.  Perhaps I am too selective in my approach to theology and doctrine but that kind of divergence does not appeal to me. 
.


If you are sitting there with the books then it will not be anything difficult for you to give us, say, three major differences in Orthodox theology so that we may have an idea of what you mean.

Frankly, I don't think you will since you usually find ways to slide out of such requests.  We have noticed that asking you to prove anything is seen by you as an aggressive act.

In some ways we are not so demanding of "consistency" as you are.  Take the question of whether the wine poured into the chalice for a Pre-sanctified Liturgy is itself transmuted into the Blood of Christ when the consecrated Bread tinged with the consecrated Blood from a precious Liturgy is placed in it.   Some Churches believe that it is, some Churches believe that it is not.    You know, it simply does not matter overly much.  Maybe one Church is right, maybe all are right, maybe all are wrong.   

But perhaps you could offer some examples from your books...?

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« Reply #121 on: November 06, 2010, 10:13:35 AM »


When Orthodoxy resumes communion with the Catholic Church, there will be no Unia [used in its historic sense since there is no other PC word to substitute for it].  Those days are gone.

Each Orthodox particular Church would enter into communion with full jurisdictional integrity.


Will it?  Not one of your Eastern Catholic Churches has autocephalous status.  That is recognised only for the Church of Rome.  The other 22 Catholic Churches are held in the lesser status of autonomous Churches and dependent on Rome.

Will our Churches truly retains their "full jurisdictional integrity" as autocephalous Churches?  Will the Patriarchs have equal authority to the Pope of the Church of Rome?  Will the Pope be their equal and the equal of every other bishop at inter-church and international synods?  Will the Pope have one vote as has every Patriarch and every bishop?

I think it is not truthful to tell us that our "full jurisdictional integrity" will be maintained.
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« Reply #122 on: November 06, 2010, 10:38:07 AM »


When Orthodoxy resumes communion with the Catholic Church, there will be no Unia [used in its historic sense since there is no other PC word to substitute for it].  Those days are gone.

Each Orthodox particular Church would enter into communion with full jurisdictional integrity.


Will it?  Not one of your Eastern Catholic Churches has autocephalous status.  That is recognised only for the Church of Rome.  The other 22 Catholic Churches are held in the lesser status of autonomous Churches and dependent on Rome.

Will our Churches truly retains their "full jurisdictional integrity" as autocephalous Churches?  Will the Patriarchs have equal authority to the Pope of the Church of Rome?  Will the Pope be their equal and the equal of every other bishop at inter-church and international synods?  Will the Pope have one vote as has every Patriarch and every bishop?

I think it is not truthful to tell us that our "full jurisdictional integrity" will be maintained.

It is the only way that it can happen.  It must happen that way and the most recent of our popes and our current pope knows it. 

Do you think that the personal prelature offered to the Anglo-Catholics has thrilled Roman rite bishops and the Curia?  Do you think it was easy to push through?  It was not easy and I know that with certainty, because by some strange stroke of nature, I was allowed to see the process as an insider, so I can say so in general terms and remain within bounds.

I am still arguing with Roman rite friends and correspondents that rather than being absorbed into the Roman rite, the next move for the Anglican Prelate will be to make the transfers successfully, hold in patience for a time, and then ask for full autocephalous status, and become in its own rite, a particular Church.

ALL of this is in preparation for what is to come with the Orthodox Churches.  And because you are all already in control of your ecclesial and theological and liturgical lives, and have been for some centuries, there will be no need for any kind of interim phase, and there will already be instances of particular Churches in communion with Rome so that the organizational image will be less shocking that it would be if the Roman rite still saw itself as THE universal Church.  Those days have gone from us,  and will never again return.

There is no other way.  Certainly I cannot predict the particulars nor the day and hour, but the direction is already quite evident, and I am also without doubt that Orthodox hierarchs see what I see with even greater precision.

So you may protest till you are blue, but it is coming and if we cannot speak of it with one another in terms that are positive and filled with the hope of a renewed union in faith and hope and love, then indeed we will be eclipsed by the power of the Holy Spirit and the inspired hope of the human spirit.
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« Reply #123 on: November 06, 2010, 10:54:42 AM »

/\  Mary, drear one, you have fallen into the prideful spirit of your Roman brethren.   

Rome will not be permitted to determine the conditions of any unity.

Rome has been ill and ailing for the last 1000 years, distorting doctrines, unleashing persecution on the Orthodox Church and her faithful, trying to destroy us and divide us with imitations of Orthodox Churches.  And now you want us to offer obeisance and submit to the Pope's plans for our integration!   God forbid!   Rome will need many long years and even centuries of slow restoration to spiritual and doctrinal health - and even then it is doubtful if it will regain the place it held in the first millennium and in the diptychs.  One does not hand universal governance to an institution which has been ailing for 1000 years.

