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Author Topic: Antiochian Met. Phillip fires priest for wearing cassock  (Read 16712 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2011, 04:25:31 PM »

Fr. Deacon Joseph, I have never seen the Roman sign of peace in an Orthodox Church, and I also don't agree with recognising non-Chalcedonians, communing Muslims (who on earth did this?) or participation in the ecumenical movement.

All of those occurred in the Antiochian jurisdiction of Metropolitan Philip in America.
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« Reply #136 on: May 01, 2011, 04:43:55 PM »

I am curious.  Both the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR have many convert priests, deacons, subdeacons and readers in the UK.  Is this a convert issue or a Russian one?

A Russian one - the Greek convert priests also keep their cassocks on. I was told it dates to Soviet times when clerical garb was not to be worn outside of church, and, as one Russian monk told me, 'you'd have to wash your cassock every day if you wore it on the dirty streets of Moscow during the winter'.
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« Reply #137 on: May 01, 2011, 04:51:40 PM »


Fr. Deacon Joseph, I have never seen the Roman sign of peace in an Orthodox Church

Subdeacon David,

That's because the Kiss of Peace among the laity isn't a Roman innovation; it fell out of use in the middle ages, and many people forgot it's an organic part of Orthodoxy. Some Romans restored it in their churches, so it is erroneously labeled a Roman Catholic innovation when it's used in Orthodoxy.

Some, however, as Fr. Deacon Joseph might (forgive me if I am mischaracterizing) view its restoration as untimely, and part of a congregationalist/anti-clericalist attitude taken over from Protestantism. There is probably some degree of truth to the latter, IMO.
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« Reply #138 on: May 01, 2011, 05:02:22 PM »

The full psalms of the Antiphons? Those were cut out in the Greek tradition long ago, in the early 19th century I believe. It's not some Vatican II-motivated modernist move, and it has nothing to do with the calendar.

As it was noted, they have to keep the building intact because it's historical. Take it up with the city council if you don't like that, or give the parish money to build a proper temple. We only rarely get everything we want in a church building.

As I am not in the Greek Church I will leave the Antiphon alone, since you admit the calendar, but still permit it.

Since Subdeacon David is from Hobart, I am sure that he's probably aware of what I am referring to in terms of ecumenism; after all, that's where Fr Michael (Wood) does some of his business, developing the "Anglo-Catholic" rite of ROCOR. I'm just surprised the Eastern rite churches do the same there.

Fr. Deacon Joseph, as I imagine you know, there are many views on the
Quote
"Anglo-Catholic" rite of ROCOR
and my own is pretty much out there.  I refer you to the current edition of the ROCOR Australian and New Zealand Diocesn quarterly magazine, Word of the Church Слово Церкви which reprints verbatim an article by Archpriest Phillip Andrews of the UK Diocese of ROCOR:http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/disang.htm The article is really another topic however it is interesting that it has been repeated in the Australian publication:
Quote
Some former Anglicans have in the past joined the Orthodox Church. Many have integrated the Faith and, after joining, have actually become Orthodox. Others, sad to say, having joined the Orthodox Church for negative reasons (disillusionment with the C of E) or for purely academic reasons and not for positive reasons (the realisation that without Orthodoxy their souls will die), and so not become Orthodox. As a result they have tended to split off from the mainstream, closing themselves off in little groups, where they practise what is in fact an approximate if very confused Orthodox rite with Anglican practices, a ‘make it up as you go along’ attitude. This means intercommunion, no confession, no fasting, sitting down during the services (indeed, virtually no services beyond the eucharistic liturgy), the use of Anglican hymns, the use of the Anglican calendar, no iconostasis, parish politics, and ‘protesting’ (= Protestant) attitudes towards Orthodox bishops and resulting divisions and boycotts of their respective cathedrals and bishops.

