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Author Topic: Did the Roman Catholic Church sack Constantinople?  (Read 8145 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 02, 2010, 10:10:40 AM »

So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love.

I'm sure the Orthodox Christians raped and massacred by the Crusaders sympathize with you.  Get off your self-constructed moral high horse - the part of RCism that has diverged from Orthodoxy is the only thing attacked here, not RCs.

I see this brought up every so often; It sounds like Islamic rhetoric still used today. However, despite the fourth Crusade being a 1,000 year old event used to justify hate from the EOs against the RCs, the events are not what they are made out to be. The original intent was to take Jerusalem from the Muslims by way of Egypt, yet events were taken out of control from the hands of Pope Innocent III.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
Quote
The Hungarian king was Catholic and had himself agreed to join this Crusade (though this was mostly for political reasons, and he had made no actual preparations to leave). Many of the Crusaders were opposed to attacking Zara, and some, including a force led by the elder Simon de Montfort, refused to participate altogether and returned home. While the Papal legate to the Crusade Cardinal Peter of Capua endorsed the move as necessary to prevent the crusade's complete failure, Pope Innocent III was alarmed at this development and wrote a letter to the Crusading leadership threatening excommunication.[14]

Historian Geoffrey Hindley's The Crusades mentions that in 1202 Pope Innocent III forbade the Crusaders of Western Christendom from committing any atrocious acts on their Christian neighbours, despite wanting to secure papal authority over Byzantium.[15] This letter was concealed from the bulk of the army and the attack proceeded. The citizens of Zara made reference to the fact that they were fellow Catholics by hanging banners marked with crosses from their windows and the walls of the city, but nevertheless the city fell after a brief siege. When Innocent III heard of the sack he sent a letter to the crusaders excommunicating them, and ordered them to return to their holy vows and head for Jerusalem. Out of fear that this would dissolve the army the leaders of the crusade decided not to inform the army of this.

So no, the sack wasn't by the Church, but by a rogue Army lead by Princes', intent on getting their own political agenda fulfilled.  

  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 10:14:17 AM by Azurestone » Logged


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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2010, 10:16:28 AM »

You fail to understand that, to the Orthodox on the ground at that time, the actions of the Crusades in general and the Fourth Crusade in particular, were completely scandalous. One cannot simply brush off even something that got out of hand. While Pope Innocent III was appalled, the results of the Fourth Crusade remained, and the attitude of the Papacy toward the Eastern Churches did not change.
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2010, 10:17:39 AM »

Also, the Fourth Crusade is not used to "justify hatred of Roman Catholics," from the view of Orthodox. It is but one of many examples of how the West has not understood Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2010, 10:19:12 AM »

Fundamentally, it's really not about the pope, but about the actions of the Western Christians, and their attitudes--which were the very things which destroyed the Orthodox papacy in the first place, albeit in an attempt to reform.
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2010, 10:27:32 AM »

That's right!  Because remember, true Christians never, ever, EVER forgive or forget a sin committed against them OR their ancestors.  That's how you know you're dealing with a genuine follower of Christ, who, as you may recall, advised His followers NEVER to forgive their persecutors, but to exact revenge whenever possible - "unto ages of ages, Amen!"
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 10:30:57 AM »

That's right!  Because remember, true Christians never, ever, EVER forgive or forget a sin committed against them OR their ancestors.  That's how you know you're dealing with a genuine follower of Christ, who, as you may recall, advised His followers NEVER to forgive their persecutors, but to exact revenge whenever possible - "unto ages of ages, Amen!"

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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 10:32:18 AM »

You fail to understand that, to the Orthodox on the ground at that time, the actions of the Crusades in general and the Fourth Crusade in particular, were completely scandalous. One cannot simply brush off even something that got out of hand. While Pope Innocent III was appalled, the results of the Fourth Crusade remained, and the attitude of the Papacy toward the Eastern Churches did not change.

I don't "fail to understand" that. However, like many 'scandalous' things, both on the personal level, as well as the state level, events aren't always what they are perceived to be.

What attitude of the Papacy is that? That the EO Churches return to communion with the Pope?

Also, the Fourth Crusade is not used to "justify hatred of Roman Catholics," from the view of Orthodox. It is but one of many examples of how the West has not understood Orthodoxy.

How the 'West' has not understood Orthodoxy...?

Fundamentally, it's really not about the pope, but about the actions of the Western Christians, and their attitudes--which were the very things which destroyed the Orthodox papacy in the first place, albeit in an attempt to reform.

Western Christians... I see. "It's really not even about Catholicism... it's just that I don't like you."

Back to your first post, from a few minutes ago, the Fourth Crusade is a justification for your distaste for Roman Catholicism.
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2010, 10:33:12 AM »

That's right!  Because remember, true Christians never, ever, EVER forgive or forget a sin committed against them OR their ancestors.  That's how you know you're dealing with a genuine follower of Christ, who, as you may recall, advised His followers NEVER to forgive their persecutors, but to exact revenge whenever possible - "unto ages of ages, Amen!"

LOL, that's the way it appears, unfortunately.
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 11:11:50 AM »

There are two things here. First, the sack of Constantinople, which for whatever reasons, was a horror afflicted on the Christians of the East by Christians of the West. It is true that the Ottoman Turks sacked Constantinople and raped, pillaged and murdered for three days, as was the custom in those days (the same length of time as the Fourth Crusade), but the Turks were not fellow Christians and they did not set up a Latin Patriarchate but actually elevated the Patriarch of Constantinople to be the Etnarch of all Christians (but the Armenians) in their empire. So, you have fratricide in a sense, combined with horrific crimes and this sort of thing understandably tends to affect folks.

At least Pope Innocent III thought so: "How, indeed, will the church of the Greeks, no matter how severely she is beset with afflictions and persecutions, return into ecclesiastical union and to a devotion for the Apostolic See, when she has seen in the Latins only an example of perdition and the works of darkness, so that she now, and with reason, detests the Latins more than dogs? As for those who were supposed to be seeking the ends of Jesus Christ, not their own ends, who made their swords, which they were supposed to use against the pagans, drip with Christian blood, they have spared neither religion, nor age, nor sex. They have committed incest, adultery, and fornication before the eyes of men. They have exposed both matrons and virgins, even those dedicated to God, to the sordid lusts of boys. Not satisfied with breaking open the imperial treasury and plundering the goods of princes and lesser men, they also laid their hands on the treasures of the churches and, what is more serious, on their very possessions. They have even ripped silver plates from the altars and have hacked them to pieces among themselves. They violated the holy places and have carried off crosses and relics." It should be noted however that when the crusaders took the piles of money, jewels, and gold that they had captured in the sack of Constantinople back to Rome, Innocent III welcomed the stolen items and agreed to let the crusaders back into the Church.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade#Outcome

The second thing is that we must try to forgive this horror that occurred so many centuries ago. And, I think most Orthodox do not blame the current Roman Catholic Pope, bishops, priests or laity for this seminal event. What I think lingers on is the sense that the main problem with the West has been--before and after the Fourth Crusade--her claim of superiority and even primacy if you will. That is why the Fourth Crusade, the filioque clause, the added dogmas and divergent practices are all lumped together and viewed from the prism of the Papacy itself, which represents everything that has been and is wrong with the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 11:14:42 AM »

That's right!  Because remember, true Christians never, ever, EVER forgive or forget a sin committed against them OR their ancestors.  That's how you know you're dealing with a genuine follower of Christ, who, as you may recall, advised His followers NEVER to forgive their persecutors, but to exact revenge whenever possible - "unto ages of ages, Amen!"
Well...I don't know what you're talking about. I have seen nothing but forgiveness and charity since I've been on this forum.

</sarcasm>
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2010, 12:04:18 PM »

Well...I don't know what you're talking about. I have seen nothing but forgiveness and charity since I've been on this forum.

</sarcasm>


Forgiveness presupposes genuine repentance, or change of mind. No one here holds any Catholic responsible for anything that happened in the past, but the reality is, in its attitude towards the East the Latin Church has not changed its mind. That is made plainly manifest by not only your attitudes towards us, but most clearly by the treatment of your own Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2010, 12:11:03 PM »

So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love.

I'm sure the Orthodox Christians raped and massacred by the Crusaders sympathize with you.  Get off your self-constructed moral high horse - the part of RCism that has diverged from Orthodoxy is the only thing attacked here, not RCs.

I see this brought up every so often; It sounds like Islamic rhetoric still used today. However, despite the fourth Crusade being a 1,000 year old event used to justify hate from the EOs against the RCs, the events are not what they are made out to be. The original intent was to take Jerusalem from the Muslims by way of Egypt, yet events were taken out of control from the hands of Pope Innocent III.

I have to say, though based upon only anecdotal evidence, that this is simply not true. First of all, despite the sometimes heated rhetoric around oc.net, I have yet to hear any Orthodox say they hate RCs. Based on what I read on oc.net (always a dangerous practice, I know!), what most RCs don't "get" about the Orthodox is that they don't hate Catholics. They simply don't give it a thought. What they do think is that Catholics have got it wrong, but that's their business.

I have, however, seen quite a bit of rabid anti-Catholicism on the part of evangelicals and Southern Baptists. (this is in the buckle of the Bible Belt, so YMMV.)

(As far as the sack of Constantinople, it is an historical fact, but one which most non-Orthodox haven't a clue about. Like most of Christian history - the majority of people know very little about Christian history, and if they do, it's only from the Reformation onwards. Actually, to most people, except for a few history geeks, the history of Christianity is pretty much irrelevant.)

(Fwiw, my husband, who was raised RC, reports that his Baptist neighbors were concerned for his salvation, since Catholics were obviously not Christian. He also reports that he got an entirely different story about the Schism and the Crusades in parochial school than he found in history.)

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« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2010, 12:24:45 PM »

So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love.

I'm sure the Orthodox Christians raped and massacred by the Crusaders sympathize with you.  Get off your self-constructed moral high horse - the part of RCism that has diverged from Orthodoxy is the only thing attacked here, not RCs.

I see this brought up every so often; It sounds like Islamic rhetoric still used today. However, despite the fourth Crusade being a 1,000 year old event used to justify hate from the EOs against the RCs, the events are not what they are made out to be. The original intent was to take Jerusalem from the Muslims by way of Egypt, yet events were taken out of control from the hands of Pope Innocent III.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
Quote
The Hungarian king was Catholic and had himself agreed to join this Crusade (though this was mostly for political reasons, and he had made no actual preparations to leave). Many of the Crusaders were opposed to attacking Zara, and some, including a force led by the elder Simon de Montfort, refused to participate altogether and returned home. While the Papal legate to the Crusade Cardinal Peter of Capua endorsed the move as necessary to prevent the crusade's complete failure, Pope Innocent III was alarmed at this development and wrote a letter to the Crusading leadership threatening excommunication.[14]

Historian Geoffrey Hindley's The Crusades mentions that in 1202 Pope Innocent III forbade the Crusaders of Western Christendom from committing any atrocious acts on their Christian neighbours, despite wanting to secure papal authority over Byzantium.[15] This letter was concealed from the bulk of the army and the attack proceeded. The citizens of Zara made reference to the fact that they were fellow Catholics by hanging banners marked with crosses from their windows and the walls of the city, but nevertheless the city fell after a brief siege. When Innocent III heard of the sack he sent a letter to the crusaders excommunicating them, and ordered them to return to their holy vows and head for Jerusalem. Out of fear that this would dissolve the army the leaders of the crusade decided not to inform the army of this.

So no, the sack wasn't by the Church, but by a rogue Army lead by Princes', intent on getting their own political agenda fulfilled.  

The Vatican lost no time in profitting from it. The same Pope Innocent (what a misnomer!) III called a "ecumenical" council to "legitimize" the spoils.  Imposing a Latin Patriarchate on Constantinople, he finally formally accepted Constantinople as a Patriarchate and in second place, after it had moved to first place, due to Rome's apostasy.  The Vatican convened its so called 12th "Ecumenical" council of Lateran IV-which it has not repudiated-which stated:

Quote
3. On Heretics

We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy raising itself up against this holy, orthodox and catholic faith which we have expounded above [the Ultramontanist filioque faith]. We condemn all heretics, whatever names they may go under. They have different faces indeed but their tails are tied together inasmuch as they are alike in their pride. Let those condemned be handed over to the secular authorities present, or to their bailiffs, for due punishment. Clerics are first to be degraded from their orders. The goods of the condemned are to be confiscated, if they are lay persons, and if clerics they are to be applied to the churches from which they received their stipends. Those who are only found suspect of heresy are to be struck with the sword of anathema, unless they prove their innocence by an appropriate purgation, having regard to the reasons for suspicion and the character of the person. Let such persons be avoided by all until they have made adequate satisfaction. If they persist in the excommunication for a year, they are to be condemned as heretics. Let secular authorities, whatever offices they may be discharging, be advised and urged and if necessary be compelled by ecclesiastical censure, if they wish to be reputed and held to be faithful, to take publicly an oath for the defence of the faith to the effect that they will seek, in so far as they can, to expel from the lands subject to their jurisdiction all heretics designated by the church in good faith. Thus whenever anyone is promoted to spiritual or temporal authority, he shall be obliged to confirm this article with an oath. If however a temporal lord, required and instructed by the church, neglects to cleanse his territory of this heretical filth, he shall be bound with the bond of excommunication by the metropolitan and other bishops of the province. If he refuses to give satisfaction within a year, this shall be reported to the supreme pontiff so that he may then declare his vassals absolved from their fealty to him and make the land available for occupation by Catholics so that these may, after they have expelled the heretics, possess it unopposed and preserve it in the purity of the faith — saving the right of the suzerain provided that he makes no difficulty in the matter and puts no impediment in the way. The same law is to be observed no less as regards those who do not have a suzerain.

