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Author Topic: Did the Roman Catholic Church sack Constantinople?  (Read 7428 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #135 on: November 02, 2010, 11:40:41 PM »

I think we can all join together and do something more productive with our time by protesting at the local British consulate or embassy for burning down the white house during the War of 1812.  They probably never even apologized.
Uh, that happened as payback for the Americans invading Canada and burning down its capital. The Americans don't remember that, let alone apologized for it.
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« Reply #136 on: November 02, 2010, 11:53:43 PM »

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
When did I claim that my posts were stimulating? All I said was that I brought up a valid point, which is that there are several EO and OO members on here who are a very poor witness for their faiths. You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics. I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.

Wyatt,

I don't see that pointing fingers at others for being poor witnesses to their faith on an Internet discussion forum which, no matter the forum it seems, is a medium notorious for polemics, misunderstandings, arguments, and real and perceived nastiness is really going to do good. One has to look at oneself, give others the benefit of the doubt, and realize that there can be heated arguments and sharp differences of opinion that are not personal, that bear more on people's opinions and firmly held beliefs than on what they think of an individual or collection of people.
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« Reply #137 on: November 02, 2010, 11:59:19 PM »

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
When did I claim that my posts were stimulating? All I said was that I brought up a valid point, which is that there are several EO and OO members on here who are a very poor witness for their faiths.

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.

Quote
You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics.

Have you repudiated Lateran IV? Lyons I? How is there a Latin Patriarchate in Jerusalem, but not a Eastern "sui juris" one?

Quote
I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members.

because it is demanded by the oversensitive ones, who prefer Ultramontanism over Orthodoxy and do not like being called on that?

Quote
It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.
Yes, well we'll have to somehow survive how you picture us. As how we see your side of the Tiber
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #138 on: November 03, 2010, 12:51:49 AM »

they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

You are right, there can be no apology since there are no victims of the sacking alive to apologize to.  The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  Such cunning... 
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« Reply #139 on: November 03, 2010, 12:54:58 AM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.
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« Reply #140 on: November 03, 2010, 01:00:53 AM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.

One is likely to burn out or think too much of oneself if one keeps on being an Internet moral crusader. Best to look at how you live your faith than to make statements about how others live theirs, especially as you are not God and cannot read the heart.
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« Reply #141 on: November 03, 2010, 01:03:24 AM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.

One is likely to burn out or think too much of oneself if one keeps on being an Internet moral crusader. Best to look at how you live your faith than to make statements about how others live theirs, especially as you are not God and cannot read the heart.
Okay, so I should just sit back while ialmisry provokes and judges all of us but not do it myself, eh? Apparently as long as you are Eastern Orthodox you have the green light to sin as long as it is "in the name of 'the faith.'" Ialmisry would make a good muslim.
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« Reply #142 on: November 03, 2010, 01:18:21 AM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.

One is likely to burn out or think too much of oneself if one keeps on being an Internet moral crusader. Best to look at how you live your faith than to make statements about how others live theirs, especially as you are not God and cannot read the heart.
Okay, so I should just sit back while ialmisry provokes and judges all of us but not do it myself, eh? Apparently as long as you are Eastern Orthodox you have the green light to sin as long as it is "in the name of 'the faith.'" Ialmisry would make a good muslim.

This is rather infantile. First, it is just your perception that ialmisry "provokes and judges all (Roman Catholics)." You are only in a position to make your own interpretations of his posts, not look into how he sees them or his motivation. Then you go ahead and make assumptions of all Orthodox based on what you've perceived one or a couple Orthodox have done with regard to Roman Catholics. Really, this does nothing positive. It's "tit for tat" resentment, and resentment is from Satan. Of course, arguments and discussions on religion can be very heated, giving rise to passions and nastiness. But no one person or group has the monopoly on this behavior on an Internet forum or in Church history, etc. I've seen a lot of anti-Orthodox posting from non-Orthodox and even Orthodox themselves on this and other forums and in real life. Sure, it really gets on my nerves, but I have to separate myself from it, recognize that many people are just crazy, and accept it. Some are ignorant, some are mentally unbalanced, some are honestly trying to figure things out, some get kicks being nasty. I can't change any of it, really. Like my replies to you, I have no idea if you will take them to heart. I make them, and we'll see what happens, and if nothing does, I suppose I will give up. Many snide comments are worthy only of being ignored. Even reasonable responses will make no difference.
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« Reply #143 on: November 03, 2010, 01:45:32 AM »

they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

You are right, there can be no apology since there are no victims of the sacking alive to apologize to.  The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  Such cunning... 

Secular governments have no problems apologising to people from whose ancestors they have stolen land and artifacts and whom they held in contempt and subjugation.   We see such apologies here in my own country for how the whites treated the native Maori.  We see it in Australia.  Is there something that prevents the leader of Christendom from doing what secular government are able to do?
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« Reply #144 on: November 03, 2010, 01:51:50 AM »


You are right, there can be no apology since there are no victims of the sacking alive to apologize to.  The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  Such cunning... 


His Holiness Pope Benedict speaking to the Patriarch of Constantinople:  "Look, I am sorry but I cannot return all your looted treasures and holy relics in Catholic churches and museums.  The owners are no longer alive.  The best I can do is pray for you so that you will accept their loss.  Would you like another glass of this Chianti, it's rather nice."
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« Reply #145 on: November 03, 2010, 02:06:16 AM »


You are right, there can be no apology since there are no victims of the sacking alive to apologize to.  The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  Such cunning...  


