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Author Topic: Antiochian Met. Phillip fires priest for wearing cassock  (Read 16379 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2010, 04:44:27 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.
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« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2010, 05:01:58 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.

Well, specifically this mess that those of us in the AOCA find ourselves at the moment. It's just really frustrating, because I really love my parish, but when I can't trust the leadership it is sad.
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« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2010, 05:02:37 PM »

I forgot to note that in my family's history, my grandparents were faced with a choice of conscience during the 1930's when Rome cracked down on the Greek Catholic church in America. The Greek Catholic Bishop of Pittsburgh during that time, +Basil Takach was as reviled as any hierarch in our modern Orthodox world.  My grandfather was a delegate to the Pittsburgh conference that first petitioned Rome for relief from its dictates and violations of the Union of Uzhorod and later elected +Fr. Orestes as Bishop and petitioned the Ecumenical Throne for reception into Orthodoxy. For those acts he, and many others, were formally excommunicated from the Catholic Church, forced out of the Rusyn American fraternal insurance organization (the Greek Catholic Union) and ultimately out of the large and beautiful temples they built when they first came to America. So I know full well the gravity of the crisis our Antiochian brothers and sisters face, regardless of where they stand, All of these struggles and choices that my family members endured were, in the end, worth the price that was paid. Our friends need our prayers and not our judgmental, emotional comments.
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« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2010, 05:11:14 PM »

I fear for my bishops, both of them (one a Metropolitan, and one a bishop--and he is not a mere token auxiliary, but a bishop!), though I fear for each for very different reasons. Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2010, 05:15:43 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.

Well, specifically this mess that those of us in the AOCA find ourselves at the moment. It's just really frustrating, because I really love my parish, but when I can't trust the leadership it is sad.

I agree that it is sad.  The whole of human history is sad.  Our leadership, i.e. bishops, metropolitans, patriarchs, priests are all *human*, and as such just are subject to sinful behavior as you or me or anyone else.  Trust our leadership?  Yes, that would be wonderful.  And I'm sure there are leaders in the Church who are perfectly trustworthy and wonderful.  I'd also bet that they're a minority.  Trust in God, and "render unto Caesar..."  And trust in God.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 05:16:29 PM by tomowapig » Logged
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« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2010, 05:19:16 PM »

"Trust in Allah... but tie up your camel!" - Sinbad the Sailor
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« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2010, 05:31:19 PM »

"Trust in Allah... but tie up your camel!" - Sinbad the Sailor

Yup!!
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« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2010, 06:17:45 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.

Well, specifically this mess that those of us in the AOCA find ourselves at the moment. It's just really frustrating, because I really love my parish, but when I can't trust the leadership it is sad.

I agree that it is sad.  The whole of human history is sad.  Our leadership, i.e. bishops, metropolitans, patriarchs, priests are all *human*, and as such just are subject to sinful behavior as you or me or anyone else.  Trust our leadership?  Yes, that would be wonderful.  And I'm sure there are leaders in the Church who are perfectly trustworthy and wonderful.  I'd also bet that they're a minority.  Trust in God, and "render unto Caesar..."  And trust in God.

Most leaders in the Church are trustworthy and wonderful; sorry for your disillusionment.
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« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2010, 06:30:10 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.

Well, specifically this mess that those of us in the AOCA find ourselves at the moment. It's just really frustrating, because I really love my parish, but when I can't trust the leadership it is sad.

I agree that it is sad.  The whole of human history is sad.  Our leadership, i.e. bishops, metropolitans, patriarchs, priests are all *human*, and as such just are subject to sinful behavior as you or me or anyone else.  Trust our leadership?  Yes, that would be wonderful.  And I'm sure there are leaders in the Church who are perfectly trustworthy and wonderful.  I'd also bet that they're a minority.  Trust in God, and "render unto Caesar..."  And trust in God.

Most leaders in the Church are trustworthy and wonderful; sorry for your disillusionment.

Yeah, me too Cheesy.  Now, I may have exaggerated some by saying that the wonderful, trustworthy ones are a minority, because I just plain don't know for sure.  By the same token, I'd bet you don't *know*, either, that most of our Church leaders *are* wonderful and trustworthy.

Be that as it may, I guess we tend to hear far more about the "bad" ones than the "good" ones, hence that makes it at least *seem* that there are more bad than good.

