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Author Topic: Fellow Catholics: should we want to commune with the EO?  (Read 9989 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« on: November 04, 2010, 05:53:19 PM »

This question popped into my head when we were discussing whether or not an EO Priest would give Holy Communion to a dying RC. My question is this, even though our Church technically would allow us to receive the Eucharist in an EOC and there may be some EO Priests who would allow it, should we do it? From a theological standpoint, the Eucharist unites us not only to Christ but to each other as the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. Since we are not unified with the EO in doctrine, wouldn't receiving their Eucharist be a lie and thus possibly put us in a worse spiritual state than just not receiving at all? Allow me to put it another way. If I was on the verge of death, wouldn't receiving the Eucharist from an EO put my soul in a dangerous state since I would, in effect, be denying the IC, Papal Primacy, Purgatory, and other RC doctrines by my reception of the EO Eucharist since reception of the Eucharist indicates doctrinal unity with a Christian communion?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 05:58:10 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2010, 05:56:26 PM »

So you reject the doctrines of your Church?
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2010, 05:58:37 PM »

So you reject the doctrines of your Church?
No...where did you get that?
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2010, 06:08:39 PM »

Since we are not unified with the EO in doctrine, wouldn't receiving their Eucharist be a lie and thus possibly put us in a worse spiritual state than just not receiving at all? Allow me to put it another way. If I was on the verge of death, wouldn't receiving the Eucharist from an EO put my soul in a dangerous state since I would, in effect, be denying the IC, Papal Primacy, Purgatory, and other RC doctrines by my reception of the EO Eucharist since reception of the Eucharist indicates doctrinal unity with a Christian communion?

Quote
Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2T.HTM
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2010, 07:42:01 PM »

So you reject the doctrines of your Church?

What doctrine?  So far it is an open door to the Orthodox.  There's no doctrine about it.

No wonder you folks tilt at windmills when you attempt to talk about the Catholic Church.

 laugh....doctrine, indeed!!
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2010, 07:53:37 PM »

This question popped into my head when we were discussing whether or not an EO Priest would give Holy Communion to a dying RC. My question is this, even though our Church technically would allow us to receive the Eucharist in an EOC and there may be some EO Priests who would allow it, should we do it? From a theological standpoint, the Eucharist unites us not only to Christ but to each other as the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. Since we are not unified with the EO in doctrine, wouldn't receiving their Eucharist be a lie and thus possibly put us in a worse spiritual state than just not receiving at all? Allow me to put it another way. If I was on the verge of death, wouldn't receiving the Eucharist from an EO put my soul in a dangerous state since I would, in effect, be denying the IC, Papal Primacy, Purgatory, and other RC doctrines by my reception of the EO Eucharist since reception of the Eucharist indicates doctrinal unity with a Christian communion?

You know, if I depended on some sort of absolute, black and white, jot for tittle equality in belief, I'd probably be able to count on one hand those Catholics with whom I would commune.  

So why would I hold a different standard for Orthodox believers?

 Smiley

PS: I can actually think of several Orthodox believers that I know by name, whose faith is more similar to my own than many of my fellow Catholics...actually.

I am being a bit lighted-hearted in tone with this topic, but in the main there is truth in what I am saying in both responses here.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 08:21:48 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2010, 08:41:54 PM »

Kolega, przeczytaj sobie ten przepis Kodeksu Prawa Kanonicznego po polsku i zrozumiesz jaki błąd popełniłeś
Friend, read that section of the Code of Canon Law in Polish and you will understand the confusion here.

The fact of intercommunion occurs in areas mixed religiously. Roman Catholics visit Orthodox shrines and Orthodox visit Roman Catholic shrines. The fact, to which church one belongs is more subjective than objective since the world does not abound in ideal solutions.