Another problem here is the refusal by many ex-Anglicans to accept that Orthodoxy is international. Unfortunately, Anglicans who are used to ‘uninational’ parishes find it very difficult to accept the multinational parishes, which are the reality of real Orthodoxy. Without the presence of other Orthodox nationalities, they will not learn Orthodoxy, they will not actually become Orthodox. The presence of ‘foreigners’ among them should be greeted by them and they should accommodate them, accepting parts of the service in ‘foreign’ languages (xenophobes must realise that every ‘foreign’ language is someone else’s native language). The nationalist exclusivity of many ex-Anglicans, to be frank, their phyletism or nationalism, and refusal to come to terms with the sometimes very, very dark national history of England/Britain (1), is not acceptable in the multinational Orthodox world. In our parish we have eighteen nationalities, from Russian to Greek, Romanian to Syrian, Australian to Latvian, French to Bulgarian – this is reality. History shows us that tiny ex-Anglican groups, unintegrated into the mainstream of the Orthodox Church, are basically just more ‘Continuing Anglican Churches’ and are not taken seriously by the rest of the Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #139 on: May 01, 2011, 05:46:12 PM »

Subdeacon David,

That's because the Kiss of Peace among the laity isn't a Roman innovation; it fell out of use in the middle ages, and many people forgot it's an organic part of Orthodoxy. Some Romans restored it in their churches, so it is erroneously labeled a Roman Catholic innovation when it's used in Orthodoxy.

From any stretch of the imagination, the current use of the sign of peace among the Romans is an innovation, unless we want to pretend we create a pretend version of what was done in the third century.

Quote
Some, however, as Fr. Deacon Joseph might (forgive me if I am mischaracterizing) view its restoration as untimely, and part of a congregationalist/anti-clericalist attitude taken over from Protestantism. There is probably some degree of truth to the latter, IMO.

As it is in its current method, of course I would. At around the time of the schism in the West, the use of an osculatorium developed (which we use). As we in practice use the icon on the Templon in the Eastern rite similarly, there is just no reason to reintroduce such public displays of affection in the Church. Culture has changed sufficiently (it has become more Christian over 2 millenia in this way, perhaps due to the fact that the surrounding society has become that much more ill) that it is no longer proper to introduce these practices, which were innocent and among those who knew Christ and the Apostles, but today is an excuse for impropriety.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 05:57:18 PM by Suaiden » Logged

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« Reply #140 on: May 01, 2011, 05:49:55 PM »

it is no longer proper to introduce these practices, which were innocent and among those who knew Christ and the Apostles, but today is an excuse for impropriety.
Father,

So you are saying that today, there is temptation involved with such physical contact, and this is the primary reason why it should not be re-introduced?
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« Reply #141 on: May 01, 2011, 05:54:43 PM »

Fr. Deacon Joseph, as I imagine you know, there are many views on the
Quote
"Anglo-Catholic" rite of ROCOR
and my own is pretty much out there.  I refer you to the current edition of the ROCOR Australian and New Zealand Diocesn quarterly magazine, Word of the Church Слово Церкви which reprints verbatim an article by Archpriest Phillip Andrews of the UK Diocese of ROCOR:http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/disang.htm The article is really another topic however it is interesting that it has been repeated in the Australian publication:
Quote
Some former Anglicans have in the past joined the Orthodox Church. Many have integrated the Faith and, after joining, have actually become Orthodox. Others, sad to say, having joined the Orthodox Church for negative reasons (disillusionment with the C of E) or for purely academic reasons and not for positive reasons (the realisation that without Orthodoxy their souls will die), and so not become Orthodox. As a result they have tended to split off from the mainstream, closing themselves off in little groups, where they practise what is in fact an approximate if very confused Orthodox rite with Anglican practices, a ‘make it up as you go along’ attitude. This means intercommunion, no confession, no fasting, sitting down during the services (indeed, virtually no services beyond the eucharistic liturgy), the use of Anglican hymns, the use of the Anglican calendar, no iconostasis, parish politics, and ‘protesting’ (= Protestant) attitudes towards Orthodox bishops and resulting divisions and boycotts of their respective cathedrals and bishops.