Catholics who take the cross and gird themselves up for the expulsion of heretics shall enjoy the same indulgence, and be strengthened by the same holy privilege, as is granted to those who go to the aid of the holy Land. Moreover, we determine to subject to excommunication believers who receive, defend or support heretics. We strictly ordain that if any such person, after he has been designated as excommunicated [and remeber, the bull of 1054 so designated the Orthodox Catholics], refuses to render satisfaction within a year, then by the law itself he shall be branded as infamous and not be admitted to public offices or councils or to elect others to the same or to give testimony. He shall be intestable, that is he shall not have the freedom to make a will nor shall succeed to an inheritance. Moreover nobody shall be compelled to answer to him on any business whatever, but he may be compelled to answer to them. If he is a judge sentences pronounced by him shall have no force and cases may not be brought before him; if an advocate, he may not be allowed to defend anyone; if a notary, documents drawn up by him shall be worthless and condemned along with their condemned author; and in similar matters we order the same to be observed. If however he is a cleric, let him be deposed from every office and benefice, so that the greater the fault the greater be the punishment. If any refuse to avoid such persons after they have been pointed out by the church, let them be punished with the sentence of excommunication until they make suitable satisfaction. Clerics should not, of course, give the sacraments of the church to such pestilent people nor give them a Christian burial nor accept alms or offerings from them; if they do, let them be deprived of their office and not restored to it without a special indult of the apostolic see. Similarly with regulars, let them be punished with losing their privileges in the diocese in which they presume to commit such excesses.

"There are some who holding to the form of religion but denying its power (as the Apostle says) , claim for themselves the authority to preach, whereas the same Apostle says, How shall they preach unless they are sent? Let therefore all those who have been forbidden or not sent to preach, and yet dare publicly or privately to usurp the office of preaching without having received the authority of the apostolic see or the catholic bishop of the place", be bound with the bond of excommunication and, unless they repent very quickly, be punished by another suitable penalty. We add further that each archbishop or bishop, either in person or through his archdeacon or through suitable honest persons, should visit twice or at least once in the year any parish of his in which heretics are said to live. There he should compel three or more men of good repute, or even if it seems expedient the whole neighbourhood, to swear that if anyone knows of heretics there or of any persons who hold secret conventicles or who differ in their life and habits from the normal way of living of the faithful, then he will take care to point them out to the bishop. The bishop himself should summon the accused to his presence, and they should be punished canonically if they are unable to clear themselves of the charge or if after compurgation they relapse into their former errors of faith. If however any of them with damnable obstinacy refuse to honour an oath and so will not take it, let them by this very fact be regarded as heretics. We therefore will and command and, in virtue of obedience, strictly command that bishops see carefully to the effective execution of these things throughout their dioceses, if they wish to avoid canonical penalties. If any bishop is negligent or remiss in cleansing his diocese of the ferment of heresy, then when this shows itself by unmistakeable signs he shall be deposed from his office as bishop and there shall be put in his place a suitable person who both wishes and is able to overthrow the evil of heresy

4. On the pride of the Greeks towards the Latins

Although we would wish to cherish and honour the Greeks who in our days are returning to the obedience of the apostolic see, by preserving their customs and rites as much as we can in the Lord, nevertheless we neither want nor ought to defer to them in matters which bring danger to souls and detract from the church's honour. For, after the Greek church together with certain associates and supporters withdrew from the obedience of the apostolic see, the Greeks began to detest the Latins so much that, among other wicked things which they committed out of contempt for them, when Latin priests celebrated on their altars they would not offer sacrifice on them until they had washed them, as if the altars had been defiled thereby. The Greeks even had the temerity to rebaptize those baptized by the Latins; and some, as we are told, still do not fear to do this. Wishing therefore to remove such a great scandal from God's church, we strictly order, on the advice of this sacred council, that henceforth they do not presume to do such things but rather conform themselves like obedient sons to the holy Roman church, their mother, so that there may be one flock and one shepherd. If anyone however does dare to do such a thing, let him be struck with the sword of excommunication and be deprived of every ecclesiastical office and benefice. [of course, the Orthodox Catholics did and continue to "dare to do such a thing."]

5. The dignity of the patriarchal sees

Renewing the ancient privileges of the patriarchal sees, we decree, with the approval of this sacred universal synod, that after the Roman church, which through the Lord's disposition has a primacy of ordinary power over all other churches inasmuch as it is the mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful, the church of Constantinople shall have the first place, the church of Alexandria the second place, the church of Antioch the third place, and the church of Jerusalem the fourth place, each maintaining its own rank. Thus after their pontiffs have received from the Roman pontiff the pallium, which is the sign of the fullness of the pontifical office, and have taken an oath of fidelity and obedience to him [no such thing ever happened from the time of the Apostles until the Crudaders came] they may lawfully confer the pallium on their own suffragans, receiving from them for themselves canonical profession and for the Roman church the promise of obedience. They may have a standard of the Lord's cross carried before them anywhere except in the city of Rome or wherever there is present the supreme pontiff or his legate wearing the insignia of the apostolic dignity. In all the provinces subject to their jurisdiction let appeal be made to them, when it is necessary, except for appeals made to the apostolic see, to which all must humbly defer.[dream on]

71. Crusade to recover the holy Land

It is our ardent desire to liberate the holy Land from infidel hands. We therefore declare, with the approval of this sacred council and on the advice of prudent men who are fully aware of the circumstances of time and place, that crusaders are to make themselves ready so that all who have arranged to go by sea shall assemble in the kingdom of Sicily on 1 June after next : some as necessary and fitting at Brindisi and others at Messina and places neighbouring it on either side, where we too have arranged to be in person at that time, God willing, so that with our advice and help the Christian army may be in good order to set out with divine and apostolic blessing. Those who have decided to go by land should also take care to be ready by the same date. They shall notify us meanwhile so that we may grant them a suitable legate a latere for advice and help. Priests and other clerics who will be in the Christian army, both those under authority and prelates, shall diligently devote themselves to prayer and exhortation, teaching the crusaders by word and example to have the fear and love of God always before their eyes, so that they say or do nothing that might offend the divine majesty. If they ever fall into sin, let them quickly rise up again through true penitence. Let them be humble in heart and in body, keeping to moderation both in food and in dress, avoiding altogether dissensions and rivalries, and putting aside entirely any bitterness or envy, so that thus armed with spiritual and material weapons they may the more fearlessly fight against the enemies of the faith, relying not on their own power but rather trusting in the strength of God. We grant to these clerics that they may receive the fruits of their benefices in full for three years, as if they were resident in the churches, and if necessary they may leave them in pledge for the same time.

To prevent this holy proposal being impeded or delayed, we strictly order all prelates of churches, each in his own locality, diligently to warn and induce those who have abandoned the cross to resume it, and them and others who have taken up the cross, and those who may still do so, to carry out their vows to the Lord. And if necessary they shall compel them to do this without any backsliding, by sentences of excommunication against their persons and of interdict on their lands, excepting only those persons who find themselves faced with an impediment of such a kind that their vow deservedly ought to be commuted or deferred in accordance with the directives of the apostolic see. In order that nothing connected with this business of Jesus Christ be omitted, we will and order patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, abbots and others who have the care of souls to preach the cross zealously to those entrusted to them. Let them beseech kings, dukes, princes, margraves, counts, barons and other magnates, as well as the communities of cities, vills and towns — in the name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit, the one, only, true and eternal God — that those who do not go in person to the aid of the holy Land should contribute, according to their means, an appropriate number of fighting men together with their necessary expenses for three years, for the remission of their sins in accordance with what has already been explained in general letters and will be explained below for still greater assurance. We wish to share in this remission not only those who contribute ships of their own but also those who are zealous enough to build them for this purpose. To those who refuse, if there happen to be any who are so ungrateful to our lord God, we firmly declare in the name of the apostle that they should know that they will have to answer to us for this on the last day of final judgment before the fearful judge.

In other words, THE SWORD THAT ST. PETER PUT INTO THE SHEATH AT THE LORD'S COMMAND, POPE INNOCENT III ON HIS OWN COMMAND PICKED UP AND SWUNG, AND SWUNG HARD.

Quote
Let them consider beforehand, however with what conscience and with what security it was that they were able to confess before the only-begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ, to whom the Father gave all things into his hands, if in this business, which is as it were peculiarly his, they refuse to serve him who was crucified for sinners, by whose beneficence they are sustained and indeed by whose blood they have been redeemed.

Lest we appear to be laying on men's shoulders heavy and unbearable burdens which we are not willing to lighten, like those who say yes but do nothing behold we, from what we have been able to save over and above necessities and moderate expenses, grant and give thirty thousand pounds to this work, besides the shipping which we are giving to the crusaders of Rome and neighbouring districts. We will assign for this purpose, moreover, three thousand marks of silver, which we have left over from the alms of certain of the faithful, the rest having been faithfully distributed for the needs and benefit of the aforesaid Land by the hands of the abbot patriarch of Jerusalem, of happy memory, and of the masters of the Temple and of the Hospital. We wish, however, that other prelates of churches and all clerics may participate and share both in the merit and in the reward. We therefore decree, with the general approval of the council, that all clerics, both those under authority and prelates, shall give a twentieth of their ecclesiastical revenues for three years to the aid of the holy Land, by means of the persons appointed by the apostolic see for this purpose; the only exceptions being certain religious who are rightly to be exempted from this taxation and likewise those persons who have taken or will take the cross and so will go in person. We and our brothers, cardinals of the holy Roman church, shall pay a full tenth. Let all know, moreover, that they are obliged to observe this faithfully under pain of excommunication, so that those who knowingly deceive in this matter shall incur the sentence of excommunication. Because it is right that those who persevere in the service of the heavenly ruler should in all justice enjoy special privilege, and because the day of departure is somewhat more than a year ahead, crusaders shall therefore be. exempt from taxes or levies and other burdens. We take their persons and goods under the protection of St Peter and ourself once they have taken up the cross. We ordain that they are to be protected by archbishops, bishops and all prelates of the church, and that protectors of their own are to be specially appointed for this purpose, so that their goods are to remain intact and undisturbed until they are known for certain to be dead or to have returned. If anyone dares to act contrary to this, let him be curbed by ecclesiastical censure.

If any of those setting out are bound by oath to pay interest, we ordain that their creditors shall be compelled by the same punishment to release them from their oath and to desist from exacting the interest; if any of the creditors does force them to pay the interest, we command that he be forced by similar punishment to restore it. We order that Jews be compelled by the secular power to remit interest, and that until they do so all intercourse shall be denied them by all Christ's faithful under pain of excommunication. Secular princes shall provide a suitable deferral for those who cannot now pay their debts to Jews, so that after they have undertaken the journey and until there is certain knowledge of their death or of their return, they shall not incur the inconvenience of paying interest. The Jews shall be compelled to add to the capital, after they have deducted their necessary expenses, the revenues which they are meanwhile receiving from property held by them on security. For, such a benefit seems to entail not much loss, inasmuch as it postpones the repayment but does not cancel the debt. Prelates of churches who are negligent in showing justice to crusaders and their families should know that they will be severely punished.

Furthermore, since corsairs and pirates greatly impede help for the holy Land, by capturing and plundering those who are travelling to and from it, we bind with the bond of excommunication everyone who helps or supports them. We forbid anyone, under threat of anathema, knowingly to communicate with them by contracting to buy or to sell; and we order rulers of cities and their territories to restrain and curb such persons from this iniquity. Otherwise, since to be unwilling to disquiet evildoers is none other than to encourage them, and since he who fails to oppose a manifest crime is not without a touch of secret complicity, it is our wish and command that prelates of churches exercise ecclesiastical severity against their persons and lands. We excommunicate and anathematize, moreover, those false and impious Christians who, in opposition to Christ and the Christian people, convey arms to the Saracens and iron and timber for their galleys. We decree that those who sell them galleys or ships, and those who act as pilots in pirate Saracen ships, or give them any advice or help by way of machines or anything else, to the detriment of the holy Land, are to be punished with deprivation of their possessions and are to become the slaves of those who capture them. We order this sentence to be renewed on Sundays and feast-days in all maritime towns; and the bosom of the church is not to be opened to such persons unless they send in aid of the holy Land the whole of the damnable wealth which they received and the same amount of their own, so that they are punished in proportion to their offence. If perchance they do not pay, they are to be punished in other ways in order that through their punishment others may be deterred from venturing upon similar rash actions. In addition, we prohibit and on pain of anathema forbid all Christians, for four years, to send or take their ships across to the lands of the Saracens who dwell in the east, so that by this a greater supply of shipping may be made ready for those wanting to cross over to help the holy Land, and so that the aforesaid Saracens may be deprived of the not inconsiderable help which they have been accustomed to receiving from this.

