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Author Topic: Fellow Catholics: should we want to commune with the EO?  (Read 10017 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2010, 03:03:47 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
there you go, bringing up facts...
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« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2010, 03:08:56 PM »

As Catholics, why wouldn't you want to commune with us?  You guys commune with Nestorians quite openly.  Your own Pope JPII said that you and the Nestorians hold the same faith and that the Nestorian controversies were mere "misunderstandings."  
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« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2010, 03:12:52 PM »

As Catholics, why wouldn't you want to commune with us?  You guys commune with Nestorians quite openly.  Your own Pope JPII said that you and the Nestorians hold the same faith and that the Nestorian controversies were mere "misunderstandings."  
That is not what was said. What was said was that the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East is not really Nestorian. If they really believe that Jesus is one person, God incarnate, undivided, then how can we charge them with Nestorianism? Similarly, we don't charge the Oriental Orthodox with being monophysites because, even though they profess only one nature, they still acknowledge that Christ's Humanity and Divinity are distinct.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 03:14:10 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2010, 03:14:35 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
To be honest, that is what it sounded like to me as well. Now granted, I realize that we believe there are varying degrees of communion with the Catholic Church, and every Christian baptized with the Trinitarian formula technically belongs to the Catholic Church even though they are not in full communion with Her. I do not see the rationale either with us letting the EO commune in our Church without them being formally received into the Catholic Church, nor do I see the rationale in us being allowed (by our Church) to commune in their Church. Certainly it is technically okay according to our Canon Law, but hopefully this is the exception rather than the rule as there is no sense in it happening on a regular basis. It is inappropriate for a Christian who only accepts the first seven Ecumenical Councils to continue receiving the Eucharist in our Church while persisting in that believe just as it would be inappropriate for us to receive in the EO Church while still holding onto belief in councils which they deem heretical and certainly not ecumenical.
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« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2010, 03:18:02 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
To be honest, that is what it sounded like to me as well. Now granted, I realize that we believe there are varying degrees of communion with the Catholic Church, and every Christian baptized with the Trinitarian formula technically belongs to the Catholic Church even though they are not in full communion with Her. I do not see the rationale either with us letting the EO commune in our Church without them being formally received into the Catholic Church, nor do I see the rationale in us being allowed (by our Church) to commune in their Church. Certainly it is technically okay according to our Canon Law, but hopefully this is the exception rather than the rule as there is no sense in it happening on a regular basis. It is inappropriate for a Christian who only accepts the first seven Ecumenical Councils to continue receiving the Eucharist in our Church while persisting in that believe just as it would be inappropriate for us to receive in the EO Church while still holding onto belief in councils which they deem heretical and certainly not ecumenical.
It is the exception, rather than the norm. If there is a Catholic liturgy available, you should receive communion there. The idea that we could receive from and Eastern Orthodox priest is only to be applied to extreme situation, such as when there is no Catholic Church nearby or if you are in danger of death, and there is no reasonable possibility of receiving communion from a Catholic priest.
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« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2010, 03:25:06 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html

Branch theory admits to some sort of formal loss of Apostolic Succession.

What has happened between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church has not resulted in the loss of succession.  It is a long series of refusals to understand and give way to a renewed and legitimate understanding.

M.
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« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2010, 03:26:44 PM »

It is the exception, rather than the norm. If there is a Catholic liturgy available, you should receive communion there. The idea that we could receive from and Eastern Orthodox priest is only to be applied to extreme situation, such as when there is no Catholic Church nearby or if you are in danger of death, and there is no reasonable possibility of receiving communion from a Catholic priest.


There are no such strictures against Eastern Catholics.

Furthermore there would be no such exception for any reason unless there is recognized apostolic succession and graced sacraments.

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« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2010, 03:27:05 PM »

As Catholics, why wouldn't you want to commune with us?  You guys commune with Nestorians quite openly.  Your own Pope JPII said that you and the Nestorians hold the same faith and that the Nestorian controversies were mere "misunderstandings."  
That is not what was said. What was said was that the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East is not really Nestorian. If they really believe that Jesus is one person, God incarnate, undivided, then how can we charge them with Nestorianism? Similarly, we don't charge the Oriental Orthodox with being monophysites because, even though they profess only one nature, they still acknowledge that Christ's Humanity and Divinity are distinct.