At the end of the day, however, it isn't our leaders or even our priests that get us to heaven or keep us from it.  We do that all by ourselves in choosing to join ourselves to Christ or separate ourselves from Him.
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« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2010, 06:33:59 PM »

Most leaders in the Church are trustworthy and wonderful; sorry for your disillusionment.

St. John Chrysostom said "I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish: and the reason is, that it is an affair that requires a great mind. Many are the exigencies which throw a man out of his natural temper; and he had need have a thousand eyes on all sides. Do you not see what a number of qualifications the Bishop must have? To be apt to teach, patient, holding fast the faithful word in doctrine. What trouble and pains does this require!" (Homily 3 on Acts)

Of course, it's good to always, always give your bishop the benefit of the doubt. And you have to generally stick with him, whatever you may think of him, unless he starts going way out in left field (heresy, etc.)
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« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2010, 06:43:21 PM »

Quote
Now, I may have exaggerated some by saying that the wonderful, trustworthy ones are a minority, because I just plain don't know for sure.  By the same token, I'd bet you don't *know*, either, that most of our Church leaders *are* wonderful and trustworthy.

I would bet given that podkarpatska is a lifelong member of the Orthodox Church, and displays an insightful and balanced view of how the history of Orthodoxy has unfolded in this country, that some deference should be given to his opinion.
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« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2010, 07:34:24 PM »

At the end of the day, however, it isn't our leaders or even our priests that get us to heaven or keep us from it.  We do that all by ourselves in choosing to join ourselves to Christ or separate ourselves from Him.

This deserves its own topic.  I think I'll start it.
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« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2010, 12:10:12 PM »

Quote
Now, I may have exaggerated some by saying that the wonderful, trustworthy ones are a minority, because I just plain don't know for sure.  By the same token, I'd bet you don't *know*, either, that most of our Church leaders *are* wonderful and trustworthy.

I would bet given that podkarpatska is a lifelong member of the Orthodox Church, and displays an insightful and balanced view of how the history of Orthodoxy has unfolded in this country, that some deference should be given to his opinion.

I would agree with you.  However, there *is* a difference between *knowing* and *opining*, right?
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« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2010, 12:32:55 PM »


I think podkarpatska has every right to say what he "knows" to be true in his church.

The priests and heirarchs he has dealings with are truthful and honest - that is not necessarily just an "opinion" of his, but, something he knows to be a fact.

I would second his knowledge - as I would add my own bishops to the list of honorable and trustworthy Shepherds - worthy to be followed!

Just because there's a few bad apples...should not disillusion the faithful or be the reason for them doubting Orthodoxy.  Historically such things have happened before.  Maybe, it's a way of the Lord to snip out the bad fruit from His vineyard.  Remember, He is still in charge.

 
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« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2010, 12:36:34 PM »


I think podkarpatska has every right to say what he "knows" to be true in his church.

The priests and heirarchs he has dealings with are truthful and honest - that is not necessarily just an "opinion" of his, but, something he knows to be a fact.

I would second his knowledge - as I would add my own bishops to the list of honorable and trustworthy Shepherds - worthy to be followed!

Just because there's a few bad apples...should not disillusion the faithful or be the reason for them doubting Orthodoxy.  Historically such things have happened before.  Maybe, it's a way of the Lord to snip out the bad fruit from His vineyard.  Remember, He is still in charge.

 

I shall concede the point.  I don't want to get into a p_____g contest. 
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« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2010, 10:36:11 PM »

Then there was the odd case where the Bishop Demetri of Ohio was taking medication and wound up at a casino with an (unidentified?) woman and became incoherent with alcohol. He claimed he can't remember the incident. Did he even remember going to the casino in the first place? Nothing? What a weird story.
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« Reply #106 on: November 13, 2010, 11:11:33 PM »

Then there was the odd case where the Bishop Demetri of Ohio was taking medication and wound up at a casino with an (unidentified?) woman and became incoherent with alcohol. He claimed he can't remember the incident. Did he even remember going to the casino in the first place? Nothing? What a weird story.

And Met. Philip wants to reinstate him??
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« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2010, 01:18:04 AM »

Then there was the odd case where the Bishop Demetri of Ohio was taking medication and wound up at a casino with an (unidentified?) woman and became incoherent with alcohol. He claimed he can't remember the incident. Did he even remember going to the casino in the first place? Nothing? What a weird story.