Although tournaments have been forbidden in a general way on pain of a fixed penalty at various councils, we strictly forbid them to be held for three years, under pain of excommunication, because the business of the crusade is much hindered by them at this present time. Because it is of the utmost necessity for the carrying out of this business that rulers of the Christian people keep peace with each other, we therefore ordain, on the advice of this holy general synod, that peace be generally kept in the whole Christian world for at least four years, so that those in conflict shall be brought by the prelates of churches to conclude a definitive peace or to observe inviolably a firm truce. Those who refuse to comply shall be most strictly compelled to do so by an excommunication against their persons and an interdict on their lands, unless their wrongdoing is so great that they ought not to enjoy peace. If it happens that they make light of the church's censure, they may deservedly fear that the secular power will be invoked by ecclesiastical authority against them as disturbers of the business of him who was crucified.

[Pope Innocent III thinking Christ the Redeemer was Christ the butcher].

We therefore, trusting in the mercy of almighty God and in the authority of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, do grant, by the power of binding and loosing that God has conferred upon us, albeit unworthy, unto all those who undertake this work in person and at their own expense, full pardon for their sins about which they are heartily contrite and have spoken in confession, and we promise them an increase of eternal life at the recompensing of the just; also to those who do not go there in person but send suitable men at their own expense, according to their means and status, and likewise to those who go in person but at others' expense, we grant full pardon for their sins. We wish and grant to share in this remission, according to the quality of their help and the intensity of their devotion, all who shall contribute suitably from their goods to the aid of the said Land or who give useful advice and help. Finally, this general synod imparts the benefit of its blessings to all who piously set out on this common enterprise in order that it may contribute worthily to their salvation.
http://www.legionofmarytidewater.com/faith/ECUM12.HTM#67

Rather than turnign from the sack of Constantinople, the Vatican then later convened its so called 13th "ecumenical" council of Lyons I, with its Latin emperor and its Latin patriarchs it imposed (Alexandria and Jerusalem, however, being outside the Crusaders reach) in session to try to solidify Crusader control when the armies of the Orthodox sovereigns laid seige to Constatinople to retake her and place the Orthodox EP in exile back on the cathedra of SS. Andrew, Gregory Nazianzus, John Chrysostom and Photios:

Quote
2. {47} On help for the empire of Constantinople

Though we are engaged in difficult matters and distracted by manifold anxieties, yet among those things which demand our constant attention is the liberation of the empire of Constantinople. [the armies of the Orthodox had surrounded the capital] This we desire with our whole heart, this is ever the object of our thoughts. Yet though the apostolic see has eagerly sought a remedy on its behalf by earnest endeavour and many forms of assistance, though for long Catholics have striven by grievous toils, by burdensome expense, by care, sweat, tears and bloodshed, yet the hand that extended such aid could not wholly, hindered by sin, snatch the empire from the yoke of the enemy [i.e. the Orthodox]. Thus not without cause we are troubled with grief. But because the body of the church would be shamefully deformed by the lack of a loved member, namely the aforesaid empire [that it calls the empire, rather than the patriarchate, a member of the church is telling], and be sadly weakened and suffer loss; and because it could rightly be assigned to our sloth and that of the church, if it were deprived of the support of the faithful, and left to be freely oppressed by its enemies; we firmly propose to come to the help of the empire with swift and effective aid. Thus at the same time as the church eagerly rises to its assistance and stretches out the hand of defence, the empire can be saved from the dominion of its foes, and be brought back by the Lord's guidance to the unity of that same body, and may feel after the crushing hammer of its enemies the consoling hand of the church its mother, and after the blindness of error regain its sight by the possession of the catholic faith [the surrounding armies, not the Crusaders, professed the Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church]. It is the more fitting that prelates of churches and other ecclesiastics should be watchful and diligent for its liberation, and bestow their help and assistance, the more they are bound to work for the increase of the faith and of ecclesiastical liberty, which could chiefly come about from the liberation of the empire; and especially because while the empire is helped, assistance is consequently rendered to the holy Land.

Indeed, so that the help to the empire may be speedy and useful, we decree, with the general approval of the council, that half of all incomes of dignities parsonages and ecclesiastical prebends, and of other benefices of ecclesiastics who do not personally reside in them for at least six months, whether they hold one or more, shall be assigned in full for three years to the help of the said empire, having been collected by those designated by the apostolic see. Those are exempt who are employed in our service or in that of our brother cardinals and of their prelates, those who are on pilgrimages or in schools, or engaged in the business of their own churches at their direction, and those who have or will take up the badge of the cross for the aid of the holy Land or who will set out in person to the help of the said empire; but if any of these, apart from the crusaders and those setting out, receive from ecclesiastical revenues more than a hundred silver marks, they should pay a third part of the remainder in each of the three years. This is to be observed notwithstanding any customs or statutes of churches to the contrary, or any indulgences granted by the apostolic see to these churches or persons, confirmed by oath or any other means. And if by chance in this matter any shall knowingly be guilty of any deceit, they shall incur the sentence of excommunication.

We ourselves, from the revenues of the church of Rome, after first deducting a tenth from them to be assigned to the aid of the holy Land, will assign a tenth part in full for the support of the said empire. Further, when help is given to the empire, assistance is given in a very particular way and directed to the recovery of the holy Land, while we are striving for the liberation of the empire itself. Thus trusting in the mercy of almighty God and the authority of his blessed apostles Peter and Paul, from the power of binding and loosing which he conferred upon us though unworthy, we grant pardon of their sins to all those who come to the help of the said empire, and we desire they may enjoy that privilege and immunity which is granted to those who come to the help of the holy Land.
http://www.legionofmarytidewater.com/faith/ECUM13.HTM#202

This council had not been repudiated by the Vatican.  So the heirs of Nero, speaking ex cathedra, can stop protesting their "innocence."  

The Crusaders, when they sacked Constantinople, placed a prostitute (literally) on the throne of SS. Andrew, Gregory Nazianzus, John Chrysostom and Photios.  We need no love from the whores of Rome.
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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2010, 12:25:05 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2010, 12:27:45 PM »

So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love.

I'm sure the Orthodox Christians raped and massacred by the Crusaders sympathize with you.  Get off your self-constructed moral high horse - the part of RCism that has diverged from Orthodoxy is the only thing attacked here, not RCs.

I see this brought up every so often; It sounds like Islamic rhetoric still used today. However, despite the fourth Crusade being a 1,000 year old event used to justify hate from the EOs against the RCs, the events are not what they are made out to be. The original intent was to take Jerusalem from the Muslims by way of Egypt, yet events were taken out of control from the hands of Pope Innocent III.

I have to say, though based upon only anecdotal evidence, that this is simply not true. First of all, despite the sometimes heated rhetoric around oc.net, I have yet to hear any Orthodox say they hate RCs. Based on what I read on oc.net (always a dangerous practice, I know!), what most RCs don't "get" about the Orthodox is that they don't hate Catholics. They simply don't give it a thought. What they do think is that Catholics have got it wrong, but that's their business.

I have, however, seen quite a bit of rabid anti-Catholicism on the part of evangelicals and Southern Baptists. (this is in the buckle of the Bible Belt, so YMMV.)

(As far as the sack of Constantinople, it is an historical fact, but one which most non-Orthodox haven't a clue about. Like most of Christian history - the majority of people know very little about Christian history, and if they do, it's only from the Reformation onwards. Actually, to most people, except for a few history geeks, the history of Christianity is pretty much irrelevant.)

(Fwiw, my husband, who was raised RC, reports that his Baptist neighbors were concerned for his salvation, since Catholics were obviously not Christian. He also reports that he got an entirely different story about the Schism and the Crusades in parochial school than he found in history.)



YMMV?
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« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2010, 12:29:43 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?

We're talking about some occasional gripes on an internet discussion board. A little bit of perspective please?
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2010, 12:30:53 PM »

Well...I don't know what you're talking about. I have seen nothing but forgiveness and charity since I've been on this forum.

</sarcasm>


Forgiveness presupposes genuine repentance, or change of mind. No one here holds any Catholic responsible for anything that happened in the past, but the reality is, in its attitude towards the East the Latin Church has not changed its mind. That is made plainly manifest by not only your attitudes towards us, but most clearly by the treatment of your own Eastern Catholics.
Indeed. Let the Vatican repudiate its Lateran IV and Lyons I.
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2010, 12:32:04 PM »

YMMV?


"your mileage may vary," if that's what you were asking.  Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2010, 12:32:55 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?


That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2010, 12:34:38 PM »

Everyone knows that I and the others Catholics here at OC.net are the ones who sacked Constantinople.
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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2010, 12:35:00 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?


That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
bologna
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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2010, 12:35:59 PM »

bologna

Pastrami.
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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2010, 12:36:20 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?

We're talking about some occasional gripes on an internet discussion board. A little bit of perspective please?

Yes, I've been somewhat surprised by the tone from RC posters here. Granted things can get a little heated, but it is a discussion/debate after all. (Although having grown up in a family that often functioned like the American branch of the Oxford Debating Society, only a whole lot rougher, my standards for civil debate may be a little different.)

Anyhow, IMHO, it's not about forgiving or not forgiving, we just think you're wrong - that's all.
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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2010, 12:37:21 PM »

Everyone knows that I and the others Catholics here at OC.net are the ones who sacked Constantinople.

Get over yourselves. I say this with love. Wink
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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2010, 12:38:28 PM »

bologna


Shall I list all of the Latin offenses against your very own Eastern Catholics that demonstrates the attitude is still there?
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2010, 12:39:48 PM »

You fail to understand that, to the Orthodox on the ground at that time, the actions of the Crusades in general and the Fourth Crusade in particular, were completely scandalous. One cannot simply brush off even something that got out of hand. While Pope Innocent III was appalled, the results of the Fourth Crusade remained, and the attitude of the Papacy toward the Eastern Churches did not change.
Indeed!

And when the time came to divide the spoils, the supreme pontiff Innocent III went to the head of the line.

I think it was Schmemann who pointed out that it was the Fourth Crusade which brought Ultramontanism home.  Since no EP ever received the pallium from any Pope of Rome, as the supreme pontiff demanded and canonized in the "ecumenical" council-never repudiated by the Vatican-he called to legitimize the sack and implement its Ultramontanist attitude, the Orthodox at the capital didn't know what Ultramontanism meant until the Crusaders taught them.
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2010, 12:42:41 PM »

bologna


Shall I list all of the Latin offenses against your very own Eastern Catholics that demonstrates the attitude is still there?
It's stupid to suggest that just because we believe that the Catholic Church is superior to the Eastern Orthodox Church, that such necessarily leads to mistreatment of EOs. You guys believe the same thing about your Church (that it is superior to ours) and yet you don't think that it necessarily leads to persecution of Catholics.
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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2010, 12:45:37 PM »

"Uncle".

Sorry.
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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2010, 12:47:18 PM »

YMMV?


"your mileage may vary," if that's what you were asking.  Smiley

Yes, thank you.

our friends have reset the spedometer, and think we haven't noticed that, nor that we can see that the clunker has more mileage than what the odometer now says.

Let the supreme Pontiff reign supreme over Vatican city, and leave the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church alone.
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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2010, 12:48:34 PM »

bologna


Shall I list all of the Latin offenses against your very own Eastern Catholics that demonstrates the attitude is still there?
It's stupid to suggest that just because we believe that the Catholic Church is superior to the Eastern Orthodox Church, that such necessarily leads to mistreatment of EOs. You guys believe the same thing about your Church (that it is superior to ours) and yet you don't think that it necessarily leads to persecution of Catholics.


Did you even read the post you were responding to?  Huh
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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2010, 12:49:03 PM »

bologna


Shall I list all of the Latin offenses against your very own Eastern Catholics that demonstrates the attitude is still there?
It's stupid to suggest that just because we believe that the Catholic Church is superior to the Eastern Orthodox Church, that such necessarily leads to mistreatment of EOs. You guys believe the same thing about your Church (that it is superior to ours) and yet you don't think that it necessarily leads to persecution of Catholics.
LOL. Because by and large, it hasn't. The history of the Vatican shows a consitent, other story.
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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2010, 12:49:41 PM »

bologna


Shall I list all of the Latin offenses against your very own Eastern Catholics that demonstrates the attitude is still there?
It's stupid to suggest that just because we believe that the Catholic Church is superior to the Eastern Orthodox Church, that such necessarily leads to mistreatment of EOs. You guys believe the same thing about your Church (that it is superior to ours) and yet you don't think that it necessarily leads to persecution of Catholics.


Did you even read the post you were responding to?  Huh
Don't confuse Papist with the facts.

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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2010, 12:50:01 PM »

Everyone knows that I and the others Catholics here at OC.net are the ones who sacked Constantinople.

Get over yourselves. I say this with love. Wink

I would, but the biggest dangers is that Wyatt and I are gonna sack constantinople again. I mean, as Catholics, its just boiling up in our  blood. We can't control ourselves.... Oh no... losing... control... must... no can't... no must...sack... Con...stan...tinople....ahhh brains!!! Need Constantinoplian brains!!!  laugh
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« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2010, 01:02:06 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?


That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did. It's cute how you all think it is appropriate to bring it up, but then when we talk about forgiveness you all claim that you are not really mad about it anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?
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« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2010, 01:03:56 PM »

I can't remember whether I sacked Istanbul or Constantinople. Wink
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« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2010, 01:08:53 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?


That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did. It's cute how you all think it is appropriate to bring it up, but then when we talk about forgiveness you all claim that you are not really mad about it anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?

Having been forced fed the Ultramontanist poisoned cake, we know what is in it. And yet the Vatican complains we don't come over for coffee and cake.  That is it: no matter how much icing has been put on that cake since Vatican II, we know it's the same cake moldering underneath. Take your cake and eat it too. We're fine with the Bread Who came down from heaven.
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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2010, 01:10:04 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?