They commemorate Nestorius as a saint.  And yes, the Pope did state that the "controversies of the past led to anathemas, bearing on persons and on formulas. The Lord's Spirit permits us to understand better today that the divisions brought about in this way were due in large part to misunderstandings."  
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« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2010, 03:27:38 PM »

As Catholics, why wouldn't you want to commune with us?  You guys commune with Nestorians quite openly.  Your own Pope JPII said that you and the Nestorians hold the same faith and that the Nestorian controversies were mere "misunderstandings."  
That is not what was said. What was said was that the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East is not really Nestorian. If they really believe that Jesus is one person, God incarnate, undivided, then how can we charge them with Nestorianism? Similarly, we don't charge the Oriental Orthodox with being monophysites because, even though they profess only one nature, they still acknowledge that Christ's Humanity and Divinity are distinct.

The Nestorians still refuse to call the Holy Theotokos the Theotokos.
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« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2010, 03:29:31 PM »

As Catholics, why wouldn't you want to commune with us?  You guys commune with Nestorians quite openly.  Your own Pope JPII said that you and the Nestorians hold the same faith and that the Nestorian controversies were mere "misunderstandings."  
That is not what was said. What was said was that the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East is not really Nestorian. If they really believe that Jesus is one person, God incarnate, undivided, then how can we charge them with Nestorianism? Similarly, we don't charge the Oriental Orthodox with being monophysites because, even though they profess only one nature, they still acknowledge that Christ's Humanity and Divinity are distinct.

The Nestorians still refuse to call the Holy Theotokos the Theotokos.

So what?  You still refuse to call Catholics, Catholics.
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« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2010, 03:29:43 PM »

As Catholics, why wouldn't you want to commune with us?  You guys commune with Nestorians quite openly.  Your own Pope JPII said that you and the Nestorians hold the same faith and that the Nestorian controversies were mere "misunderstandings."  
That is not what was said. What was said was that the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East is not really Nestorian. If they really believe that Jesus is one person, God incarnate, undivided, then how can we charge them with Nestorianism? Similarly, we don't charge the Oriental Orthodox with being monophysites because, even though they profess only one nature, they still acknowledge that Christ's Humanity and Divinity are distinct.

The Nestorians still refuse to call the Holy Theotokos the Theotokos.
I am well aware of that. And the reason is not that because they think it is wrong to do so. They just want to make it clear that Christ's Divinity is not derived from the Theotokos. So they prefer to call the Blessed Mother, Mary, the Mother of Christ our God. Which is about the same thing.
Do agree with all of the theological languea of the Assyrian Church of the East? No! But I don't believe that they are Nestorians.
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« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2010, 03:30:41 PM »

As Catholics, why wouldn't you want to commune with us?  You guys commune with Nestorians quite openly.  Your own Pope JPII said that you and the Nestorians hold the same faith and that the Nestorian controversies were mere "misunderstandings."  
That is not what was said. What was said was that the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East is not really Nestorian. If they really believe that Jesus is one person, God incarnate, undivided, then how can we charge them with Nestorianism? Similarly, we don't charge the Oriental Orthodox with being monophysites because, even though they profess only one nature, they still acknowledge that Christ's Humanity and Divinity are distinct.

The Nestorians still refuse to call the Holy Theotokos the Theotokos.

So what?  You still refuse to call Catholics, Catholics.

I call Catholics Catholics all the time.  I also call a spade a spade, which is what is bothering some.
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« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2010, 03:35:29 PM »

As Catholics, why wouldn't you want to commune with us?  You guys commune with Nestorians quite openly.  Your own Pope JPII said that you and the Nestorians hold the same faith and that the Nestorian controversies were mere "misunderstandings."  
That is not what was said. What was said was that the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East is not really Nestorian. If they really believe that Jesus is one person, God incarnate, undivided, then how can we charge them with Nestorianism? Similarly, we don't charge the Oriental Orthodox with being monophysites because, even though they profess only one nature, they still acknowledge that Christ's Humanity and Divinity are distinct.

The Nestorians still refuse to call the Holy Theotokos the Theotokos.

So what?  You still refuse to call Catholics, Catholics.

