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Author Topic: Antiochian Met. Phillip fires priest for wearing cassock  (Read 17143 times) Average Rating: 5
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« on: November 04, 2010, 09:15:27 AM »

In more Met Philip has lost it news:

On the day the Archdiocesan website officially published the Metropolitan Philip's October 22nd "Implementation" Order, the Metropolitan dismissed Fr. David Moretti of Terre Haute IN from his parish, and the Archdiocese, ostensibly for disobedience, that is, wearing a traditional cassock rather than a clergy suit while in public. The letter announcing the Metropolitan's decision was short and direct.

Read more at http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2010/11/antiochian-met-phillip-fires-priest-for.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/NFTU+(Notes+From+the+Underground+Orthodox+News)
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2010, 09:23:01 AM »

Long live King Phillip!
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2010, 09:58:19 AM »

 Shocked

Sad to hear.
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2010, 10:06:37 AM »

this makes no sence...I like it better when my priest is out in his cassock and pectoral cross, then in his westernized "priest suit".
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2010, 10:33:18 AM »

Fr David Moretti served as a seminarian in our parish and was much liked & respected. Why such drastic action even if the priest was out of bounds on what would seem to be at most a minor disciplinary infraction?
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2010, 10:38:42 AM »

So how can Abp. Phillip be deposed? Is it possible? Does the Abp. of Antioch have any say in the matter? Does he care?
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2010, 10:41:42 AM »

The Patriarch sanctioned Metr. Philip's authority over the bishops and he is now sole bishop and cannot be disputed.
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2010, 10:43:47 AM »

The Patriarch sanctioned Metr. Philip's authority over the bishops and he is now sole bishop and cannot be disputed.

So we are stuck with him until he voluntarily resigns or dies in office?
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2010, 10:45:53 AM »

Yikes!  If we are going to have a Pope, let's have just one.  A bunch of "Popelettes" seems to be the worst of all worlds.
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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010, 10:48:50 AM »

Can a parish leave the AOCA and join the OCA for example? Can a bishop leave the AOCA for the OCA and take his diocese with him?
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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 10:49:13 AM »

The Patriarch sanctioned Metr. Philip's authority over the bishops and he is now sole bishop and cannot be disputed.

So we are stuck with him until he voluntarily resigns or dies in office?
I think this is the case.
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2010, 10:51:42 AM »

Yikes!  If we are going to have a Pope, let's have just one.  A bunch of "Popelettes" seems to be the worst of all worlds.

But isn't that how the Orthodox Church has functioned all along, with each patriarch having ultimate authority over each jurisdiction, i.e. 'popelettes'? How is this case any different?
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2010, 10:57:56 AM »

Yikes!  If we are going to have a Pope, let's have just one.  A bunch of "Popelettes" seems to be the worst of all worlds.

But isn't that how the Orthodox Church has functioned all along, with each patriarch having ultimate authority over each jurisdiction, i.e. 'popelettes'? How is this case any different?
From what I understand from this ongoing controversy re bishops is that to elevate clergy to the office and then demote them to "auxiliaries' should violate canon laws. Nontheless, the patriarch has sanctioned the Metropolitan's authority to do this so it seems to get fuzzy here.
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2010, 11:05:47 AM »

Will Fr. Moretti be able to serve in a different jurisdiction, should he wish to do so?  Huh
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2010, 11:07:45 AM »

The Patriarch sanctioned Metr. Philip's authority over the bishops and he is now sole bishop and cannot be disputed.

So he thinks.

At present I'm advising to keep the powder dry, until Met. Philip gets the signatures he demands on his diktat.  Should that happen, parish councils should start voting, under the Constition/Charter of the Sole Ruled Archdiocese, to call a session of the Archdiocese on the issue.

In the meantime, the original legal recommendations of the trustees have not been addressed.  The lawyers who rubbered stamped Met.Philip's dictated legal memo should be hauled before the bar.

I'm also waiting to see what the Episcopal Assembly has to say about the new situation of its Secretary.
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« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2010, 11:09:01 AM »

In more Met Philip has lost it news:

On the day the Archdiocesan website officially published the Metropolitan Philip's October 22nd "Implementation" Order, the Metropolitan dismissed Fr. David Moretti of Terre Haute IN from his parish, and the Archdiocese, ostensibly for disobedience, that is, wearing a traditional cassock rather than a clergy suit while in public. The letter announcing the Metropolitan's decision was short and direct.

Read more at http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2010/11/antiochian-met-phillip-fires-priest-for.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/NFTU+(Notes+From+the+Underground+Orthodox+News)


I think you are unintentionally being misleading here.  If you read the letter I think the second part about
making public comments about Metropolitan Phillip is the real reason.


Quote
"To the Priest David Moretti:
It is with sadness of heart that I write to you today. Because of your disobedience in following the directives I have set forth for liturgical dress and practice as well as public comments you have made disparaging me personally, I am releasing you from your duties as pastor of St. George Church and as a priest of the Antiochian Archdiocese effective December 1, 2010. Please plan to be out of the parish by that date.
In Christ,
+Metropolitan PHILIP"
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« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2010, 11:09:57 AM »

Will Fr. Moretti be able to serve in a different jurisdiction, should he wish to do so?  Huh

This would be the important issue.
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« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2010, 11:13:53 AM »

The Patriarch sanctioned Metr. Philip's authority over the bishops and he is now sole bishop and cannot be disputed.
Canon law is confusing.

- the sixth canon of the First Ecumenical Council:
 'If anyone is consecrated bishop without the consent of his metropolitan, the Great
Council declares him not to be a bishop.'

- the twenty-eighth canon of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, the patriarch cannot even place a
bishop in his diocese without the approval of the local metropolitan
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« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2010, 11:14:53 AM »

Yikes!  If we are going to have a Pope, let's have just one.  A bunch of "Popelettes" seems to be the worst of all worlds.

But isn't that how the Orthodox Church has functioned all along, with each patriarch having ultimate authority over each jurisdiction, i.e. 'popelettes'? How is this case any different?
From what I understand from this ongoing controversy re bishops is that to elevate clergy to the office and then demote them to "auxiliaries' should violate canon laws. Nontheless, the patriarch has sanctioned the Metropolitan's authority to do this so it seems to get fuzzy here.

I do not know that the Patriarchate has ammended its version of the charter and constition, which it was obligated to do, yet.
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« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2010, 11:15:09 AM »

Yikes!  If we are going to have a Pope, let's have just one.  A bunch of "Popelettes" seems to be the worst of all worlds.

I think His Holiness the Pope of Rome would be a tad envious of His Eminence Metropolitan Philip. The Pope of Rome only has the illusion of ultimate power. If he really had ultimate power, there would be a nice inquisition against clown masses and liturgical dance, or so I would hope.
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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2010, 11:18:06 AM »

I believe this has a lot to do with a very misguided view on authority and obedience.

Especially since the 'directive' for Priests not to wear cassocks in public is what can be deemed outside of the Traditional measures of the Church. Personally, I don't have a problem Priests blending in and case can be made that it is more pastorally sound that they do. However, I highly doubt that the cassock was the real reason why His Eminence 'fired' Father David.
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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2010, 11:18:28 AM »

The Patriarch sanctioned Metr. Philip's authority over the bishops and he is now sole bishop and cannot be disputed.

So he thinks.

At present I'm advising to keep the powder dry, until Met. Philip gets the signatures he demands on his diktat.  Should that happen, parish councils should start voting, under the Constition/Charter of the Sole Ruled Archdiocese, to call a session of the Archdiocese on the issue.

In the meantime, the original legal recommendations of the trustees have not been addressed.  The lawyers who rubbered stamped Met.Philip's dictated legal memo should be hauled before the bar.

I'm also waiting to see what the Episcopal Assembly has to say about the new situation of its Secretary.
From what I understand were not opponents to the original 2009 action rather isolated by the overall sentiment of a 2009 parish life conference? I just mean that they had a much smaller cheering section in the crowd, not that anything drastic happened. I guess there is going to be fragmentation although I guess we can pray that the Metr will reverse his decision re Fr David Moretti.
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« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2010, 11:21:48 AM »

I think some could make a case that, at the moment, the AOCA is outside Orthodoxy. Met. Phillip+ doesn't have to reverse anything, like in the military, Bishop Mark, Father David, and the laity are not obliged to be obidient to these directives since one Bishop cannot speak for all. These directive are immoral. All of these decisions should be undertaken through a Sinod under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Bishop Mark and Father David shouldn't have left and the faithful shouldn't be silent. We should be standing up for the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2010, 11:32:02 AM »

I think some could make a case that, at the moment, the AOCA is outside Orthodoxy. Met. Phillip+ doesn't have to reverse anything, like in the military, Bishop Mark, Father David, and the laity are not obliged to be obidient to these directives since one Bishop cannot speak for all. These directive are immoral. All of these decisions should be undertaken through a Sinod under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Bishop Mark and Father David shouldn't have left and the faithful shouldn't be silent. We should be standing up for the Orthodox Church.

I agree. They should stand their ground and require that Mp. Philip come and physically remove them from their diocese.
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« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2010, 11:35:20 AM »

I think some could make a case that, at the moment, the AOCA is outside Orthodoxy. Met. Phillip+ doesn't have to reverse anything, like in the military, Bishop Mark, Father David, and the laity are not obliged to be obidient to these directives since one Bishop cannot speak for all. These directive are immoral. All of these decisions should be undertaken through a Sinod under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Bishop Mark and Father David shouldn't have left and the faithful shouldn't be silent. We should be standing up for the Orthodox Church.
I believe that strident opinions and criticism rendered about what many of us feel is bad governance but to say that the AOCA is outside Orthodoxy and undermine the Metr's authority are not for us to consider.
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« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2010, 11:37:59 AM »

I think some could make a case that, at the moment, the AOCA is outside Orthodoxy. Met. Phillip+ doesn't have to reverse anything, like in the military, Bishop Mark, Father David, and the laity are not obliged to be obidient to these directives since one Bishop cannot speak for all. These directive are immoral. All of these decisions should be undertaken through a Sinod under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Bishop Mark and Father David shouldn't have left and the faithful shouldn't be silent. We should be standing up for the Orthodox Church.

I agree. They should stand their ground and require that Mp. Philip come and physically remove them from their diocese.

I don't think Met. Philip would come, but I bet that Walid Khalife character wouldn't mind using his muscles.
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2010, 11:39:58 AM »

I think some could make a case that, at the moment, the AOCA is outside Orthodoxy. Met. Phillip+ doesn't have to reverse anything, like in the military, Bishop Mark, Father David, and the laity are not obliged to be obidient to these directives since one Bishop cannot speak for all. These directive are immoral. All of these decisions should be undertaken through a Sinod under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  

Bishop Mark and Father David shouldn't have left and the faithful shouldn't be silent. We should be standing up for the Orthodox Church.
I believe that strident opinions and criticism rendered about what many of us feel is bad governance but to say that the AOCA is outside Orthodoxy and undermine the Metr's authority are not for us to consider.

UH what? Of course it is for us to consider. Are we Baptized? Do we commune? Are we the Royal Priesthood? Have we picked up a book on the history of the Church? Anything undertaken by the Bishop and the Sinod is filtered through the Body and accepted. But since this wasn't even undertaken through a Sinod ... you get the picture. The 'authority' that we've gotten used to is one that we read from the Fathers and it is the obedience a monastic has to his/her spiritual father. We're not all monastics. It doesn't mean that we do what we want, but it also doesn't mean that we shut off our brains. This is cleary a bad move and it's not Orthodox.
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« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2010, 11:41:11 AM »

I think some could make a case that, at the moment, the AOCA is outside Orthodoxy. Met. Phillip+ doesn't have to reverse anything, like in the military, Bishop Mark, Father David, and the laity are not obliged to be obidient to these directives since one Bishop cannot speak for all. These directive are immoral. All of these decisions should be undertaken through a Sinod under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  

Bishop Mark and Father David shouldn't have left and the faithful shouldn't be silent. We should be standing up for the Orthodox Church.

I agree. They should stand their ground and require that Mp. Philip come and physically remove them from their diocese.

I don't think Met. Philip would come, but I bet that Walid Khalife character wouldn't mind using his muscles.