That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did. It's cute how you all think it is appropriate to bring it up, but then when we talk about forgiveness you all claim that you are not really mad about it anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?


What argument did someone try to make? You called all Orthodox Christians unloving and Fr George made a retort. So first you act like an ass yesterday and now criticize us for being unforgiving. You need to get a grip my friend.
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« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2010, 01:10:19 PM »

Everyone knows that I and the others Catholics here at OC.net are the ones who sacked Constantinople.

Get over yourselves. I say this with love. Wink

I would, but the biggest dangers is that Wyatt and I are gonna sack constantinople again. I mean, as Catholics, its just boiling up in our  blood. We can't control ourselves.... Oh no... losing... control... must... no can't... no must...sack... Con...stan...tinople....ahhh brains!!! Need Constantinoplian brains!!!  laugh
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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2010, 01:17:20 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?


That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did. It's cute how you all think it is appropriate to bring it up, but then when we talk about forgiveness you all claim that you are not really mad about it anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?

Having been forced fed the Ultramontanist poisoned cake, we know what is in it. And yet the Vatican complains we don't come over for coffee and cake.  That is it: no matter how much icing has been put on that cake since Vatican II, we know it's the same cake moldering underneath. Take your cake and eat it too. We're fine with the Bread Who came down from heaven.
So, back to the original point, do you believe that the blood of the sack of Constantinople is on modern day RC's hands or not?


Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?


That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did. It's cute how you all think it is appropriate to bring it up, but then when we talk about forgiveness you all claim that you are not really mad about it anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?



What argument did someone try to make? You called all Orthodox Christians unloving and Fr George made a retort. So first you act like an ass yesterday and now criticize us for being unforgiving. You need to get a grip my friend.
Well it is a poor argument on Fr. George's part. I point out that a large majority of EOs are hateful to RCs now in the present (which one only has to look at some of the posts on this forum to realize), and he backtracks and tries to rehash something that some RCs did hundreds of years ago. Grasp at straws much?
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« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2010, 01:26:22 PM »

[ Comments edited out for uncharitableness. Mea culpa. ]

 
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« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2010, 01:37:03 PM »

Everyone knows that I and the others Catholics here at OC.net are the ones who sacked Constantinople.

Get over yourselves. I say this with love. Wink

I would, but the biggest dangers is that Wyatt and I are gonna sack constantinople again. I mean, as Catholics, its just boiling up in our  blood. We can't control ourselves.... Oh no... losing... control... must... no can't... no must...sack... Con...stan...tinople....ahhh brains!!! Need Constantinoplian brains!!!  laugh

It's about that time again. Eh, chaps?


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« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2010, 01:43:28 PM »

Isa,

The point I'm making is it wasn't the desire of the Church to make any military move after Constantinople. I'll admit, after the deed was done, the Pope used the current situation to the Catholic Church advantage. Probably knowing, without means of communication beyond foot, trying to reconcile what had been done and then moving forward with unification would be that much harder. As you can see, the event hasn't been forgotten even 800 years later.
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« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2010, 01:48:12 PM »

Isa,

The point I'm making is it wasn't the desire of the Church to make any military move after Constantinople. I'll admit, after the deed was done, the Pope used the current situation to the Catholic Church advantage. Probably knowing, without means of communication beyond foot, trying to reconcile what had been done and then moving forward with unification would be that much harder. As you can see, the event hasn't been forgotten even 800 years later.


And as had been explained, there is a reason it hasn't been forgotten. The event epitomizes a Latin attitude that persists to this day. Just look at how the Vatican treats its fellow Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2010, 01:49:24 PM »

Isa,

The point I'm making is it wasn't the desire of the Church to make any military move after Constantinople. I'll admit, after the deed was done, the Pope used the current situation to the Catholic Church advantage. Probably knowing, without means of communication beyond foot, trying to reconcile what had been done and then moving forward with unification would be that much harder. As you can see, the event hasn't been forgotten even 800 years later.


And as had been explained, there is a reason it hasn't been forgotten. The event epitomizes a Latin attitude that persists to this day. Just look at how the Vatican treats its fellow Eastern Catholics.
You mean by asking them to return to their Eastern Traditions? How aweful. Bad! Bad Vatican!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2010, 01:51:52 PM »

You mean by asking them to return to their Eastern Traditions? How aweful. Bad! Bad Vatican!  Roll Eyes


Just the fact that they have to return to them proves my point.
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« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2010, 01:52:34 PM »

You mean by asking them to return to their Eastern Traditions? How aweful. Bad! Bad Vatican!  Roll Eyes


Just the fact that they have to return to them proves my point.
And the fact that they are being encouraged to be Eastern disproves  your point. So which is it? lol
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« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2010, 01:53:28 PM »

I have to say, though based upon only anecdotal evidence, that this is simply not true. First of all, despite the sometimes heated rhetoric around oc.net, I have yet to hear any Orthodox say they hate RCs. Based on what I read on oc.net (always a dangerous practice, I know!), what most RCs don't "get" about the Orthodox is that they don't hate Catholics. They simply don't give it a thought. What they do think is that Catholics have got it wrong, but that's their business.

You may not see it as an Orthodox, but being that a few Catholics and a non-Catholic see the smoke, don't you suppose there might be something there?

I have, however, seen quite a bit of rabid anti-Catholicism on the part of evangelicals and Southern Baptists. (this is in the buckle of the Bible Belt, so YMMV.)

They hate everyone that's not Baptist. Especially RCs and EO, if the even know what an EO is.

(As far as the sack of Constantinople, it is an historical fact, but one which most non-Orthodox haven't a clue about. Like most of Christian history - the majority of people know very little about Christian history, and if they do, it's only from the Reformation onwards. Actually, to most people, except for a few history geeks, the history of Christianity is pretty much irrelevant.)

It's not just Christian history that people are ignorant, quite a few people can't find Iran on a map for current events.

(Fwiw, my husband, who was raised RC, reports that his Baptist neighbors were concerned for his salvation, since Catholics were obviously not Christian. He also reports that he got an entirely different story about the Schism and the Crusades in parochial school than he found in history.)

I grew up in a Catholic school. I can't say the history was falsified in my case, however you can expect the point of view to be Catholic. It is a Catholic school afterall.
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« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2010, 01:54:55 PM »

Isa,

The point I'm making is it wasn't the desire of the Church to make any military move after Constantinople. I'll admit, after the deed was done, the Pope used the current situation to the Catholic Church advantage. Probably knowing, without means of communication beyond foot, trying to reconcile what had been done and then moving forward with unification would be that much harder. As you can see, the event hasn't been forgotten even 800 years later.

And as had been explained, there is a reason it hasn't been forgotten. The event epitomizes a Latin attitude that persists to this day. Just look at how the Vatican treats its fellow Eastern Catholics.

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.
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« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2010, 01:59:54 PM »

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?


That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did. It's cute how you all think it is appropriate to bring it up, but then when we talk about forgiveness you all claim that you are not really mad about it anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?

Having been forced fed the Ultramontanist poisoned cake, we know what is in it. And yet the Vatican complains we don't come over for coffee and cake.  That is it: no matter how much icing has been put on that cake since Vatican II, we know it's the same cake moldering underneath. Take your cake and eat it too. We're fine with the Bread Who came down from heaven.
So, back to the original point, do you believe that the blood of the sack of Constantinople is on modern day RC's hands or not?

Quote
UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302)

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks
i.e. the Orthodox Catholics
Quote
or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

The blood of the sack of Constantinople is on that sword, and any hand that lays claim to the authority that issued Unam Sanctam.

Paisius - when Jesus forgave His executioners, had they shown any signs of genuine repentance?
That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did. It's cute how you all think it is appropriate to bring it up, but then when we talk about forgiveness you all claim that you are not really mad about it anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?
What argument did someone try to make? You called all Orthodox Christians unloving and Fr George made a retort. So first you act like an ass yesterday and now criticize us for being unforgiving. You need to get a grip my friend.
Well it is a poor argument on Fr. George's part. I point out that a large majority of EOs are hateful to RCs now in the present (which one only has to look at some of the posts on this forum to realize), and he backtracks and tries to rehash something that some RCs did hundreds of years ago. Grasp at straws much?
No, we let you have them for your strawman.

Repudiate the definitions of Lateran IV and Lyons I.  If the "RC's now in the present," hold to those councils as "ecumenical," that isn't something "RCs did hundreds of years ago." Btw, some find fault and insult where is none, and expect us to act on their "feelings" rather than the facts.
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« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2010, 02:04:16 PM »

You mean by asking them to return to their Eastern Traditions? How aweful. Bad! Bad Vatican!  Roll Eyes


Just the fact that they have to return to them proves my point.
And the fact that they are being encouraged to be Eastern disproves  your point. So which is it? lol


Take a look at this story on a recent Eastern Catholic synod in the Middle East.


Quote
Rome - Ferment around defending the heritage and prerogatives of the Eastern Catholic churches continues to swirl at the Oct. 10-24 Synod of Bishops for the Middle East, as yesterday a Lebanese prelate proposed launching a Vatican commission to study ways of revitalizing the office of Patriarch.

In broad strokes, Eastern bishops typically have two reasons for wanting to emphasize the role of the patriarchs. Internally, it’s an argument for greater collegiality, or shared decision- making, in Catholicism, as a corrective to what is perceived as excessive papal power; externally, it’s a way of giving the patriarch a higher international profile as a way of insulating their flocks in the Middle East against possible pressures and attacks.


Link


Talks of excessive papal power, "taking" back their historical prerogatives and having to go through the Roman Curia to do it. Couple that with Eastern bishops being made cardinals in the Latin Church and the need for a Congregation for the Oriental Churches and I think my point stands.  Wink
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« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2010, 02:06:19 PM »

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.


No, just looking at recent historical facts and the conditions as they exist today.
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« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2010, 02:06:34 PM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.
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« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2010, 02:07:11 PM »

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.


No, just looking at recent historical facts and the conditions as they exist today.
Yeah, you are projecting your angry anti-latin attitude. It's not very becoming.
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« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2010, 02:09:42 PM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.


And the Eastern Catholics had theirs until it was suppressed by the Latin Church. If that is not the case why the need to "return to their Eastern Traditions" as you say and why have a synod to "take back" their traditional prerogatives from "excessive papal power"?  Cool
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« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2010, 02:12:42 PM »

There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did.

You obviously missed the point; something that has happened more than once in the other thread where my comment came up.  You can't use a ridiculous statement like, "So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love," and not be called out for it.  An assertion like that falls flat on its face in hundreds of ways borne out in hundreds of years of history - history which you're not liable for, IMO, but which you must bear if you're going to put, "So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love," out there as your rallying cry.  As I've mentioned before: get off your self-imagined moral high horse and deal with reality - and the issues - as they're presented.
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« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2010, 02:13:51 PM »

Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?

Neither. That's the problem with your thinking. It only allows for two opinions. Both of which are silly.

The sacking of Constantinople by Latin Catholics while on a religious crusade sanctioned and promoted by the same Church, in whole or in part, is a fact. It happened. That the Latin Church benefited from the sacking, at least monetarily, is also a fact.

And if you think that the Sack of Constantinople or Orthodox anger over it or inability to forgive is the only thing keeping the two Churches apart, as I said, you simply don't get it.

You're just wrong.
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« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2010, 02:15:05 PM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.


And the Eastern Catholics had theirs until it was suppressed by the Latin Church. If that is not the case why the need to "return to their Eastern Traditions" as you say and why have a synod to "take back" their traditional prerogatives from "excessive papal power"?  Cool
But in our ecclesiology, they are not oppressed, because in our ecclesiology, they must submitt to Rome.
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« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2010, 02:16:30 PM »

I have to say, though based upon only anecdotal evidence, that this is simply not true. First of all, despite the sometimes heated rhetoric around oc.net, I have yet to hear any Orthodox say they hate RCs. Based on what I read on oc.net (always a dangerous practice, I know!), what most RCs don't "get" about the Orthodox is that they don't hate Catholics. They simply don't give it a thought. What they do think is that Catholics have got it wrong, but that's their business.

You may not see it as an Orthodox, but being that a few Catholics and a non-Catholic see the smoke, don't you suppose there might be something there?

Not necessarily. Are only the Orthodox unaware of their own blind spots and sensitivities?

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« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2010, 02:16:44 PM »

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.


No, just looking at recent historical facts and the conditions as they exist today.
Yeah, you are projecting your angry anti-latin attitude. It's not very becoming.


And you're demonstrating your inability to have a discussion without resorting to ad hominen attacks on those who disagree with you. It's a typical tactic of some internet Roman Catholics who, when faced with facts that contradict their insular world view, stick their fingers in their ears and claim anti-Catholicism. If you're argument is so strong why not just stick to the facts?
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« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2010, 02:18:07 PM »

But in our ecclesiology, they are not oppressed, because in our ecclesiology, they must submitt to Rome.

Are you so sure that really is their ecclesiology?
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« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2010, 02:18:32 PM »

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.


No, just looking at recent historical facts and the conditions as they exist today.
Yeah, you are projecting your angry anti-latin attitude. It's not very becoming.