His Holiness Pope Benedict speaking to the Patriarch of Constantinople:  "Look, I am sorry but I cannot return all your looted treasures and holy relics in Catholic churches and museums.  The owners are no longer alive.  The best I can do is pray for you so that you will accept their loss.  Would you like another glass of this Chianti, it's rather nice."
Has anyone apologized for the massacre of the Latins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins
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« Reply #146 on: November 03, 2010, 02:15:23 AM »

Has anyone apologized for the massacre of the Latins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

1182 -  riots and mayhem... It was always Italians fighting Italians in Constantinople, the Venetian colony against the Pisans against the Genoans, and then the Greeks taking up the fight.... all about big business and profits and greed.

It is not as if the Italians were unaccustomed to periodic slaughter in Constantinople.  They slaughtered themselves!!!  It was always the Italian groups slaughtering other Italian groups in the city  - Italians from Pisa and Venice and Genoa slaughtering each other's colonies.  It was in fact the Greek army which had to come in and put a halt to these messy Italian slaughters.

So, no, it was not justified for the Greeks to slaughter Italians but there is no denying that such inter-Italian events were not uncommon.
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« Reply #147 on: November 03, 2010, 02:32:05 AM »

Has anyone apologized for the massacre of the Latins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

1182 -  riots and mayhem... It was always Italians fighting Italians in Constantinople, the Venetian colony against the Pisans against the Genoans, and then the Greeks taking up the fight.... all about big business and profits and greed.

It is not as if the Italians were unaccustomed to periodic slaughter in Constantinople.  They slaughtered themselves!!!  It was always the Italian groups slaughtering other Italian groups in the city  - Italians from Pisa and Venice and Genoa slaughtering each other's colonies.  It was in fact the Greek army which had to come in and put a halt to these messy Italian slaughters.

So, no, it was not justified for the Greeks to slaughter Italians but there is no denying that such inter-Italian events were not uncommon.

According to the source-Latin priests and monks received special attention in the slaughter. An estimated 60,000 slaughtered or forced to flee and and the Pope's representative was beheaded. 4,000 survivors sold as slaves to the Turks.

Evil begets evil.
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« Reply #148 on: November 03, 2010, 08:39:25 AM »

You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics.

I guess it doesn't matter how many times I say, "the sky is blue," you'll continue to say, "... since you say the sky is purple."  My comment was only designed to show clearly how ridiculous your comment was.  If you want, since you seem to want to, I can point out more modern cases where RC clergy, Archbishops, etc. have abused Orthodox people - but I won't do it outside the Politics Forum, since they're touchy subjects.  Suffice it to say, RC clergy have plenty of Orthodox blood on their hands from the last 100 years.  I don't hold you responsible for that, but it does further demonstrate the ridiculousness of your statement.

I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.

Tread lightly, my friend.  You've shown pretty poor judgment in attempting to paint all Orthodox Christians as unloving; any further comment about any of the moderators here will not be tolerated.  Consider yourself warned.
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« Reply #149 on: November 03, 2010, 11:10:59 AM »

Is it really constructive for us all to argue so passionately about historical wrongs and abuses when our secular opponents mock us and our enemies within Islam rage against their perception of history and religion as they aggressively plot to cause havoc and destruction throughout the world?

Arguing about whose ancestors sinned more against their neighbors plays into the hands of the evil one and the forces of darkness. We should pray for the martyrs of today, such as those Syrian Catholic worshipers who were brutally murdered by Al-Queda forces in Iraq this past Sunday. Do we believe that their priest who died clutching the Cross of our Lord in his hands is our enemy rather than our brother?  Will we sit by and worry about long-dead Venetians and Constantinopolitans as our foes devilishly work to reconquer Cordoba and re-establish a Caliphate? Would those Americans in particular, who passionately (and ideally they are correct) call for the return of plunder from the west to the Orthodox likewise call for the return of sacred Native American items and lands from our museums and possession?

History has played herself out, the present is our time to shape the world - both in a temporal as well as a spiritual sense.

Frankly, in the secular world within Western Europe, no nation state (and her people) collectively acted more barbarously against its neighbors than did Germany in the twentieth century; yet today the Germans have come to grips with their past and her citizens and former enemies don't endlessly go on and on about her history. If the west had not come together after the war and work towards a more peaceful Europe, perhaps the Iron Curtain would still stand.

We Orthodox must be firm our our faith and defend the Church against Her enemies. Our Catholic brothers and sisters have the same charge. We have to ask ourselves one question - In today's world who really is the enemy and can we find common ground to fight it without compromising Truth? I'd like to think we can - and must.

Last week the weeping Iveron Icon came to my parish. It is no wonder that she wept in the presence of all in the congregation, including probably as many Catholic believers as Orthodox.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #150 on: November 03, 2010, 11:23:17 AM »

Has anyone apologized for the massacre of the Latins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

1182 -  riots and mayhem... It was always Italians fighting Italians in Constantinople, the Venetian colony against the Pisans against the Genoans, and then the Greeks taking up the fight.... all about big business and profits and greed.