Another problem here is the refusal by many ex-Anglicans to accept that Orthodoxy is international. Unfortunately, Anglicans who are used to ‘uninational’ parishes find it very difficult to accept the multinational parishes, which are the reality of real Orthodoxy. Without the presence of other Orthodox nationalities, they will not learn Orthodoxy, they will not actually become Orthodox. The presence of ‘foreigners’ among them should be greeted by them and they should accommodate them, accepting parts of the service in ‘foreign’ languages (xenophobes must realise that every ‘foreign’ language is someone else’s native language). The nationalist exclusivity of many ex-Anglicans, to be frank, their phyletism or nationalism, and refusal to come to terms with the sometimes very, very dark national history of England/Britain (1), is not acceptable in the multinational Orthodox world. In our parish we have eighteen nationalities, from Russian to Greek, Romanian to Syrian, Australian to Latvian, French to Bulgarian – this is reality. History shows us that tiny ex-Anglican groups, unintegrated into the mainstream of the Orthodox Church, are basically just more ‘Continuing Anglican Churches’ and are not taken seriously by the rest of the Orthodox Church.

Unfortunately, as open as some of your clergy seem to be in promulgating the views you name above, they seem to be getting "promoted" by your Metropolitan.

The author of this site: http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/

Now represents the Western Rite of ROCOR outside the U.S. Inside, it is represented by a former "married Bishop" vagante, both by order of Metropolitan Hilarion. If your leaders didn't make such choices, I'd probably be able to take them more seriously.
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« Reply #142 on: May 01, 2011, 06:04:17 PM »

Father,

So you are saying that today, there is temptation involved with such physical contact, and this is the primary reason why it should not be re-introduced?

I'm saying that's why it fell out of disuse in the first place, and that the deformers of the modern West "restored" it for that very reason. Very early on, it was replaced with the kiss of sacred vestments and vessels in East and West, well before the point of the schism. And, having been raised a post-Vatican II Catholic, it was an excuse for immodesty ages ago when I was one, at least by some I knew.

So many of those "restorations" were but an excuse for licentiousness.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 06:05:50 PM by Suaiden » Logged

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« Reply #143 on: May 01, 2011, 06:16:06 PM »

When I was in the RCC, the Sign of Peace consisted of a handshake. I'm not sure how that's a door to licentiousness. The only church in which I've been kissed on the cheek as a greeting, is the Orthodox one I now attend.
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« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2011, 06:24:33 PM »

So many of those "restorations" were but an excuse for licentiousness.

You seem like a real delight.
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« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2011, 06:55:21 PM »

When I was in the RCC, the Sign of Peace consisted of a handshake. I'm not sure how that's a door to licentiousness. The only church in which I've been kissed on the cheek as a greeting, is the Orthodox one I now attend.

There is no definite "sign of peace" in the RCC, so that's just your experience speaking. It can be a handshake, a wave, a kiss on the cheek, or more, sadly. Here's from one RC instruction: "The nature of the sign is to be determined by the culture of the people who express it. In the United States, the bishops let local communities determine the actions and words. We have no set formula or gesture for extending this sign. Most often worshipers will shake hands and say, "Peace be with you." But you may also see them kiss or embrace, wave or flash a two-fingered sign of peace. Although today it would seem cold to omit the sign of peace, it is optional." http://www.rpinet.com/ml/2508bi1.html

Most Orthodox cultures have some level of affection involved in a greeting to begin with, as do many Latin cultures. In such a situation, it would have less import than in a more distant community. That said, in most traditional Orthodox Churches, men are separated from the women anyway, and there is a sense of what is inappropriate. "Doing what works for you" as in the RCC is opening a pandora's box.
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« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2011, 06:59:01 PM »

So many of those "restorations" were but an excuse for licentiousness.

You seem like a real delight.

What is that supposed to mean?
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« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2011, 08:30:53 PM »

I have never ever seen my Russian rector not in a cassock even when I have stayed with him - and the local Greek priest used to wear Latin clothes but now only wears a cassock and the heterodox and unchurched instantly acknowledge and in the main respect them.