And you're demonstrating your inability to have a discussion without resorting to ad hominen attacks on those who disagree with you. It's a typical tactic of some internet Roman Catholics who, when faced with facts that contradict their insular world view, stick their fingers in their ears and claim anti-Catholicism. If you're argument is so strong why not just stick to the facts?
You are engaging in ad hominem attacks.  Grin
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« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2010, 02:18:47 PM »

But in our ecclesiology, they are not oppressed, because in our ecclesiology, they must submitt to Rome.

Are you so sure that really is their ecclesiology?
It's Catholic ecclesiology.
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« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2010, 02:18:58 PM »

That is a red herring. First of all there is nothing for me or any other Orthodox to forgive for an event that happened centuries ago. Second, how could we pretend to call ourselves Christians if we weren't prepared to forgive any offense towards us? This is not about forgiveness, it's about the actions of the crusaders being indicative of the Latin attitude towards the East, an attitude that persist to this day.
There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did. It's cute how you all think it is appropriate to bring it up, but then when we talk about forgiveness you all claim that you are not really mad about it anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?

What argument did someone try to make? You called all Orthodox Christians unloving and Fr George made a retort. So first you act like an ass yesterday and now criticize us for being unforgiving. You need to get a grip my friend.

Well it is a poor argument on Fr. George's part. I point out that a large majority of EOs are hateful to RCs now in the present (which one only has to look at some of the posts on this forum to realize), and he backtracks and tries to rehash something that some RCs did hundreds of years ago. Grasp at straws much?

That is not what you point out; you "pointed out" that, "So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love."  What is more hateful - some snide remarks about, from our POV, bad RC theology and history, or saying that we have no love - and therefore, no Christ, no union with God, no sacraments, etc., which are all expressions and manifestations in us of God's love for humankind.  

If you're going to ever make the claim that, "So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love," then you're going to have to back that up - and backing it up requires history, a fact that does not bode well for you viz-a-viz your relationship with the Orthodox, whether modern or ancient or anything in between.  I'm not going to claim that the RC church is all bad - there's been too much charity and compassion shown by millions of RCs to claim that - but don't tell me your collective excrement doesn't stink.
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« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2010, 02:19:30 PM »

Well, I just flew in from sacking Constantinople, and boy are my arms tired.
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« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2010, 02:21:12 PM »

You mean by asking them to return to their Eastern Traditions? How aweful. Bad! Bad Vatican!  Roll Eyes


Just the fact that they have to return to them proves my point.
And the fact that they are being encouraged to be Eastern disproves  your point. So which is it? lol
The Vatican's Drang nach Osten? The same it has always been:

http://www.christisall.org/wp-content/images/Wolf%20-%20sheep.jpg

That they have to return is from a sincere effort to Latinize them.  The encouragement is disingenuous. Such tripe (wolves eat tripe, lambs do not) as this
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html
("Priestly celibacy in patristics and in the history of the Church." Roman Cholij, Secretary of the Apostolic Exarch for Ukrainian Catholics in Great Britain)
on the Vatican's own official web site shows that. For those who can see.
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« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2010, 02:21:27 PM »

I have to say, though based upon only anecdotal evidence, that this is simply not true. First of all, despite the sometimes heated rhetoric around oc.net, I have yet to hear any Orthodox say they hate RCs. Based on what I read on oc.net (always a dangerous practice, I know!), what most RCs don't "get" about the Orthodox is that they don't hate Catholics. They simply don't give it a thought. What they do think is that Catholics have got it wrong, but that's their business.

You may not see it as an Orthodox, but being that a few Catholics and a non-Catholic see the smoke, don't you suppose there might be something there?


Not necessarily. Are only the Orthodox unaware of their own blind spots and sensitivities?


Considering only the current topic, and only non-orthodox agree with RC-disaffection, I stand by my original statement.
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« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2010, 02:27:19 PM »

It's Catholic ecclesiology.


It's Latin ecclesiology. I've heard plenty of Eastern Catholics who see things differently.


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« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2010, 02:27:54 PM »

Either you hold us liable for the sacking of Constantinople solely because of our Communion with Rome or you don't. Now...which is it?

Neither. That's the problem with your thinking. It only allows for two opinions. Both of which are silly.

The sacking of Constantinople by Latin Catholics while on a religious crusade sanctioned and promoted by the same Church, in whole or in part, is a fact. It happened. That the Latin Church benefited from the sacking, at least monetarily, is also a fact.

A crusade for a different country.

I've already admitted the Catholics benefitted in a previous reply to isalmsry.

And if you think that the Sack of Constantinople or Orthodox anger over it or inability to forgive is the only thing keeping the two Churches apart, as I said, you simply don't get it.

You're just wrong.

Strawman.
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« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2010, 02:31:48 PM »

Well, I just flew in from sacking Constantinople, and boy are my arms tired.
really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynuwcd8SAhE&feature=related
(the lyrics are wrong of course: it's the Greeks business).
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« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2010, 02:33:19 PM »

It's Catholic ecclesiology.


It's Latin ecclesiology. I've heard plenty of Eastern Catholics who see things differently.


Both ecclesiologies are accentuating their own positions. The past shows Papal control WITH patriarchal management of regions. As communication has grown recently, the need for the Patriarchal system has been seen by some as no longer necessary. However, some Eastern Catholics are now saying that's not true, the Church can still benefit from the old structure.
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« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2010, 02:34:48 PM »

But in our ecclesiology, they are not oppressed, because in our ecclesiology, they must submitt to Rome.

Are you so sure that really is their ecclesiology?
It's Catholic ecclesiology.
Patriarch St. Ignatius knew nothing of it when he wrote "where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church." The Vatican hadn't invented Ultramontanism yet.
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« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2010, 02:35:36 PM »

The Native Americans want their land back.
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« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2010, 02:39:13 PM »

Isa,

The point I'm making is it wasn't the desire of the Church to make any military move after Constantinople. I'll admit, after the deed was done, the Pope used the current situation to the Catholic Church advantage. Probably knowing, without means of communication beyond foot, trying to reconcile what had been done and then moving forward with unification would be that much harder. As you can see, the event hasn't been forgotten even 800 years later.

And as had been explained, there is a reason it hasn't been forgotten. The event epitomizes a Latin attitude that persists to this day. Just look at how the Vatican treats its fellow Eastern Catholics.

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.
No, just noticing for instance the projection of the Vatican's mandated clerical celibacy, for instance, on everywhere outside majority Orthodox countries (where its ruse is obvious, and it can't get away with such antics).
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« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2010, 02:47:31 PM »

Isa,

The point I'm making is it wasn't the desire of the Church to make any military move after Constantinople. I'll admit, after the deed was done, the Pope used the current situation to the Catholic Church advantage. Probably knowing, without means of communication beyond foot, trying to reconcile what had been done and then moving forward with unification would be that much harder. As you can see, the event hasn't been forgotten even 800 years later.

And as had been explained, there is a reason it hasn't been forgotten. The event epitomizes a Latin attitude that persists to this day. Just look at how the Vatican treats its fellow Eastern Catholics.

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.
No, just noticing for instance the projection of the Vatican's mandated clerical celibacy, for instance, on everywhere outside majority Orthodox countries (where its ruse is obvious, and it can't get away with such antics).

Clerical celibacy is a discipline for all priests in the Catholic Church, not just Bishops as in the Orthodox Church (as you are well aware). Since they are in the Catholic Church, there was a period when that discipline was desired throughout the Church. Why? Because, while you see the Easter Catholics as hostage Orthodox under the Pope, the ECs are in reality a member of the greater Catholic Church. Therefore, the discipline had been pushed universally. Of course, there are also ECs that prefer to keep the Eastern discipline. Just as there are Latin Catholics that want to adopt the Eastern discipline.
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« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2010, 02:50:15 PM »

And if you think that the Sack of Constantinople or Orthodox anger over it or inability to forgive is the only thing keeping the two Churches apart, as I said, you simply don't get it.

You're just wrong.

Strawman.

Why?
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« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2010, 02:53:32 PM »

And if you think that the Sack of Constantinople or Orthodox anger over it or inability to forgive is the only thing keeping the two Churches apart, as I said, you simply don't get it.

You're just wrong.

Strawman.

Why?



You are creating a argument where there is none and then attacking it.
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« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2010, 03:00:18 PM »

Clerical celibacy is a discipline for all priests in the Catholic Church, not just Bishops as in the Orthodox Church (as you are well aware). Since they are in the Catholic Church, there was a period when that discipline was desired throughout the Church. Why? Because, while you see the Easter Catholics as hostage Orthodox under the Pope, the ECs are in reality a member of the greater Catholic Church. Therefore, the discipline had been pushed universally. Of course, there are also ECs that prefer to keep the Eastern discipline. Just as there are Latin Catholics that want to adopt the Eastern discipline.


Mandatory celibacy is a discipline for the Latin Church, not the Eastern Churches, and the Latin Church had/has no authority to impose it on the Eastern Churches.
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« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2010, 03:02:16 PM »

Clerical celibacy is a discipline for all priests in the Catholic Church, not just Bishops as in the Orthodox Church (as you are well aware). Since they are in the Catholic Church, there was a period when that discipline was desired throughout the Church. Why? Because, while you see the Easter Catholics as hostage Orthodox under the Pope, the ECs are in reality a member of the greater Catholic Church. Therefore, the discipline had been pushed universally. Of course, there are also ECs that prefer to keep the Eastern discipline. Just as there are Latin Catholics that want to adopt the Eastern discipline.


Mandatory celibacy is a discipline for the Latin Church, not the Eastern Churches, and the Latin Church had/has no authority to impose it on the Eastern Churches.

As I said in the previous post, the Easten Catholics are members of the Catholic Church, therefore it has every authority.

You confuse Orthodox ecclesiology with Catholic. They aren't separate churches in communion, they are separate traditions in one Church.
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« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2010, 03:02:28 PM »

You are creating a argument where there is none and then attacking it.

Naturally I don't agree. My point has been all along that I have not observed or personally witnessed any of these attitudes (i.e. Orthodox "hate" RCs and are irrationally angry with them over unfortunate events that are in the past, and lack love and forgiveness which adversely affects relationships between the two Churches).

I have stated that RCs just don't seem to "get" the general Orthodox opinion (outside oc.net) on these issues - which could be summed up as "What? Huh?Who cares?"

Orthodox consider RCs wrong on a number of things - way down the list are historic events. It is those things, not ancient grudges, that are keeping the two Churches apart. IMHO, of course.

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« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2010, 03:17:33 PM »

As I said in the previous post, the Easten Catholics are members of the Catholic Church, therefore it has every authority.

You confuse Orthodox ecclesiology with Catholic. They aren't separate churches in communion, they are separate traditions in one Church.


I'm sorry my friend but that is just wrong.
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« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2010, 03:25:50 PM »

As I said in the previous post, the Easten Catholics are members of the Catholic Church, therefore it has every authority.

You confuse Orthodox ecclesiology with Catholic. They aren't separate churches in communion, they are separate traditions in one Church.


I'm sorry my friend but that is just wrong.

Perhaps my wording was too strong. However, the Catholic Church can impose disciplines on all it's parts. Why do you disagree with this?
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« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2010, 03:31:33 PM »

Isa,

The point I'm making is it wasn't the desire of the Church to make any military move after Constantinople. I'll admit, after the deed was done, the Pope used the current situation to the Catholic Church advantage. Probably knowing, without means of communication beyond foot, trying to reconcile what had been done and then moving forward with unification would be that much harder. As you can see, the event hasn't been forgotten even 800 years later.

And as had been explained, there is a reason it hasn't been forgotten. The event epitomizes a Latin attitude that persists to this day. Just look at how the Vatican treats its fellow Eastern Catholics.

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.
No, just noticing for instance the projection of the Vatican's mandated clerical celibacy, for instance, on everywhere outside majority Orthodox countries (where its ruse is obvious, and it can't get away with such antics).

Clerical celibacy is a discipline for all priests in the Catholic Church,

you mean the Vatican. Yes, I am aware of that. But the Vatican and many of its followers deny that when we bring it up.

Quote
not just Bishops as in the Orthodox Church (as you are well aware).

Yes I am. Unfortunately, not all are so aware. And then there are those who deny it.

Quote
Since they are in the Catholic Church,

No, they are not. They are under the Vatican.

Quote
there was a period when that discipline was desired throughout the Church.

That period is the present.

Quote
Why? Because, while you see the Easter Catholics as hostage Orthodox under the Pope,

Stockholm syndrome.

Quote
the ECs are in reality a member of the greater Catholic Church.

No, in reality they are not members of the greater One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The confusion over that is the sources of their problems.

As for them being subjects of the Vatican, yes, I agree. But that isn't the bill of goods they were sold when they signed the "union" (that's called fraud in the inducement btw). Cf. their "ecumenical" council of Lateran IV "...we would wish to cherish and honour the Greeks who in our days are returning to the obedience of the apostolic see, by preserving their customs and rites as much as we can in the Lord..."

Quote
Therefore, the discipline had been pushed universally. Of course, there are also ECs that prefer to keep the Eastern discipline. Just as there are Latin Catholics that want to adopt the Eastern discipline.

St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!
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« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2010, 03:34:15 PM »

Perhaps my wording was too strong. However, the Catholic Church can impose disciplines on all it's parts. Why do you disagree with this?


If you are using the term "Catholic Church" as being synonymous with the Latin Church then yes I disagree. The Latin Church cannot impose its disciplines on the other local Churches. Those issues are not within the authority of the pope.
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« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2010, 03:36:09 PM »

As I said in the previous post, the Easten Catholics are members of the Catholic Church, therefore it has every authority.