Nikolai Berdiaev, wrote about how in his life Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy interacted. His mother, was a noble women of Polish-French origins, although she followed the Orthodox religion of her husband, prayed from a French prayerbook. Even Berdiaev scolded his mother for not being Orthodox enough and dismissed this all as heresy. Even though Berdiaev never rejected Orthodoxy, he wrote that during his exile after the Russian revolution, he felt more at home at the Latin Masses in France than in the Orthodox church although he called the governance of the Roman Catholic Church autocratic.
source:
Berdiaev autobiography (I must note that the translated title in English is not the best
(1949) DREAM AND REALITY: An Essay in Autobiography. trans. by Katherine Lampert, London: G. Bles, 1950, 326 p.; New York: MacMillan, 1950. "Samopoznanie. Opyt Filosofskoi avtobiografii" (lit.) "Self-Knowledge: an Attempt at Philosophic Autobiography".
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2010, 08:52:34 PM »

They probably heard about the special 10,000th to commune this month wins a Dodge Stratus prize.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 08:52:47 PM by AMM » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2010, 09:52:57 PM »

This question popped into my head when we were discussing whether or not an EO Priest would give Holy Communion to a dying RC. My question is this, even though our Church technically would allow us to receive the Eucharist in an EOC and there may be some EO Priests who would allow it, should we do it? From a theological standpoint, the Eucharist unites us not only to Christ but to each other as the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. Since we are not unified with the EO in doctrine, wouldn't receiving their Eucharist be a lie and thus possibly put us in a worse spiritual state than just not receiving at all? Allow me to put it another way. If I was on the verge of death, wouldn't receiving the Eucharist from an EO put my soul in a dangerous state since I would, in effect, be denying the IC, Papal Primacy, Purgatory, and other RC doctrines by my reception of the EO Eucharist since reception of the Eucharist indicates doctrinal unity with a Christian communion?

If I'm not mistaken, while your catechism says that intercommunion is encouraged, it also says that it should only be done with the permission of both churches.

I'll be honest, thinking of the implications of intercommunion between the two communions raises a number of questions that no matter how you answer them, the answer has deep imlications on what such practices may reflect. One such issue is the nature of our division if the RC view is correct. I will admit that the Roman canon concerning priests not turning away properly disposed Orthodox from the Chalice along with the "ecouragement" to intercommune "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority" would be in accordance with the implications of the belief that we both serve Christ on our altars.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010, 09:57:39 PM »

They probably heard about the special 10,000th to commune this month wins a Dodge Stratus prize.

There would probably be more if maintenance on the prize was easier. I have one and have to take one of my tires off just to get to the battery.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 11:57:48 PM »

Since we are not unified with the EO in doctrine, wouldn't receiving their Eucharist be a lie and thus possibly put us in a worse spiritual state than just not receiving at all? Allow me to put it another way. If I was on the verge of death, wouldn't receiving the Eucharist from an EO put my soul in a dangerous state since I would, in effect, be denying the IC, Papal Primacy, Purgatory, and other RC doctrines by my reception of the EO Eucharist since reception of the Eucharist indicates doctrinal unity with a Christian communion?

Quote
Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2T.HTM
I realize that my Church says that we can commune in EO Churches, but there is a big difference between "can" and "should." I would really have to be on the verge of death before I would feel comfortable receiving the Eucharist from an EO Priest (and even then I still might not) because, in any other situation, I would definitely feel like I was betraying my own Church since my reception of it would be like saying I concur with EO doctrine. Obviously I do not, so I would not feel right partaking in the Eucharist at an EO Church.
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 12:21:52 AM »

So you reject the doctrines of your Church?

What doctrine?  So far it is an open door to the Orthodox.

No, a trap door.



Quote
 There's no doctrine about it.

So Vatican I and II have no doctrine.  Seems an incredible waste of time and fuss if all the bishops of your ecclesiastical community to hold a meeting at HQ to say and do nothing.

Quote
No wonder you folks tilt at windmills when you attempt to talk about the Catholic Church.