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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2010, 11:47:02 AM »

Why would an Orthodox priest want to be mistaken for a Roman Catholic priest? 
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« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2010, 11:50:02 AM »

I don't even own one of those collar/clerical shirt combo deals.  And I live in North Carolina. Trust me, it's not that difficult to walk around wearing a cassock.
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« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2010, 11:54:20 AM »

I don't even own one of those collar/clerical shirt combo deals.  And I live in North Carolina. Trust me, it's not that difficult to walk around wearing a cassock.

I honestly never understood the modern obsession that some priests have with "fitting in".  I can certainly understand the directives at the turn of the 20th century.  After all, Americanization was what one did upon immigration.  But in today's climate of multi-culturalism, I don't get why some bishops and priests feel the need to denigrate the wearing of the cassock.

Then again, I'm a guy who often wears a Scottish kilt on a casual basis, so what do I know? Wink
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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2010, 12:02:42 PM »

I believe this has a lot to do with a very misguided view on authority and obedience.

Especially since the 'directive' for Priests not to wear cassocks in public is what can be deemed outside of the Traditional measures of the Church. Personally, I don't have a problem Priests blending in and case can be made that it is more pastorally sound that they do. However, I highly doubt that the cassock was the real reason why His Eminence 'fired' Father David.
I've never heard of this.  my priest says he alwayse goes out in his cassock, except for taking his wife out oran outing with the kids.
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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2010, 12:06:42 PM »

I believe this has a lot to do with a very misguided view on authority and obedience.

Especially since the 'directive' for Priests not to wear cassocks in public is what can be deemed outside of the Traditional measures of the Church. Personally, I don't have a problem Priests blending in and case can be made that it is more pastorally sound that they do. However, I highly doubt that the cassock was the real reason why His Eminence 'fired' Father David.
I've never heard of this.  my priest says he alwayse goes out in his cassock, except for taking his wife out oran outing with the kids.
It's more an Antiochian Orthodox Church directive to blend in. I think in some cases the Orthodox Priests and the Bishops themselves end up looking more Roman Catholic than anything else. I've seen pictures of His Eminence where he looks very much like a RC Bishop. Like I said, I don't have a problem with it personally, but I don't believe it was ever something that was so stringent up until now. Or it could be just a cover up for deeper issues. In any case, why get hung up on the externals? I also don't understand the American convert Priests and Bishops who look exactly like Russian Priests in the 19th Century and even run their parishes like this. This also isn't a good thing.
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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2010, 12:08:59 PM »

I don't even own one of those collar/clerical shirt combo deals.  And I live in North Carolina. Trust me, it's not that difficult to walk around wearing a cassock.

I honestly never understood the modern obsession that some priests have with "fitting in".  I can certainly understand the directives at the turn of the 20th century.  After all, Americanization was what one did upon immigration.  But in today's climate of multi-culturalism, I don't get why some bishops and priests feel the need to denigrate the wearing of the cassock.

well, I have a reason.  my priest was walking home from the store and walked past this center for troubled youth.  they were sitting out there, and saw him and began to throw rocks at uim as he ran away,until a policeman shewed them away. he says that this wouldn't happen if he wasn't so out-sticking in his cassock.  he also got a car, so that helped  Wink

he says that homeless people will randomly come up to him and kiss his hand.  I imagine this is a bit wierd, since they do't even ask for a blessing.
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2010, 12:12:08 PM »

I don't even own one of those collar/clerical shirt combo deals.  And I live in North Carolina. Trust me, it's not that difficult to walk around wearing a cassock.

I honestly never understood the modern obsession that some priests have with "fitting in".  I can certainly understand the directives at the turn of the 20th century.  After all, Americanization was what one did upon immigration.  But in today's climate of multi-culturalism, I don't get why some bishops and priests feel the need to denigrate the wearing of the cassock.

well, I have a reason.  my priest was walking home from the store and walked past this center for troubled youth.  they were sitting out there, and saw him and began to throw rocks at uim as he ran away,until a policeman shewed them away. he says that this wouldn't happen if he wasn't so out-sticking in his cassock.  he also got a car, so that helped  Wink

I'm sure if he was wearing a Roman collar, they would have done the same Smiley
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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2010, 12:12:34 PM »

In the middle of this discussion, please don't forget that clothes don't make the man. We are after all urged to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. By that I simply mean that you can not, and should not, judge a priest solely by his attire as long as it is conservative and in good taste.
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« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2010, 12:13:45 PM »

In the middle of this discussion, please don't forget that clothes don't make the man. We are after all urged to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. By that I simply mean that you can not, and should not, judge a priest solely by his attire as long as it is conservative and in good taste.

well said Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2010, 01:18:24 PM »

In this mess, we should be clear about the following;

- Metropolitan Philip's stated reasons for firing Father David Moretti and dumping his wife and children onto the street are simply not true. In other words, the Metropolitan's letter contains untruths but I do not know if +Philip is lying (that is that he knows what he put signature to are untruths).  Father Moretti was indeed criticized for being out out of uniform but he immediately repented and restarted to wear the Roman Catholic/Anglican garb that the Metropolitan favors. I believe this happened while Bishop Mark was still the ruling bishop. Father Moretti also claims that he did not publicly disparage the Metropolitan. I believe him and I do not believe the Metropolitan who has been known to lie to his own Patriarch.

- Metropolitan Philip appears to be moving against those priests in the Toledo Diocese who had sided with Bishop Mark in trying to become better Orthodox (more prayer and services/less gambling and belly dancing). These good priests stood out as a silent but public rebuke to those priests who did not want to be led by a convert bishop (that is a non-Arab), who did want to follow common Orthodox praxis, and who did not want their crooked financial practices exposed. In any sane world, you would think that these bad shepherds, wolves in sheep's clothing, would be put out of business by the ecclesiastic or secular authorities. Not so in the Philip's Wonderland; these bad apples are +Philip's buddies, sychophants and financiers. So, +Philip is punishing Father Moretti, the priest being transferred from Sylvania, and may be even others, to placate those bad apples.

- In all of this rhubarb, we must not lose sight of the fact that +Philip is the arch-pastor of the two priests, their families and the affected parishes. He has failed to live up to the standards of a loving and just arch-pastor. He has revealed himself to be a vindictive, little man, a despot that would make a Medieval Pope proud. Actually, I must retract that last part; it is an insult to compare the Metropolitan to a Roman Pope, as I am afraid I have done too many times already. +Philip makes any Pope a virtuous and humble man in comparison.
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« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2010, 01:35:27 PM »

I don't even own one of those collar/clerical shirt combo deals.  And I live in North Carolina. Trust me, it's not that difficult to walk around wearing a cassock.

When I was a Franciscan, we could not wear our habits outside of the friary, so I was forced to have a clerical suit.  I hated wearing that dog collar.  and I will never wear another as long as I live.  Now I know what my poor dogs go through, so they don't wear dog collars either...they wear harnesses, except in the winter when they are wearing their coats (my dogs have very thin fur and the older one shakes terribly when it falls below 70 degrees.  Besides if I wanted to look like a Protestant or a Roman Catholic clergyman, then I would have joined either of their churches.
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« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2010, 01:44:36 PM »


I am from Michigan and have been witness to some of the odd behavior of the Antiochian clergy who penned the first letter that put this whole thing in motion.

From what I gathered, it simply seems to me that the Antiochian clergy wish to "modernize" Orthodoxy.  I actually sat in a class for weeks that was taught by one of the priests.  Countless times "Slavic" Orthodoxy was ridiculed and called fanatical. 

At first the references seemed petty, but, after weeks of it, I actually found myself having to defend what I thought (and still do) as proper Orthodox practices. 

It isn't even just that priests should wear cassocks, or that they should have no beards.  All of this is between the hierarchs and clergy.

However, when he began disparaging the Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, etc) for their fanaticism, it was a bit much.  We pray for catechumens.  We actually yell out "the doors, the doors!", we even CLOSE the Royal Gates - how rude is that of us, and it seemed the worst thing was that we stand in church.  I was told that if I come to his church and wish to stand, I need to park myself in the back so that I do not ruin the view for those who are sitting.  We were called "Super Orthodox!" which I am certain was meant to offend, but, didn't...as he was of the opinion we stuck too closely to rules, traditions, etc.  We need to change with the times.  We need to be more flexible.

I personally, love the Orthodox Church just the way it is.  It will not die if it does not "modernize".  However, it will get ill if it does.  The Church has been in existence for a long time.  Can you imagine what would be left of it, if it changed and morphed to suit each consecutive generation?

The fact that Orthodoxy changes little (only when necessary) is what draws people to it.

Why fix it, if it isn't broken?

May the Lord have mercy on everyone involved, and preserve Orthodoxy and the faithful!  This is all just a sad mark on the Church.  The devil does not sleep.


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« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2010, 01:52:23 PM »


I am from Michigan and have been witness to some of the odd behavior of the Antiochian clergy who penned the first letter that put this whole thing in motion.

From what I gathered, it simply seems to me that the Antiochian clergy wish to "modernize" Orthodoxy.  I actually sat in a class for weeks that was taught by one of the priests.  Countless times "Slavic" Orthodoxy was ridiculed and called fanatical. 

At first the references seemed petty, but, after weeks of it, I actually found myself having to defend what I thought (and still do) as proper Orthodox practices. 

It isn't even just that priests should wear cassocks, or that they should have no beards.  All of this is between the hierarchs and clergy.

However, when he began disparaging the Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, etc) for their fanaticism, it was a bit much.  We pray for catechumens.  We actually yell out "the doors, the doors!", we even CLOSE the Royal Gates - how rude is that of us, and it seemed the worst thing was that we stand in church.  I was told that if I come to his church and wish to stand, I need to park myself in the back so that I do not ruin the view for those who are sitting.  We were called "Super Orthodox!" which I am certain was meant to offend, but, didn't...as he was of the opinion we stuck too closely to rules, traditions, etc.  We need to change with the times.  We need to be more flexible.

I personally, love the Orthodox Church just the way it is.  It will not die if it does not "modernize".  However, it will get ill if it does.  The Church has been in existence for a long time.  Can you imagine what would be left of it, if it changed and morphed to suit each consecutive generation?

The fact that Orthodoxy changes little (only when necessary) is what draws people to it.

Why fix it, if it isn't broken?

May the Lord have mercy on everyone involved, and preserve Orthodoxy and the faithful!  This is all just a sad mark on the Church.  The devil does not sleep.




Just to be clear for everybody, are referring to the Detroit area clergy, the +Philip Country Club, that I had referred to as the bad apples? They are the ones who circulated that gloating letter against Bishop Mark.
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« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2010, 02:00:16 PM »

"Besides if I wanted to look like a Protestant or a Roman Catholic clergyman, then I would have joined either of their churches."

Well put Father.  Roman Catholic priests (except Eastern Catholic priests) do not dress in an Orthoodx cassock taking on Orthodox appearance. 
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« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2010, 02:10:53 PM »

I think in the midst of all the conversation it is good to keep in mind that clergy dress HAS changed throughout the centuries.  Cassocks used to be what EVERYONE wore, what WOMEN wore, and even what priests wore (according to some liturgical history). 

It has not been ONE consistent thing, every century, but rather something that distinguishes clergy from the rest of the laos (people).  This point however, shouldn't be taken to extremes, on any end. 
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« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2010, 02:13:21 PM »

This whole issue is very sad and puzzling to me.  I just hope there is some more reasonable explanation that we haven't yet heard.