I call Catholics Catholics all the time.
No, you call the EO Catholics. Big difference.
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« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2010, 03:41:04 PM »



And here we go again...
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« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2010, 03:41:28 PM »



And here we go again...
That's a pretty one.
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« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2010, 03:42:37 PM »

^^  Wow, that is. 
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« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2010, 03:47:00 PM »

It is the exception, rather than the norm. If there is a Catholic liturgy available, you should receive communion there. The idea that we could receive from and Eastern Orthodox priest is only to be applied to extreme situation, such as when there is no Catholic Church nearby or if you are in danger of death, and there is no reasonable possibility of receiving communion from a Catholic priest.

Well, your Church thinks otherwise:

Quote
Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it

No extreme situations here.
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« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2010, 03:49:21 PM »

Well, your Church thinks otherwise:

Quote
Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it

No extreme situations here.

What does "necessity requires it" mean to you? Perhaps, you have no other option?
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« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2010, 03:50:13 PM »

This is a little offtopic but could some Catholic explain your theological basis for accepting intercommunion?

It is not off-topic.  It IS the heart of the topic.

The Catholic Church accepts three principle assertions about the Orthodox Church.  

The first is that we share Apostolic Succession.

And the Second is that we share a faith that is sufficient to salvation.

The third is that our sacraments are mutually grace-filled.

And so despite the fact that there are claims, on all sides, to the contrary, the Church has decided that rather than keep the anger going, we shall release our centuries of bad feelings and embrace Orthodoxy as true Sister Churches...not with the fullness of union...but with sufficient fullness to warrant communion.

That, of course, has been received in some quarters with all kinds of doors being slammed in our faces, but I believe that it was the right and necessary thing for the Catholic Church to do and to say.


Since the Orthodox Church (and yes, that is the Orthodox Church, not your nameless Orthodox priests and friends. Those who doubt that, can see what the Orthodox Church of Romania did over Met. Nicolae Corneanu, and that was with the "Romanian Church in Union with Rome-Greek Catholic") does not share these assertions, the perplexity of what you all think you "accomplishing." Because it seems yet another attempt to con us into thinking we believe the same "so why don't you submit to the Vicar of Christ and sign on the dotted line for the union?"

Dear Fellow Catholic,

I have been at this business of informal dialogue for seventeen years now and I can tell you that you do not represent universal Orthodoxy, however much you might hope to do so.

Well, I don't know what you are reading into the pretty words Met. Zizoulis has been telling you, but as the Romanian Patriarch and the Holy Synod in the diptychs of the universal Orthodox Church  has unambiguously stated (along with the consequences), you are mistaken.

Quote
The days of untrammeled unionist vs. anti-unionist bullying are over.  

Well, can't say what is going on over there in Oz, but here on earth and in heaven, the battle of Orthodoxy vs. heresy continues.

Quote
Instant communications makes our mutual warts too difficult to hide any more.   True historians have improved access to all kinds of archives which will do much to allow the ordinary fellow to refute pseudo-history.

You mean like this?

There is a documentary record of anti-unionists strong-arming the population to speak out against union.  It is an historical record that is not readily available to English speakers from the United States but it exists and it is not a record that looks much like the working of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, those anti-unionists must have had much stronger arms than the emperor's whole state apparatus and army and the Crusaders who backed them. Roll Eyes The propoganda for union has left quite a documentary record, but bringing it up makes the claims all the more ridiculous. That such whinning exists, I do not doubt: I'm not monolingual, and have been to all the areas except India and Ethiopia where the Vatican imposed its unions. That the areas have remained majority Orthodox atttests to the work of the Holy Spirit.

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And most importantly of all, the ability to actually "see" our similarities as faithful people is increasing exponentially.

kumbaya.  Will we joining the Muslims next? The Mormons?

Quote
Your photos of clown masses will soon be nearly 100 years old and will no longer pack the same punch....They do not even now because it should be evident to all that the photo gallery is quite dated already.

This is only three years old:


Quote
So you'd best crow now while you still can.
 

I'd rather listen to the choir of saints.

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« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2010, 03:52:21 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
Does the two lung theory contradict RC teaching in your view?
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« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2010, 03:53:33 PM »

Those pics are not from a clown mass, but from that group that dresses up at Mass to protest the alleged anti-gay doctrines of the RCC.  I can't recall their name at present.
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« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2010, 03:54:08 PM »



And here we go again...
That's a pretty one.
I like the lights.
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« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2010, 03:54:30 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
Does the two lung theory contradict RC teaching in your view?
Yes
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« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2010, 03:55:34 PM »

This is a little offtopic but could some Catholic explain your theological basis for accepting intercommunion?