Maybe that's how it seems from your view from La Mancha (or are you in Holland: that Dutch Catechism of yours was quite a work)

Quote
laugh....doctrine, indeed!!
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm
laugh....doctrine, indeed!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 12:23:11 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 01:01:53 AM »

This question popped into my head when we were discussing whether or not an EO Priest would give Holy Communion to a dying RC. My question is this, even though our Church technically would allow us to receive the Eucharist in an EOC and there may be some EO Priests who would allow it, should we do it? From a theological standpoint, the Eucharist unites us not only to Christ but to each other as the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. Since we are not unified with the EO in doctrine, wouldn't receiving their Eucharist be a lie and thus possibly put us in a worse spiritual state than just not receiving at all? Allow me to put it another way. If I was on the verge of death, wouldn't receiving the Eucharist from an EO put my soul in a dangerous state since I would, in effect, be denying the IC, Papal Primacy, Purgatory, and other RC doctrines by my reception of the EO Eucharist since reception of the Eucharist indicates doctrinal unity with a Christian communion?
Not everyone believes as you do on this, but if that's the way you feel about it, don't accept Holy Communion or the Last rites from an EO priest.
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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 04:40:02 AM »

I realize that my Church says that we can commune in EO Churches, but there is a big difference between "can" and "should." I would really have to be on the verge of death before I would feel comfortable receiving the Eucharist from an EO Priest (and even then I still might not) because, in any other situation, I would definitely feel like I was betraying my own Church since my reception of it would be like saying I concur with EO doctrine. Obviously I do not, so I would not feel right partaking in the Eucharist at an EO Church.

But it that canon there is no single word about accepting the doctrine.
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 07:26:20 AM »

This is a little offtopic but could some Catholic explain your theological basis for accepting intercommunion?
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2010, 10:48:03 AM »

This particular note makes even less sense than most so please try again. 

Get rid of the pretty pics and let's hear your thoughts from your own mouth, and try not to filter them through a mountain of extraneous text.

You might get a dialogue going that way...if that is what is of interest to you?

So you reject the doctrines of your Church?

What doctrine?  So far it is an open door to the Orthodox.

No, a trap door.



Quote
 There's no doctrine about it.

So Vatican I and II have no doctrine.  Seems an incredible waste of time and fuss if all the bishops of your ecclesiastical community to hold a meeting at HQ to say and do nothing.

Quote
No wonder you folks tilt at windmills when you attempt to talk about the Catholic Church.

Maybe that's how it seems from your view from La Mancha (or are you in Holland: that Dutch Catechism of yours was quite a work)

Quote
laugh....doctrine, indeed!!
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm
laugh....doctrine, indeed!
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2010, 10:54:15 AM »

This is a little offtopic but could some Catholic explain your theological basis for accepting intercommunion?

It is not off-topic.  It IS the heart of the topic.

The Catholic Church accepts three principle assertions about the Orthodox Church. 

The first is that we share Apostolic Succession.

And the Second is that we share a faith that is sufficient to salvation.

The third is that our sacraments are mutually grace-filled.

And so despite the fact that there are claims, on all sides, to the contrary, the Church has decided that rather than keep the anger going, we shall release our centuries of bad feelings and embrace Orthodoxy as true Sister Churches...not with the fullness of union...but with sufficient fullness to warrant communion.

That, of course, has been received in some quarters with all kinds of doors being slammed in our faces, but I believe that it was the right and necessary thing for the Catholic Church to do and to say.

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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2010, 11:14:39 AM »

This is a little offtopic but could some Catholic explain your theological basis for accepting intercommunion?

It is not off-topic.  It IS the heart of the topic.

The Catholic Church accepts three principle assertions about the Orthodox Church. 

The first is that we share Apostolic Succession.

And the Second is that we share a faith that is sufficient to salvation.

The third is that our sacraments are mutually grace-filled.

And so despite the fact that there are claims, on all sides, to the contrary, the Church has decided that rather than keep the anger going, we shall release our centuries of bad feelings and embrace Orthodoxy as true Sister Churches...not with the fullness of union...but with sufficient fullness to warrant communion.

That, of course, has been received in some quarters with all kinds of doors being slammed in our faces, but I believe that it was the right and necessary thing for the Catholic Church to do and to say.