And Met. Philip wants to reinstate him??

Maybe there is something unexpected- like he was on certain medication, or someone taking advantage of him. These things happen in rare instances, and it does sound like a weird case. I mean, did he remember going to the casino in the first place, or was he wacked out when he got there?
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« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2010, 03:00:47 PM »

Then there was the odd case where the Bishop Demetri of Ohio was taking medication and wound up at a casino with an (unidentified?) woman and became incoherent with alcohol. He claimed he can't remember the incident. Did he even remember going to the casino in the first place? Nothing? What a weird story.

And Met. Philip wants to reinstate him??

Maybe there is something unexpected- like he was on certain medication, or someone taking advantage of him. These things happen in rare instances, and it does sound like a weird case. I mean, did he remember going to the casino in the first place, or was he wacked out when he got there?

and then the woman, the alcohol...etc. etc.
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« Reply #109 on: November 15, 2010, 01:36:50 PM »

What is difficult to understand with this situation is that America should be wide open to Orthodoxy and the church should seem to be able to flourish here (to some degree), if it is what it claims to be, since basic religious liberty & toleration still persists. Having seen enough inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct one wonders what really the situation in America is all about. On one hand, the church cannot fall back on a former centralized cultural (& or authoritarian) system nor can it claim to persist under oppression in America. Perhaps it is the legacy of "St." (emperor) Justinian that is the basic mode of operation upon which the church exists?
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« Reply #110 on: November 15, 2010, 01:52:00 PM »

What is difficult to understand with this situation is that America should be wide open to Orthodoxy and the church should seem to be able to flourish here (to some degree), if it is what it claims to be, since basic religious liberty & toleration still persists. Having seen enough inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct one wonders what really the situation in America is all about. On one hand, the church cannot fall back on a former centralized cultural (& or authoritarian) system nor can it claim to persist under oppression in America. Perhaps it is the legacy of "St." (emperor) Justinian that is the basic mode of operation upon which the church exists?

Not wishing to put words in your mouth. Just considering what you wrote. Do you mean to say this?

If the Orthodox Church is what it claims to be, then it should flourish in America (given religious liberty)
It is not flourishing (as evidenced by inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct)
Therefore...


If so, then I guess the question is, What does the Orthodox Church claim to be that it is not?
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« Reply #111 on: November 15, 2010, 02:08:45 PM »

If the Orthodox Church is what it claims to be, then it should flourish in America (given religious liberty)
It is not flourishing (as evidenced by inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct)
Therefore...


IMO, therefore, there is a leadership problem. I'll not delve into assumptions of imorality of even crimes. I don't know enough to state anything.

But, even if there were 4 million Orthodox as had been claimed, it would mean just slightly above 1% of American population and we have found out that it is even less.

Here in Brazil, we are waiting this year's census to have new numbers. As from the last one, there were just 50 thousand Orthodox in a country with 190 million. Now we are probably over 200 million and I wouldn't expect the number of Orthodox to have increased much if anything.

Our leaders simply either don't care for growth or actually contain it. The "word of mouth" here in Brazil is that there would be a non-written agreement with the RC to actually contain growth as a kind of political "argument" to be used against RC proselytism in Orthodox lands. Something like: "you see, we contain our growth in a big catholic country, you should do the same here". I really hope that is just a kind of conspirationism because it would be very self-destructive.

In the U.S., which is Protestant, who knows? The point is that not all leaders (and lay people for that matter) see reverent and planned growth as the mission of the Orthodox Church. Some think that they just have to stay there and those who come can be welcomed, but they should not be sought for. But let's go beyond the clergy. Those who finance the Church with donations would keep doing it if it were for a local parish, with a local priest in a poor neighborhood? Again, some would, some wouldn't. This lack of agreement on "what we are here for" is what keeps the Church relatively small in the New World.

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« Reply #112 on: November 15, 2010, 03:55:18 PM »

What is difficult to understand with this situation is that America should be wide open to Orthodoxy and the church should seem to be able to flourish here (to some degree), if it is what it claims to be, since basic religious liberty & toleration still persists. Having seen enough inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct one wonders what really the situation in America is all about. On one hand, the church cannot fall back on a former centralized cultural (& or authoritarian) system nor can it claim to persist under oppression in America. Perhaps it is the legacy of "St." (emperor) Justinian that is the basic mode of operation upon which the church exists?