Speaking as a convert, I can understand mandating adherence to tradition.  I can understand allowing a relaxation in a practice for pastoral reasons.  But mandating non-adherence to tradition?  Huh  It sends a very confusing message, IMO.
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« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2010, 02:16:52 PM »

I don't think we should get too hung up on the externals since they're usually cover for deeper problems. Besides, I don't believe most Antiochian parishes ridicule Slavic Traditions. If so, I would have been long gone, long ago. My parish actually embraces all culture.
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« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2010, 02:29:30 PM »

I have to confess that I feel that Fr David Moretti, Bishop Mark etc. are victims of a gangster coterie and felt this coterie are the whole cause of the bishop demotion issue in 2009 when participating in a thread back then. My paternal grandparents were cradle Syrian Orthodox & my grandfather was parish treasurer and a lay faction did not like the parish priest during World War 2 (in the USA) and harried him out of his parish. No moral issues were involved & there was a deep rift in the congregation & many ceased being Orthodox; my grandfather helped lead the group who wanted the priest maintained calling on then Metr. Antony Bashir but the issue was left to a lay vote and the priest & his supproters lost. I do recall finding icons packed away the priest gave my grandparents for their devotion to the church in 1943 & 1 year later they & others had left the church (although my grandmother later returned). I think there was gangsterism in both instances & will always be skeptical of hierarchs.
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« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2010, 03:01:05 PM »

In this mess, we should be clear about the following;

- Metropolitan Philip's stated reasons for firing Father David Moretti and dumping his wife and children onto the street are simply not true. In other words, the Metropolitan's letter contains untruths but I do not know if +Philip is lying (that is that he knows what he put signature to are untruths).  Father Moretti was indeed criticized for being out out of uniform but he immediately repented and restarted to wear the Roman Catholic/Anglican garb that the Metropolitan favors. I believe this happened while Bishop Mark was still the ruling bishop. Father Moretti also claims that he did not publicly disparage the Metropolitan. I believe him and I do not believe the Metropolitan who has been known to lie to his own Patriarch.

- Metropolitan Philip appears to be moving against those priests in the Toledo Diocese who had sided with Bishop Mark in trying to become better Orthodox (more prayer and services/less gambling and belly dancing). These good priests stood out as a silent but public rebuke to those priests who did not want to be led by a convert bishop (that is a non-Arab), who did want to follow common Orthodox praxis, and who did not want their crooked financial practices exposed. In any sane world, you would think that these bad shepherds, wolves in sheep's clothing, would be put out of business by the ecclesiastic or secular authorities. Not so in the Philip's Wonderland; these bad apples are +Philip's buddies, sychophants and financiers. So, +Philip is punishing Father Moretti, the priest being transferred from Sylvania, and may be even others, to placate those bad apples.

- In all of this rhubarb, we must not lose sight of the fact that +Philip is the arch-pastor of the two priests, their families and the affected parishes. He has failed to live up to the standards of a loving and just arch-pastor. He has revealed himself to be a vindictive, little man, a despot that would make a Medieval Pope proud. Actually, I must retract that last part; it is an insult to compare the Metropolitan to a Roman Pope, as I am afraid I have done too many times already. +Philip makes any Pope a virtuous and humble man in comparison.

As many times as he lied about having autocephaly or autonomy over the years, people should have learned long ago that Metropolitan Philip is a power-hungry liar and possibly a little insane.

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« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2010, 03:04:50 PM »

guys lets not go down the ad hominem path. there are arguments and truth. besides the office is still Metropolitan even if we vehemently disagree with some decisions.

If people have been hurt there are avenues for this, please seek. the Church is for healing. Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2010, 03:46:13 PM »

guys lets not go down the ad hominem path. there are arguments and truth. besides the office is still Metropolitan even if we vehemently disagree with some decisions.

If people have been hurt there are avenues for this, please seek. the Church is for healing. Smiley

I do not think that anybody is using ad hominem arguments. We all have stated our reasons and reasoning for our conclusions. I do get you point about respecting the office and backing off from name calling though. I will henceforth limit myself to "Anaxios!"
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« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2010, 03:49:55 PM »

guys lets not go down the ad hominem path. there are arguments and truth. besides the office is still Metropolitan even if we vehemently disagree with some decisions.

If people have been hurt there are avenues for this, please seek. the Church is for healing. Smiley

I do not think that anybody is using ad hominem arguments. We all have stated our reasons and reasoning for our conclusions. I do get you point about respecting the office and backing off from name calling though. I will henceforth limit myself to "Anaxios!"

Please accept my apologies. It is I who has said quite enough! Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2010, 04:00:10 PM »

Some of the tags for this thread are a little extreme.
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« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2010, 04:08:53 PM »

Some of the tags for this thread are a little extreme.
Thanks for pointing that out. I am deleting them now...
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« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2010, 05:12:49 PM »

Some of the tags for this thread are a little extreme.

Yeah, I thought so as well, though the only one I deleted was "heretic".
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« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2010, 06:03:26 PM »

Anaxios!
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« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2010, 10:10:01 PM »

I don't like it when my priest wears a suit with the collar. Why do we change to fit in with the Latins and Anglicans? I applaud the priest who wore the cassock.
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« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2010, 11:20:16 PM »

Yikes!  If we are going to have a Pope, let's have just one.  A bunch of "Popelettes" seems to be the worst of all worlds.

I think His Holiness the Pope of Rome would be a tad envious of His Eminence Metropolitan Philip. The Pope of Rome only has the illusion of ultimate power. If he really had ultimate power, there would be a nice inquisition against clown masses and liturgical dance, or so I would hope.

Maybe he likes clowns? They make him laugh. he he.
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« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2010, 11:23:12 PM »

I believe this has a lot to do with a very misguided view on authority and obedience.

Especially since the 'directive' for Priests not to wear cassocks in public is what can be deemed outside of the Traditional measures of the Church. Personally, I don't have a problem Priests blending in and case can be made that it is more pastorally sound that they do. However, I highly doubt that the cassock was the real reason why His Eminence 'fired' Father David.

Forgive me for lengthening discussion on bad church politics, but how would he know that the priest wore a cassock in public? It seems that someone would have had to "report" on the priest for the Metr. to know about it.
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« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2010, 01:32:16 AM »

Unfortunately it seems to be like that. Disgruntled parishioners phoning the ruling bishop when they don't get their own way and the poor bishop needs support from parishioners for his medical insurance. Not easy being a hierarch, priest or pious layman.
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« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2010, 11:58:08 PM »

I think "Anaxios!" says it all to Metropolitan Philip.  He seems to have simply gone around the twist.
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« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2010, 07:56:31 AM »

"When people treat us unjustly, God justifies us." ~Elder Epiphanios of Athens +1989

"...take a look at two olive trees, one with leaves and the other without. Which one of the two do you prefer? The one with leaves or the one without leaves? Once when i was at the Kalyvi of the Holy Cross, I peeled the trunk of an olive tree and wrote, 'A priest without his cassock is without his virtue too.'..." ~ Elder Paisios of Mount Athos +1994

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"I am proud of the cassock I wear and consider it more valuab;e and seemly than every other kind of garmet, even than the royal purple robes of kings. I consider myself unworthy to dress in such a modest, honorable and holy garb, which was honored by numberless monastic Saints, monk-martyrs, confessors, and Saints. I am saddened by and pity those clerics who reject the cassock and who shave their beards." ~Elder Philotheos of Paros +1980

"Priests shouldn't cut their hair. In Asia Minor, when priesys would comb their hair, they would put a white clth down and whatever strands of hair fell, they would gather, put them in a little bag, and when they died, they would bury it with them. Thus is because, when the Holy Spirit descends during ordination, the priest is sanctified; even his hair is sanctified." ~ Elder Iakovos of Evia +1967
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« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2010, 08:09:54 AM »

Why exactly does this thread have a thumbs up attached to it?
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« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2010, 11:05:44 AM »

Why exactly does this thread have a thumbs up attached to it?

That's a sarcastic thumb if i've ever seen one...
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« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2010, 11:26:24 AM »

Although this incident is outside my realm I must say I support the priest for wearing a cassock. Last week I saw a Coptic priest wearing a cassock at his son's soccer game, I had nothing but respect for him and wished that I had spoken to him, but was in transition between my granddaughters soccer games...
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« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2010, 08:44:46 PM »

Why exactly does this thread have a thumbs up attached to it?

I meant to do thumbs down, but once I noticed it was past time allowed for editing the post. :-(
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« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2010, 08:46:12 PM »

Why exactly does this thread have a thumbs up attached to it?

I meant to do thumbs down, but once I noticed it was past time allowed for editing the post. :-(

Ok, I was just confused by it, thank you for posting about it though.
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« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2010, 08:59:27 PM »

Metropolitan Phillip has certainly created an interesting position for himself: as the only "true" Bishop of the "diocese" of North America none of his "auxiliary bishops" can convene a council, but at the same time, as the Primate of an "autonomous" Church he also expects no input from the Patriarch of Antioch. He is neither answerable to a synod of other bishops equal to or even "below" him nor is he answerable to anyone "above" him. An entire autonomous Orthodox Church consisting of only one bishop is certainly an ecclesiastical oddity.

Since the elevation of new bishops requires the laying on of hands of three existing bishops where will the autonomous Antiochian Church in America turn to for the required other two bishops for future elevations? Indeed, if there is only one Antiochian "super-diocese" and hence only one Antiochian bishop in North America (all the other bishops being merely auxiliary, and thus not functioning as equal members of a synod of bishops) who will convene the synod when Metropolitan Phillip retires or departs this life?

The best possible response to all of this is to pray for Metropolitan Phillip and for all those who are being affected by any of the recent developments. Some may, and will, express their opinions. Some will call for action. That is natural and may turn out to be a good thing, but we must remember the power of prayer.
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« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2010, 09:05:15 PM »

Metropolitan Phillip has certainly created an interesting position for himself: as the only "true" Bishop of the "diocese" of North America none of his "auxiliary bishops" can convene a council, but at the same time, as the Primate of an "autonomous" Church he also expects no input from the Patriarch of Antioch. He is neither answerable to a synod of other bishops equal to or even "below" him nor is he answerable to anyone "above" him. An entire autonomous Orthodox Church consisting of only one bishop is certainly an ecclesiastical oddity.

Since the elevation of new bishops requires the laying on of hands of three existing bishops where will the autonomous Antiochian Church in America turn to for the required other two bishops for future elevations? Indeed, if there is only one Antiochian "super-diocese" and hence only one Antiochian bishop in North America (all the other bishops being merely auxiliary, and thus not functioning as equal members of a synod of bishops) who will convene the synod when Metropolitan Phillip retires or departs this life?

The best possible response to all of this is to pray for Metropolitan Phillip and for all those who are being affected by any of the recent developments. Some may, and will, express their opinions. Some will call for action. That is natural aecidnd may turn out to be a good thing, but we must remember the power of prayer.

All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!
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« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2010, 09:15:20 PM »

All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!

Nobody will.
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« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2010, 09:16:32 PM »

All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!

Nobody will.

Why not?
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« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2010, 09:24:14 PM »

An awful lot seems to be happening very rapidly - I guess time will tell what the results will end up being.
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« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2010, 09:44:37 PM »

Metropolitan Phillip has certainly created an interesting position for himself: as the only "true" Bishop of the "diocese" of North America none of his "auxiliary bishops" can convene a council, but at the same time, as the Primate of an "autonomous" Church he also expects no input from the Patriarch of Antioch. He is neither answerable to a synod of other bishops equal to or even "below" him nor is he answerable to anyone "above" him. An entire autonomous Orthodox Church consisting of only one bishop is certainly an ecclesiastical oddity.

Since the elevation of new bishops requires the laying on of hands of three existing bishops where will the autonomous Antiochian Church in America turn to for the required other two bishops for future elevations? Indeed, if there is only one Antiochian "super-diocese" and hence only one Antiochian bishop in North America (all the other bishops being merely auxiliary, and thus not functioning as equal members of a synod of bishops) who will convene the synod when Metropolitan Phillip retires or departs this life?

The best possible response to all of this is to pray for Metropolitan Phillip and for all those who are being affected by any of the recent developments. Some may, and will, express their opinions. Some will call for action. That is natural aecidnd may turn out to be a good thing, but we must remember the power of prayer.

All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!
I was just thinking that today. I really don't like these developments I'm seeing come from him and it makes me wonder if we are pushing for administrative Orthodox unity in America too fast. Meaning, what if we end up with someone like him (but at least he would be answerable to a synod)? I think the best advice that was given earlier is to pray for him. Perhaps, he will repent and/or step down.

In Christ,
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« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2010, 09:48:55 PM »

Don't worry, I doubt there's a single bishop outside of AOCA that thinks Met. Philip's model is an attractive one for Orthodox unity.
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« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2010, 09:54:53 PM »

Metropolitan Philip himself doesn't want administrative unity yet, citing worse problems in the GOA and OCA... ... ...