You confuse Orthodox ecclesiology with Catholic. They aren't separate churches in communion, they are separate traditions in one Church.


I'm sorry my friend but that is just wrong.

Perhaps my wording was too strong. However, the Catholic Church can impose disciplines on all it's parts. Why do you disagree with this?

Because we, eastern Catholics, are sister Churches in communion with Rome.  It is what the Anglo-Catholics wanted as well and may have yet.  But for now it is the personal prelature and the Vatican will not impose its will over that of the Anglo-Catholic Prelate.  The generations of heavy-handedness are gone for better or worse but they are gone, transformed.  The centuries where the Roman Church was near equivalent to the Roman Rite were few and they were an anomaly in the universal Church.

You may check with any canonist you like for corroboration.

M.

M.
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« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2010, 03:39:45 PM »

Clerical celibacy is a discipline for all priests in the Catholic Church, not just Bishops as in the Orthodox Church (as you are well aware). Since they are in the Catholic Church, there was a period when that discipline was desired throughout the Church. Why? Because, while you see the Easter Catholics as hostage Orthodox under the Pope, the ECs are in reality a member of the greater Catholic Church. Therefore, the discipline had been pushed universally. Of course, there are also ECs that prefer to keep the Eastern discipline. Just as there are Latin Catholics that want to adopt the Eastern discipline.


Mandatory celibacy is a discipline for the Latin Church, not the Eastern Churches, and the Latin Church had/has no authority to impose it on the Eastern Churches.

As I said in the previous post, the Easten Catholics are members of the Catholic Church, therefore it has every authority.

You confuse Orthodox ecclesiology with Catholic. They aren't separate churches in communion, they are separate traditions in one Church.

Much to the dismay of the Vatican, we do not confuse its ecclesiology with the Orthodox ecclesiology of the Catholic Church.

They are several ecclesiasical communions in schism which have federated.  How far fraud in the inducement vitiates the terms of their confederation is a matter which does not involve us, except to serve as a warning against promises their supreme pontiff makes.

So one can make the argument that the Vatican has the authority to impose its tradition on them, but cannot argue the credibility of the Vatican as to its sincerity to any union with the Orthodox.
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« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2010, 03:40:17 PM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!

There is no such state as "under the Vatican"

There can be no imposition of clerical celibacy in the eastern Catholic Churches except that which is willing accepted by their Metropolitans.

We Pray for Saint Alexis as well.

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« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2010, 03:41:35 PM »

Remember the Alamo.
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« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2010, 03:41:57 PM »

Perhaps my wording was too strong. However, the Catholic Church can impose disciplines on all it's parts. Why do you disagree with this?


If you are using the term "Catholic Church" as being synonymous with the Latin Church then yes I disagree. The Latin Church cannot impose its disciplines on the other local Churches. Those issues are not within the authority of the pope.

No, under the principles of Ultramontanism enshrined in their dogma, canons, and councils, he can, something many fora have pointed out to mardukm for instance.
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« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2010, 03:44:07 PM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!

There is no such state as "under the Vatican"

your ecclesiolgoy and canons say otherwise.

Quote
There can be no imposition of clerical celibacy in the eastern Catholic Churches except that which is willing accepted by their Metropolitans.

your history says otherwise.

Quote
We Pray for Saint Alexis as well.
You pray for him, and we will pray to him.
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« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2010, 03:45:00 PM »

No, under the principles of Ultramontanism enshrined in their dogma, canons, and councils, he can, something many fora have pointed out to mardukm for instance.


That is certainly the way we Orthodox see it, but it is not what Eastern Catholics say about themselves.
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« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2010, 03:53:16 PM »

No, under the principles of Ultramontanism enshrined in their dogma, canons, and councils, he can, something many fora have pointed out to mardukm for instance.


That is certainly the way we Orthodox see it, but it is not what Eastern Catholics say about themselves.

People in abusive relationships rationalize a lot.
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« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2010, 03:53:29 PM »

As I said in the previous post, the Easten Catholics are members of the Catholic Church, therefore it has every authority.

You confuse Orthodox ecclesiology with Catholic. They aren't separate churches in communion, they are separate traditions in one Church.


I'm sorry my friend but that is just wrong.

Perhaps my wording was too strong. However, the Catholic Church can impose disciplines on all it's parts. Why do you disagree with this?

Because we, eastern Catholics, are sister Churches in communion with Rome.  It is what the Anglo-Catholics wanted as well and may have yet.  But for now it is the personal prelature and the Vatican will not impose its will over that of the Anglo-Catholic Prelate.  The generations of heavy-handedness are gone for better or worse but they are gone, transformed.  The centuries where the Roman Church was near equivalent to the Roman Rite were few and they were an anomaly in the universal Church.

You may check with any canonist you like for corroboration.

M.

Interesting. Looks like I've got it wrong.
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« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2010, 04:28:07 PM »

It's Catholic ecclesiology.


It's Latin ecclesiology. I've heard plenty of Eastern Catholics who see things differently.



Well, those who have told you otherwise are just bad Catholics then.
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« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2010, 04:30:44 PM »

Well, those who have told you otherwise are just bad Catholics then.


Elijahmaria, Mardukm............did you hear that?
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« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2010, 04:30:56 PM »

As I said in the previous post, the Easten Catholics are members of the Catholic Church, therefore it has every authority.

You confuse Orthodox ecclesiology with Catholic. They aren't separate churches in communion, they are separate traditions in one Church.


I'm sorry my friend but that is just wrong.

Perhaps my wording was too strong. However, the Catholic Church can impose disciplines on all it's parts. Why do you disagree with this?

Because we, eastern Catholics, are sister Churches in communion with Rome.  It is what the Anglo-Catholics wanted as well and may have yet.  But for now it is the personal prelature and the Vatican will not impose its will over that of the Anglo-Catholic Prelate.  The generations of heavy-handedness are gone for better or worse but they are gone, transformed.  The centuries where the Roman Church was near equivalent to the Roman Rite were few and they were an anomaly in the universal Church.

You may check with any canonist you like for corroboration.

M.

Interesting. Looks like I've got it wrong.
No you didn't have it wrong.
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« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2010, 04:51:08 PM »

I'm curious as to Wyatt's thought on my post, responding to his accusation about me:

There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did.

You obviously missed the point; something that has happened more than once in the other thread where my comment came up.  You can't use a ridiculous statement like, "So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love," and not be called out for it.  An assertion like that falls flat on its face in hundreds of ways borne out in hundreds of years of history - history which you're not liable for, IMO, but which you must bear if you're going to put, "So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love," out there as your rallying cry.  As I've mentioned before: get off your self-imagined moral high horse and deal with reality - and the issues - as they're presented.
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« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2010, 04:53:56 PM »

There is something to forgive if you plan on bringing it up in debates and attempt to use it as a valid argument, as Fr. George did.

You obviously missed the point; something that has happened more than once in the other thread where my comment came up.  You can't use a ridiculous statement like, "So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love," and not be called out for it.  An assertion like that falls flat on its face in hundreds of ways borne out in hundreds of years of history - history which you're not liable for, IMO, but which you must bear if you're going to put, "So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love," out there as your rallying cry.  As I've mentioned before: get off your self-imagined moral high horse and deal with reality - and the issues - as they're presented.
That's because you didn't make a point. My "love versus no love" comment was based on real, visible, modern day Eastern Orthodox on this forum saying rude and hateful things to modern day Catholics. That has nothing to do with what some Catholics may have done centuries ago. We cannot apologize for something we did not do, but those on this forum who are anti-Catholic can certainly apologize for their conduct.
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« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2010, 05:09:26 PM »

It makes all the sense in the world to argue about something that happened several centuries ago that nobody here can do anything about.  It doubly makes sense to criticize Catholic ecclesiology when by all accounts according to this http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30764.msg488425.html#msg488425 thread you've got a bishop throwing a priest out of his house before the Holidays over wearing a cassock.

Kudos!

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« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2010, 05:14:44 PM »

Wyatt,

So your response to a handful of real-life situations (in which, IMO, you take things personally that are not intended to be personal) is to make the sweeping over-generalization (yes, I know that "sweeping over-generalization" is triply redundant) that, "the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love."  It is a statement that is ridiculous on its face, and will certainly do nothing but bring hostility to a situation that you claim is bad... because of hostility! 

There was a point, which I'm now explaining to you for the second time: your statement, that "the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love" requires proof, and proof can only come from observation in history.  Since that is the case, there are plenty of things that can be brought to bear that indicate that your simplistic statement is completely and demonstrably false because of un-loving things done by RC's in the past - the fact that I chose an event 806+ years in the past doesn't indicate that I couldn't have used a more recent topic, but rather indicates that I'm trying to make a point about how ridiculous a sweeping over-generalization like yours is.  You have chosen to characterize the Orthodox by your observations in very, very, very recent history - but it's still history (i.e. the past) - and I believe your characterization to be false for a number of reasons, some of which have nothing to do with our fundamental disagreement (the truth of EO vs. RC). 

I also, as I have stated before, believe that this history is, "history which you're not liable for, IMO, but which you must bear if you're going to put, 'So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love,' out there as your rallying cry."  But you've ignored that point - that your statement exceeds the scope of your observation, experience, and, quite frankly, the "evidence" you've provided.

All that said - you need to not take statements of disagreement about faith so personally.  If it's always going to be "like this," then you need to choose another section of this forum to post in, because the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion subforum of the Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion forum on OrthodoxChristianity.net is always going to be a place where Orthodoxy is compared to Catholicism in a critical way, with preference given to the Orthodox since this is the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion subforum of the Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion forum on OrthodoxChristianity.net.  If every critique of Catholicism is going to elicit a "you guys are meanies" reaction, then spend more time in Other Topics talking about sports, or Liturgy talking about how much we all hate clown masses.
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« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2010, 05:15:46 PM »

Forget it, Jake - it's Chinatown. Sad
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« Reply #100 on: November 02, 2010, 05:15:54 PM »

It makes all the sense in the world to argue about something that happened several centuries ago that nobody here can do anything about.

I don't get why people are arguing about it; I brought it up to make a point about something unrelated to it.  But hey, that's the nature of the 'net.
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« Reply #101 on: November 02, 2010, 05:20:05 PM »

Well, those who have told you otherwise are just bad Catholics then.


Elijahmaria, Mardukm............did you hear that?

Papist is right though. The "Eastern Catholics" who reject the new Papal dogmas, yet remain in communion with Rome, are engaged in some fantasy roleplaying where they live in the first millenium. It's funny now and then to visit certain fora and see the bizarre rationalizations they weave.
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« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2010, 05:20:23 PM »

It makes all the sense in the world to argue about something that happened several centuries ago that nobody here can do anything about.

I don't get why people are arguing about it; I brought it up to make a point about something unrelated to it.  But hey, that's the nature of the 'net.
Because you rehashed something that's long been dead where as I brought up something that one can verify for themselves by reading this forum, perhaps?  Wink
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« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2010, 05:23:16 PM »

I don't get why people are arguing about it; I brought it up to make a point about something unrelated to it.  But hey, that's the nature of the 'net.

Because it's like having a perpetual undergrad course where you can hash over all the historical wrongs you've discovered somebody else is at fault for.  There are people who like that sort of thing.
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« Reply #104 on: November 02, 2010, 05:24:17 PM »

.
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« Reply #105 on: November 02, 2010, 05:29:29 PM »

The late Pope John Paul II did apologize for the sack :

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=28935&repos=4&subrepos=1&searchid=675847
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« Reply #106 on: November 02, 2010, 06:13:03 PM »

Well, those who have told you otherwise are just bad Catholics then.


Elijahmaria, Mardukm............did you hear that?

Papist is right though. The "Eastern Catholics" who reject the new Papal dogmas Catholic teaching, yet remain in communion with Rome, are engaged in some fantasy roleplaying where they live in the first millenium Eastern Orthodox in Communion with Rome. It's funny now and then to visit certain fora and see the bizarre rationalizations they weave.
I fixed it for you and now we agree.  Grin
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« Reply #107 on: November 02, 2010, 06:13:31 PM »

.
Point taken.
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« Reply #108 on: November 02, 2010, 06:29:54 PM »

.

%
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« Reply #109 on: November 02, 2010, 06:36:32 PM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.

Catholic ecclesiology unfortunately is lacking in how the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churhces relate and this is what the Eastern Bishops at the Middle East Synod were complaining about.  The Pope has the primacy to defend the rights of all Churches, not so he can micromanage Eastern Churches when it is good for the Latin Church.  Case in point: Married priests in the diaspora.  Most, but not all, Eastern Churches have resumed ordaining married men whether the Rome or Latin bishops like it.  Rome has said nothing and that is the problem.  The Pope should apologize for his predecessors ever restricting the ordination of married men in the Eastern Churches and state unequivocally it is the right of Eastern Churches to ordain married men everywhere.  Latin bishops should be told catechize their faithful and not complain they will be scandalized, which is a cop out.  Patriarchs should be given immediate jurisdiction over their faithful everywhere in the world.  Why is the Latin Church the only sui iuris church without territorial limitation?  The Congregation for Eastern Churches should be abolished.  It is disrespectful for Patriarchs to be reporting to Cardinals.  Setting aside doctrinal issues, these three disciplinary issues are a major roadblock the Eastern Orthodox  would never accept.  Lets take care of these things so they can see Rome is serious about reunion.  If Rome doesn't, all the talk about return to tradition is lip service.
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« Reply #110 on: November 02, 2010, 06:42:49 PM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.