It is not off-topic.  It IS the heart of the topic.

The Catholic Church accepts three principle assertions about the Orthodox Church.  

The first is that we share Apostolic Succession.

And the Second is that we share a faith that is sufficient to salvation.

The third is that our sacraments are mutually grace-filled.

And so despite the fact that there are claims, on all sides, to the contrary, the Church has decided that rather than keep the anger going, we shall release our centuries of bad feelings and embrace Orthodoxy as true Sister Churches...not with the fullness of union...but with sufficient fullness to warrant communion.

That, of course, has been received in some quarters with all kinds of doors being slammed in our faces, but I believe that it was the right and necessary thing for the Catholic Church to do and to say.


Since the Orthodox Church (and yes, that is the Orthodox Church, not your nameless Orthodox priests and friends. Those who doubt that, can see what the Orthodox Church of Romania did over Met. Nicolae Corneanu, and that was with the "Romanian Church in Union with Rome-Greek Catholic") does not share these assertions, the perplexity of what you all think you "accomplishing." Because it seems yet another attempt to con us into thinking we believe the same "so why don't you submit to the Vicar of Christ and sign on the dotted line for the union?"

Dear Fellow Catholic,

I have been at this business of informal dialogue for seventeen years now and I can tell you that you do not represent universal Orthodoxy, however much you might hope to do so.

Well, I don't know what you are reading into the pretty words Met. Zizoulis has been telling you, but as the Romanian Patriarch and the Holy Synod in the diptychs of the universal Orthodox Church  has unambiguously stated (along with the consequences), you are mistaken.

Quote
The days of untrammeled unionist vs. anti-unionist bullying are over.  

Well, can't say what is going on over there in Oz, but here on earth and in heaven, the battle of Orthodoxy vs. heresy continues.

Quote
Instant communications makes our mutual warts too difficult to hide any more.   True historians have improved access to all kinds of archives which will do much to allow the ordinary fellow to refute pseudo-history.

You mean like this?

There is a documentary record of anti-unionists strong-arming the population to speak out against union.  It is an historical record that is not readily available to English speakers from the United States but it exists and it is not a record that looks much like the working of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, those anti-unionists must have had much stronger arms than the emperor's whole state apparatus and army and the Crusaders who backed them. Roll Eyes The propoganda for union has left quite a documentary record, but bringing it up makes the claims all the more ridiculous. That such whinning exists, I do not doubt: I'm not monolingual, and have been to all the areas except India and Ethiopia where the Vatican imposed its unions. That the areas have remained majority Orthodox atttests to the work of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
And most importantly of all, the ability to actually "see" our similarities as faithful people is increasing exponentially.

kumbaya.  Will we joining the Muslims next? The Mormons?

Quote
Your photos of clown masses will soon be nearly 100 years old and will no longer pack the same punch....They do not even now because it should be evident to all that the photo gallery is quite dated already.

This is only three years old:


Quote
So you'd best crow now while you still can.
 

I'd rather listen to the choir of saints.

Quote
Resumed communion is coming, and coming at a rate that you cannot stop.
"If the whole universe were to commune with you, I alone would not commune with you."-St. Maximos the Orthodox Confessor
Yes. These pictures posted by ialmisry and as well many others, are problematical.
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« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2010, 03:56:16 PM »

Those pics are not from a clown mass, but from that group that dresses up at Mass to protest the alleged anti-gay doctrines of the RCC.  I can't recall their name at present.
Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.  That the archbishop didn't know to give communion to them is beyond me.  In Chicago, there was a rainbow sash protest, and the archbishop told priests not to give communion to anyone who wore one.  So all is not lost.
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« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2010, 03:56:23 PM »

As Catholics, why wouldn't you want to commune with us?  You guys commune with Nestorians quite openly.  Your own Pope JPII said that you and the Nestorians hold the same faith and that the Nestorian controversies were mere "misunderstandings."  
That is not what was said. What was said was that the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East is not really Nestorian. If they really believe that Jesus is one person, God incarnate, undivided, then how can we charge them with Nestorianism? Similarly, we don't charge the Oriental Orthodox with being monophysites because, even though they profess only one nature, they still acknowledge that Christ's Humanity and Divinity are distinct.
They commemorate Nestorius as a saint.  And yes, the Pope did state that the "controversies of the past led to anathemas, bearing on persons and on formulas. The Lord's Spirit permits us to understand better today that the divisions brought about in this way were due in large part to misunderstandings."  