I have said this before.
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« Reply #124 on: November 06, 2010, 11:01:40 AM »

/\  Mary, drear one, you have fallen into the prideful spirit of your Roman brethren.   

Rome will not be permitted to determine the conditions of any unity.

Rome has been ill and ailing for the last 1000 years, distorting doctrines, unleashing persecution on the Orthodox Church and her faithful, trying to destroy us and divide us with imitations of Orthodox Churches.  And now you want us to offer obeisance and submit to the Pope's plans for our integration!   God forbid!   Rome will need many long years and even centuries of slow restoration to spiritual and doctrinal health - and even then it is doubtful if it will regain the place it held in the first millennium and in the diptychs.  One does not hand universal governance to an institution which has been ailing for 1000 years.

I have said this before.

But praise be to God, the doctor has arrived!: Bishop Siluan of Rome of the Holy Synod of Romania. Togethr with the Greek Metropolitan of Italy forming the Episcopal Assembly, we are starting to have a restoration of Orthodox Rome.
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« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2010, 11:05:56 AM »


When Orthodoxy resumes communion with the Catholic Church, there will be no Unia [used in its historic sense since there is no other PC word to substitute for it].  Those days are gone.

Each Orthodox particular Church would enter into communion with full jurisdictional integrity.


Will it?  Not one of your Eastern Catholic Churches has autocephalous status.  That is recognised only for the Church of Rome.  The other 22 Catholic Churches are held in the lesser status of autonomous Churches and dependent on Rome.

Will our Churches truly retains their "full jurisdictional integrity" as autocephalous Churches?  Will the Patriarchs have equal authority to the Pope of the Church of Rome?  Will the Pope be their equal and the equal of every other bishop at inter-church and international synods?  Will the Pope have one vote as has every Patriarch and every bishop?

I think it is not truthful to tell us that our "full jurisdictional integrity" will be maintained.
Sure it will.  Nach Canossa gehen wir nicht.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walk_to_Canossa#.22Going_to_Canossa.22
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_nach_Canossa
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« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2010, 11:07:03 AM »

we are starting to have a restoration of Orthodox Rome.
No need to reinvent the wheel. Rome is orthodox with or without the full communion of the EO. Wink
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« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2010, 11:07:37 AM »


There is no other way.  Certainly I cannot predict the particulars nor the day and hour, but the direction is already quite evident, and I am also without doubt that Orthodox hierarchs see what I see with even greater precision.

Before we fall under the spell of Mary's spin doctoring let us look at what in
fact the Orthodox hierarchs have been saying during the 50 years of ecumenism.

I want to present a few official examples which show the consistency and
ultra-conservatism of the official Orthodox viewpoint throughout the years of
ecumenism... the unbending and inflexible insistence that Orthodoxy alone
constitutes the One Church. The Orthodox have not strayed from their own
reality and have not failed to present the authentic Orthodox point of view at
ecumenical meetings and in official statements with both Catholics and Protestants.



1. 1957.... The Statement of the Representatives of the Greek Orthodox
Church in the USA at the North American Faith and Order Study
Conference, Oberlin, Ohio, September 1957. This is quite unequivocal
about the uniqueness of Orthodoxy as the Church.

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ecumenical/gocamerica_faith_order_sept_1957.htm



2. 1980s.... The contretemps in the 1980s at the International Roman
Catholic-Orthodox Theological Dialogue which saw a walk-out of the
Catholic participants when the Orthodox delegates declared that they
were unable to accept Catholic baptism per se. These were not fringy
palaeohiemerologhites but the most ecumenically minded bishops and
theologians of the canonical Orthodox Churches. This question has
never been revisited in the international dialogue but one day it will
need to be faced head on.


3. 1986.... Report of the Third Panorthodox Preconciliar (WCC)
Conference, Chambesy, 1986:

"The Orthodox Church, however, faithful to her ecclesiology, to the
identity of her internal structure and to the teaching of the
undivided Church, while participating in the WCC, does not accept the
idea of the "equality of confessions" and cannot consider Church
unity as an inter-confessional adjustment. In this spirit, the unity
which is sought within the WCC cannot simply be the product of
theological agreements alone. God calls every Christian to the unity
of faith which is lived in the sacraments and the tradition, as
experienced in the Orthodox Church."

Report of the Third Panorthodox Preconciliar Conference, Chambesy,
1986

Section III, Paragraph 6
http://www.incommunion.org/articles/ecumenical-movement/chambesy-1986


4. 1997..... Even the most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."

Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html


The Jesuits declared morosely that Patr. Bartholomew had set the
dialogue back 10 years.  Nobody else made a comment since they did
not have a clue what the Patriarch was talking about.  