Catholic ecclesiology unfortunately is lacking in how the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churhces relate and this is what the Eastern Bishops at the Middle East Synod were complaining about.  The Pope has the primacy to defend the rights of all Churches, not so he can micromanage Eastern Churches when it is good for the Latin Church.  Case in point: Married priests in the diaspora.  Most, but not all, Eastern Churches have resumed ordaining married men whether the Rome or Latin bishops like it.  Rome has said nothing and that is the problem.  The Pope should apologize for his predecessors ever restricting the ordination of married men in the Eastern Churches and state unequivocally it is the right of Eastern Churches to ordain married men everywhere.  Latin bishops should be told catechize their faithful and not complain they will be scandalized, which is a cop out.  Patriarchs should be given immediate jurisdiction over their faithful everywhere in the world.  Why is the Latin Church the only sui iuris church without territorial limitation?  The Congregation for Eastern Churches should be abolished.  It is disrespectful for Patriarchs to be reporting to Cardinals.  Setting aside doctrinal issues, these three disciplinary issues are a major roadblock the Eastern Orthodox  would never accept.  Lets take care of these things so tehy can see Rome is serious about reunion.  If Rome doesn't all the talk about return to tradition is lip service.



This reflects what I hear from other Eastern Catholics across the web.
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« Reply #111 on: November 02, 2010, 07:25:40 PM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.

Catholic ecclesiology unfortunately is lacking in how the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churhces relate and this is what the Eastern Bishops at the Middle East Synod were complaining about.  The Pope has the primacy to defend the rights of all Churches, not so he can micromanage Eastern Churches when it is good for the Latin Church.  Case in point: Married priests in the diaspora.  Most, but not all, Eastern Churches have resumed ordaining married men whether the Rome or Latin bishops like it.  Rome has said nothing and that is the problem.  The Pope should apologize for his predecessors ever restricting the ordination of married men in the Eastern Churches and state unequivocally it is the right of Eastern Churches to ordain married men everywhere.  Latin bishops should be told catechize their faithful and not complain they will be scandalized, which is a cop out.  Patriarchs should be given immediate jurisdiction over their faithful everywhere in the world.  Why is the Latin Church the only sui iuris church without territorial limitation?  The Congregation for Eastern Churches should be abolished.  It is disrespectful for Patriarchs to be reporting to Cardinals.  Setting aside doctrinal issues, these three disciplinary issues are a major roadblock the Eastern Orthodox  would never accept.  Lets take care of these things so they can see Rome is serious about reunion.  If Rome doesn't, all the talk about return to tradition is lip service.
Hey, I am not saying that because the Pope "can" that he "should" in all circumstances.
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« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2010, 07:26:50 PM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.

Catholic ecclesiology unfortunately is lacking in how the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churhces relate and this is what the Eastern Bishops at the Middle East Synod were complaining about.  The Pope has the primacy to defend the rights of all Churches, not so he can micromanage Eastern Churches when it is good for the Latin Church.  Case in point: Married priests in the diaspora.  Most, but not all, Eastern Churches have resumed ordaining married men whether the Rome or Latin bishops like it.  Rome has said nothing and that is the problem.  The Pope should apologize for his predecessors ever restricting the ordination of married men in the Eastern Churches and state unequivocally it is the right of Eastern Churches to ordain married men everywhere.  Latin bishops should be told catechize their faithful and not complain they will be scandalized, which is a cop out.  Patriarchs should be given immediate jurisdiction over their faithful everywhere in the world.  Why is the Latin Church the only sui iuris church without territorial limitation?  The Congregation for Eastern Churches should be abolished.  It is disrespectful for Patriarchs to be reporting to Cardinals.  Setting aside doctrinal issues, these three disciplinary issues are a major roadblock the Eastern Orthodox  would never accept.  Lets take care of these things so tehy can see Rome is serious about reunion.  If Rome doesn't all the talk about return to tradition is lip service.



This reflects what I hear from other Eastern Catholics across the web.

Yeah, I am aware. It is NOT what i hear from Eastern Catholics in person. Just as the average EO is not the same as the "netodox" neither is the average Eastern Catholic the same as the online "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" crowd.
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« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2010, 07:57:04 PM »

Well, those who have told you otherwise are just bad Catholics then.


Elijahmaria, Mardukm............did you hear that?

Yup!!

I don't worry about it any more than I worry about what Orthodox believers say that just ain't so  laugh

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« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2010, 08:00:21 PM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!

There is no such state as "under the Vatican"

your ecclesiolgoy and canons say otherwise.


No they do not.  Your assertions are factually out of some other reality than the lived reality and the formal reality of the Catholic Church, of which I am a member, and I am not Orthodox.

When you can actually speak to me from that reality  then perhaps there will be room for dialogue.  Till then you are talking to yourself and to those who are willing to believe anything if it suits their own distorted vision of the Catholic Church.

Mary
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« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2010, 08:02:07 PM »

So no, the sack wasn't by the Church, but by a rogue Army lead by Princes', intent on getting their own political agenda fulfilled.  
I am not so sure about that.
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« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2010, 08:09:15 PM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.

Catholic ecclesiology unfortunately is lacking in how the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churhces relate and this is what the Eastern Bishops at the Middle East Synod were complaining about.  The Pope has the primacy to defend the rights of all Churches, not so he can micromanage Eastern Churches when it is good for the Latin Church.  Case in point: Married priests in the diaspora.  Most, but not all, Eastern Churches have resumed ordaining married men whether the Rome or Latin bishops like it.  Rome has said nothing and that is the problem.  The Pope should apologize for his predecessors ever restricting the ordination of married men in the Eastern Churches and state unequivocally it is the right of Eastern Churches to ordain married men everywhere.  Latin bishops should be told catechize their faithful and not complain they will be scandalized, which is a cop out.  Patriarchs should be given immediate jurisdiction over their faithful everywhere in the world.  Why is the Latin Church the only sui iuris church without territorial limitation?  The Congregation for Eastern Churches should be abolished.  It is disrespectful for Patriarchs to be reporting to Cardinals.  Setting aside doctrinal issues, these three disciplinary issues are a major roadblock the Eastern Orthodox  would never accept.  Lets take care of these things so they can see Rome is serious about reunion.  If Rome doesn't, all the talk about return to tradition is lip service.

Dear Father Deacon,

I agree with you here, with one reservation.  It seems to me that our bishops and metropolitans have an obligation to be polite to the curial secretariat, but being polite is not the same thing as yielding every time the curial offices try to meddle in the affairs of the eastern Churches.  

At any time our Metropolitan Archbishops could have thanked the Secretary of any of the Curial offices and told them that the matter would be taken up in the local synod.  Till then, it would be business as usual in the running of each particular Church.

Eastern Catholic leadership has wandered its way onto the rocks,  ever more surely than they were dragged there kicking and screaming.

And that is where you and I differ.

Mary
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« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2010, 08:17:46 PM »

I'm confused... I'm Italian AND Orthodox... did I sack Constantinople?  I admit to some rather heavy drinking during my 20's, so I suppose it could have happened one of those nights I don't remember...

Papist, maybe you can help me out... I would have been the skinny kid in the leather jacket with a mohawk... Do you remember if I was in on it?
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« Reply #118 on: November 02, 2010, 08:19:59 PM »


There have not been any Vatican apologies.

The heartfelt apologies which John Paul apparently wished to make were subverted by Cardinal Ratzinger who saw John Paul as naively creating a dangerous precedent for the Roman Catholic Church and diminishing its dignity as the Una Sancta.

So grab some of those apologies and see what they became under Ratzinger's influence --- they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

The pseudo-apologies of Pope John Paul II, carefully crafted by Cardinal Ratzinger. 

For an example see message 46 and others in this thread

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27715.msg437881.html#msg437881

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« Reply #119 on: November 02, 2010, 08:20:17 PM »

I'm confused... I'm Italian AND Orthodox... did I sack Constantinople?  I admit to some rather heavy drinking during my 20's, so I suppose it could have happened one of those nights I don't remember...

Papist, maybe you can help me out... I would have been the skinny kid in the leather jacket with a mohawk... Do you remember if I was in on it?
oh man... now I why I though you were so familiar. Wink
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« Reply #120 on: November 02, 2010, 08:40:17 PM »

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« Reply #121 on: November 02, 2010, 08:46:28 PM »


would you believe that as you were posting this I had the "Inquisition" musical piece from Mel Brooks' History of the World Part I running through my head?

"Hey, Torquemada, what do you say?"

"I just got back from da auto de fe"

"'Auto de fe', what's an 'auto de fe'"

"It's what you ought'nt to do but you do it anyway."
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« Reply #122 on: November 02, 2010, 08:46:34 PM »

Recently I got sacked.      laugh
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« Reply #123 on: November 02, 2010, 08:57:16 PM »

Well boys, offer to another busy night of sacking. I got my sword, my sheild with the crusader's cross on it, and oh yeah, my hoad of Latins. See ya tomorrow.
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« Reply #124 on: November 02, 2010, 10:08:07 PM »

"The posters of this thread hired to continue the thread after the other people had been sacked, wish it to be known that they have just been sacked."
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« Reply #125 on: November 02, 2010, 10:18:58 PM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!

There is no such state as "under the Vatican"

your ecclesiolgoy and canons say otherwise.


No they do not.  Your assertions are factually out of some other reality than the lived reality and the formal reality of the Catholic Church, of which I am a member, and I am not Orthodox.

Then you are not a member of the Catholic Church.

I can't comment on your own reality you live in Oz. As for the facts, one need only read Lumen Gentium with understanding, not excuses.

Quote
When you can actually speak to me from that reality  then perhaps there will be room for dialogue.

There's plenty of room down in Wonderland, but I'm not jumping from reality down the rabbit hole.

Quote
 Till then you are talking to yourself and to those who are willing to believe anything if it suits their own distorted vision of the Catholic Church.
your little talk
^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.

Catholic ecclesiology unfortunately is lacking in how the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churhces relate and this is what the Eastern Bishops at the Middle East Synod were complaining about.  The Pope has the primacy to defend the rights of all Churches, not so he can micromanage Eastern Churches when it is good for the Latin Church.  Case in point: Married priests in the diaspora.  Most, but not all, Eastern Churches have resumed ordaining married men whether the Rome or Latin bishops like it.  Rome has said nothing and that is the problem.  The Pope should apologize for his predecessors ever restricting the ordination of married men in the Eastern Churches and state unequivocally it is the right of Eastern Churches to ordain married men everywhere.  Latin bishops should be told catechize their faithful and not complain they will be scandalized, which is a cop out.  Patriarchs should be given immediate jurisdiction over their faithful everywhere in the world.  Why is the Latin Church the only sui iuris church without territorial limitation?  The Congregation for Eastern Churches should be abolished.  It is disrespectful for Patriarchs to be reporting to Cardinals.  Setting aside doctrinal issues, these three disciplinary issues are a major roadblock the Eastern Orthodox  would never accept.  Lets take care of these things so they can see Rome is serious about reunion.  If Rome doesn't, all the talk about return to tradition is lip service.

Dear Father Deacon,

I agree with you here, with one reservation.  It seems to me that our bishops and metropolitans have an obligation to be polite to the curial secretariat, but being polite is not the same thing as yielding every time the curial offices try to meddle in the affairs of the eastern Churches.  

At any time our Metropolitan Archbishops could have thanked the Secretary of any of the Curial offices and told them that the matter would be taken up in the local synod.  Till then, it would be business as usual in the running of each particular Church.

Eastern Catholic leadership has wandered its way onto the rocks,  ever more surely than they were dragged there kicking and screaming.

And that is where you and I differ.

Mary
shows we're (yes, I'm not alone. Not by far) not the ones with a distorted vision of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #126 on: November 02, 2010, 10:20:11 PM »

"The posters of this thread hired to continue the thread after the other people had been sacked, wish it to be known that they have just been sacked."

And now for something completely different.
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« Reply #127 on: November 02, 2010, 10:26:57 PM »

It makes all the sense in the world to argue about something that happened several centuries ago that nobody here can do anything about.

I don't get why people are arguing about it; I brought it up to make a point about something unrelated to it.  But hey, that's the nature of the 'net.
Because you rehashed something that's long been dead where as I brought up something that one can verify for themselves by reading this forum, perhaps?  Wink

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
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« Reply #128 on: November 02, 2010, 10:33:23 PM »

Well boys, offer to another busy night of sacking.

Remember to take a bag when you sack.
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« Reply #129 on: November 02, 2010, 10:33:38 PM »

I'm confused... I'm Italian AND Orthodox... did I sack Constantinople?  I admit to some rather heavy drinking during my 20's, so I suppose it could have happened one of those nights I don't remember...

Papist, maybe you can help me out... I would have been the skinny kid in the leather jacket with a mohawk... Do you remember if I was in on it?

Was it that night when we both got trashed when I was up for the wife's boot camp graduation?
Or perhaps it was that time when I was in Italy and got trashed and still don't remember most of the night...*

So... My family used to be RC, then Southern Baptist, and now my brother and I are EO (with my wife and daughter soon to follow). My family on my paternal great grandmother's side is slightly responsible for bringing southern Italy under Vatican control. The point I am trying to make is that if the EO were still blaming the people for what happened then they should still be blaming my brother and I for our families part in what transpired. However the EO do not blame the people themselves, but they use the sack of Constantinople as an example of the current RC attitude towards EO (or Western thought versus Eastern thought).