I'm so glad his own Bishops disagree with him on this issue.
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« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2010, 11:48:12 PM »

All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!

Nobody will.

Individual parishes, though, may start "voting" with their pocket books and lessen their "contributions" to Englewood.
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« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2010, 12:12:33 AM »

All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!

Nobody will.

Individual parishes, though, may start "voting" with their pocket books and lessen their "contributions" to Englewood.

But doesn't the parish have to have permission from the bishop to move jurisdictions?
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« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2010, 08:12:41 AM »

Don't worry, I doubt there's a single bishop outside of AOCA that thinks Met. Philip's model is an attractive one for Orthodox unity.

I think the fact that no one has yet made a reply stating their support/defense of Metropolitan Phillip's actions reveals a lot too.

The interview of Metropolitan Phillip that was recently done on Ancient Faith Radio gives some good insight into the thought processes the Metropolitan is using in regards to all of the recent changes in AOCA. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/metropolitan_philip_saliba_-_on_the_record I was very surprised by a lot of what I heard.
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« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2010, 03:28:35 PM »

Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?
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« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2010, 09:36:42 PM »

Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?

"The Archdiocese- c'est moi!"
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« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2010, 09:39:23 PM »

Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?

I am in the Midwest, and I know people in the Northwest, and none of us think the attempted translation of Bp. Mark was "for the well-being of the archdiocese."  We think it the OCA's gain.
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« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2010, 09:43:32 PM »

Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?

"The Archdiocese- c'est moi!"

Very interesting quotation.
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« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2010, 09:48:44 PM »

Metropolitan Phillip has certainly created an interesting position for himself: as the only "true" Bishop of the "diocese" of North America none of his "auxiliary bishops" can convene a council, but at the same time, as the Primate of an "autonomous" Church he also expects no input from the Patriarch of Antioch. He is neither answerable to a synod of other bishops equal to or even "below" him nor is he answerable to anyone "above" him. An entire autonomous Orthodox Church consisting of only one bishop is certainly an ecclesiastical oddity.

Since the elevation of new bishops requires the laying on of hands of three existing bishops where will the autonomous Antiochian Church in America turn to for the required other two bishops for future elevations? Indeed, if there is only one Antiochian "super-diocese" and hence only one Antiochian bishop in North America (all the other bishops being merely auxiliary, and thus not functioning as equal members of a synod of bishops) who will convene the synod when Metropolitan Phillip retires or departs this life?

The best possible response to all of this is to pray for Metropolitan Phillip and for all those who are being affected by any of the recent developments. Some may, and will, express their opinions. Some will call for action. That is natural aecidnd may turn out to be a good thing, but we must remember the power of prayer.

All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!
I was just thinking that today. I really don't like these developments I'm seeing come from him and it makes me wonder if we are pushing for administrative Orthodox unity in America too fast. Meaning, what if we end up with someone like him (but at least he would be answerable to a synod)? I think the best advice that was given earlier is to pray for him. Perhaps, he will repent and/or step down.

In Christ,
Andrew

The Patriarchates etc. have all had the Met. Philip's at the helm, so it's not a reason but an excuse not to have unity. The Patriarchs survived their Philips, we will survive ours. For one thing, a Holy Synod like the OCA could take care of a Met. Philip like it took care of Met. Herman, its autocephalous primate.

I pray for Met. Philip every day (and Bp. Mark; and Pope Theodore and Shedounah and Pat. Ignatius), as we all should.
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« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2010, 11:22:43 PM »

Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?

"The Archdiocese- c'est moi!"

My thoughts exactly.
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« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2010, 11:24:11 PM »

Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?

I am in the Midwest, and I know people in the Northwest, and none of us think the attempted translation of Bp. Mark was "for the well-being of the archdiocese."  We think it the OCA's gain.


I'm in the same boat, and I have the same opinion.
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« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2010, 09:20:28 AM »

I wonder if there are vested interests that would prefer a protracted implosion of the archdiocese as long as certain monetary concerns can perhaps be maintained. It may be better to resist the natural forces of change when a community is transplanted in another land, cannot sustain itself indefinitely & is uncomfortable with potential newcomers.
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« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2010, 12:16:27 PM »

Don't worry, I doubt there's a single bishop outside of AOCA that thinks Met. Philip's model is an attractive one for Orthodox unity.

I think the fact that no one has yet made a reply stating their support/defense of Metropolitan Phillip's actions reveals a lot too.

The interview of Metropolitan Phillip that was recently done on Ancient Faith Radio gives some good insight into the thought processes the Metropolitan is using in regards to all of the recent changes in AOCA. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/metropolitan_philip_saliba_-_on_the_record I was very surprised by a lot of what I heard.


What were you surprised about? 
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« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2010, 03:09:47 PM »

Wow, the "purge" is on!

Mp. Philip has dismissed (and perhaps defrocking is in the works) yet another priest.  Fr. Elias Yelovich has been dismissed, allegedly for his comments here: http://ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?/archives/563-+Philip-Silences-His-Bishops.html#comments  comment #93 (entitled in bold On our Legacy and the Reset Button: the Confessions of a Muddled Mission Priest) and http://ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?/archives/565-Toledo-Blade-Story.html#comments comment #22 (entitled On Fathers and Beatings).

While Fr. Elias says much, there is, I am sure, much that has been left unsaid.  As always, there are at least 2 sides to every story, and not everyone always knows everything that transpires.  The Metropolitan appears to be acting in a somewhat Stalin-esque manner, and Fr. Elias appears to be being punished for disobeying him by speaking his conscience.  All very sad.  Very, very sad.

Fr. Elias was priest of a mission church in Maryland.  The church has been closed, at least until Divine Liturgy this Sunday.  It remains totally unclear at this point whether or not it will be permanently closed after that.  It has lost several members lately and, instead of growing, seems to be shrinking.
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« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2010, 03:39:17 PM »

That was a very sincere, and just plain GOOD statement by Father Elias. "Press the reset button" very true indeed.
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« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2010, 03:57:54 PM »

Glory be to Jesus Christ! I must confess that I really know little about the AOC or Metropolitan Philip as I have never lived in a community with an independent Arab Orthodox community. The local Arab Orthodox have been part of one of our community's  Hellenic Orthodox Churches apparently since its founding. The local Melkite Catholics were long since absorbed into the Roman churches or for many, the Episcopal church. (Interestintly enough, many Melkites were baptized at my church long ago when it was still Eastern Catholic.)

My son and his wife were affiliated with an Antiochian parish in Albany, NY when they lived there where they found the pastor and the small congregation welcoming, kind and honored that they choose to worship there with them.

I am writing in the hope that many of you from the AOC who despair and are in pain, regardless of whose 'side' you take can find some solace in my words.

As many of you know, my father was an ACROD priest for over sixty five years, literally spanning its history from his Seminary days through the present days. The posts that I read about the current troubles within the Antiochian Church remind me far too much of the struggles my father and ACROD endured in its formative years.  Returning to Orthodoxy out of a bitter split within the Greek Catholic Church, the founders of ACROD were determined not to repeat the types of jurisdiction shopping, division and ultimately schism that seemed to plague the Orthodox churches of our family members who came into the faith in earlier decades.

Despite their good intentions, the early years were both promising and bitter. Christ the Saviour Seminary thrived after a few years producing several generations of pastors and at least six Orthodox Bishops. New parishes were established, both from the ruins of fractured Greek Catholic communities and in the suburbs and the means to preserve the Rusyn traditions that were beloved to its people began to develop. Today we are not ethno-centered but for the most part not 'anti-ethnic', we are predominately English in our liturgical practices. Over time, most, if not all of of the Latinizations that crept into our practices during the centuries of the Unia have fallen to the side as we have fully embraced Orthodoxy.

Despite all, there were factions of parishes, jealous and disloyal priests and others who seemed always to be discontented. A large number of parishes under their pastors' direction chose to leave and join the Metropolia in the years following World War 2. Even the cathedral parish of the late Metropolitan Orestes in Connecticut was rendered asunder and split into three parts just years after it was constructed. The larger part joined the Metropolia, only to return after thirty some years over the calendar issue; the second was highly congregationalist in nature and left upon the selection of a successor Bishop to the Metropolitan only to join the UOC and return to ACROD after forty some years and the third, tiny church remained constant throughout. (I should note that the original church was retained by the Greek Catholics after years of bitter litigation and is located in the suburbs today.)
 
Indeed the very survival of the diocese was at risk as Metropolitan Orestes aged and the issue of succession was debated and played out for several years. During that time many parishes and priests were even approached by the Greek Catholics with 'promises' that they could return to the Eastern Catholic church without sacrificing married priests, congregational control etc... In other words, a new and 'improved' Unia was informally offered. Suffice it to say, no one took that bait!

As the years went by, a number of parishes and priests came and went, but the core remained loyal and committed to the future. In the mid-1960's a convert from Eastern Catholicism was elected Bishop. A forceful personality with whom many did not mesh well with, but a talented leader none the less, the late Bishop John did much to win the confidence of his priests and parishes and went on to found and build Camp Nazareth in Mercer, PA at a time when much larger jurisdictions were just starting to consider such ministries.

When Bishop John died suddenly in the prime of life, another crisis erupted. A tightly contested Sobor/Council was held and a new Bishop was chosen. That was Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos who has been our bishop these past twenty six years. Not all were pleased with his election, but his quiet, pastoral style of leadership allowed the Camp to flourish, a beautiful new Chancery building to be constructed adjacent to the Cathedral and a wooden-style Church of SS. Cyril and Methodius to be built at the Camp. Many missions have been established in the mid-Atlantic region under his protection.

His efforts to help heal the bitter divide within the Rusyn community both here and in Slovakia has won him respect from both Orthodox and Eastern Catholics alike.

Still, not all were, or are, happy. (The same can often be said for priests and their relationships with their congregations. The impact of Protestant based congregationalism continues to haunt most of us American Orthodox through the present times and sometimes drive the decisions of priests and bishops as well as the laity.)

As I grew older, I realized that my father was not always pleased with the directions taken by his superiors and even his hierarchs. Yet in spite of that, those who knew him will confirm that he had the respect and admiration of all in the diocese. He never went 'public' with his issues, but quietly, and without rancor, worked from within for change

Father Elias' words saddened me as they reminded me of much of what I have experienced at various times in my life as it applies to the Church. Yet, I could not help but think of my father's words. He firmly believed that God's will ultimately would prevail and  his ultimate loyalty was to the Church - a concept that went beyond any particular congregation or particular Dean or even any particular Bishop.

Many times that loyalty was tested over the years, but as he would remind me, all of us were tested - from the Lord in the desert for forty days to the apostles, including Peter during the passion. People come and people go, against all of that the Church will endure. I realize that the conscience of some may lead them down another path and that they must do what their conscience drives them to do.

In closing, I guess that I just wanted to let those suffering through this painful period, regardless of their allegience,  know that there really is nothing new under this sun and that better days do indeed lie ahead.

Let us keep our Antiochian brothers and sisters, their bishops, monastics, clergy and laity alike in our prayers.

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« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2010, 04:09:19 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry
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« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2010, 04:32:50 PM »

podkarpatska - thank you for your post.
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« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2010, 04:44:27 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.
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« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2010, 05:01:58 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.

Well, specifically this mess that those of us in the AOCA find ourselves at the moment. It's just really frustrating, because I really love my parish, but when I can't trust the leadership it is sad.
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« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2010, 05:02:37 PM »

I forgot to note that in my family's history, my grandparents were faced with a choice of conscience during the 1930's when Rome cracked down on the Greek Catholic church in America. The Greek Catholic Bishop of Pittsburgh during that time, +Basil Takach was as reviled as any hierarch in our modern Orthodox world.  My grandfather was a delegate to the Pittsburgh conference that first petitioned Rome for relief from its dictates and violations of the Union of Uzhorod and later elected +Fr. Orestes as Bishop and petitioned the Ecumenical Throne for reception into Orthodoxy. For those acts he, and many others, were formally excommunicated from the Catholic Church, forced out of the Rusyn American fraternal insurance organization (the Greek Catholic Union) and ultimately out of the large and beautiful temples they built when they first came to America. So I know full well the gravity of the crisis our Antiochian brothers and sisters face, regardless of where they stand, All of these struggles and choices that my family members endured were, in the end, worth the price that was paid. Our friends need our prayers and not our judgmental, emotional comments.
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« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2010, 05:11:14 PM »

I fear for my bishops, both of them (one a Metropolitan, and one a bishop--and he is not a mere token auxiliary, but a bishop!), though I fear for each for very different reasons. Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2010, 05:15:43 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.