In Britain, I've hardly ever seen Russian priests wearing cassocks outside the church - jeans is the norm. Greek priests here wouldn't be caught dead without a cassock, something the Russians find very strange.

I am curious.  Both the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR have many convert priests, deacons, subdeacons and readers in the UK.  Is this a convert issue or a Russian one?

Very much a Russian one.  In Russia and Ukraine, priests put on their cassocks when they arrive at Church.
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« Reply #148 on: May 01, 2011, 11:52:56 PM »

Very much a Russian one.  In Russia and Ukraine, priests put on their cassocks when they arrive at Church.

Depends on the area. That's true in St Petersburg, not so much in Moscow.
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« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2011, 02:22:22 AM »

Very much a Russian one.  In Russia and Ukraine, priests put on their cassocks when they arrive at Church.

Depends on the area. That's true in St Petersburg, not so much in Moscow.

Other than monks, I never saw priests walking around in cassocks in Moscow while I was living there.

In Ukraine, I'd often see the local parish priest in the marketplace wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
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« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2011, 02:24:42 AM »

It's been wonderful being here in Greece, as all the Priests wear their cassocks around. (they really have to)
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« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2011, 08:02:41 AM »

Quote
That said, in most traditional Orthodox Churches, men are separated from the women anyway, and there is a sense of what is inappropriate.

I must visit a lot of modernist-ecumenist parishes, because I've only ever been in one that had the men and women separate. And come to think of it, it was a ROCOR parish that is now loyal to the Soviet-instituted-and-KGB-loving Moscow Patriarchate, so I guess they couldn't be that traditional after all. I won't tell you how we greet each other at my Antiochian parish, let me just say that it involves chocolate syrup, flexible straws, and a lot of giggling.
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« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2011, 10:12:37 AM »

Quote
That said, in most traditional Orthodox Churches, men are separated from the women anyway, and there is a sense of what is inappropriate.

I must visit a lot of modernist-ecumenist parishes, because I've only ever been in one that had the men and women separate. And come to think of it, it was a ROCOR parish that is now loyal to the Soviet-instituted-and-KGB-loving Moscow Patriarchate, so I guess they couldn't be that traditional after all. I won't tell you how we greet each other at my Antiochian parish, let me just say that it involves chocolate syrup, flexible straws, and a lot of giggling.

I don't know, I was at one Antiochian parish that used strawberry syrup that week.... Wink Wink In ACROD we were advised that flexible straws were a horrible Western innovation. lol
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« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2011, 01:26:40 PM »

Fr. Deacon Joseph, I have never seen the Roman sign of peace in an Orthodox Church, and I also don't agree with recognising non-Chalcedonians, communing Muslims (who on earth did this?) or participation in the ecumenical movement.

All of those occurred in the Antiochian jurisdiction of Metropolitan Philip in America.

 Huh Huh  When and where?  I suppose since you said this you have some kind of documentation?  And, is "participation in the ecumenical movement" a) something you find distasteful? or b) a sin to be confessed and absolved of?  Just what do you mean, too, by "the ecumenical movement"?  (I hope I'm not opening a can of worms with *that* one! Grin)
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« Reply #154 on: May 02, 2011, 01:28:01 PM »

Quote
That said, in most traditional Orthodox Churches, men are separated from the women anyway, and there is a sense of what is inappropriate.

I must visit a lot of modernist-ecumenist parishes, because I've only ever been in one that had the men and women separate. And come to think of it, it was a ROCOR parish that is now loyal to the Soviet-instituted-and-KGB-loving Moscow Patriarchate, so I guess they couldn't be that traditional after all. I won't tell you how we greet each other at my Antiochian parish, let me just say that it involves chocolate syrup, flexible straws, and a lot of giggling.

I don't know, I was at one Antiochian parish that used strawberry syrup that week.... Wink Wink In ACROD we were advised that flexible straws were a horrible Western innovation. lol

LOL!!   Grin Grin Grin
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Tags: Despotism Antiochian vestments clerical dress ecumenism AOA Modernism 
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