Since the Orthodox Church (and yes, that is the Orthodox Church, not your nameless Orthodox priests and friends. Those who doubt that, can see what the Orthodox Church of Romania did over Met. Nicolae Corneanu, and that was with the "Romanian Church in Union with Rome-Greek Catholic") does not share these assertions, the perplexity of what you all think you "accomplishing." Because it seems yet another attempt to con us into thinking we believe the same "so why don't you submit to the Vicar of Christ and sign on the dotted line for the union?"
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« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2010, 11:24:33 AM »

But it that canon there is no single word about accepting the doctrine.
Not in that canon, but that is the general reason given by our Church for why we are not to commune in non-Catholic churches (except the EO in certain circumstances apparently) because we are not doctrinally unified, and communing implies doctrinal unity.

This is a little offtopic but could some Catholic explain your theological basis for accepting intercommunion?
Actually I do not think this is off topic at all. Admittedly, this is one area where I am fuzzy as far as the rationale of our Church allowing us to commune from the EO. If validity is all that is required for a Catholic to receive the Eucharist then, IMO, the lack-of-doctrinal-unity card should never be played when discussing where we are not allowed to commune. I would greatly appreciate anyone who could shed more light on the RC teaching on this.
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« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2010, 11:32:41 AM »

This is a little offtopic but could some Catholic explain your theological basis for accepting intercommunion?

It is not off-topic.  It IS the heart of the topic.

The Catholic Church accepts three principle assertions about the Orthodox Church. 

The first is that we share Apostolic Succession.

And the Second is that we share a faith that is sufficient to salvation.

The third is that our sacraments are mutually grace-filled.

And so despite the fact that there are claims, on all sides, to the contrary, the Church has decided that rather than keep the anger going, we shall release our centuries of bad feelings and embrace Orthodoxy as true Sister Churches...not with the fullness of union...but with sufficient fullness to warrant communion.

That, of course, has been received in some quarters with all kinds of doors being slammed in our faces, but I believe that it was the right and necessary thing for the Catholic Church to do and to say.


Since the Orthodox Church (and yes, that is the Orthodox Church, not your nameless Orthodox priests and friends. Those who doubt that, can see what the Orthodox Church of Romania did over Met. Nicolae Corneanu, and that was with the "Romanian Church in Union with Rome-Greek Catholic") does not share these assertions, the perplexity of what you all think you "accomplishing." Because it seems yet another attempt to con us into thinking we believe the same "so why don't you submit to the Vicar of Christ and sign on the dotted line for the union?"

Dear Fellow Catholic,

I have been at this business of informal dialogue for seventeen years now and I can tell you that you do not represent universal Orthodoxy, however much you might hope to do so.

The days of untrammeled unionist vs. anti-unionist bullying are over.  

Instant communications makes our mutual warts too difficult to hide any more.   True historians have improved access to all kinds of archives which will do much to allow the ordinary fellow to refute pseudo-history.

And most importantly of all, the ability to actually "see" our similarities as faithful people is increasing exponentially.  Your photos of clown masses will soon be nearly 100 years old and will no longer pack the same punch....They do not even now because it should be evident to all that the photo gallery is quite dated already.

So you'd best crow now while you still can.  

Resumed communion is coming, and coming at a rate that you cannot stop.

In Christ,

Mary
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« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2010, 11:35:45 AM »

Not in that canon, but that is the general reason given by our Church for why we are not to commune in non-Catholic churches (except the EO in certain circumstances apparently) because we are not doctrinally unified, and communing implies doctrinal unity.

And Nestorian, OO, FSSPX and maybe somewhere else...
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« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2010, 11:41:43 AM »

Communing does not imply doctrinal unity, any more than the reception of councils requires a democratic head count of the faithful, any more than the consensus of the Fathers requires, God help us, that all the patristic Father, or even most of the patristic Fathers agree on all things, jot for tittle, black and white.

The trouble that we have is that in one area we apply this criteria for truth,  and in another we apply that criteria for truth; we talk past one another; bully each other; and at the end of the day we are all too emotionally and spiritually exhausted to give a tinkers dam about any of it.  

Then we wait till the next generation or the next hundred years and try again.