It is not as if the Italians were unaccustomed to periodic slaughter in Constantinople.  They slaughtered themselves!!!  It was always the Italian groups slaughtering other Italian groups in the city  - Italians from Pisa and Venice and Genoa slaughtering each other's colonies.  It was in fact the Greek army which had to come in and put a halt to these messy Italian slaughters.

So, no, it was not justified for the Greeks to slaughter Italians but there is no denying that such inter-Italian events were not uncommon.

According to the source-Latin priests and monks received special attention in the slaughter. An estimated 60,000 slaughtered or forced to flee and and the Pope's representative was beheaded. 4,000 survivors sold as slaves to the Turks.

Evil begets evil.

Indeed! The sack of 1204 made the conquest of 1453.

I notice that you haven't addressed the issue of the Latins slaughtering each other, bringing their home turg battles over into our house.  Unllike the Greeks of of Southern Italian, who populated the area long before Rome and the Latins arrived but were suppressed by invading Normans in support of the Vatican, the Latins in Constantinople were not natives of the area. What form would an apology take? "Sorry we killed your carpetbaggers, bloodsuckers, and mercenaries and their Trojan horse protectorate?"

Since the Vatican is running so far from its Crusader skeletons, to whom would we apologize?

But as Fr. George brought up, much more recent examples could be brought up, but that would have to be in politics.

Someone said that nothing can be changed now, so the Vatican did what it could by praying for the Crusaders' forgiveness. How about memory eternal for those they killed?
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« Reply #151 on: November 03, 2010, 11:26:59 AM »

Is it really constructive for us all to argue so passionately about historical wrongs and abuses when our secular opponents mock us and our enemies within Islam rage against their perception of history and religion as they aggressively plot to cause havoc and destruction throughout the world?

Arguing about whose ancestors sinned more against their neighbors plays into the hands of the evil one and the forces of darkness. We should pray for the martyrs of today, such as those Syrian Catholic worshipers who were brutally murdered by Al-Queda forces in Iraq this past Sunday. Do we believe that their priest who died clutching the Cross of our Lord in his hands is our enemy rather than our brother?  Will we sit by and worry about long-dead Venetians and Constantinopolitans as our foes devilishly work to reconquer Cordoba and re-establish a Caliphate? Would those Americans in particular, who passionately (and ideally they are correct) call for the return of plunder from the west to the Orthodox likewise call for the return of sacred Native American items and lands from our museums and possession?

History has played herself out, the present is our time to shape the world - both in a temporal as well as a spiritual sense.

Frankly, in the secular world within Western Europe, no nation state (and her people) collectively acted more barbarously against its neighbors than did Germany in the twentieth century; yet today the Germans have come to grips with their past and her citizens and former enemies don't endlessly go on and on about her history. If the west had not come together after the war and work towards a more peaceful Europe, perhaps the Iron Curtain would still stand.

We Orthodox must be firm our our faith and defend the Church against Her enemies. Our Catholic brothers and sisters have the same charge. We have to ask ourselves one question - In today's world who really is the enemy and can we find common ground to fight it without compromising Truth? I'd like to think we can - and must.

Last week the weeping Iveron Icon came to my parish. It is no wonder that she wept in the presence of all in the congregation, including probably as many Catholic believers as Orthodox.

Very, very well said.
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« Reply #152 on: November 03, 2010, 11:28:47 AM »

Is it really constructive for us all to argue so passionately about historical wrongs and abuses when our secular opponents mock us and our enemies within Islam rage against their perception of history and religion as they aggressively plot to cause havoc and destruction throughout the world?

Arguing about whose ancestors sinned more against their neighbors plays into the hands of the evil one and the forces of darkness. We should pray for the martyrs of today, such as those Syrian Catholic worshipers who were brutally murdered by Al-Queda forces in Iraq this past Sunday. Do we believe that their priest who died clutching the Cross of our Lord in his hands is our enemy rather than our brother?  Will we sit by and worry about long-dead Venetians and Constantinopolitans as our foes devilishly work to reconquer Cordoba and re-establish a Caliphate? Would those Americans in particular, who passionately (and ideally they are correct) call for the return of plunder from the west to the Orthodox likewise call for the return of sacred Native American items and lands from our museums and possession?

History has played herself out, the present is our time to shape the world - both in a temporal as well as a spiritual sense.

Frankly, in the secular world within Western Europe, no nation state (and her people) collectively acted more barbarously against its neighbors than did Germany in the twentieth century; yet today the Germans have come to grips with their past and her citizens and former enemies don't endlessly go on and on about her history. If the west had not come together after the war and work towards a more peaceful Europe, perhaps the Iron Curtain would still stand.

We Orthodox must be firm our our faith and defend the Church against Her enemies. Our Catholic brothers and sisters have the same charge. We have to ask ourselves one question - In today's world who really is the enemy and can we find common ground to fight it without compromising Truth? I'd like to think we can - and must.

Last week the weeping Iveron Icon came to my parish. It is no wonder that she wept in the presence of all in the congregation, including probably as many Catholic believers as Orthodox.

Very, very well said.

I agree.
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« Reply #153 on: November 03, 2010, 12:00:07 PM »

Okay, so I should just sit back while ialmisry provokes and judges all of us but not do it myself, eh?

Yep.
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« Reply #154 on: November 03, 2010, 12:05:16 PM »

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
When did I claim that my posts were stimulating? All I said was that I brought up a valid point, which is that there are several EO and OO members on here who are a very poor witness for their faiths.