Yes, they do commemorate him. But here's the thing. First, just becasue they commemorate him, doesn't mean that they view theology in exactly the same way that he did. In fact, they have explicitely stated that Christ is one person, human and divine. Second, are we really sure that Nestorius was "nestorian"?
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« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2010, 03:57:24 PM »

Those pics are not from a clown mass, but from that group that dresses up at Mass to protest the alleged anti-gay doctrines of the RCC.  I can't recall their name at present.
Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.  That the archbishop didn't know to give communion to them is beyond me.  In Chicago, there was a rainbow sash protest, and the archbishop told priests not to give communion to anyone who wore one.  So all is not lost.

Yes, that's them.  Regardless, this is not a clown mass, which is an entirely different animal.  Same kingdom, perhaps, but different species, so to speak. 
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« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2010, 03:58:14 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
Does the two lung theory contradict RC teaching in your view?
Yes
But His Holiness Pope John Paul II used the two lung metaphor, so why wouldn't that put you  out of line with the teaching of the Pope?
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« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2010, 04:00:35 PM »

Well, I don't know what you are reading into the pretty words Met. Zizoulis has been telling you, but as the Romanian Patriarch and the Holy Synod in the diptychs of the universal Orthodox Church  has unambiguously stated (along with the consequences), you are mistaken.

I don't often read Metropolitan John.

But I do know from reading here on this Forum that you are not universally representative.

I also understand that if Orthodox bishops all took the hard line that you take here, there would be no bilateral discussions at all.   So your approach is less bothersome to me than it may be to others.  Also, those Orthodox who were once Lutheran are some of the toughest nuts to crack.  I don't ever expect Orthodox converts from the Lutheran Church to ever be conciliatory.  There has never been nor will there ever be a time of absolute unity in the Church...not in reality...so there's plenty of room for you to continue to spill your ink.  BTW my mother was a Lutheran convert to the Catholic Church...It all went right over her head.  Same thing is happening as she learns more about Orthodoxy.  She's a good woman though... Smiley...but was and always will be Lutheran in her thinking and being.


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« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2010, 04:07:44 PM »

It is interesting that you, as moderator, would come in like this and derail the discussion.  I don't know that it matters that somethings get repeated in our dialogues.  Very often something new happens, or someone has a breakthrough in understanding...is that what worries you that you feel the need to interrupt?

Mary



And here we go again...
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« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2010, 04:08:16 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
Does the two lung theory contradict RC teaching in your view?
Yes
But His Holiness Pope John Paul II used the two lung metaphor, so why wouldn't that put you  out of line with the teaching of the Pope?
Do we know that he was talking about EO and not the Eastern Catholic Churches? I am honestly asking because I do not know. I have heard some people on the internet claim he was referring to the EO when he said this and have heard others say he was only referring to Eastern Catholicism, then I have heard still others say he was referring to both. Do we have any sources that prove one way or the other?
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« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2010, 04:13:06 PM »

It is interesting that you, as moderator, would come in like this and derail the discussion.  I don't know that it matters that somethings get repeated in our dialogues.  Very often something new happens, or someone has a breakthrough in understanding...is that what worries you that you feel the need to interrupt?

Mary



And here we go again...

Actually, this "Who can lay claim to the title 'Catholic'?" discussion has derailed more than a few threads.  The continued semantic word games you all like to engage in has derailed many discussions  Seriously, how many times will you, Isa, and others have this semantic discussion about who can use the word "Catholic" to describe his or her church membership?  It's not only tiresome to me as both a poster and a moderator, it's counter-productive because otherwise interesting threads end up in a OC.net version of Monty Python's classic "Argument Clinic" sketch.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 04:14:19 PM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2010, 04:15:02 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
Does the two lung theory contradict RC teaching in your view?
Yes
But His Holiness Pope John Paul II used the two lung metaphor, so why wouldn't that put you  out of line with the teaching of the Pope?
Do we know that he was talking about EO and not the Eastern Catholic Churches? I am honestly asking because I do not know. I have heard some people on the internet claim he was referring to the EO when he said this and have heard others say he was only referring to Eastern Catholicism, then I have heard still others say he was referring to both.
Hence the importance of saying what you mean and meaning what you say, and putting clarity in both.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 04:16:42 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2010, 04:15:08 PM »