5. 2000..... The important Statement on Orthodoxy and its ecumenical
relationships with non-Orthodox Churches issued by the 2000
Millennial Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church:

"Basic Principles of the Attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church Toward the
Other Christian Confessions"

It basically repeats what the Greeks said at Oberlin Ohio in 1957
and even more emphatically - the boundaries of the Church are
the Orthodox Church herself.

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/attitude-to-the-non-orthodox/
and
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ecumenical/roc_other_christian_confessions.htm



6. 2007..... The Agreed Statement ussued by the Catholic-Orthodox
International Theological Meeting in Ravenna, Sept 2007

"Note [1] Orthodox participants felt it important to emphasize that
the use of the terms "the Church", "the universal Church", "the
indivisible Church" and "the Body of Christ" in this document and in
similar documents produced by the Joint Commission in no way
undermines the self-understanding of the Orthodox Church as the one,
holy, catholic and apostolic Church, of which the Nicene Creed
speaks."

http://www.orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/130.aspx#2


Fr Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad)

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« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2010, 11:27:50 AM »


When you all confess the Orthodox Faith, you can join us at any time.


I'd have difficulty trying to figure out which one.

The One, Holy, Cathoic and Apostolic Church, the one which confesses the Orthodox Faith.


Quote
 Best we resume communion and keep our individual integrity and expressions.

Entering into communion with anyone not confessing the Orthodox Faith and so not a member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church would mean the loss of all integrity, individually and collectively, and express rejection of the Faith delievered once and for all to the saints and preserved by the Fathers. Best we not do that.

I sit here with about ten or twelve different books used to catechize Orthodox catechumen in parishes with which I am familiar.  Each one of those texts tells a different story on some major questions of sacramental theology or some other aspect of Orthodox belief that goes beyond what one might call small "t" tradition.  Perhaps I am too selective in my approach to theology and doctrine but that kind of divergence does not appeal to me.  I see the fruits of it here on the Internet daily.

Like nameless Orthodox clerics, I can't respond to titleless Orthodox books. The only major difference I ever found among all the catechumen material was one that bought into St. Jerome's invention of the Lord's Brethren as cousins rather than step brothers.

I do know that the Dutch Catechism of the Vatican's bishops in the Netherlands differs from the CCC. But then you have argued that the latter is not infallible, so I guess we can go with the Dutch bishops.

Since they differe on "major questions," then you should have no problem finding and giving us some examples. Two should be enough, three for good measure. Since you have no problem with Met. Nicolaie's actions (except perhaps his repentance to the Holy Synod of Romania), I don't trust your judgement as to small "t" tradition, let alone big "T."

Quote
When Orthodoxy resumes communion with the Catholic Church,


Catholic communion of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church consists of Orthodoxy.  Since you reject Orthodoxy, why you should want Catholic communion doesn't make any sense, except accepting Kumbaya as big "T" tradition.

Quote
there will be no Unia [used in its historic sense since there is no other PC word to substitute for it].  Those days are gone.

The schemes being presented says otherwise.

Quote
Each Orthodox particular Church would enter into communion with full jurisdictional integrity.

Every Orthodox particular Church are in communion with full jurisidcitonal integrity, although that of Ohrid and Kiev could be upgraded.

Quote
The doctrinal and theological inconsistencies would either remain or be regularized internally to Orthodoxy.

The Churches in the Orthodox diptychs do not have doctrinal and theological inconsistencies. That is how they get into the diptychs.

Quote
My own Catholic brothers and sisters will be confused at first because most of them are Roman rite and have a tendency to think that the Roman rite IS the universal Church,

It comes from the Vatican claiming to be the Catholic Church. Intercommunion just spreads that confusion.

Quote
but I am sure that there will be sufficiently intelligent people left in the Catholic Church to take care of their own and help them to grasp the historical reality that we were never, black and white, identical in any event.

How you want to regularize things internally in your communion doesn't involve us.

Quote
So most of your fear mongering is just that.

You refering to the anathemas pronounced by the Fathers as "fear mongering"?

Quote
I am not suggesting that things will not have to be worked through systematically and in good time, but the fear baiting is not a realistic assessment of what is coming.

It is telling how want to talk about "what is coming" but do not want to deal with what has actually come, i.e. the decision of the Holy Synod of Romania against Met. Nicolaie and its support throughout Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #129 on: November 06, 2010, 11:30:38 AM »

we are starting to have a restoration of Orthodox Rome.
No need to reinvent the wheel. Rome is orthodox with or without the full communion of the EO. Wink
The doors of St. Peter's and the crypt of St. Paul outside the Wall in Rome used to have the Orthodox Creed (i.e. without filioque) on silver plaques set up by Pope Leo III with the inscription «HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of Orthodox Faith)." What happened to them?
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« Reply #130 on: November 06, 2010, 11:57:11 AM »


It is telling how want to talk about "what is coming" but do not want to deal with what has actually come, i.e. the decision of the Holy Synod of Romania against Met. Nicolaie and its support throughout Orthodoxy.