Well, specifically this mess that those of us in the AOCA find ourselves at the moment. It's just really frustrating, because I really love my parish, but when I can't trust the leadership it is sad.

I agree that it is sad.  The whole of human history is sad.  Our leadership, i.e. bishops, metropolitans, patriarchs, priests are all *human*, and as such just are subject to sinful behavior as you or me or anyone else.  Trust our leadership?  Yes, that would be wonderful.  And I'm sure there are leaders in the Church who are perfectly trustworthy and wonderful.  I'd also bet that they're a minority.  Trust in God, and "render unto Caesar..."  And trust in God.
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« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2010, 05:19:16 PM »

"Trust in Allah... but tie up your camel!" - Sinbad the Sailor
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« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2010, 05:31:19 PM »

"Trust in Allah... but tie up your camel!" - Sinbad the Sailor

Yup!!
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« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2010, 06:17:45 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.

Well, specifically this mess that those of us in the AOCA find ourselves at the moment. It's just really frustrating, because I really love my parish, but when I can't trust the leadership it is sad.

I agree that it is sad.  The whole of human history is sad.  Our leadership, i.e. bishops, metropolitans, patriarchs, priests are all *human*, and as such just are subject to sinful behavior as you or me or anyone else.  Trust our leadership?  Yes, that would be wonderful.  And I'm sure there are leaders in the Church who are perfectly trustworthy and wonderful.  I'd also bet that they're a minority.  Trust in God, and "render unto Caesar..."  And trust in God.

Most leaders in the Church are trustworthy and wonderful; sorry for your disillusionment.
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« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2010, 06:30:10 PM »

This is starting to get sick... Angry

The "this" being what, precisely?  Human fallen-ness?  Dictatorial behavior?  The fact that we screw up everything we touch?  Consequences for our actions?  If so, I think it started a long time ago-in The Garden.

Well, specifically this mess that those of us in the AOCA find ourselves at the moment. It's just really frustrating, because I really love my parish, but when I can't trust the leadership it is sad.

I agree that it is sad.  The whole of human history is sad.  Our leadership, i.e. bishops, metropolitans, patriarchs, priests are all *human*, and as such just are subject to sinful behavior as you or me or anyone else.  Trust our leadership?  Yes, that would be wonderful.  And I'm sure there are leaders in the Church who are perfectly trustworthy and wonderful.  I'd also bet that they're a minority.  Trust in God, and "render unto Caesar..."  And trust in God.

Most leaders in the Church are trustworthy and wonderful; sorry for your disillusionment.

Yeah, me too Cheesy.  Now, I may have exaggerated some by saying that the wonderful, trustworthy ones are a minority, because I just plain don't know for sure.  By the same token, I'd bet you don't *know*, either, that most of our Church leaders *are* wonderful and trustworthy.

Be that as it may, I guess we tend to hear far more about the "bad" ones than the "good" ones, hence that makes it at least *seem* that there are more bad than good.

At the end of the day, however, it isn't our leaders or even our priests that get us to heaven or keep us from it.  We do that all by ourselves in choosing to join ourselves to Christ or separate ourselves from Him.
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« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2010, 06:33:59 PM »

Most leaders in the Church are trustworthy and wonderful; sorry for your disillusionment.

St. John Chrysostom said "I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish: and the reason is, that it is an affair that requires a great mind. Many are the exigencies which throw a man out of his natural temper; and he had need have a thousand eyes on all sides. Do you not see what a number of qualifications the Bishop must have? To be apt to teach, patient, holding fast the faithful word in doctrine. What trouble and pains does this require!" (Homily 3 on Acts)

Of course, it's good to always, always give your bishop the benefit of the doubt. And you have to generally stick with him, whatever you may think of him, unless he starts going way out in left field (heresy, etc.)
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« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2010, 06:43:21 PM »

Quote
Now, I may have exaggerated some by saying that the wonderful, trustworthy ones are a minority, because I just plain don't know for sure.  By the same token, I'd bet you don't *know*, either, that most of our Church leaders *are* wonderful and trustworthy.

I would bet given that podkarpatska is a lifelong member of the Orthodox Church, and displays an insightful and balanced view of how the history of Orthodoxy has unfolded in this country, that some deference should be given to his opinion.
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« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2010, 07:34:24 PM »

At the end of the day, however, it isn't our leaders or even our priests that get us to heaven or keep us from it.  We do that all by ourselves in choosing to join ourselves to Christ or separate ourselves from Him.

This deserves its own topic.  I think I'll start it.
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« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2010, 12:10:12 PM »

Quote
Now, I may have exaggerated some by saying that the wonderful, trustworthy ones are a minority, because I just plain don't know for sure.  By the same token, I'd bet you don't *know*, either, that most of our Church leaders *are* wonderful and trustworthy.

I would bet given that podkarpatska is a lifelong member of the Orthodox Church, and displays an insightful and balanced view of how the history of Orthodoxy has unfolded in this country, that some deference should be given to his opinion.

I would agree with you.  However, there *is* a difference between *knowing* and *opining*, right?
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« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2010, 12:32:55 PM »


I think podkarpatska has every right to say what he "knows" to be true in his church.

The priests and heirarchs he has dealings with are truthful and honest - that is not necessarily just an "opinion" of his, but, something he knows to be a fact.

I would second his knowledge - as I would add my own bishops to the list of honorable and trustworthy Shepherds - worthy to be followed!

Just because there's a few bad apples...should not disillusion the faithful or be the reason for them doubting Orthodoxy.  Historically such things have happened before.  Maybe, it's a way of the Lord to snip out the bad fruit from His vineyard.  Remember, He is still in charge.

 
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« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2010, 12:36:34 PM »


I think podkarpatska has every right to say what he "knows" to be true in his church.

The priests and heirarchs he has dealings with are truthful and honest - that is not necessarily just an "opinion" of his, but, something he knows to be a fact.

I would second his knowledge - as I would add my own bishops to the list of honorable and trustworthy Shepherds - worthy to be followed!

Just because there's a few bad apples...should not disillusion the faithful or be the reason for them doubting Orthodoxy.  Historically such things have happened before.  Maybe, it's a way of the Lord to snip out the bad fruit from His vineyard.  Remember, He is still in charge.

 

I shall concede the point.  I don't want to get into a p_____g contest. 
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« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2010, 10:36:11 PM »

Then there was the odd case where the Bishop Demetri of Ohio was taking medication and wound up at a casino with an (unidentified?) woman and became incoherent with alcohol. He claimed he can't remember the incident. Did he even remember going to the casino in the first place? Nothing? What a weird story.
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« Reply #106 on: November 13, 2010, 11:11:33 PM »

Then there was the odd case where the Bishop Demetri of Ohio was taking medication and wound up at a casino with an (unidentified?) woman and became incoherent with alcohol. He claimed he can't remember the incident. Did he even remember going to the casino in the first place? Nothing? What a weird story.

And Met. Philip wants to reinstate him??
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« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2010, 01:18:04 AM »

Then there was the odd case where the Bishop Demetri of Ohio was taking medication and wound up at a casino with an (unidentified?) woman and became incoherent with alcohol. He claimed he can't remember the incident. Did he even remember going to the casino in the first place? Nothing? What a weird story.

And Met. Philip wants to reinstate him??

Maybe there is something unexpected- like he was on certain medication, or someone taking advantage of him. These things happen in rare instances, and it does sound like a weird case. I mean, did he remember going to the casino in the first place, or was he wacked out when he got there?
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« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2010, 03:00:47 PM »

Then there was the odd case where the Bishop Demetri of Ohio was taking medication and wound up at a casino with an (unidentified?) woman and became incoherent with alcohol. He claimed he can't remember the incident. Did he even remember going to the casino in the first place? Nothing? What a weird story.

And Met. Philip wants to reinstate him??

Maybe there is something unexpected- like he was on certain medication, or someone taking advantage of him. These things happen in rare instances, and it does sound like a weird case. I mean, did he remember going to the casino in the first place, or was he wacked out when he got there?

and then the woman, the alcohol...etc. etc.
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« Reply #109 on: November 15, 2010, 01:36:50 PM »

What is difficult to understand with this situation is that America should be wide open to Orthodoxy and the church should seem to be able to flourish here (to some degree), if it is what it claims to be, since basic religious liberty & toleration still persists. Having seen enough inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct one wonders what really the situation in America is all about. On one hand, the church cannot fall back on a former centralized cultural (& or authoritarian) system nor can it claim to persist under oppression in America. Perhaps it is the legacy of "St." (emperor) Justinian that is the basic mode of operation upon which the church exists?
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« Reply #110 on: November 15, 2010, 01:52:00 PM »

What is difficult to understand with this situation is that America should be wide open to Orthodoxy and the church should seem to be able to flourish here (to some degree), if it is what it claims to be, since basic religious liberty & toleration still persists. Having seen enough inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct one wonders what really the situation in America is all about. On one hand, the church cannot fall back on a former centralized cultural (& or authoritarian) system nor can it claim to persist under oppression in America. Perhaps it is the legacy of "St." (emperor) Justinian that is the basic mode of operation upon which the church exists?

Not wishing to put words in your mouth. Just considering what you wrote. Do you mean to say this?

If the Orthodox Church is what it claims to be, then it should flourish in America (given religious liberty)
It is not flourishing (as evidenced by inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct)
Therefore...


If so, then I guess the question is, What does the Orthodox Church claim to be that it is not?
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« Reply #111 on: November 15, 2010, 02:08:45 PM »

If the Orthodox Church is what it claims to be, then it should flourish in America (given religious liberty)
It is not flourishing (as evidenced by inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct)
Therefore...


IMO, therefore, there is a leadership problem. I'll not delve into assumptions of imorality of even crimes. I don't know enough to state anything.

But, even if there were 4 million Orthodox as had been claimed, it would mean just slightly above 1% of American population and we have found out that it is even less.

Here in Brazil, we are waiting this year's census to have new numbers. As from the last one, there were just 50 thousand Orthodox in a country with 190 million. Now we are probably over 200 million and I wouldn't expect the number of Orthodox to have increased much if anything.

Our leaders simply either don't care for growth or actually contain it. The "word of mouth" here in Brazil is that there would be a non-written agreement with the RC to actually contain growth as a kind of political "argument" to be used against RC proselytism in Orthodox lands. Something like: "you see, we contain our growth in a big catholic country, you should do the same here". I really hope that is just a kind of conspirationism because it would be very self-destructive.

In the U.S., which is Protestant, who knows? The point is that not all leaders (and lay people for that matter) see reverent and planned growth as the mission of the Orthodox Church. Some think that they just have to stay there and those who come can be welcomed, but they should not be sought for. But let's go beyond the clergy. Those who finance the Church with donations would keep doing it if it were for a local parish, with a local priest in a poor neighborhood? Again, some would, some wouldn't. This lack of agreement on "what we are here for" is what keeps the Church relatively small in the New World.

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« Reply #112 on: November 15, 2010, 03:55:18 PM »

What is difficult to understand with this situation is that America should be wide open to Orthodoxy and the church should seem to be able to flourish here (to some degree), if it is what it claims to be, since basic religious liberty & toleration still persists. Having seen enough inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct one wonders what really the situation in America is all about. On one hand, the church cannot fall back on a former centralized cultural (& or authoritarian) system nor can it claim to persist under oppression in America. Perhaps it is the legacy of "St." (emperor) Justinian that is the basic mode of operation upon which the church exists?

Not wishing to put words in your mouth. Just considering what you wrote. Do you mean to say this?

If the Orthodox Church is what it claims to be, then it should flourish in America (given religious liberty)
It is not flourishing (as evidenced by inaccurate statistics & questionable conduct)
Therefore...