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« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2010, 04:22:31 PM »

Actually, this "Who can lay claim to the title 'Catholic'?" discussion has derailed more than a few threads.  The continued semantic word games you all like to engage in has derailed many discussions  Seriously, how many times will you, Isa, and others have this semantic discussion about who can use the word "Catholic" to describe his or her church membership?  It's not only tiresome to me as both a poster and a moderator, it's counter-productive because otherwise interesting threads end up in a OC.net version of Monty Python's classic "Argument Clinic" sketch.
I've implored you guys multiple times to put a pinned thread in place similar to the one regarding how to address Eastern Catholics on OC.net that protected the dignity of Roman Catholics, but as of yet this has not happened. Methinks if such a pinned thread were created all of this would go away.
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« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2010, 04:30:54 PM »

Actually, this "Who can lay claim to the title 'Catholic'?" discussion has derailed more than a few threads.  The continued semantic word games you all like to engage in has derailed many discussions  Seriously, how many times will you, Isa, and others have this semantic discussion about who can use the word "Catholic" to describe his or her church membership?  It's not only tiresome to me as both a poster and a moderator, it's counter-productive because otherwise interesting threads end up in a OC.net version of Monty Python's classic "Argument Clinic" sketch.
I've implored you guys multiple times to put a pinned thread in place similar to the one regarding how to address Eastern Catholics on OC.net that protected the dignity of Roman Catholics, but as of yet this has not happened. Methinks if such a pinned thread were created all of this would go away.

Apples and oranges, I'm afraid.  The Orthodox Church considers itself to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and therefore is allowed to call itself by that title.  The conventions concerning Eastern Catholics and Oriental Orthodox are in place because the moderation team has decided that the previously used alternatives are commonly considered perjorative by members of those respective communions. 

Of course, it would be nice if posters used the common accepted terminology of "Catholic" to mean communicants of the Roman Catholic Church which is HQ'd in the Vatican and has the Bishop of Rome, commonly called the Pope, as its nominal, temporal head and "Orthodox" to mean to communicants of the various churches commonly called "Greek Orthodox" or just plain "Eastern Orthodox", if only for convenience sake and ease of meaning. 

However, posters such as ialmisry are perfectly in their rights to argue for exclusive use of the term "Catholic."  As noted, however, I find such an argument tiresome and counter-productive.  An easy way to avoid frustration is to simply ignore such posts and continue to use the generally accepted conventions and not engage in such an argument.  It's really not that hard.


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« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2010, 04:33:33 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
Does the two lung theory contradict RC teaching in your view?
Yes
But His Holiness Pope John Paul II used the two lung metaphor, so why wouldn't that put you  out of line with the teaching of the Pope?
Do we know that he was talking about EO and not the Eastern Catholic Churches? I am honestly asking because I do not know. I have heard some people on the internet claim he was referring to the EO when he said this and have heard others say he was only referring to Eastern Catholicism, then I have heard still others say he was referring to both. Do we have any sources that prove one way or the other?

Wyatt,

This is one of the first times Pope John Paul II ever used the metaphor.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3700

I am sorry that I derailed the thread by asking that the thread not be derailed.  I never learn.

M.

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« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2010, 04:42:36 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
Does the two lung theory contradict RC teaching in your view?
Yes
But His Holiness Pope John Paul II used the two lung metaphor, so why wouldn't that put you  out of line with the teaching of the Pope?
The Pope also used the expression of Sister Churches.
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« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2010, 04:45:14 PM »

Well, I don't know what you are reading into the pretty words Met. Zizoulis has been telling you, but as the Romanian Patriarch and the Holy Synod in the diptychs of the universal Orthodox Church  has unambiguously stated (along with the consequences), you are mistaken.

I don't often read Metropolitan John.

I don't read him at all, except his statements.

Quote
But I do know from reading here on this Forum that you are not universally representative.

More reading is in order then.

Quote
I also understand that if Orthodox bishops all took the hard line that you take here, there would be no bilateral discussions at all.


St. Mark of Ephesus showed up at Florence.

Quote
So your approach is less bothersome to me than it may be to others.

Good.

Quote
Also, those Orthodox who were once Lutheran are some of the toughest nuts to crack. I don't ever expect Orthodox converts from the Lutheran Church to ever be conciliatory.