Not wishing to put words in your mouth. Just considering what you wrote. Do you mean to say this?

If the Orthodox Church is what it claims to be, then it should flourish in America (given religious liberty)
It is not flourishing (as evidenced by inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct)
Therefore...


If so, then I guess the question is, What does the Orthodox Church claim to be that it is not?
On the first point, you said what I mean with better grammar. The second point is that to claim the truth then there should be an obligation to share it in some way and it appears that there is not an intention to share.
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« Reply #113 on: November 15, 2010, 10:08:29 PM »

As Fr. David's wife has since deleted her post, then I will delete what she wrote here too.
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« Reply #114 on: November 25, 2010, 08:51:48 AM »

Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple.  The Antiochian Church in the US has almost zero monastic presence, and as a consequence monks as powerhouses of prayer just are not there making the significant difference that they make in the Slavic and  Greek Church.

I have never ever seen my Russian rector not in a cassock even when I have stayed with him - and the local Greek priest used to wear Latin clothes but now only wears a cassock and the heterodox and unchurched instantly acknowledge and in the main respect them.
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« Reply #115 on: November 25, 2010, 09:44:30 AM »

Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple. 
The catechumen prayers have been cut out for centuries among the Greeks.

Pews I'm not sure about, except that I have seen them in the Old World.  In Egypt we have benches, which are not much different, and have been around for a while.

Western clerical street atire is Westernization, something to be expected, being in the West.

And as the Jews say "Just because a goat has a beard doesn't make him a rabbi."

My preference for Orthodox priests, at least Eastern Rite, is for cassocks. But not being a priest, it doesn't involve me personally, nor do I take a collar as anything more sinister.
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« Reply #116 on: November 25, 2010, 10:49:59 AM »

Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple. 
The catechumen prayers have been cut out for centuries among the Greeks.

Pews I'm not sure about, except that I have seen them in the Old World.  In Egypt we have benches, which are not much different, and have been around for a while.

Western clerical street atire is Westernization, something to be expected, being in the West.

And as the Jews say "Just because a goat has a beard doesn't make him a rabbi."

My preference for Orthodox priests, at least Eastern Rite, is for cassocks. But not being a priest, it doesn't involve me personally, nor do I take a collar as anything more sinister.

Happy Thanksgiving and Thank You, Isa. I was going to reply, but coming from a family of priests I thought I would keep quiet. You expressed my sentiments better than I would have and for that, again, Thanks!
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« Reply #117 on: November 26, 2010, 02:40:22 PM »

Fr. Elias Yelovich appears to have left the mainstream Orthodox Church.  He will now pastor a parish of the "Milan Synod".  http://www.milansynodusa.org/2010/11/new-mission-in-pennsylvania.html

May God have mercy on his soul.

To me, Met. Philip's actions against him are vindicated to some degree.  However, I cannot help but think that a different bishop might have handled a Fr. Elias in such a way that would have called him to repentance, and would not have driven him from the fold so easily.
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« Reply #118 on: November 26, 2010, 03:36:12 PM »

Fr. Elias Yelovich appears to have left the mainstream Orthodox Church.  He will now pastor a parish of the "Milan Synod".  http://www.milansynodusa.org/2010/11/new-mission-in-pennsylvania.html

May God have mercy on his soul.

To me, Met. Philip's actions against him are vindicated to some degree.  However, I cannot help but think that a different bishop might have handled a Fr. Elias in such a way that would have called him to repentance, and would not have driven him from the fold so easily.

The below thread discussed Fr. Elias Yelovich dismal:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31205.msg492449.html#msg492449
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« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2010, 11:07:55 PM »


I am from Michigan and have been witness to some of the odd behavior of the Antiochian clergy who penned the first letter that put this whole thing in motion.

From what I gathered, it simply seems to me that the Antiochian clergy wish to "modernize" Orthodoxy.  I actually sat in a class for weeks that was taught by one of the priests.  Countless times "Slavic" Orthodoxy was ridiculed and called fanatical.  

At first the references seemed petty, but, after weeks of it, I actually found myself having to defend what I thought (and still do) as proper Orthodox practices.  

It isn't even just that priests should wear cassocks, or that they should have no beards.  All of this is between the hierarchs and clergy.