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.

Quote
You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics.

Have you repudiated Lateran IV? Lyons I? How is there a Latin Patriarchate in Jerusalem, but not a Eastern "sui juris" one?

Quote
I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members.

because it is demanded by the oversensitive ones, who prefer Ultramontanism over Orthodoxy and do not like being called on that?

Quote
It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.
Yes, well we'll have to somehow survive how you picture us. As how we see your side of the Tiber

This is one of Isa's favorite pictures. See, EOs are more interested in the Papacy than we are.
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« Reply #155 on: November 03, 2010, 12:11:05 PM »

It makes all the sense in the world to argue about something that happened several centuries ago that nobody here can do anything about.

I don't get why people are arguing about it; I brought it up to make a point about something unrelated to it.  But hey, that's the nature of the 'net.
Because you rehashed something that's long been dead where as I brought up something that one can verify for themselves by reading this forum, perhaps?  Wink


Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
Given your smug sense of superiority demonstrated in this post, all I can say is, "Doctor, heal thyself."

I know Fr. George doesn't need me to defend him, but... That's certainly not how I read his post.  And knowing Fr. George personally, he is certainly not one to regard himself as superior.  Further, do remember you're addressing a priest, please.  I feel from reading your posts over the years that you are a good, devout Catholic.  Would you address a Catholic priest in such a manner?
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« Reply #156 on: November 03, 2010, 12:14:52 PM »

It makes all the sense in the world to argue about something that happened several centuries ago that nobody here can do anything about.

I don't get why people are arguing about it; I brought it up to make a point about something unrelated to it.  But hey, that's the nature of the 'net.
Because you rehashed something that's long been dead where as I brought up something that one can verify for themselves by reading this forum, perhaps?  Wink


Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
Given your smug sense of superiority demonstrated in this post, all I can say is, "Doctor, heal thyself."

I know Fr. George doesn't need me to defend him, but... That's certainly not how I read his post.  And knowing Fr. George personally, he is certainly not one to regard himself as superior.  Further, do remember you're addressing a priest, please.  I feel from reading your posts over the years that you are a good, devout Catholic.  Would you address a Catholic priest in such a manner?
you are right. Regardless of how I judge his actions, he is priest. I'll delete the post.
Fr. George, please forgive my rash behavior.
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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« Reply #157 on: November 03, 2010, 01:19:46 PM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.

One is likely to burn out or think too much of oneself if one keeps on being an Internet moral crusader. Best to look at how you live your faith than to make statements about how others live theirs, especially as you are not God and cannot read the heart.
I don't have to read his heart. I can read the textual vomit he spews all over the place day in and day out.
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« Reply #158 on: November 03, 2010, 01:36:19 PM »

you are right. Regardless of how I judge his actions, he is priest. I'll delete the post.
Fr. George, please forgive my rash behavior.

I don't think you've sinned against me - but, nonetheless, God forgives and I forgive.  I haven't taken anything you, Wyatt, or anyone else has said personally - I see them as comments about faith, rhetoric, etc.  My only goal in making the comment that has stirred this thread is to discredit what I believe to be the most flagrantly wrong and certainly destructive piece of rhetoric - the "love vs no love" comment.

It is a tough business, "discussion."  On the one hand, we're trying our best to defend our positions and attack the others.  But so many times, people don't remain focused on the topics and instead turn to the people; for me, that is impossible in an EO-RC discussion - I have known personally far too many good, faithful, and loving RCs (some of whom are 'family' by all standards except blood) to personally attack anyone in your communion.  I will not back down from my belief that there are elements in RCism that are harmful, specifically revolving around what we EOs believe to be an inflated theology of the Papcy; but I will make these critiques with the tempered knowledge and belief that RCs are generally good and faithful people, and the world is better off having them (up and above most other groupings of Christians and non-Christians).
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« Reply #159 on: November 03, 2010, 02:54:22 PM »

I can read the textual vomit he spews all over the place day in and day out.

Oh, well. So much for not doing it yourself, eh?

If it upsets you so much, don't read it.
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« Reply #160 on: November 03, 2010, 03:10:39 PM »

Oh, well. So much for not doing it yourself, eh?
I was told that I shouldn't be getting upset since I don't know people like ialmisry's "heart" and that only God can judge that. If that's the rules we're playing by then you can hardly determine my true motives just by reading the text I type. The most you can do is infer where I am coming from when I say something but you cannot know for sure.

If it upsets you so much, don't read it.
Do my posts upset you? You are free to take your own advice if they are.
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« Reply #161 on: November 03, 2010, 03:23:32 PM »

This is getting ridiculous!
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« Reply #162 on: November 03, 2010, 03:26:44 PM »

This is getting ridiculous!
I agree. We need that Catholic moderator badly. I nominate Elijahmaria.
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« Reply #163 on: November 03, 2010, 03:43:01 PM »

I implore you to please stop the bickering and 'ad hominens' for a minute and read this article about the latest Islamist threats against Christians in Iraq and across the Holy Land.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/03/alqaida-christians-iraq-threat 

My brother (an ACROD priest)  is part of an Orthodox pilgrimage in the Holy Land led by our local OCA priest that includes a number of priests and several dozen faithful. They are there through November 12th.  Use your energy to pray for their safety and the safety of all Christians in that region rather than belittling each other. It is said that Nero fiddled while Rome burned, and then falsely blamed the Christians for the fire unleashing the first of the great persecutions. Let us not 'fiddle' in the face of the real threats to the Faith in the modern world lest we release the same demonic forces that the ancient Romans unleashed.
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« Reply #164 on: November 03, 2010, 04:12:23 PM »

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
When did I claim that my posts were stimulating? All I said was that I brought up a valid point, which is that there are several EO and OO members on here who are a very poor witness for their faiths.