Well that is not going to happen this time.  

One of the things you would be well served to start doing, Wyatt, would be to stop make "faith" the equivalent of "belief"...and rethink the two: and then move on to the meaning and identification of doctrine and how that fits, in real life on the ground, with faith and belief.

M.


But it that canon there is no single word about accepting the doctrine.
Not in that canon, but that is the general reason given by our Church for why we are not to commune in non-Catholic churches (except the EO in certain circumstances apparently) because we are not doctrinally unified, and communing implies doctrinal unity.

This is a little offtopic but could some Catholic explain your theological basis for accepting intercommunion?
Actually I do not think this is off topic at all. Admittedly, this is one area where I am fuzzy as far as the rationale of our Church allowing us to commune from the EO. If validity is all that is required for a Catholic to receive the Eucharist then, IMO, the lack-of-doctrinal-unity card should never be played when discussing where we are not allowed to commune. I would greatly appreciate anyone who could shed more light on the RC teaching on this.
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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2010, 11:42:23 AM »

Wyatt,
This is an interesting question and I am not certain that I can give a straight yes or no answer. I tend to side with you. The EOs are outside of the Catholic Church, so there seems no reason for us to commune with them. In fact, I do think that it is important that we never down-play our doctrinal differences. There is a real disconnect between us and them.

BUT, at the same time, they are so closely united to us in that they participate in our sacraments (their valid sacraments are not EO sacraments but Catholic Sacraments) and much of our tradition. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that the bond is so close that it all but allows for a concelebration of the liturgy.

I would like to further point out that they have not a single "ecumenical" council that comdemns the teachings of the Catholic Church, and so we can say that while many EO's dislike some of the things that Catholics believe, that has not been dogmatically condemned by an Ecumenical council. This leaves great room for them to come back into the Church.

That all being said, I am Catholic. I will receive communion in a Catholic Church. The only way I could imagine doing otherwise is if I was on my deathbed and no Catholic priest was available and an EO, OO, or ACE priest were to offer me viaticum.
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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2010, 11:43:14 AM »


Resumed communion is coming, and coming at a rate that you cannot stop.


Ooo, Mary, you are scary, even more scary than the huge bangs from the fireworks going off for Guy Fawkes day!

There will be no communion between us until we share the communion of a common unifying faith.

Read Bp Kallistos Ware's "Communion and Intercommunion."
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« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2010, 11:52:33 AM »

Wyatt,
This is an interesting question and I am not certain that I can give a straight yes or no answer. I tend to side with you. The EOs are outside of the Catholic Church, so there seems no reason for us to commune with them. In fact, I do think that it is important that we never down-play our doctrinal differences. There is a real disconnect between us and them.

BUT, at the same time, they are so closely united to us in that they participate in our sacraments (their valid sacraments are not EO sacraments but Catholic Sacraments) and much of our tradition. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that the bond is so close that it all but allows for a concelebration of the liturgy.

I would like to further point out that they have not a single "ecumenical" council that comdemns the teachings of the Catholic Church, and so we can say that while many EO's dislike some of the things that Catholics believe, that has not been dogmatically condemned by an Ecumenical council. This leaves great room for them to come back into the Church.

That all being said, I am Catholic. I will receive communion in a Catholic Church. The only way I could imagine doing otherwise is if I was on my deathbed and no Catholic priest was available and an EO, OO, or ACE priest were to offer me viaticum.

You have said something very important here at the end.  The operative word is "offer"...If an Orthodox priest was at my deathbed and refused to hear my last confession, I would not beg for it, but if it were offered and there were no other, then yes, I would gratefully accept.

As to the rest of, with some minor adjusting, I'd be happy to agree with it.  laugh...ain't that good of me?
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« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2010, 11:57:16 AM »

And so despite the fact that there are claims, on all sides, to the contrary, the Church has decided that rather than keep the anger going, we shall release our centuries of bad feelings and embrace Orthodoxy as true Sister Churches...not with the fullness of union...but with sufficient fullness to warrant communion.