However, when he began disparaging the Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, etc) for their fanaticism, it was a bit much.  We pray for catechumens.  We actually yell out "the doors, the doors!", we even CLOSE the Royal Gates - how rude is that of us, and it seemed the worst thing was that we stand in church.  I was told that if I come to his church and wish to stand, I need to park myself in the back so that I do not ruin the view for those who are sitting.  We were called "Super Orthodox!" which I am certain was meant to offend, but, didn't...as he was of the opinion we stuck too closely to rules, traditions, etc.  We need to change with the times.  We need to be more flexible.

I personally, love the Orthodox Church just the way it is.  It will not die if it does not "modernize".  However, it will get ill if it does.  The Church has been in existence for a long time.  Can you imagine what would be left of it, if it changed and morphed to suit each consecutive generation?

The fact that Orthodoxy changes little (only when necessary) is what draws people to it.

Why fix it, if it isn't broken?

May the Lord have mercy on everyone involved, and preserve Orthodoxy and the faithful!  This is all just a sad mark on the Church.  The devil does not sleep.


The Roman Catholic Church made radical changes in order to "modernize" and become supposedly more accessible to "modern" man.  The result: Protestantized and secularized liturgies, a near complete rejection of Gregorian chant in favor of English ditties, an experience of spiritual insipidness and doctrinal confusion.  I don't want something similar to be an issue in the Orthodox Church.   

I don't get this need to "fit in" by not wearing a cassock in public, etc.  Even many Eastern Catholic priests in this country wear cassocks in public no problemo.  ALSO, many Latin Catholic seminarians and priests wear black cassocks in public, again without problem.   

In my experience, the cassock communicates a message of the priesthood that is lost if the priest were regularly to walk around with a button-down shirt and jeans.  He still would be a priest, yes, but it would feel that he is ashamed of being the same man outside the church as he is within it.     




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« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2010, 11:45:57 PM »

Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple.
The catechumen prayers have been cut out for centuries among the Greeks.

Pews I'm not sure about, except that I have seen them in the Old World.  In Egypt we have benches, which are not much different, and have been around for a while.

Western clerical street atire is Westernization, something to be expected, being in the West.

And as the Jews say "Just because a goat has a beard doesn't make him a rabbi."

My preference for Orthodox priests, at least Eastern Rite, is for cassocks. But not being a priest, it doesn't involve me personally, nor do I take a collar as anything more sinister.

I've heard that pews became popular in the Old World when Protestantism came to town (need to sit down for those long sermons).  
Ever notice how pews never fit quite right in traditional basilica-style Catholic churches--how some seats are right behind pillars?

Something I'd point out for all is that the cassock is not specifically Eastern; it has a history of being the "street attire" in the West as well, even if it's use is not as ubiquitous as it is in the East.  As I understand the matter, the collar originally had the practical purpose of protecting the more expensive cassock and vestments from sweat, chafing and other potential dangers.  It's not the hangman's noose or anything sinister. Smiley

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« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2011, 09:48:55 PM »

I believe this has a lot to do with a very misguided view on authority and obedience.

Especially since the 'directive' for Priests not to wear cassocks in public is what can be deemed outside of the Traditional measures of the Church. Personally, I don't have a problem Priests blending in and case can be made that it is more pastorally sound that they do. However, I highly doubt that the cassock was the real reason why His Eminence 'fired' Father David.
I agree. This is unusual. Metropokitan Phillip should not be doing this. This is not his business, but that of the local bishop.
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« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2011, 12:33:52 AM »


Something I'd point out for all is that the cassock is not specifically Eastern; it has a history of being the "street attire" in the West as well, even if it's use is not as ubiquitous as it is in the East.  As I understand the matter, the collar originally had the practical purpose of protecting the more expensive cassock and vestments from sweat, chafing and other potential dangers.  It's not the hangman's noose or anything sinister.

Christ is Risen!

It is not traditional. In the West, sweat damaging the vestments was one of the purposes of the amice, by the way.
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« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2011, 10:15:05 AM »


I am from Michigan and have been witness to some of the odd behavior of the Antiochian clergy who penned the first letter that put this whole thing in motion.

From what I gathered, it simply seems to me that the Antiochian clergy wish to "modernize" Orthodoxy.  I actually sat in a class for weeks that was taught by one of the priests.  Countless times "Slavic" Orthodoxy was ridiculed and called fanatical.  