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.

Quote
You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics.

Have you repudiated Lateran IV? Lyons I? How is there a Latin Patriarchate in Jerusalem, but not a Eastern "sui juris" one?

Quote
I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members.

because it is demanded by the oversensitive ones, who prefer Ultramontanism over Orthodoxy and do not like being called on that?

Quote
It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.
Yes, well we'll have to somehow survive how you picture us. As how we see your side of the Tiber

This is one of Isa's favorite pictures. See, EOs are more interested in the Papacy than we are.
Oh? I don't see that flag on the left

in Orthodox Chruchs.  Nor has any local Orthodox bishop had to be approved by the Vatican.

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« Reply #165 on: November 03, 2010, 04:23:26 PM »

I agree. We need that Catholic moderator badly.

No.

... and...

No.
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« Reply #166 on: November 05, 2010, 03:53:49 AM »

Russians Plan to Sack Rome (USP, November 4,2010).  News has leaked out of special Russian paramilitary forces being trained at secret locations in Transbekistan.  Their purpose is the sacking of Rome and Venice, Florence and other major Italian cities as well as those of France and Germany should it becomes apparent that the forces of Islam, political or military, are about to take possession of these countries.  The Russian Government intends to rescue the priceless artistic treasures of Italy and Western Europe.  Islam, known for its iconoclasm, may wish to destroy these items.  Some Russian advisors are advising that there should be a pre-emptive strike in the near future rather than wait for the Islamic threat to grow any stronger.  His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI who took an oath at his papal election to maintain the treasures of the Vatican will be invited to accompany the works to Russia and accept the position of Supreme Curator at one of the Russian museums which will be built to house them.

The Grand Mufti of Hydrobul has expressed his agreement:  "Da, da, let the Russians take them all away,  We'd only have to destroy them when we take control of Europe anyway.  The Taliban boys would want to blow them all up."

 Smiley
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 03:58:16 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #167 on: November 05, 2010, 05:01:47 AM »

Isa,

The point I'm making is it wasn't the desire of the Church to make any military move after Constantinople. I'll admit, after the deed was done, the Pope used the current situation to the Catholic Church advantage. Probably knowing, without means of communication beyond foot, trying to reconcile what had been done and then moving forward with unification would be that much harder. As you can see, the event hasn't been forgotten even 800 years later.

And as had been explained, there is a reason it hasn't been forgotten. The event epitomizes a Latin attitude that persists to this day. Just look at how the Vatican treats its fellow Eastern Catholics.

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.
No, just noticing for instance the projection of the Vatican's mandated clerical celibacy, for instance, on everywhere outside majority Orthodox countries (where its ruse is obvious, and it can't get away with such antics).

Clerical celibacy is a discipline for all priests in the Catholic Church, not just Bishops as in the Orthodox Church (as you are well aware). Since they are in the Catholic Church, there was a period when that discipline was desired throughout the Church. Why? Because, while you see the Easter Catholics as hostage Orthodox under the Pope, the ECs are in reality a member of the greater Catholic Church. Therefore, the discipline had been pushed universally. Of course, there are also ECs that prefer to keep the Eastern discipline. Just as there are Latin Catholics that want to adopt the Eastern discipline.
Is it legitimate for the Eastern Orthodox to reject any union with the Roman Catholic Church because of a fear of latinisation?  If they point to what happened to the Eastern Catholic Church and the claims of the Pope of Rome to Supreme universal jurisdiction over the entire Church, then what should be the response of Catholics?
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« Reply #168 on: November 05, 2010, 05:06:41 AM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!
There can be no imposition of clerical celibacy in the eastern Catholic Churches except that which is willing accepted by their Metropolitans.
.
Is that really true? I ask because I thougth that a while back, the metropolitans in the USA of the Ruthenian Church asked for a lifting of the mandatory celibacy rule for the USA and it was denied by the Vatican?
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« Reply #169 on: November 05, 2010, 05:16:44 AM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.

Catholic ecclesiology unfortunately is lacking in how the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churhces relate and this is what the Eastern Bishops at the Middle East Synod were complaining about.  The Pope has the primacy to defend the rights of all Churches, not so he can micromanage Eastern Churches when it is good for the Latin Church.  Case in point: Married priests in the diaspora.  Most, but not all, Eastern Churches have resumed ordaining married men whether the Rome or Latin bishops like it.  Rome has said nothing and that is the problem.  The Pope should apologize for his predecessors ever restricting the ordination of married men in the Eastern Churches and state unequivocally it is the right of Eastern Churches to ordain married men everywhere.  Latin bishops should be told catechize their faithful and not complain they will be scandalized, which is a cop out.  Patriarchs should be given immediate jurisdiction over their faithful everywhere in the world.  Why is the Latin Church the only sui iuris church without territorial limitation?  The Congregation for Eastern Churches should be abolished.  It is disrespectful for Patriarchs to be reporting to Cardinals.  Setting aside doctrinal issues, these three disciplinary issues are a major roadblock the Eastern Orthodox  would never accept.  Lets take care of these things so they can see Rome is serious about reunion.  If Rome doesn't, all the talk about return to tradition is lip service.