Thank you for your answer. But this raises another question. That seems to imply that there is some kind of hierarchy of doctrines in Catholic dogma and that one can somewhat dismiss not-so-important doctrines without losing salvation or communion with Rome. If so, doesn't that render papacy to one of those not-so-important doctrines since we don't accept it?

I would like to further point out that they have not a single "ecumenical" council that comdemns the teachings of the Catholic Church, and so we can say that while many EO's dislike some of the things that Catholics believe, that has not been dogmatically condemned by an Ecumenical council. This leaves great room for them to come back into the Church.

So the RCC doesn't know the concept of unwritten Tradition? RC Tradition consists of doctrines which has been codified by the Councils and Popes? I ask think since that is what your message seems to imply. For me it's as silly thing to claim that we don't dogmatically condemn Catholic doctrines as it is silly thing to claim that we don't believe in real presence in Eucharist since neither of them has been codified by an Ecumenical Council. Of course we do.
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« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2010, 12:08:55 PM »

Communing does not imply doctrinal unity

Are you sure about that, Mary? For the Orthodox, there must be communion in faith and prayer before there can be communion in sacris (if that's the Latin expression I'm looking for). Sure, non-Orthodox commune from Orthodox chalices on the sly and Orthodox priests knowingly commune non-Orthodox, but these things should not happen. Indeed, this is a very dangerous thing. Accident is one thing, prideful disobedience another. Anecdotal evidence is one thing, Church teaching another.
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« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2010, 12:27:42 PM »

And so despite the fact that there are claims, on all sides, to the contrary, the Church has decided that rather than keep the anger going, we shall release our centuries of bad feelings and embrace Orthodoxy as true Sister Churches...not with the fullness of union...but with sufficient fullness to warrant communion.

Thank you for your answer. But this raises another question. That seems to imply that there is some kind of hierarchy of doctrines in Catholic dogma and that one can somewhat dismiss not-so-important doctrines without losing salvation or communion with Rome. If so, doesn't that render papacy to one of those not-so-important doctrines since we don't accept it?

Not ever word or act of the Catholic Church is immutable.  Not every word of every ecumenical council is absolutely written in stone.  Not every canon carries doctrinal weight.   Some are some are not.

The ordination of married men is mutable.

The ordination of women is not.

Papal infallibility and primacy are part of de fide doctrine, which means that we are bound by the truth to accept this doctrine as it has been defined over time, and more than that:  we are asked to accept it in faith as it works to support the core doctrine of the Church which are the Christological doctrine.

The hierarchy of truths does not determine some sort of rank order of what may or may not be believed.

Rather the hierarchy of truths helps to show us the wholeness of our doctrinal teachings and how and where they fit in relationship to the core Christological doctrines, and how they support those doctrines.

These are the formal teachings.

To accept a teaching with assent of the will and intellect means that we take a teaching as it is given to us and try to see how it might be true, how it might fit well with other teachings, and how it might well serve the lives of the faithful.  We are asked to first think about a thing in a positive light rather than being self-willed and working hard to see how it might be wrong.  It does not mean that we cannot discuss these things and even disagree with certain aspects of the teaching, and to do so quite actively unless we have been asked specifically not to do so.

To accept a teaching with the assent of faith or de fide, is essentially asking the faithful to go through the same process as the assent of will or intellect, but to lock it in even more clearly and not ever to call that teaching by the name of heresy, even if we do not fully understand or agree with it.   We may think about it, talk about it, but never work to divide the Church over it.

I hope this is helping a little.

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« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2010, 12:30:05 PM »

Communing does not imply doctrinal unity,

you're right. It doesn't imply it, it demans it.

Quote
any more than the reception of councils requires a democratic head count of the faithful,

Are you mischaracterizing the Consensus of the Faithful here?  At the Council of Jerusalem St. James didn't take a democratic head count of the Faithul, but he did gather the "Apostles, presbyters and the Brethren" and issued the decision in their name.  It works.  Your ecclesiastical community should go back to trying it, once you get your Apostolic succession back in line. You woudn't be in your present mess.