At first the references seemed petty, but, after weeks of it, I actually found myself having to defend what I thought (and still do) as proper Orthodox practices.  

It isn't even just that priests should wear cassocks, or that they should have no beards.  All of this is between the hierarchs and clergy.

However, when he began disparaging the Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, etc) for their fanaticism, it was a bit much.  We pray for catechumens.  We actually yell out "the doors, the doors!", we even CLOSE the Royal Gates - how rude is that of us, and it seemed the worst thing was that we stand in church.  I was told that if I come to his church and wish to stand, I need to park myself in the back so that I do not ruin the view for those who are sitting.  We were called "Super Orthodox!" which I am certain was meant to offend, but, didn't...as he was of the opinion we stuck too closely to rules, traditions, etc.  We need to change with the times.  We need to be more flexible.

I personally, love the Orthodox Church just the way it is.  It will not die if it does not "modernize".  However, it will get ill if it does.  The Church has been in existence for a long time.  Can you imagine what would be left of it, if it changed and morphed to suit each consecutive generation?

The fact that Orthodoxy changes little (only when necessary) is what draws people to it.

Why fix it, if it isn't broken?

May the Lord have mercy on everyone involved, and preserve Orthodoxy and the faithful!  This is all just a sad mark on the Church.  The devil does not sleep.


The Roman Catholic Church made radical changes in order to "modernize" and become supposedly more accessible to "modern" man.  The result: Protestantized and secularized liturgies, a near complete rejection of Gregorian chant in favor of English ditties, an experience of spiritual insipidness and doctrinal confusion.  I don't want something similar to be an issue in the Orthodox Church.   

I don't get this need to "fit in" by not wearing a cassock in public, etc.  Even many Eastern Catholic priests in this country wear cassocks in public no problemo.  ALSO, many Latin Catholic seminarians and priests wear black cassocks in public, again without problem.   

In my experience, the cassock communicates a message of the priesthood that is lost if the priest were regularly to walk around with a button-down shirt and jeans.  He still would be a priest, yes, but it would feel that he is ashamed of being the same man outside the church as he is within it.     


There is plenty to suggest that wearing western clerical suits, not having a beard makes Antiochian Orthodox priests indistinguishable from many Roman and Anglican clergy who wear these. 

From pews to organs to western clericals and shortened services the evidence suggests that this is a form of modernism not at this stage in doctrine but in practices.  if you cannot tell an Antiochian Orthodox priest by his attire apart from heterodox "priests" all you are doing is devaluing the sacred priesthood and missing the opportunity to witness the Orthodox Christian faith. 

Learn from the mistakes of the Roman and Anglican Christians.  All they did with their contemporary English and appalling modern songs - "Kumbaya" ad nauseum is make what were sacred spaces essentially devalued and de-sacralised.
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« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2011, 10:19:01 AM »


Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple.
The catechumen prayers have been cut out for centuries among the Greeks.

Pews I'm not sure about, except that I have seen them in the Old World.  In Egypt we have benches, which are not much different, and have been around for a while.

My preference for Orthodox priests, at least Eastern Rite, is for cassocks. But not being a priest, it doesn't involve me personally, nor do I take a collar as anything more sinister.

Our local Greek Orthodox Archdiocese parish of the Holy Trinity is worshipping in an 1842 Anglican church that the Anglicans discarded for $50K.  It is in the process of getting an iconostasis to fir with a heritage building that has required keeping the Anglican high altar, communion rails, stained glass etc.  None the less, the priest wears a cassock in and out of church all the time, and in the liturgy the catechumen prayers are always used. His parish had almost daily services during Great Lent - doing a great service to the Greek and non-Greek Orthodox faithful.



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« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2011, 11:26:27 AM »

From pews to organs to western clericals and shortened services the evidence suggests that this is a form of modernism not at this stage in doctrine but in practices.  if you cannot tell an Antiochian Orthodox priest by his attire apart from heterodox "priests" all you are doing is devaluing the sacred priesthood and missing the opportunity to witness the Orthodox Christian faith. 

Learn from the mistakes of the Roman and Anglican Christians.  All they did with their contemporary English and appalling modern songs - "Kumbaya" ad nauseum is make what were sacred spaces essentially devalued and de-sacralised.