If so, then I guess the question is, What does the Orthodox Church claim to be that it is not?
On the first point, you said what I mean with better grammar. The second point is that to claim the truth then there should be an obligation to share it in some way and it appears that there is not an intention to share.
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« Reply #113 on: November 15, 2010, 10:08:29 PM »

As Fr. David's wife has since deleted her post, then I will delete what she wrote here too.
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« Reply #114 on: November 25, 2010, 08:51:48 AM »

Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple.  The Antiochian Church in the US has almost zero monastic presence, and as a consequence monks as powerhouses of prayer just are not there making the significant difference that they make in the Slavic and  Greek Church.

I have never ever seen my Russian rector not in a cassock even when I have stayed with him - and the local Greek priest used to wear Latin clothes but now only wears a cassock and the heterodox and unchurched instantly acknowledge and in the main respect them.
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« Reply #115 on: November 25, 2010, 09:44:30 AM »

Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple. 
The catechumen prayers have been cut out for centuries among the Greeks.

Pews I'm not sure about, except that I have seen them in the Old World.  In Egypt we have benches, which are not much different, and have been around for a while.

Western clerical street atire is Westernization, something to be expected, being in the West.

And as the Jews say "Just because a goat has a beard doesn't make him a rabbi."

My preference for Orthodox priests, at least Eastern Rite, is for cassocks. But not being a priest, it doesn't involve me personally, nor do I take a collar as anything more sinister.
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« Reply #116 on: November 25, 2010, 10:49:59 AM »

Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple. 
The catechumen prayers have been cut out for centuries among the Greeks.

Pews I'm not sure about, except that I have seen them in the Old World.  In Egypt we have benches, which are not much different, and have been around for a while.

Western clerical street atire is Westernization, something to be expected, being in the West.

And as the Jews say "Just because a goat has a beard doesn't make him a rabbi."

My preference for Orthodox priests, at least Eastern Rite, is for cassocks. But not being a priest, it doesn't involve me personally, nor do I take a collar as anything more sinister.

Happy Thanksgiving and Thank You, Isa. I was going to reply, but coming from a family of priests I thought I would keep quiet. You expressed my sentiments better than I would have and for that, again, Thanks!
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« Reply #117 on: November 26, 2010, 02:40:22 PM »

Fr. Elias Yelovich appears to have left the mainstream Orthodox Church.  He will now pastor a parish of the "Milan Synod".  http://www.milansynodusa.org/2010/11/new-mission-in-pennsylvania.html

May God have mercy on his soul.

To me, Met. Philip's actions against him are vindicated to some degree.  However, I cannot help but think that a different bishop might have handled a Fr. Elias in such a way that would have called him to repentance, and would not have driven him from the fold so easily.
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« Reply #118 on: November 26, 2010, 03:36:12 PM »

Fr. Elias Yelovich appears to have left the mainstream Orthodox Church.  He will now pastor a parish of the "Milan Synod".  http://www.milansynodusa.org/2010/11/new-mission-in-pennsylvania.html

May God have mercy on his soul.

To me, Met. Philip's actions against him are vindicated to some degree.  However, I cannot help but think that a different bishop might have handled a Fr. Elias in such a way that would have called him to repentance, and would not have driven him from the fold so easily.

The below thread discussed Fr. Elias Yelovich dismal:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31205.msg492449.html#msg492449
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« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2010, 11:07:55 PM »


I am from Michigan and have been witness to some of the odd behavior of the Antiochian clergy who penned the first letter that put this whole thing in motion.

From what I gathered, it simply seems to me that the Antiochian clergy wish to "modernize" Orthodoxy.  I actually sat in a class for weeks that was taught by one of the priests.  Countless times "Slavic" Orthodoxy was ridiculed and called fanatical.  

At first the references seemed petty, but, after weeks of it, I actually found myself having to defend what I thought (and still do) as proper Orthodox practices.  

It isn't even just that priests should wear cassocks, or that they should have no beards.  All of this is between the hierarchs and clergy.

However, when he began disparaging the Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, etc) for their fanaticism, it was a bit much.  We pray for catechumens.  We actually yell out "the doors, the doors!", we even CLOSE the Royal Gates - how rude is that of us, and it seemed the worst thing was that we stand in church.  I was told that if I come to his church and wish to stand, I need to park myself in the back so that I do not ruin the view for those who are sitting.  We were called "Super Orthodox!" which I am certain was meant to offend, but, didn't...as he was of the opinion we stuck too closely to rules, traditions, etc.  We need to change with the times.  We need to be more flexible.

I personally, love the Orthodox Church just the way it is.  It will not die if it does not "modernize".  However, it will get ill if it does.  The Church has been in existence for a long time.  Can you imagine what would be left of it, if it changed and morphed to suit each consecutive generation?

The fact that Orthodoxy changes little (only when necessary) is what draws people to it.

Why fix it, if it isn't broken?

May the Lord have mercy on everyone involved, and preserve Orthodoxy and the faithful!  This is all just a sad mark on the Church.  The devil does not sleep.


The Roman Catholic Church made radical changes in order to "modernize" and become supposedly more accessible to "modern" man.  The result: Protestantized and secularized liturgies, a near complete rejection of Gregorian chant in favor of English ditties, an experience of spiritual insipidness and doctrinal confusion.  I don't want something similar to be an issue in the Orthodox Church.   

I don't get this need to "fit in" by not wearing a cassock in public, etc.  Even many Eastern Catholic priests in this country wear cassocks in public no problemo.  ALSO, many Latin Catholic seminarians and priests wear black cassocks in public, again without problem.   

In my experience, the cassock communicates a message of the priesthood that is lost if the priest were regularly to walk around with a button-down shirt and jeans.  He still would be a priest, yes, but it would feel that he is ashamed of being the same man outside the church as he is within it.     




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« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2010, 11:45:57 PM »

Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple.
The catechumen prayers have been cut out for centuries among the Greeks.

Pews I'm not sure about, except that I have seen them in the Old World.  In Egypt we have benches, which are not much different, and have been around for a while.

Western clerical street atire is Westernization, something to be expected, being in the West.

And as the Jews say "Just because a goat has a beard doesn't make him a rabbi."

My preference for Orthodox priests, at least Eastern Rite, is for cassocks. But not being a priest, it doesn't involve me personally, nor do I take a collar as anything more sinister.

I've heard that pews became popular in the Old World when Protestantism came to town (need to sit down for those long sermons).  
Ever notice how pews never fit quite right in traditional basilica-style Catholic churches--how some seats are right behind pillars?

Something I'd point out for all is that the cassock is not specifically Eastern; it has a history of being the "street attire" in the West as well, even if it's use is not as ubiquitous as it is in the East.  As I understand the matter, the collar originally had the practical purpose of protecting the more expensive cassock and vestments from sweat, chafing and other potential dangers.  It's not the hangman's noose or anything sinister. Smiley

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« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2011, 09:48:55 PM »

I believe this has a lot to do with a very misguided view on authority and obedience.

Especially since the 'directive' for Priests not to wear cassocks in public is what can be deemed outside of the Traditional measures of the Church. Personally, I don't have a problem Priests blending in and case can be made that it is more pastorally sound that they do. However, I highly doubt that the cassock was the real reason why His Eminence 'fired' Father David.
I agree. This is unusual. Metropokitan Phillip should not be doing this. This is not his business, but that of the local bishop.
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« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2011, 12:33:52 AM »


Something I'd point out for all is that the cassock is not specifically Eastern; it has a history of being the "street attire" in the West as well, even if it's use is not as ubiquitous as it is in the East.  As I understand the matter, the collar originally had the practical purpose of protecting the more expensive cassock and vestments from sweat, chafing and other potential dangers.  It's not the hangman's noose or anything sinister.

Christ is Risen!

It is not traditional. In the West, sweat damaging the vestments was one of the purposes of the amice, by the way.
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« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2011, 10:15:05 AM »


I am from Michigan and have been witness to some of the odd behavior of the Antiochian clergy who penned the first letter that put this whole thing in motion.

From what I gathered, it simply seems to me that the Antiochian clergy wish to "modernize" Orthodoxy.  I actually sat in a class for weeks that was taught by one of the priests.  Countless times "Slavic" Orthodoxy was ridiculed and called fanatical.  

At first the references seemed petty, but, after weeks of it, I actually found myself having to defend what I thought (and still do) as proper Orthodox practices.  

It isn't even just that priests should wear cassocks, or that they should have no beards.  All of this is between the hierarchs and clergy.

However, when he began disparaging the Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, etc) for their fanaticism, it was a bit much.  We pray for catechumens.  We actually yell out "the doors, the doors!", we even CLOSE the Royal Gates - how rude is that of us, and it seemed the worst thing was that we stand in church.  I was told that if I come to his church and wish to stand, I need to park myself in the back so that I do not ruin the view for those who are sitting.  We were called "Super Orthodox!" which I am certain was meant to offend, but, didn't...as he was of the opinion we stuck too closely to rules, traditions, etc.  We need to change with the times.  We need to be more flexible.

I personally, love the Orthodox Church just the way it is.  It will not die if it does not "modernize".  However, it will get ill if it does.  The Church has been in existence for a long time.  Can you imagine what would be left of it, if it changed and morphed to suit each consecutive generation?

The fact that Orthodoxy changes little (only when necessary) is what draws people to it.

Why fix it, if it isn't broken?

May the Lord have mercy on everyone involved, and preserve Orthodoxy and the faithful!  This is all just a sad mark on the Church.  The devil does not sleep.


The Roman Catholic Church made radical changes in order to "modernize" and become supposedly more accessible to "modern" man.  The result: Protestantized and secularized liturgies, a near complete rejection of Gregorian chant in favor of English ditties, an experience of spiritual insipidness and doctrinal confusion.  I don't want something similar to be an issue in the Orthodox Church.   

I don't get this need to "fit in" by not wearing a cassock in public, etc.  Even many Eastern Catholic priests in this country wear cassocks in public no problemo.  ALSO, many Latin Catholic seminarians and priests wear black cassocks in public, again without problem.   

In my experience, the cassock communicates a message of the priesthood that is lost if the priest were regularly to walk around with a button-down shirt and jeans.  He still would be a priest, yes, but it would feel that he is ashamed of being the same man outside the church as he is within it.     


There is plenty to suggest that wearing western clerical suits, not having a beard makes Antiochian Orthodox priests indistinguishable from many Roman and Anglican clergy who wear these. 

From pews to organs to western clericals and shortened services the evidence suggests that this is a form of modernism not at this stage in doctrine but in practices.  if you cannot tell an Antiochian Orthodox priest by his attire apart from heterodox "priests" all you are doing is devaluing the sacred priesthood and missing the opportunity to witness the Orthodox Christian faith. 

Learn from the mistakes of the Roman and Anglican Christians.  All they did with their contemporary English and appalling modern songs - "Kumbaya" ad nauseum is make what were sacred spaces essentially devalued and de-sacralised.
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« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2011, 10:19:01 AM »


Bishops and priests with no beards, priests in Roman or Protestant street attire, organs in churches, pews in churches, cut out the catechumen prayers and so much more.  This is modernism pure and simple.
The catechumen prayers have been cut out for centuries among the Greeks.

Pews I'm not sure about, except that I have seen them in the Old World.  In Egypt we have benches, which are not much different, and have been around for a while.

My preference for Orthodox priests, at least Eastern Rite, is for cassocks. But not being a priest, it doesn't involve me personally, nor do I take a collar as anything more sinister.

Our local Greek Orthodox Archdiocese parish of the Holy Trinity is worshipping in an 1842 Anglican church that the Anglicans discarded for $50K.  It is in the process of getting an iconostasis to fir with a heritage building that has required keeping the Anglican high altar, communion rails, stained glass etc.  None the less, the priest wears a cassock in and out of church all the time, and in the liturgy the catechumen prayers are always used. His parish had almost daily services during Great Lent - doing a great service to the Greek and non-Greek Orthodox faithful.



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« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2011, 11:26:27 AM »

From pews to organs to western clericals and shortened services the evidence suggests that this is a form of modernism not at this stage in doctrine but in practices.  if you cannot tell an Antiochian Orthodox priest by his attire apart from heterodox "priests" all you are doing is devaluing the sacred priesthood and missing the opportunity to witness the Orthodox Christian faith. 