Since there are plenty of converts to Orthodoxy from the Vatican, from the Episcopalians, Baptists, Muslims, Evangelicals, and even *gasp* cradle Orthodox whose ancestors threw into the Bosphoros the bishops returning from Florence and pelted the jail where Isodore the Apostate was held in Moscow before being allowed to "escape" to the Vatican, who will tell you the same thing, would you mind to point out the relevance of my Lutheran background?

Quote
There has never been nor will there ever be a time of absolute unity in the Church...not in reality...so there's plenty of room for you to continue to spill your ink.  BTW my mother was a Lutheran convert to the Catholic Church...It all went right over her head.  Same thing is happening as she learns more about Orthodoxy.  She's a good woman though... Smiley...but was and always will be Lutheran in her thinking and being.

Well, then, with your background you can point out then what argument I have made from Lutheranism here. Since I accepted communion and even absolution once from the Vatican when I was a Lutheran, and then would have never questioned its baptism.   I'm quite curious.  I mean, you are of course quite free to attribute my defense of Orthodoxy to Lutheranism if it gets you through the day, but it is an odd way to "dialogue."
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 04:51:34 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2010, 04:50:24 PM »

Well, I don't know what you are reading into the pretty words Met. Zizoulis has been telling you, but as the Romanian Patriarch and the Holy Synod in the diptychs of the universal Orthodox Church  has unambiguously stated (along with the consequences), you are mistaken.

I don't often read Metropolitan John.

I don't read him at all, except his statements.

Quote
But I do know from reading here on this Forum that you are not universally representative.

More reading is in order then.

Quote
I also understand that if Orthodox bishops all took the hard line that you take here, there would be no bilateral discussions at all.


St. Mark of Ephesus showed up at Florence.

Quote
So your approach is less bothersome to me than it may be to others.

Good.

Quote
Also, those Orthodox who were once Lutheran are some of the toughest nuts to crack. I don't ever expect Orthodox converts from the Lutheran Church to ever be conciliatory.

Since there are plenty of converts to Orthodoxy from the Vatican, from the Episcopalians, Baptists, Muslims, Evangelicals, and even *gasp* cradle Orthodox whose ancestors threw into the Bosphoros the bishops returning from Florence and pelted the jail where Isodore the Apostate was held in Moscow before being allowed to "escape" to the Vatican, who will tell you the same thing, would you mind to point out the relevance of my Lutheran background?

Quote
There has never been nor will there ever be a time of absolute unity in the Church...not in reality...so there's plenty of room for you to continue to spill your ink.  BTW my mother was a Lutheran convert to the Catholic Church...It all went right over her head.  Same thing is happening as she learns more about Orthodoxy.  She's a good woman though... Smiley...but was and always will be Lutheran in her thinking and being.

Well, then, with your background you can point out then what argument I have made from Lutheranism here. Since I accepted communion and even absolution once from the Vatican when I was a Lutheran, and then would have never questioned its baptism.   I'm quite curious.  I mean, you are of course quite free to attribute my defense of Orthodoxy to Lutheranism if it gets you through the day, but it is an odd way to "dialogue."



[/quote]I have heard it said that converts to a faith are oftentimes stronger (or more fanatical?) in their faith than those who had been brought up in that faith from birth?
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« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2010, 04:53:17 PM »

Well, I don't know what you are reading into the pretty words Met. Zizoulis has been telling you, but as the Romanian Patriarch and the Holy Synod in the diptychs of the universal Orthodox Church  has unambiguously stated (along with the consequences), you are mistaken.

I don't often read Metropolitan John.

I don't read him at all, except his statements.

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But I do know from reading here on this Forum that you are not universally representative.

More reading is in order then.

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I also understand that if Orthodox bishops all took the hard line that you take here, there would be no bilateral discussions at all.


St. Mark of Ephesus showed up at Florence.

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So your approach is less bothersome to me than it may be to others.

Good.

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Also, those Orthodox who were once Lutheran are some of the toughest nuts to crack. I don't ever expect Orthodox converts from the Lutheran Church to ever be conciliatory.

Since there are plenty of converts to Orthodoxy from the Vatican, from the Episcopalians, Baptists, Muslims, Evangelicals, and even *gasp* cradle Orthodox whose ancestors threw into the Bosphoros the bishops returning from Florence and pelted the jail where Isodore the Apostate was held in Moscow before being allowed to "escape" to the Vatican, who will tell you the same thing, would you mind to point out the relevance of my Lutheran background?