Dear Father Deacon,

I agree with you here, with one reservation.  It seems to me that our bishops and metropolitans have an obligation to be polite to the curial secretariat, but being polite is not the same thing as yielding every time the curial offices try to meddle in the affairs of the eastern Churches.  

At any time our Metropolitan Archbishops could have thanked the Secretary of any of the Curial offices and told them that the matter would be taken up in the local synod.  Till then, it would be business as usual in the running of each particular Church.

Eastern Catholic leadership has wandered its way onto the rocks,  ever more surely than they were dragged there kicking and screaming.

And that is where you and I differ.

Mary
The question I see  is whether or not the Pope of Rome claims to have or actually does have Supreme universal jurisdiction over the entire Catholic Church?
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« Reply #170 on: November 05, 2010, 05:22:56 AM »

The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  
There are other things that the Pope can do. For example, he can ask for a return of all of the stolen artifacts to the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #171 on: November 05, 2010, 07:07:46 AM »

I think that you guys forget that not only Italians sacked Constantinople, but Arabs, Rusins, Bulgarians..etc.
Do you forget the wars which the Bulgarians fought against the Greeks? Why did the Greeks enslave the Bulgarians?
.
Quote
In 1018 Emperor Basil II Bulgaroctonus conquered Bulgaria and made it a province of the Byzantine Empire.

http://www.omda.bg/engl/history/common_hist.htm#the%20first%20Bulgarian%20kingdom (1)

The idea, the ideologies of a divine Byzantine Empire are just a myth because it was nothing other than just another autocratic, imperialist empire. The idealisation of the Byzantine period, of the Eastern Roman Empire by the Russian philosophers of the 19th century were just an argument to support the injustice of the Tsarist Empire. This mode of thought has created a mythology which underlies Orthodox religious thought. There have been enough essays on the wrongs of Catholics believing in the ancien regime but very few want to underline that the Orthodox view of history is nothing but a piecemeal collage of moralising propaganda for Russian Imperialism. The theory of transmutation of Byzantium to Russia was invented to provide reasoning for the future conquests of China, Central Asia, India and Persia. Sadly the Orthodox are in reaction to the modern world, believing that the moralising imperialist spirituality of the 19th century is the authentic faith of Christ. This entrenchment not in theological Tradition but in historical propaganda prevents the Orthodox Church from claiming the allegiance of its faithful, who prefer faith healers and New Age to Christianity.

Imperialism is blind, is the moral of the story. The Byzantine Greek lust of power is not Christian in any way. The prospering civilisations which are destroyed by imperialist aggressors, are as we are told by the invaders, are either imaginery or temporary, for we must believe that the Empire shall last forever.(2)




1.
Quote
In 681 AD the Bulgars defeated the Byzantine army and united themselves with the Slavonic tribes against the Byzantines, founding the first Bulgarian state. This new state was governed by a khan with the help of Slavic and Bulgar princes. There was a period of assimilation for 200 years which created a nationality which took the name of the Bulgar but culturally was strongly influenced by Slavonic civilisation.
...
Khan Simeon defeated the Byzantine army at Aheloi in 917 which led to the annexation of Macedonia and Thrace. The reigns of Petar 1 (927-69) and Boris II (969-71) were marked by increasingly violent conflicts among the nobility. Byzantium also posed a constant threat. Religious unrest was also evident. Bulgarians began to question Christian teachings as they heard them in their own language. The Bogomils of Bulgaria were a religious sect who practised a radical dualistic doctrine, severe asceticism and imitation of the apostles' lives. The Kathari sect which spread to France and Italy developed out of this doctrine. A full-scale onslaught by Byzantium reduced the Bulgarian Kingdom to a rump known as the Western Kingdom which was ruled from Ohrid. Khan Samil was responsible for partly restoring the old kingdom until he died after the battle of Strumnitsa in 1014. Ohrid was captured in 1018 and the whole of Bulgaria became a Byzantine province.
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/index.htm
2.
 
Quote
In his Chronicle, the 12th-century Michael the Syrian, patriarch of the Syrian Jacobites, described the brutalities and atrocities of Nikephoros. "Nikephoros, emperor of the Romans, walked into the Bulgarians' land: he was victorious and killed great number of them. He reached their capital, seized it and devastated it. His savagery went to the point that he ordered to bring their small children, got them tied down on earth and made thresh grain stones to smash them."
Quote
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« Reply #172 on: November 05, 2010, 10:12:02 AM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!
There can be no imposition of clerical celibacy in the eastern Catholic Churches except that which is willing accepted by their Metropolitans.
.
Is that really true? I ask because I thougth that a while back, the metropolitans in the USA of the Ruthenian Church asked for a lifting of the mandatory celibacy rule for the USA and it was denied by the Vatican?
Yes. The Melkites just ignore the ban, as they cannot get it lifted.  The Maronites tried to lift it, and on the basis of one (1) bishop out of the Maronite episcopate, the Vatican denied it.

This is the reason why we are not fooled by what the Vatican says, especially to us.  We look at what it does, especially to its "sui juris" ecclesiastical communities.
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« Reply #173 on: November 05, 2010, 10:52:04 AM »

Quote
Do you forget the wars which the Bulgarians fought against the Greeks?