Learn from the mistakes of the Roman and Anglican Christians.  All they did with their contemporary English and appalling modern songs - "Kumbaya" ad nauseum is make what were sacred spaces essentially devalued and de-sacralised.

Not at this stage in doctrine?  Isn't this the same church that recognizes the non-Chalcedonians in Syria? Isn't this the same church that we've seen documented examples of virtually every form of ecumenism in their diaspora? One where even communing muslims is occasionally permissible?  The one that introduced the Roman Catholic "sign of peace" in their liturgy?

The problem with the Roman and Anglican "churches" is that they have warped what the sense of the Church is in the West, not 50 years ago, but 1000 years ago, some of it obvious liturgically within a few decades of the schism.

There is nothing to learn about Orthodoxy from a modern Anglican or Roman. You say learn from their "mistakes"; I say they weren't right to begin with, neither in my lifetime nor anyone else's on this list.
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« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2011, 11:31:25 AM »

Our local Greek Orthodox Archdiocese parish of the Holy Trinity is worshipping in an 1842 Anglican church that the Anglicans discarded for $50K.  It is in the process of getting an iconostasis to fir with a heritage building that has required keeping the Anglican high altar, communion rails, stained glass etc.  None the less, the priest wears a cassock in and out of church all the time, and in the liturgy the catechumen prayers are always used. His parish had almost daily services during Great Lent - doing a great service to the Greek and non-Greek Orthodox faithful.



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How about the full psalms? (We could go through a list). Although my question is, if this isn't the norm, if the anathemalendar is still followed, isn't this argument just a sham argument to begin with? And what does "keeping the high altar" mean? Communion rail? This just sounds like a big vagante recipe for an ecumenistic mess.
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« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2011, 01:06:53 PM »

I believe this has a lot to do with a very misguided view on authority and obedience.

Especially since the 'directive' for Priests not to wear cassocks in public is what can be deemed outside of the Traditional measures of the Church. Personally, I don't have a problem Priests blending in and case can be made that it is more pastorally sound that they do. However, I highly doubt that the cassock was the real reason why His Eminence 'fired' Father David.
I agree. This is unusual. Metropokitan Phillip should not be doing this. This is not his business, but that of the local bishop.

Metropolitan Philip *is* the local bishop. He has made that much abundantly clear. I don't agree with it but it is what it is.
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« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2011, 01:14:11 PM »

Our local Greek Orthodox Archdiocese parish of the Holy Trinity is worshipping in an 1842 Anglican church that the Anglicans discarded for $50K.  It is in the process of getting an iconostasis to fir with a heritage building that has required keeping the Anglican high altar, communion rails, stained glass etc.  None the less, the priest wears a cassock in and out of church all the time, and in the liturgy the catechumen prayers are always used. His parish had almost daily services during Great Lent - doing a great service to the Greek and non-Greek Orthodox faithful.



Tags edited -MK.

How about the full psalms? (We could go through a list). Although my question is, if this isn't the norm, if the anathemalendar is still followed, isn't this argument just a sham argument to begin with? And what does "keeping the high altar" mean? Communion rail? This just sounds like a big vagante recipe for an ecumenistic mess.

The full psalms of the Antiphons? Those were cut out in the Greek tradition long ago, in the early 19th century I believe. It's not some Vatican II-motivated modernist move, and it has nothing to do with the calendar.

As it was noted, they have to keep the building intact because it's historical. Take it up with the city council if you don't like that, or give the parish money to build a proper temple. We only rarely get everything we want in a church building.
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« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2011, 01:19:40 PM »

I never received instructions when to wear my cassock or when not to wear my cassock.  I pretty much understand that my bishop has more pressing issues to deal with than to tell his clergy when and where to wear clothing.  Not being cheeky just truthful. 
I also don't agree with showing up to church and putting on a cassock in front of everyone and taking it off in front of everyone before I leave the church so I wear my cassock to and from church.  One doesn't cease to be in the priestly orders when he leaves the church premises. You will not turn into stone for wearing a cassock off church property.
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« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2011, 01:26:29 PM »

I have never ever seen my Russian rector not in a cassock even when I have stayed with him - and the local Greek priest used to wear Latin clothes but now only wears a cassock and the heterodox and unchurched instantly acknowledge and in the main respect them.

In Britain, I've hardly ever seen Russian priests wearing cassocks outside the church - jeans is the norm. Greek priests here wouldn't be caught dead without a cassock, something the Russians find very strange.
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« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2011, 01:27:34 PM »

The full psalms of the Antiphons? Those were cut out in the Greek tradition long ago, in the early 19th century I believe. It's not some Vatican II-motivated modernist move, and it has nothing to do with the calendar.

As it was noted, they have to keep the building intact because it's historical. Take it up with the city council if you don't like that, or give the parish money to build a proper temple. We only rarely get everything we want in a church building.

As I am not in the Greek Church I will leave the Antiphon alone, since you admit the calendar, but still permit it.

Since Subdeacon David is from Hobart, I am sure that he's probably aware of what I am referring to in terms of ecumenism; after all, that's where Fr Michael (Wood) does some of his business, developing the "Anglo-Catholic" rite of ROCOR. I'm just surprised the Eastern rite churches do the same there.

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« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2011, 04:16:53 PM »

From pews to organs to western clericals and shortened services the evidence suggests that this is a form of modernism not at this stage in doctrine but in practices.  if you cannot tell an Antiochian Orthodox priest by his attire apart from heterodox "priests" all you are doing is devaluing the sacred priesthood and missing the opportunity to witness the Orthodox Christian faith. 

Learn from the mistakes of the Roman and Anglican Christians.  All they did with their contemporary English and appalling modern songs - "Kumbaya" ad nauseum is make what were sacred spaces essentially devalued and de-sacralised.

Not at this stage in doctrine?  Isn't this the same church that recognizes the non-Chalcedonians in Syria? Isn't this the same church that we've seen documented examples of virtually every form of ecumenism in their diaspora? One where even communing muslims is occasionally permissible?  The one that introduced the Roman Catholic "sign of peace" in their liturgy?

The problem with the Roman and Anglican "churches" is that they have warped what the sense of the Church is in the West, not 50 years ago, but 1000 years ago, some of it obvious liturgically within a few decades of the schism.

There is nothing to learn about Orthodoxy from a modern Anglican or Roman. You say learn from their "mistakes"; I say they weren't right to begin with, neither in my lifetime nor anyone else's on this list.

Fr. Deacon Joseph, I have never seen the Roman sign of peace in an Orthodox Church, and I also don't agree with recognising non-Chalcedonians, communing Muslims (who on earth did this?) or participation in the ecumenical movement.  I also agree that the Roman and Anglican Churches lost grace and their place in the Church at the Great Schism.  God alone however knows whether there is holiness found in anyone outside of the Orthodox Church.  I once knew a now reposed Anglican Benedictine monk who loved God and who had a real air of holiness, that seemed quite real to me.
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« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2011, 04:20:25 PM »

Our local Greek Orthodox Archdiocese parish of the Holy Trinity is worshipping in an 1842 Anglican church that the Anglicans discarded for $50K.  It is in the process of getting an iconostasis to fir with a heritage building that has required keeping the Anglican high altar, communion rails, stained glass etc.  None the less, the priest wears a cassock in and out of church all the time, and in the liturgy the catechumen prayers are always used. His parish had almost daily services during Great Lent - doing a great service to the Greek and non-Greek Orthodox faithful.



Tags edited -MK.

How about the full psalms? (We could go through a list). Although my question is, if this isn't the norm, if the anathemalendar is still followed, isn't this argument just a sham argument to begin with? And what does "keeping the high altar" mean? Communion rail? This just sounds like a big vagante recipe for an ecumenistic mess.

The full psalms of the Antiphons? Those were cut out in the Greek tradition long ago, in the early 19th century I believe. It's not some Vatican II-motivated modernist move, and it has nothing to do with the calendar.

As it was noted, they have to keep the building intact because it's historical. Take it up with the city council if you don't like that, or give the parish money to build a proper temple. We only rarely get everything we want in a church building.
I am not disagreeing Bogdan.  I think it wonderful that a truly beautiful church is now an  Orthodox temple, and the physical transformation is happening.  There is no confusing the retention of historical Anglican architecture with some "vagante recipe" at all, because that is not the case.
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« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2011, 04:21:45 PM »

I have never ever seen my Russian rector not in a cassock even when I have stayed with him - and the local Greek priest used to wear Latin clothes but now only wears a cassock and the heterodox and unchurched instantly acknowledge and in the main respect them.

In Britain, I've hardly ever seen Russian priests wearing cassocks outside the church - jeans is the norm. Greek priests here wouldn't be caught dead without a cassock, something the Russians find very strange.

I am curious.  Both the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR have many convert priests, deacons, subdeacons and readers in the UK.  Is this a convert issue or a Russian one?
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« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2011, 04:25:31 PM »

Fr. Deacon Joseph, I have never seen the Roman sign of peace in an Orthodox Church, and I also don't agree with recognising non-Chalcedonians, communing Muslims (who on earth did this?) or participation in the ecumenical movement.

All of those occurred in the Antiochian jurisdiction of Metropolitan Philip in America.
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« Reply #136 on: May 01, 2011, 04:43:55 PM »

I am curious.  Both the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR have many convert priests, deacons, subdeacons and readers in the UK.  Is this a convert issue or a Russian one?

A Russian one - the Greek convert priests also keep their cassocks on. I was told it dates to Soviet times when clerical garb was not to be worn outside of church, and, as one Russian monk told me, 'you'd have to wash your cassock every day if you wore it on the dirty streets of Moscow during the winter'.
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« Reply #137 on: May 01, 2011, 04:51:40 PM »


Fr. Deacon Joseph, I have never seen the Roman sign of peace in an Orthodox Church

Subdeacon David,

That's because the Kiss of Peace among the laity isn't a Roman innovation; it fell out of use in the middle ages, and many people forgot it's an organic part of Orthodoxy. Some Romans restored it in their churches, so it is erroneously labeled a Roman Catholic innovation when it's used in Orthodoxy.

Some, however, as Fr. Deacon Joseph might (forgive me if I am mischaracterizing) view its restoration as untimely, and part of a congregationalist/anti-clericalist attitude taken over from Protestantism. There is probably some degree of truth to the latter, IMO.
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« Reply #138 on: May 01, 2011, 05:02:22 PM »

The full psalms of the Antiphons? Those were cut out in the Greek tradition long ago, in the early 19th century I believe. It's not some Vatican II-motivated modernist move, and it has nothing to do with the calendar.

As it was noted, they have to keep the building intact because it's historical. Take it up with the city council if you don't like that, or give the parish money to build a proper temple. We only rarely get everything we want in a church building.

As I am not in the Greek Church I will leave the Antiphon alone, since you admit the calendar, but still permit it.

Since Subdeacon David is from Hobart, I am sure that he's probably aware of what I am referring to in terms of ecumenism; after all, that's where Fr Michael (Wood) does some of his business, developing the "Anglo-Catholic" rite of ROCOR. I'm just surprised the Eastern rite churches do the same there.

Fr. Deacon Joseph, as I imagine you know, there are many views on the
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"Anglo-Catholic" rite of ROCOR
and my own is pretty much out there.  I refer you to the current edition of the ROCOR Australian and New Zealand Diocesn quarterly magazine, Word of the Church Слово Церкви which reprints verbatim an article by Archpriest Phillip Andrews of the UK Diocese of ROCOR:http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/disang.htm The article is really another topic however it is interesting that it has been repeated in the Australian publication:
Quote
Some former Anglicans have in the past joined the Orthodox Church. Many have integrated the Faith and, after joining, have actually become Orthodox. Others, sad to say, having joined the Orthodox Church for negative reasons (disillusionment with the C of E) or for purely academic reasons and not for positive reasons (the realisation that without Orthodoxy their souls will die), and so not become Orthodox. As a result they have tended to split off from the mainstream, closing themselves off in little groups, where they practise what is in fact an approximate if very confused Orthodox rite with Anglican practices, a ‘make it up as you go along’ attitude. This means intercommunion, no confession, no fasting, sitting down during the services (indeed, virtually no services beyond the eucharistic liturgy), the use of Anglican hymns, the use of the Anglican calendar, no iconostasis, parish politics, and ‘protesting’ (= Protestant) attitudes towards Orthodox bishops and resulting divisions and boycotts of their respective cathedrals and bishops.