What is to deal with?  He took it upon himself as a bishop and leader of a Church in schism with Rome to step over the line drawn by Orthodoxy and share a chalice in communion with the Catholic Church.

He was chastised for his example and will not be given the opportunity to do that again, until after the the end of the schism.

That does not change or alter anything that I have suggested here at all. 

You and Father Ambrose are not in charge.

Thank heaven!!

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« Reply #131 on: November 06, 2010, 03:40:11 PM »


It is telling how want to talk about "what is coming" but do not want to deal with what has actually come, i.e. the decision of the Holy Synod of Romania against Met. Nicolaie and its support throughout Orthodoxy.

What is to deal with?  He took it upon himself as a bishop and leader of a Church in schism with Rome to step over the line drawn by Orthodoxy and share a chalice in communion with the Catholic Church.

He was chastised for his example and will not be given the opportunity to do that again, until after the the end of the schism.

That does not change or alter anything that I have suggested here at all. 

You and Father Ambrose are not in charge.

Thank heaven!!



I believe you have said that one of your spiritual mentors is an Orthodox monk.  Have you sought his views on your opinion on these matters?  Does he take your position?

I see that you have not yet given even one example of "a different story on some major questions of sacramental theology or some other aspect of Orthodox belief that goes beyond what one might call small "t" tradition." 

Quote
Perhaps I am too selective in my approach to theology and doctrine but that kind of divergence does not appeal to me.  .


Until you tell us to what you are referring you appear to be simply discrediting Orthodoxy for your own reasons.  It doesn't look nice.  Maligning Orthodoxy with non-specific allegations would not be seen by Rome as furthering the ecumenical dialogue with Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #132 on: November 06, 2010, 04:21:08 PM »

Quote
[quote author=Irish Hermit link=topic=31047.msg490558#msg490558 date=1289072411
Until you tell us to what you are referring you appear to be simply discrediting Orthodoxy for your own reasons.  It doesn't look nice.  Maligning Orthodoxy with non-specific allegations would not be seen by Rome as furthering the ecumenical dialogue with Orthodoxy.


Appearances.  Yes.  Let's be concerned about appearances.  Do you really think I am here for appearance's sake?

These are Orthodox texts, readily available, on all the best book lists and catechism lists.  I am not going to sit here and type out text.  Topics that don't co-inside precisely include the presence of an eternal priesthood, the real presence in Eucharist, varying teachings on the atonement and salvation, varying perspectives on the ancestral sin, which also has an impact on the way the sacraments of Initiation are treated.  There are other examples but those are the ones that come most readily to mind.

If you think that these things are treated equally among all Orthodox believers and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction then you haven't been paying much attention to on-line Orthodox dialogue...so it is not surprising that the same issues would appear in Orthodox texts.

Do I think that is a bad thing?  Not precisely.  Sometimes I think it causes problems.  But to think of these variations as a malignancy?...no.  I am not that rigid in my thinking.

It certainly doesn't support the Internet Orthodox fiction of some kind of monolithic Orthodoxy that sees the heretical Catholic Church in all the same fashion and manner, in substance and in attitude.   So that is actually a good thing...I think.  Keeps the reality from becoming as negative as some would like.

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« Reply #133 on: November 06, 2010, 04:41:12 PM »


 Topics that don't co-inside precisely include the presence of

an eternal priesthood

Not a major issue but see here

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20180.msg300372/topicseen.html#msg300372


Quote
the real presence in Eucharist

You have textbooks and catechisms teaching the Real Absence?  The mind boggles.

Quote
varying teachings on the atonement and salvation

Variation and different emphases in these things are common to the Fathers.  You will find this diversity still present in Orthodoxy.

See here
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx


Quote
varying perspectives on the ancestral sin

As we find in the Fathers.



The bottom line is that you do  not want to take Orthodoxy (or even Eastern Catholicism) on its own terms but you want it to conform to your rather Roman ideas of tidiness and consistency.  These presumptions on your part make your usefulness to the ecumenical dialogue questionable.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #134 on: November 06, 2010, 04:44:58 PM »

The bottom line is that you do  not want to take Orthodoxy (or even Eastern Catholicism) on its own terms but you want it to conform to your rather Roman ideas of tidiness and consistency.  These presumptions on your part make your usefulness to the ecumenical dialogue questionable.

 laugh laugh laugh

Don't you just wish!!

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