Not at this stage in doctrine?  Isn't this the same church that recognizes the non-Chalcedonians in Syria? Isn't this the same church that we've seen documented examples of virtually every form of ecumenism in their diaspora? One where even communing muslims is occasionally permissible?  The one that introduced the Roman Catholic "sign of peace" in their liturgy?

The problem with the Roman and Anglican "churches" is that they have warped what the sense of the Church is in the West, not 50 years ago, but 1000 years ago, some of it obvious liturgically within a few decades of the schism.

There is nothing to learn about Orthodoxy from a modern Anglican or Roman. You say learn from their "mistakes"; I say they weren't right to begin with, neither in my lifetime nor anyone else's on this list.
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« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2011, 11:31:25 AM »

Our local Greek Orthodox Archdiocese parish of the Holy Trinity is worshipping in an 1842 Anglican church that the Anglicans discarded for $50K.  It is in the process of getting an iconostasis to fir with a heritage building that has required keeping the Anglican high altar, communion rails, stained glass etc.  None the less, the priest wears a cassock in and out of church all the time, and in the liturgy the catechumen prayers are always used. His parish had almost daily services during Great Lent - doing a great service to the Greek and non-Greek Orthodox faithful.



Tags edited -MK.

How about the full psalms? (We could go through a list). Although my question is, if this isn't the norm, if the anathemalendar is still followed, isn't this argument just a sham argument to begin with? And what does "keeping the high altar" mean? Communion rail? This just sounds like a big vagante recipe for an ecumenistic mess.
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« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2011, 01:06:53 PM »

I believe this has a lot to do with a very misguided view on authority and obedience.

Especially since the 'directive' for Priests not to wear cassocks in public is what can be deemed outside of the Traditional measures of the Church. Personally, I don't have a problem Priests blending in and case can be made that it is more pastorally sound that they do. However, I highly doubt that the cassock was the real reason why His Eminence 'fired' Father David.
I agree. This is unusual. Metropokitan Phillip should not be doing this. This is not his business, but that of the local bishop.

Metropolitan Philip *is* the local bishop. He has made that much abundantly clear. I don't agree with it but it is what it is.
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« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2011, 01:14:11 PM »

Our local Greek Orthodox Archdiocese parish of the Holy Trinity is worshipping in an 1842 Anglican church that the Anglicans discarded for $50K.  It is in the process of getting an iconostasis to fir with a heritage building that has required keeping the Anglican high altar, communion rails, stained glass etc.  None the less, the priest wears a cassock in and out of church all the time, and in the liturgy the catechumen prayers are always used. His parish had almost daily services during Great Lent - doing a great service to the Greek and non-Greek Orthodox faithful.



Tags edited -MK.

How about the full psalms? (We could go through a list). Although my question is, if this isn't the norm, if the anathemalendar is still followed, isn't this argument just a sham argument to begin with? And what does "keeping the high altar" mean? Communion rail? This just sounds like a big vagante recipe for an ecumenistic mess.

The full psalms of the Antiphons? Those were cut out in the Greek tradition long ago, in the early 19th century I believe. It's not some Vatican II-motivated modernist move, and it has nothing to do with the calendar.

As it was noted, they have to keep the building intact because it's historical. Take it up with the city council if you don't like that, or give the parish money to build a proper temple. We only rarely get everything we want in a church building.
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« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2011, 01:19:40 PM »

I never received instructions when to wear my cassock or when not to wear my cassock.  I pretty much understand that my bishop has more pressing issues to deal with than to tell his clergy when and where to wear clothing.  Not being cheeky just truthful. 
I also don't agree with showing up to church and putting on a cassock in front of everyone and taking it off in front of everyone before I leave the church so I wear my cassock to and from church.  One doesn't cease to be in the priestly orders when he leaves the church premises. You will not turn into stone for wearing a cassock off church property.
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« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2011, 01:26:29 PM »

I have never ever seen my Russian rector not in a cassock even when I have stayed with him - and the local Greek priest used to wear Latin clothes but now only wears a cassock and the heterodox and unchurched instantly acknowledge and in the main respect them.

In Britain, I've hardly ever seen Russian priests wearing cassocks outside the church - jeans is the norm. Greek priests here wouldn't be caught dead without a cassock, something the Russians find very strange.
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« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2011, 01:27:34 PM »

The full psalms of the Antiphons? Those were cut out in the Greek tradition long ago, in the early 19th century I believe. It's not some Vatican II-motivated modernist move, and it has nothing to do with the calendar.