Evidently people have forgotten what Orthodox Christians did to each other in the 20th century.  Look what happened in Macedonia after the Balkan wars.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #174 on: November 05, 2010, 12:12:19 PM »

I think that you guys forget that not only Italians sacked Constantinople, but Arabs, Rusins, Bulgarians..etc.

No, Arabs laid seige to Constantinople.  They never sacked it, one reason being that the Christian Arabs in defected from the caliph's army to Constantinople's side, one such Arab became Leo III Emperor of the Romans.

The Rus' seige predated the foundation of the Kievan Rus' state, let alone its baptism.

The Bulgarians fought for Constantinople against the Muslim siege of Constantinople in 717. The only siege they prosecuted against (rather for) the capital was with the Romanians and Romans against the Latin usurpers occupying the city in 1235, the Orthodox joining forces against the Ultramontanist heretics to restore the rightful patriarch on the throne that the Crusaders put a (literal) whore on.

Besides the Turks, only the Latins sacked Constantinople.

Quote
Do you forget the wars which the Bulgarians fought against the Greeks?

No.

Quote
Why did the Greeks enslave the Bulgarians?

Pagan or Orthodox?
.
Quote
The idea, the ideologies of a divine Byzantine Empire are just a myth because it was nothing other than just another autocratic, imperialist empire. The idealisation of the Byzantine period, of the Eastern Roman Empire by the Russian philosophers of the 19th century were just an argument to support the injustice of the Tsarist Empire. This mode of thought has created a mythology which underlies Orthodox religious thought. There have been enough essays on the wrongs of Catholics believing in the ancien regime but very few want to underline that the Orthodox view of history is nothing but a piecemeal collage of moralising propaganda for Russian Imperialism. The theory of transmutation of Byzantium to Russia was invented to provide reasoning for the future conquests of China, Central Asia, India and Persia. Sadly the Orthodox are in reaction to the modern world, believing that the moralising imperialist spirituality of the 19th century is the authentic faith of Christ. This entrenchment not in theological Tradition but in historical propaganda prevents the Orthodox Church from claiming the allegiance of its faithful, who prefer faith healers and New Age to Christianity.

Imperialism is blind, is the moral of the story. The Byzantine Greek lust of power is not Christian in any way. The prospering civilisations which are destroyed by imperialist aggressors, are as we are told by the invaders, are either imaginery or temporary, for we must believe that the Empire shall last forever.(2)

You obviously quote someone here but do not cite them, so I'll hold off addressing this propaganda until you do so, or put it in your own words. In particular I'm interested in what "injustice of the Tsarist Empire" your source is alleging: that rather than the Polish supported and related Sviatopolk the Accused fraticide and False Dmitry ruling as Tsar of All the Rus', the Tsar of All the Rus' ruled as King of Poland?

A problem is that the "idealisation" it decries predates the foundation of the Rus' state and even the Rus' Khaganate.

Quote
1.
Quote
In 681 AD the Bulgars defeated the Byzantine army and united themselves with the Slavonic tribes against the Byzantines, founding the first Bulgarian state. This new state was governed by a khan with the help of Slavic and Bulgar princes. There was a period of assimilation for 200 years which created a nationality which took the name of the Bulgar but culturally was strongly influenced by Slavonic civilisation.
...
Khan Simeon defeated the Byzantine army at Aheloi in 917 which led to the annexation of Macedonia and Thrace. The reigns of Petar 1 (927-69) and Boris II (969-71) were marked by increasingly violent conflicts among the nobility. Byzantium also posed a constant threat. Religious unrest was also evident. Bulgarians began to question Christian teachings as they heard them in their own language. The Bogomils of Bulgaria were a religious sect who practised a radical dualistic doctrine, severe asceticism and imitation of the apostles' lives. The Kathari sect which spread to France and Italy developed out of this doctrine. A full-scale onslaught by Byzantium reduced the Bulgarian Kingdom to a rump known as the Western Kingdom which was ruled from Ohrid. Khan Samil was responsible for partly restoring the old kingdom until he died after the battle of Strumnitsa in 1014. Ohrid was captured in 1018 and the whole of Bulgaria became a Byzantine province.
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/index.htm
2.
 
Quote
In his Chronicle, the 12th-century Michael the Syrian, patriarch of the Syrian Jacobites, described the brutalities and atrocities of Nikephoros. "Nikephoros, emperor of the Romans, walked into the Bulgarians' land: he was victorious and killed great number of them. He reached their capital, seized it and devastated it. His savagery went to the point that he ordered to bring their small children, got them tied down on earth and made thresh grain stones to smash them."
Quote
And what did Krum do with Nikephoros? How does Nikephoros I go down in the annuals of the Greek Roman historians? How did the Romans describe him?
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« Reply #175 on: November 05, 2010, 04:53:14 PM »

I think that you guys forget that not only Italians sacked Constantinople, but Arabs, Rusins, Bulgarians..etc.
Do you forget the wars which the Bulgarians fought against the Greeks? Why did the Greeks enslave the Bulgarians?
.
Quote
In 1018 Emperor Basil II Bulgaroctonus conquered Bulgaria and made it a province of the Byzantine Empire.

http://www.omda.bg/engl/history/common_hist.htm#the%20first%20Bulgarian%20kingdom (1)