Quote
any more than the consensus of the Fathers requires, God help us, that all the patristic Father, or even most of the patristic Fathers agree on all things, jot for tittle, black and white.

On that we agree, although that doesn't help your Ultramontanism, nor its intercommunion folly.

Quote
The trouble that we have is that in one area we apply this criteria for truth,  and in another we apply that criteria for truth; we talk past one another; bully each other; and at the end of the day we are all too emotionally and spiritually exhausted to give a tinkers dam about any of it.

Maybe you all do, but we don't.  That's why we do not have intercommunion.

Quote
Then we wait till the next generation or the next hundred years and try again.

Well that is not going to happen this time.  

One of the things you would be well served to start doing, Wyatt, would be to stop make "faith" the equivalent of "belief"...and rethink the two: and then move on to the meaning and identification of doctrine and how that fits, in real life on the ground, with faith and belief.

jesuitry.
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« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2010, 01:01:39 PM »

Communing does not imply doctrinal unity

Are you sure about that, Mary? For the Orthodox, there must be communion in faith and prayer before there can be communion in sacris (if that's the Latin expression I'm looking for). Sure, non-Orthodox commune from Orthodox chalices on the sly and Orthodox priests knowingly commune non-Orthodox, but these things should not happen. Indeed, this is a very dangerous thing. Accident is one thing, prideful disobedience another. Anecdotal evidence is one thing, Church teaching another.

I am sure.  I am sure because I know without doubt that each time I commune I commune with millions of other Catholics who do not see Catholic teaching in precisely the same way that I do.

I am sure.  I am sure because I know that there are Orthodox communing with other Orthodox and they do not all see Orthodox teaching in precisely the same way either, one to the other.

Many Catholics and Orthodox are not certain of what it is precisely that their Churches DO actually teach on this or that issue or point and even when they know there is disagreement and misunderstanding that gets in the way of absolute unity.

So there is no question that we live, in relationship to revealed truth, it a state of disunity and confusion.

There is no question that the Church is established to minimize that disunity and confusion and work to bring forth spiritual and real unity and insight.

But to imagine that any of our respective confessions are successful in any absolute manner is an absurdity, by definition.

Given that reality, then our respective Confessions much ask themselves and each other, how much unity and commonality is enough for the salvation of souls...and then they must work toward that for unity, because that is what we are commanded to do...by the head of both of our confessions...Jesus the Christ.

M.
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« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2010, 01:06:12 PM »


Quote
One of the things you would be well served to start doing, Wyatt, would be to stop make "faith" the equivalent of "belief"...and rethink the two: and then move on to the meaning and identification of doctrine and how that fits, in real life on the ground, with faith and belief.

jesuitry.

Nonsense, my dear fellow Catholic!

There is a very real difference between faith and the content of confessional teaching which we believe and profess!!

Faith is much much more than the sum total of what it is that we believe!!

Your Lutheran background would cause you to have no little difficulty with that idea!!  I have seen it many times before.

M
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« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2010, 01:35:54 PM »


Quote
One of the things you would be well served to start doing, Wyatt, would be to stop make "faith" the equivalent of "belief"...and rethink the two: and then move on to the meaning and identification of doctrine and how that fits, in real life on the ground, with faith and belief.

jesuitry.

Nonsense, my dear fellow Catholic!

There is a very real difference between faith and the content of confessional teaching which we believe and profess!!

Faith is much much more than the sum total of what it is that we believe!!

Your Lutheran background would cause you to have no little difficulty with that idea!!  I have seen it many times before.

M
I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin
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« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2010, 02:03:44 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
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« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2010, 02:05:18 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?
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« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2010, 02:12:53 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
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« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2010, 02:25:55 PM »


Quote
One of the things you would be well served to start doing, Wyatt, would be to stop make "faith" the equivalent of "belief"...and rethink the two: and then move on to the meaning and identification of doctrine and how that fits, in real life on the ground, with faith and belief.

jesuitry.

Nonsense, my dear fellow Catholic!

Yes, jesuitry is nonsense. Catholics should stay away from it and keep the purity of our Orthodox Faith.