As it was noted, they have to keep the building intact because it's historical. Take it up with the city council if you don't like that, or give the parish money to build a proper temple. We only rarely get everything we want in a church building.

As I am not in the Greek Church I will leave the Antiphon alone, since you admit the calendar, but still permit it.

Since Subdeacon David is from Hobart, I am sure that he's probably aware of what I am referring to in terms of ecumenism; after all, that's where Fr Michael (Wood) does some of his business, developing the "Anglo-Catholic" rite of ROCOR. I'm just surprised the Eastern rite churches do the same there.

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« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2011, 04:16:53 PM »

From pews to organs to western clericals and shortened services the evidence suggests that this is a form of modernism not at this stage in doctrine but in practices.  if you cannot tell an Antiochian Orthodox priest by his attire apart from heterodox "priests" all you are doing is devaluing the sacred priesthood and missing the opportunity to witness the Orthodox Christian faith. 

Learn from the mistakes of the Roman and Anglican Christians.  All they did with their contemporary English and appalling modern songs - "Kumbaya" ad nauseum is make what were sacred spaces essentially devalued and de-sacralised.

Not at this stage in doctrine?  Isn't this the same church that recognizes the non-Chalcedonians in Syria? Isn't this the same church that we've seen documented examples of virtually every form of ecumenism in their diaspora? One where even communing muslims is occasionally permissible?  The one that introduced the Roman Catholic "sign of peace" in their liturgy?

The problem with the Roman and Anglican "churches" is that they have warped what the sense of the Church is in the West, not 50 years ago, but 1000 years ago, some of it obvious liturgically within a few decades of the schism.

There is nothing to learn about Orthodoxy from a modern Anglican or Roman. You say learn from their "mistakes"; I say they weren't right to begin with, neither in my lifetime nor anyone else's on this list.

Fr. Deacon Joseph, I have never seen the Roman sign of peace in an Orthodox Church, and I also don't agree with recognising non-Chalcedonians, communing Muslims (who on earth did this?) or participation in the ecumenical movement.  I also agree that the Roman and Anglican Churches lost grace and their place in the Church at the Great Schism.  God alone however knows whether there is holiness found in anyone outside of the Orthodox Church.  I once knew a now reposed Anglican Benedictine monk who loved God and who had a real air of holiness, that seemed quite real to me.
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« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2011, 04:20:25 PM »

Our local Greek Orthodox Archdiocese parish of the Holy Trinity is worshipping in an 1842 Anglican church that the Anglicans discarded for $50K.  It is in the process of getting an iconostasis to fir with a heritage building that has required keeping the Anglican high altar, communion rails, stained glass etc.  None the less, the priest wears a cassock in and out of church all the time, and in the liturgy the catechumen prayers are always used. His parish had almost daily services during Great Lent - doing a great service to the Greek and non-Greek Orthodox faithful.



Tags edited -MK.

How about the full psalms? (We could go through a list). Although my question is, if this isn't the norm, if the anathemalendar is still followed, isn't this argument just a sham argument to begin with? And what does "keeping the high altar" mean? Communion rail? This just sounds like a big vagante recipe for an ecumenistic mess.

The full psalms of the Antiphons? Those were cut out in the Greek tradition long ago, in the early 19th century I believe. It's not some Vatican II-motivated modernist move, and it has nothing to do with the calendar.

As it was noted, they have to keep the building intact because it's historical. Take it up with the city council if you don't like that, or give the parish money to build a proper temple. We only rarely get everything we want in a church building.
I am not disagreeing Bogdan.  I think it wonderful that a truly beautiful church is now an  Orthodox temple, and the physical transformation is happening.  There is no confusing the retention of historical Anglican architecture with some "vagante recipe" at all, because that is not the case.
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« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2011, 04:21:45 PM »

I have never ever seen my Russian rector not in a cassock even when I have stayed with him - and the local Greek priest used to wear Latin clothes but now only wears a cassock and the heterodox and unchurched instantly acknowledge and in the main respect them.

In Britain, I've hardly ever seen Russian priests wearing cassocks outside the church - jeans is the norm. Greek priests here wouldn't be caught dead without a cassock, something the Russians find very strange.

I am curious.  Both the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR have many convert priests, deacons, subdeacons and readers in the UK.  Is this a convert issue or a Russian one?
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