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There has never been nor will there ever be a time of absolute unity in the Church...not in reality...so there's plenty of room for you to continue to spill your ink.  BTW my mother was a Lutheran convert to the Catholic Church...It all went right over her head.  Same thing is happening as she learns more about Orthodoxy.  She's a good woman though... Smiley...but was and always will be Lutheran in her thinking and being.

Well, then, with your background you can point out then what argument I have made from Lutheranism here. Since I accepted communion and even absolution once from the Vatican when I was a Lutheran, and then would have never questioned its baptism.   I'm quite curious.  I mean, you are of course quite free to attribute my defense of Orthodoxy to Lutheranism if it gets you through the day, but it is an odd way to "dialogue."
I have heard it said that converts to a faith are oftentimes stronger (or more fanatical?) in their faith than those who had been brought up in that faith from birth?
That's true enough (though I've known lukewarm converts and zealous craddles), but she seems to single out Lutheranism for some meaning.
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« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2010, 04:59:29 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
Does the two lung theory contradict RC teaching in your view?
Yes
But His Holiness Pope John Paul II used the two lung metaphor, so why wouldn't that put you  out of line with the teaching of the Pope?
Do we know that he was talking about EO and not the Eastern Catholic Churches? I am honestly asking because I do not know. I have heard some people on the internet claim he was referring to the EO when he said this and have heard others say he was only referring to Eastern Catholicism, then I have heard still others say he was referring to both. Do we have any sources that prove one way or the other?

Wyatt,

This is one of the first times Pope John Paul II ever used the metaphor.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3700

I am sorry that I derailed the thread by asking that the thread not be derailed.  I never learn.

M.



The thread was already derailed long before I got involved.  I was merely trying to use some humor to call attention to that.

Next time, I'll just issue another diktat because apparently that's what you people want. 
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« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2010, 05:00:59 PM »

Apples and oranges, I'm afraid.  The Orthodox Church considers itself to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and therefore is allowed to call itself by that title.  The conventions concerning Eastern Catholics and Oriental Orthodox are in place because the moderation team has decided that the previously used alternatives are commonly considered perjorative by members of those respective communions.

This part is a red herring because I have never asked that our Church be called "the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" by members of this forum. For that matter, I have not even insisted that members of this forum call our communion simply "Catholic" with no modifiers. As you may recall, I was willing to compromise in being called RC, but certain members will not even use that term and prefer to use derogatory terms instead.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 05:01:14 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2010, 05:24:13 PM »


Next time, I'll just issue another diktat because apparently that's what you people want. 

This is not particularly irenic.  I simply had hoped this particular thread would not be derailed.  But it is a bit late for that now, as you noted.  As for your diktats, I don't know that any of "we people" have much choice.  Smiley

M.
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« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2010, 08:34:01 PM »

[But I do know from reading here on this Forum that you are not universally representative.

I also understand that if Orthodox bishops all took the hard line that you take here, there would be no bilateral discussions at all.   


You will have observed the slowing down of the International Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue.   It has happened because our bishops have at last decided to take an immediate interest and a hands-on approach and not to leave the Dialogue in the control of the small group of ecumenicats such as Metropolitan John Zizioulas, titular of Pergamon. 

Before the meeting on Cyprus in October 2009 the bishops of the Greek Church studied the document composed a year earlier on Crete which was created to form the basis of the discussion on Cyprus  -- and they were horrified by the extent to which the document appeared to be receptive to unorthodox teaching and especially on ecclesiology and the concept of a universal primacy.

So they clamped down on the Dialogue.  At their Synod prior to Cyprus the bishops ordered that no Statements should be issued by the International Dialogue until they had been examined and approved by the bishops. 

Metropolitan Zizioulas was thoroughly alarmed by this, and the word enraged is not unfitting for his angry reaction.   He wrote a nasty letter to the Greek bishops accusing them of being obscurantist and of making themselves look medieval in front of their flocks.   His letter is on the web and I shall find it.   The bishops replied; they had the good sense to ignore +Zizioulas' crassness and simply rejected his accusations.

Since then you will notice that neither Cyprus 2009 nor Vienna 2010 have released any Joint Statements.

The bishops, hardliners on matters doctrinal, are now the adjudicators of the Dialogue.  Glory to God!
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