The idea, the ideologies of a divine Byzantine Empire are just a myth because it was nothing other than just another autocratic, imperialist empire. The idealisation of the Byzantine period, of the Eastern Roman Empire by the Russian philosophers of the 19th century were just an argument to support the injustice of the Tsarist Empire. This mode of thought has created a mythology which underlies Orthodox religious thought. There have been enough essays on the wrongs of Catholics believing in the ancien regime but very few want to underline that the Orthodox view of history is nothing but a piecemeal collage of moralising propaganda for Russian Imperialism. The theory of transmutation of Byzantium to Russia was invented to provide reasoning for the future conquests of China, Central Asia, India and Persia. Sadly the Orthodox are in reaction to the modern world, believing that the moralising imperialist spirituality of the 19th century is the authentic faith of Christ. This entrenchment not in theological Tradition but in historical propaganda prevents the Orthodox Church from claiming the allegiance of its faithful, who prefer faith healers and New Age to Christianity.

Imperialism is blind, is the moral of the story. The Byzantine Greek lust of power is not Christian in any way. The prospering civilisations which are destroyed by imperialist aggressors, are as we are told by the invaders, are either imaginery or temporary, for we must believe that the Empire shall last forever.(2)




1.
Quote
In 681 AD the Bulgars defeated the Byzantine army and united themselves with the Slavonic tribes against the Byzantines, founding the first Bulgarian state. This new state was governed by a khan with the help of Slavic and Bulgar princes. There was a period of assimilation for 200 years which created a nationality which took the name of the Bulgar but culturally was strongly influenced by Slavonic civilisation.
...
Khan Simeon defeated the Byzantine army at Aheloi in 917 which led to the annexation of Macedonia and Thrace. The reigns of Petar 1 (927-69) and Boris II (969-71) were marked by increasingly violent conflicts among the nobility. Byzantium also posed a constant threat. Religious unrest was also evident. Bulgarians began to question Christian teachings as they heard them in their own language. The Bogomils of Bulgaria were a religious sect who practised a radical dualistic doctrine, severe asceticism and imitation of the apostles' lives. The Kathari sect which spread to France and Italy developed out of this doctrine. A full-scale onslaught by Byzantium reduced the Bulgarian Kingdom to a rump known as the Western Kingdom which was ruled from Ohrid. Khan Samil was responsible for partly restoring the old kingdom until he died after the battle of Strumnitsa in 1014. Ohrid was captured in 1018 and the whole of Bulgaria became a Byzantine province.
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/index.htm
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In his Chronicle, the 12th-century Michael the Syrian, patriarch of the Syrian Jacobites, described the brutalities and atrocities of Nikephoros. "Nikephoros, emperor of the Romans, walked into the Bulgarians' land: he was victorious and killed great number of them. He reached their capital, seized it and devastated it. His savagery went to the point that he ordered to bring their small children, got them tied down on earth and made thresh grain stones to smash them."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krum


There is a question even today as to whether Macedonia should be considered Bulgarian or Greek territory, and as well there are those who say it should be independent.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 05:07:16 PM by stanley123 » Logged
stanley123
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« Reply #176 on: November 05, 2010, 05:05:41 PM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!
There can be no imposition of clerical celibacy in the eastern Catholic Churches except that which is willing accepted by their Metropolitans.
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Is that really true? I ask because I thougth that a while back, the metropolitans in the USA of the Ruthenian Church asked for a lifting of the mandatory celibacy rule for the USA and it was denied by the Vatican?
Yes. The Melkites just ignore the ban, as they cannot get it lifted.  The Maronites tried to lift it, and on the basis of one (1) bishop out of the Maronite episcopate, the Vatican denied it.

This is the reason why we are not fooled by what the Vatican says, especially to us.  We look at what it does, especially to its "sui juris" ecclesiastical communities.
Latinisation of the Eastern Catholic Churches does seem to be problematical and a legitimate question.
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« Reply #177 on: November 05, 2010, 05:55:27 PM »

Yes. The Melkites just ignore the ban, as they cannot get it lifted.  The Maronites tried to lift it, and on the basis of one (1) bishop out of the Maronite episcopate, the Vatican denied it.

This is the reason why we are not fooled by what the Vatican says, especially to us.  We look at what it does, especially to its "sui juris" ecclesiastical communities.

There is no ban to lift as the CCEO abrogated all previous legislation.  The previous ban applied only to the US, Canada, and Australia.  Further more the ban was not renewed when it expired in the 1950, the Eastern Catholic Churches simply kept obeying until the 80s, with Ukrainians and Melkites ordaining candidates in the US and Canada as well importing them from the old country.  The Ruthenian Metropolia is in a unique situation.  When the CCEO came out, each sui iuris Church was to promulgate particular law to complement it.  The original Ruthenian particular law codified that married men could again be ordained and this was approved by Rome.  One of our priests leaked this before the law was promulgated and Latin Catholic news sources ran with it portraying it as somekind of rebellion and Rome halted promulgation and we ended up with what we have now: we are supposed to submit married candidate to Rome for approval before ordination.  Supposedly this is being doen to prevent Latin men from transfering to our Church to get ordained.  But as I stated earlier, we shouldn't have to ask for approval or ask Rome to remain silent like we are doing something less than optimal, Rome should being giving this its full support.  Until it does you have every right to remain suspicious.
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