Another problem here is the refusal by many ex-Anglicans to accept that Orthodoxy is international. Unfortunately, Anglicans who are used to ‘uninational’ parishes find it very difficult to accept the multinational parishes, which are the reality of real Orthodoxy. Without the presence of other Orthodox nationalities, they will not learn Orthodoxy, they will not actually become Orthodox. The presence of ‘foreigners’ among them should be greeted by them and they should accommodate them, accepting parts of the service in ‘foreign’ languages (xenophobes must realise that every ‘foreign’ language is someone else’s native language). The nationalist exclusivity of many ex-Anglicans, to be frank, their phyletism or nationalism, and refusal to come to terms with the sometimes very, very dark national history of England/Britain (1), is not acceptable in the multinational Orthodox world. In our parish we have eighteen nationalities, from Russian to Greek, Romanian to Syrian, Australian to Latvian, French to Bulgarian – this is reality. History shows us that tiny ex-Anglican groups, unintegrated into the mainstream of the Orthodox Church, are basically just more ‘Continuing Anglican Churches’ and are not taken seriously by the rest of the Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #139 on: May 01, 2011, 05:46:12 PM »

Subdeacon David,

That's because the Kiss of Peace among the laity isn't a Roman innovation; it fell out of use in the middle ages, and many people forgot it's an organic part of Orthodoxy. Some Romans restored it in their churches, so it is erroneously labeled a Roman Catholic innovation when it's used in Orthodoxy.

From any stretch of the imagination, the current use of the sign of peace among the Romans is an innovation, unless we want to pretend we create a pretend version of what was done in the third century.

Quote
Some, however, as Fr. Deacon Joseph might (forgive me if I am mischaracterizing) view its restoration as untimely, and part of a congregationalist/anti-clericalist attitude taken over from Protestantism. There is probably some degree of truth to the latter, IMO.

As it is in its current method, of course I would. At around the time of the schism in the West, the use of an osculatorium developed (which we use). As we in practice use the icon on the Templon in the Eastern rite similarly, there is just no reason to reintroduce such public displays of affection in the Church. Culture has changed sufficiently (it has become more Christian over 2 millenia in this way, perhaps due to the fact that the surrounding society has become that much more ill) that it is no longer proper to introduce these practices, which were innocent and among those who knew Christ and the Apostles, but today is an excuse for impropriety.
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« Reply #140 on: May 01, 2011, 05:49:55 PM »

it is no longer proper to introduce these practices, which were innocent and among those who knew Christ and the Apostles, but today is an excuse for impropriety.
Father,

So you are saying that today, there is temptation involved with such physical contact, and this is the primary reason why it should not be re-introduced?
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« Reply #141 on: May 01, 2011, 05:54:43 PM »

Fr. Deacon Joseph, as I imagine you know, there are many views on the
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"Anglo-Catholic" rite of ROCOR
and my own is pretty much out there.  I refer you to the current edition of the ROCOR Australian and New Zealand Diocesn quarterly magazine, Word of the Church Слово Церкви which reprints verbatim an article by Archpriest Phillip Andrews of the UK Diocese of ROCOR:http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/disang.htm The article is really another topic however it is interesting that it has been repeated in the Australian publication:
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Some former Anglicans have in the past joined the Orthodox Church. Many have integrated the Faith and, after joining, have actually become Orthodox. Others, sad to say, having joined the Orthodox Church for negative reasons (disillusionment with the C of E) or for purely academic reasons and not for positive reasons (the realisation that without Orthodoxy their souls will die), and so not become Orthodox. As a result they have tended to split off from the mainstream, closing themselves off in little groups, where they practise what is in fact an approximate if very confused Orthodox rite with Anglican practices, a ‘make it up as you go along’ attitude. This means intercommunion, no confession, no fasting, sitting down during the services (indeed, virtually no services beyond the eucharistic liturgy), the use of Anglican hymns, the use of the Anglican calendar, no iconostasis, parish politics, and ‘protesting’ (= Protestant) attitudes towards Orthodox bishops and resulting divisions and boycotts of their respective cathedrals and bishops.

Another problem here is the refusal by many ex-Anglicans to accept that Orthodoxy is international. Unfortunately, Anglicans who are used to ‘uninational’ parishes find it very difficult to accept the multinational parishes, which are the reality of real Orthodoxy. Without the presence of other Orthodox nationalities, they will not learn Orthodoxy, they will not actually become Orthodox. The presence of ‘foreigners’ among them should be greeted by them and they should accommodate them, accepting parts of the service in ‘foreign’ languages (xenophobes must realise that every ‘foreign’ language is someone else’s native language). The nationalist exclusivity of many ex-Anglicans, to be frank, their phyletism or nationalism, and refusal to come to terms with the sometimes very, very dark national history of England/Britain (1), is not acceptable in the multinational Orthodox world. In our parish we have eighteen nationalities, from Russian to Greek, Romanian to Syrian, Australian to Latvian, French to Bulgarian – this is reality. History shows us that tiny ex-Anglican groups, unintegrated into the mainstream of the Orthodox Church, are basically just more ‘Continuing Anglican Churches’ and are not taken seriously by the rest of the Orthodox Church.

Unfortunately, as open as some of your clergy seem to be in promulgating the views you name above, they seem to be getting "promoted" by your Metropolitan.

The author of this site: http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/

Now represents the Western Rite of ROCOR outside the U.S. Inside, it is represented by a former "married Bishop" vagante, both by order of Metropolitan Hilarion. If your leaders didn't make such choices, I'd probably be able to take them more seriously.
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« Reply #142 on: May 01, 2011, 06:04:17 PM »

Father,

So you are saying that today, there is temptation involved with such physical contact, and this is the primary reason why it should not be re-introduced?

I'm saying that's why it fell out of disuse in the first place, and that the deformers of the modern West "restored" it for that very reason. Very early on, it was replaced with the kiss of sacred vestments and vessels in East and West, well before the point of the schism. And, having been raised a post-Vatican II Catholic, it was an excuse for immodesty ages ago when I was one, at least by some I knew.

So many of those "restorations" were but an excuse for licentiousness.
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« Reply #143 on: May 01, 2011, 06:16:06 PM »

When I was in the RCC, the Sign of Peace consisted of a handshake. I'm not sure how that's a door to licentiousness. The only church in which I've been kissed on the cheek as a greeting, is the Orthodox one I now attend.
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« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2011, 06:24:33 PM »

So many of those "restorations" were but an excuse for licentiousness.

You seem like a real delight.
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« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2011, 06:55:21 PM »

When I was in the RCC, the Sign of Peace consisted of a handshake. I'm not sure how that's a door to licentiousness. The only church in which I've been kissed on the cheek as a greeting, is the Orthodox one I now attend.

There is no definite "sign of peace" in the RCC, so that's just your experience speaking. It can be a handshake, a wave, a kiss on the cheek, or more, sadly. Here's from one RC instruction: "The nature of the sign is to be determined by the culture of the people who express it. In the United States, the bishops let local communities determine the actions and words. We have no set formula or gesture for extending this sign. Most often worshipers will shake hands and say, "Peace be with you." But you may also see them kiss or embrace, wave or flash a two-fingered sign of peace. Although today it would seem cold to omit the sign of peace, it is optional." http://www.rpinet.com/ml/2508bi1.html

Most Orthodox cultures have some level of affection involved in a greeting to begin with, as do many Latin cultures. In such a situation, it would have less import than in a more distant community. That said, in most traditional Orthodox Churches, men are separated from the women anyway, and there is a sense of what is inappropriate. "Doing what works for you" as in the RCC is opening a pandora's box.
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« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2011, 06:59:01 PM »

So many of those "restorations" were but an excuse for licentiousness.

You seem like a real delight.

What is that supposed to mean?
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« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2011, 08:30:53 PM »

I have never ever seen my Russian rector not in a cassock even when I have stayed with him - and the local Greek priest used to wear Latin clothes but now only wears a cassock and the heterodox and unchurched instantly acknowledge and in the main respect them.

In Britain, I've hardly ever seen Russian priests wearing cassocks outside the church - jeans is the norm. Greek priests here wouldn't be caught dead without a cassock, something the Russians find very strange.

I am curious.  Both the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR have many convert priests, deacons, subdeacons and readers in the UK.  Is this a convert issue or a Russian one?

Very much a Russian one.  In Russia and Ukraine, priests put on their cassocks when they arrive at Church.
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« Reply #148 on: May 01, 2011, 11:52:56 PM »

Very much a Russian one.  In Russia and Ukraine, priests put on their cassocks when they arrive at Church.

Depends on the area. That's true in St Petersburg, not so much in Moscow.
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« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2011, 02:22:22 AM »

Very much a Russian one.  In Russia and Ukraine, priests put on their cassocks when they arrive at Church.

Depends on the area. That's true in St Petersburg, not so much in Moscow.

Other than monks, I never saw priests walking around in cassocks in Moscow while I was living there.

In Ukraine, I'd often see the local parish priest in the marketplace wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
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« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2011, 02:24:42 AM »

It's been wonderful being here in Greece, as all the Priests wear their cassocks around. (they really have to)
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« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2011, 08:02:41 AM »

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That said, in most traditional Orthodox Churches, men are separated from the women anyway, and there is a sense of what is inappropriate.

I must visit a lot of modernist-ecumenist parishes, because I've only ever been in one that had the men and women separate. And come to think of it, it was a ROCOR parish that is now loyal to the Soviet-instituted-and-KGB-loving Moscow Patriarchate, so I guess they couldn't be that traditional after all. I won't tell you how we greet each other at my Antiochian parish, let me just say that it involves chocolate syrup, flexible straws, and a lot of giggling.
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« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2011, 10:12:37 AM »

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That said, in most traditional Orthodox Churches, men are separated from the women anyway, and there is a sense of what is inappropriate.

I must visit a lot of modernist-ecumenist parishes, because I've only ever been in one that had the men and women separate. And come to think of it, it was a ROCOR parish that is now loyal to the Soviet-instituted-and-KGB-loving Moscow Patriarchate, so I guess they couldn't be that traditional after all. I won't tell you how we greet each other at my Antiochian parish, let me just say that it involves chocolate syrup, flexible straws, and a lot of giggling.

I don't know, I was at one Antiochian parish that used strawberry syrup that week.... Wink Wink In ACROD we were advised that flexible straws were a horrible Western innovation. lol
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« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2011, 01:26:40 PM »

Fr. Deacon Joseph, I have never seen the Roman sign of peace in an Orthodox Church, and I also don't agree with recognising non-Chalcedonians, communing Muslims (who on earth did this?) or participation in the ecumenical movement.

All of those occurred in the Antiochian jurisdiction of Metropolitan Philip in America.

 Huh Huh  When and where?  I suppose since you said this you have some kind of documentation?  And, is "participation in the ecumenical movement" a) something you find distasteful? or b) a sin to be confessed and absolved of?  Just what do you mean, too, by "the ecumenical movement"?  (I hope I'm not opening a can of worms with *that* one! Grin)
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« Reply #154 on: May 02, 2011, 01:28:01 PM »

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That said, in most traditional Orthodox Churches, men are separated from the women anyway, and there is a sense of what is inappropriate.

I must visit a lot of modernist-ecumenist parishes, because I've only ever been in one that had the men and women separate. And come to think of it, it was a ROCOR parish that is now loyal to the Soviet-instituted-and-KGB-loving Moscow Patriarchate, so I guess they couldn't be that traditional after all. I won't tell you how we greet each other at my Antiochian parish, let me just say that it involves chocolate syrup, flexible straws, and a lot of giggling.

I don't know, I was at one Antiochian parish that used strawberry syrup that week.... Wink Wink In ACROD we were advised that flexible straws were a horrible Western innovation. lol

LOL!!   Grin Grin Grin
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