Quote
There is a very real difference between faith and the content of confessional teaching which we believe and profess!!

Since we are not a confessinal demonination, it doesn't concern us.  Since the Vatican professes a very real difference between its faith and our Orthodox Faith, what it believes doesn't interest us.

Quote
Faith is much much more than the sum total of what it is that we believe!!

Your Lutheran background would cause you to have no little difficulty with that idea!!

I have left my Lutheran background, and the practice of receiving sacraments from the Vatican that I did when I was in it.

Quote
I have seen it many times before.

Seen what?
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« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2010, 02:28:02 PM »


Quote
One of the things you would be well served to start doing, Wyatt, would be to stop make "faith" the equivalent of "belief"...and rethink the two: and then move on to the meaning and identification of doctrine and how that fits, in real life on the ground, with faith and belief.

jesuitry.

Nonsense, my dear fellow Catholic!

There is a very real difference between faith and the content of confessional teaching which we believe and profess!!

Faith is much much more than the sum total of what it is that we believe!!

Your Lutheran background would cause you to have no little difficulty with that idea!!  I have seen it many times before.

M
I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin
And the Mormons will "baptise you into their church" when you are dead.  It just means someone else gets wet.

What you don't know can hurt you.
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« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2010, 02:31:16 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

That is true of course.
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« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2010, 02:36:34 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

since the Vatican is in heresy, what he says is immaterial.

Quote
They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

And whatever status you accord yourself in your own eyes is immaterial to the Orthodox confession.

Quote
They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded,

We're quite fine, as is our communion with the Orthodox Popes of the Catholic Church, whether at Rome or Alexandria, and with Bishop Siluan of Rome.

Quote
and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley
ah, the jesuitry of your magisterium!
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« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2010, 02:40:04 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

That is true of course.

Yes, you are as Catholic as I am and one day Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church will return to communion without more changing in either than a series of understandings between them.

And then you will either have to change your tune or find another ball room to dance your dance.

M.
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« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2010, 02:43:19 PM »

And then you will either have to change your tune or find another ball room to dance your dance.
The latter is more like it in his case. Tongue
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« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2010, 02:49:50 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

M.
Do you believe them to be members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Absolutely

According to our Holy Father they are in material and not formal schism.

They are possessed of graced sacraments and also Apostolic Succession and are fully my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Whether they accord me the same status in their eyes is immaterial to what I am taught by my own confession.

They are not in communion with the Pope of the Catholic Church, and by that fact our unity is wounded as well as their own unity being wounded, and that is documented and formalized as a truth and teaching of the Catholic Church.  It is not however a doctrine, nor is it in the nature of doctrine.   Smiley

M.
This seems to be branch theory, which suggests that the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is not one in and of herself, but divided. It also appears to contradict Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
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« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2010, 02:50:10 PM »

Wait, so I'm Orthodox and Catholic?  Nooooo! Tongue  But I was baptized by Catholics but never confirmed, doesn't that make me an apostate or something?
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« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2010, 02:51:31 PM »

Wait, so I'm Orthodox and Catholic?  Nooooo! Tongue  But I was baptized by Catholics but never confirmed, doesn't that make me an apostate or something?
LOL! I think you are happily Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2010, 02:59:49 PM »

I love that. I tell Christians outside of the Church's boundaries that they are Catholic (because of their baptism) but they just don't know it.  Grin

The Orthodox ARE Catholics, and always have been.

That is true of course.

Yes, you are as Catholic as I am

No, the Catholic Church will give me commuion.

Quote
and one day Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church will return to communion

As, Orthodoxy is the soul that animates the body of the Catholic Church, you sentence makes no sense.

Quote
without more changing in either than a series of understandings between them.

But as Fr. Ambrose has pointed out, your misty, rarified ecclesiastical "reality" is beyond understanding.

Quote
And then you will either have to change your tune or find another ball room to dance your dance.
O.K, Pied Piper.

And then you will either have to change your tune or find another ball room to dance your dance.
The latter is more like it in his case. Tongue

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