As Isa has pointed out, even though the Pope said "No, no don't do that! Shame on you!" (paraphrasing), he did not really back up what he said and instead he seemed to almost sanction what had happened. This showed that he really did not care about the EO and how they might possibly feel about having one of their Patriarchal thrones sacked. Instead he used the sacking for his own personal gain, and many EO still see this attitude prevalent in the Vatican (but not necessarily in the actual people who are RC).

*The poster no longer condones heavy drinking to the point of being "trashed" or to the point of blacking out and not remembering the fact that he projectile vomited on a commanding officer of another unit. He has learned his lesson and has thusly repented.*
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« Reply #130 on: November 02, 2010, 10:41:51 PM »

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
When did I claim that my posts were stimulating? All I said was that I brought up a valid point, which is that there are several EO and OO members on here who are a very poor witness for their faiths. You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics. I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #131 on: November 02, 2010, 10:43:47 PM »

I'm confused... I'm Italian AND Orthodox... did I sack Constantinople?  I admit to some rather heavy drinking during my 20's, so I suppose it could have happened one of those nights I don't remember...

Papist, maybe you can help me out... I would have been the skinny kid in the leather jacket with a mohawk... Do you remember if I was in on it?

Was it that night when we both got trashed when I was up for the wife's boot camp graduation?
Or perhaps it was that time when I was in Italy and got trashed and still don't remember most of the night...*

So... My family used to be RC, then Southern Baptist, and now my brother and I are EO (with my wife and daughter soon to follow). My family on my paternal great grandmother's side is slightly responsible for bringing southern Italy under Vatican control. The point I am trying to make is that if the EO were still blaming the people for what happened then they should still be blaming my brother and I for our families part in what transpired. However the EO do not blame the people themselves, but they use the sack of Constantinople as an example of the current RC attitude towards EO (or Western thought versus Eastern thought).

As Isa has pointed out, even though the Pope said "No, no don't do that! Shame on you!" (paraphrasing), he did not really back up what he said and instead he seemed to almost sanction what had happened. This showed that he really did not care about the EO and how they might possibly feel about having one of their Patriarchal thrones sacked. Instead he used the sacking for his own personal gain, and many EO still see this attitude prevalent in the Vatican (but not necessarily in the actual people who are RC).

*The poster no longer condones heavy drinking to the point of being "trashed" or to the point of blacking out and not remembering the fact that he projectile vomited on a commanding officer of another unit. He has learned his lesson and has thusly repented.*

Slightly responsible?!!  They only sacked the entire southern peninsula and Sicily!  And then held the city of Naples under their iron fist until the 19th century!!  I don't see any reason why anyone should trust either you or me!  

We might sack them when their backs are turned.
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« Reply #132 on: November 02, 2010, 10:46:34 PM »

I'm confused... I'm Italian AND Orthodox... did I sack Constantinople?  I admit to some rather heavy drinking during my 20's, so I suppose it could have happened one of those nights I don't remember...

Papist, maybe you can help me out... I would have been the skinny kid in the leather jacket with a mohawk... Do you remember if I was in on it?

Was it that night when we both got trashed when I was up for the wife's boot camp graduation?
Or perhaps it was that time when I was in Italy and got trashed and still don't remember most of the night...*

So... My family used to be RC, then Southern Baptist, and now my brother and I are EO (with my wife and daughter soon to follow). My family on my paternal great grandmother's side is slightly responsible for bringing southern Italy under Vatican control. The point I am trying to make is that if the EO were still blaming the people for what happened then they should still be blaming my brother and I for our families part in what transpired. However the EO do not blame the people themselves, but they use the sack of Constantinople as an example of the current RC attitude towards EO (or Western thought versus Eastern thought).

As Isa has pointed out, even though the Pope said "No, no don't do that! Shame on you!" (paraphrasing), he did not really back up what he said and instead he seemed to almost sanction what had happened. This showed that he really did not care about the EO and how they might possibly feel about having one of their Patriarchal thrones sacked. Instead he used the sacking for his own personal gain, and many EO still see this attitude prevalent in the Vatican (but not necessarily in the actual people who are RC).

*The poster no longer condones heavy drinking to the point of being "trashed" or to the point of blacking out and not remembering the fact that he projectile vomited on a commanding officer of another unit. He has learned his lesson and has thusly repented.*

Slightly responsible?!!  They only sacked the entire southern peninsula and Sicily!  And then held the city of Naples under their iron fist until the 19th century!!  I don't see any reason why anyone should trust either you or me!  

We might sack them when their backs are turned.

SHHHHH! Don't show our hand just yet!  Grin

I bid you all a good night.
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« Reply #133 on: November 02, 2010, 11:17:31 PM »

I think we can all join together and do something more productive with our time by protesting at the local British consulate or embassy for burning down the white house during the War of 1812.  They probably never even apologized.
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« Reply #134 on: November 02, 2010, 11:35:27 PM »

"The posters of this thread hired to continue the thread after the other people had been sacked, wish it to be known that they have just been sacked."
paper or plastic? Smiley
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« Reply #135 on: November 02, 2010, 11:40:41 PM »

I think we can all join together and do something more productive with our time by protesting at the local British consulate or embassy for burning down the white house during the War of 1812.  They probably never even apologized.
Uh, that happened as payback for the Americans invading Canada and burning down its capital. The Americans don't remember that, let alone apologized for it.
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« Reply #136 on: November 02, 2010, 11:53:43 PM »

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
When did I claim that my posts were stimulating? All I said was that I brought up a valid point, which is that there are several EO and OO members on here who are a very poor witness for their faiths. You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics. I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.

Wyatt,

I don't see that pointing fingers at others for being poor witnesses to their faith on an Internet discussion forum which, no matter the forum it seems, is a medium notorious for polemics, misunderstandings, arguments, and real and perceived nastiness is really going to do good. One has to look at oneself, give others the benefit of the doubt, and realize that there can be heated arguments and sharp differences of opinion that are not personal, that bear more on people's opinions and firmly held beliefs than on what they think of an individual or collection of people.
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« Reply #137 on: November 02, 2010, 11:59:19 PM »

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
When did I claim that my posts were stimulating? All I said was that I brought up a valid point, which is that there are several EO and OO members on here who are a very poor witness for their faiths.

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.

Quote
You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics.

Have you repudiated Lateran IV? Lyons I? How is there a Latin Patriarchate in Jerusalem, but not a Eastern "sui juris" one?

Quote
I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members.

because it is demanded by the oversensitive ones, who prefer Ultramontanism over Orthodoxy and do not like being called on that?

Quote
It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.
Yes, well we'll have to somehow survive how you picture us. As how we see your side of the Tiber
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« Reply #138 on: November 03, 2010, 12:51:49 AM »

they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

You are right, there can be no apology since there are no victims of the sacking alive to apologize to.  The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  Such cunning... 
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« Reply #139 on: November 03, 2010, 12:54:58 AM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.
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« Reply #140 on: November 03, 2010, 01:00:53 AM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.

One is likely to burn out or think too much of oneself if one keeps on being an Internet moral crusader. Best to look at how you live your faith than to make statements about how others live theirs, especially as you are not God and cannot read the heart.
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« Reply #141 on: November 03, 2010, 01:03:24 AM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.

One is likely to burn out or think too much of oneself if one keeps on being an Internet moral crusader. Best to look at how you live your faith than to make statements about how others live theirs, especially as you are not God and cannot read the heart.
Okay, so I should just sit back while ialmisry provokes and judges all of us but not do it myself, eh? Apparently as long as you are Eastern Orthodox you have the green light to sin as long as it is "in the name of 'the faith.'" Ialmisry would make a good muslim.
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« Reply #142 on: November 03, 2010, 01:18:21 AM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.

One is likely to burn out or think too much of oneself if one keeps on being an Internet moral crusader. Best to look at how you live your faith than to make statements about how others live theirs, especially as you are not God and cannot read the heart.
Okay, so I should just sit back while ialmisry provokes and judges all of us but not do it myself, eh? Apparently as long as you are Eastern Orthodox you have the green light to sin as long as it is "in the name of 'the faith.'" Ialmisry would make a good muslim.

This is rather infantile. First, it is just your perception that ialmisry "provokes and judges all (Roman Catholics)." You are only in a position to make your own interpretations of his posts, not look into how he sees them or his motivation. Then you go ahead and make assumptions of all Orthodox based on what you've perceived one or a couple Orthodox have done with regard to Roman Catholics. Really, this does nothing positive. It's "tit for tat" resentment, and resentment is from Satan. Of course, arguments and discussions on religion can be very heated, giving rise to passions and nastiness. But no one person or group has the monopoly on this behavior on an Internet forum or in Church history, etc. I've seen a lot of anti-Orthodox posting from non-Orthodox and even Orthodox themselves on this and other forums and in real life. Sure, it really gets on my nerves, but I have to separate myself from it, recognize that many people are just crazy, and accept it. Some are ignorant, some are mentally unbalanced, some are honestly trying to figure things out, some get kicks being nasty. I can't change any of it, really. Like my replies to you, I have no idea if you will take them to heart. I make them, and we'll see what happens, and if nothing does, I suppose I will give up. Many snide comments are worthy only of being ignored. Even reasonable responses will make no difference.
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« Reply #143 on: November 03, 2010, 01:45:32 AM »

they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

You are right, there can be no apology since there are no victims of the sacking alive to apologize to.  The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  Such cunning... 

Secular governments have no problems apologising to people from whose ancestors they have stolen land and artifacts and whom they held in contempt and subjugation.   We see such apologies here in my own country for how the whites treated the native Maori.  We see it in Australia.  Is there something that prevents the leader of Christendom from doing what secular government are able to do?
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« Reply #144 on: November 03, 2010, 01:51:50 AM »


You are right, there can be no apology since there are no victims of the sacking alive to apologize to.  The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  Such cunning... 


His Holiness Pope Benedict speaking to the Patriarch of Constantinople:  "Look, I am sorry but I cannot return all your looted treasures and holy relics in Catholic churches and museums.  The owners are no longer alive.  The best I can do is pray for you so that you will accept their loss.  Would you like another glass of this Chianti, it's rather nice."
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« Reply #145 on: November 03, 2010, 02:06:16 AM »


You are right, there can be no apology since there are no victims of the sacking alive to apologize to.  The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  Such cunning...  


His Holiness Pope Benedict speaking to the Patriarch of Constantinople:  "Look, I am sorry but I cannot return all your looted treasures and holy relics in Catholic churches and museums.  The owners are no longer alive.  The best I can do is pray for you so that you will accept their loss.  Would you like another glass of this Chianti, it's rather nice."
Has anyone apologized for the massacre of the Latins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins
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« Reply #146 on: November 03, 2010, 02:15:23 AM »

Has anyone apologized for the massacre of the Latins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

1182 -  riots and mayhem... It was always Italians fighting Italians in Constantinople, the Venetian colony against the Pisans against the Genoans, and then the Greeks taking up the fight.... all about big business and profits and greed.

It is not as if the Italians were unaccustomed to periodic slaughter in Constantinople.  They slaughtered themselves!!!  It was always the Italian groups slaughtering other Italian groups in the city  - Italians from Pisa and Venice and Genoa slaughtering each other's colonies.  It was in fact the Greek army which had to come in and put a halt to these messy Italian slaughters.

So, no, it was not justified for the Greeks to slaughter Italians but there is no denying that such inter-Italian events were not uncommon.
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« Reply #147 on: November 03, 2010, 02:32:05 AM »

Has anyone apologized for the massacre of the Latins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

1182 -  riots and mayhem... It was always Italians fighting Italians in Constantinople, the Venetian colony against the Pisans against the Genoans, and then the Greeks taking up the fight.... all about big business and profits and greed.

It is not as if the Italians were unaccustomed to periodic slaughter in Constantinople.  They slaughtered themselves!!!  It was always the Italian groups slaughtering other Italian groups in the city  - Italians from Pisa and Venice and Genoa slaughtering each other's colonies.  It was in fact the Greek army which had to come in and put a halt to these messy Italian slaughters.

So, no, it was not justified for the Greeks to slaughter Italians but there is no denying that such inter-Italian events were not uncommon.

According to the source-Latin priests and monks received special attention in the slaughter. An estimated 60,000 slaughtered or forced to flee and and the Pope's representative was beheaded. 4,000 survivors sold as slaves to the Turks.

Evil begets evil.
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« Reply #148 on: November 03, 2010, 08:39:25 AM »

You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics.

I guess it doesn't matter how many times I say, "the sky is blue," you'll continue to say, "... since you say the sky is purple."  My comment was only designed to show clearly how ridiculous your comment was.  If you want, since you seem to want to, I can point out more modern cases where RC clergy, Archbishops, etc. have abused Orthodox people - but I won't do it outside the Politics Forum, since they're touchy subjects.  Suffice it to say, RC clergy have plenty of Orthodox blood on their hands from the last 100 years.  I don't hold you responsible for that, but it does further demonstrate the ridiculousness of your statement.

I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.

Tread lightly, my friend.  You've shown pretty poor judgment in attempting to paint all Orthodox Christians as unloving; any further comment about any of the moderators here will not be tolerated.  Consider yourself warned.
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« Reply #149 on: November 03, 2010, 11:10:59 AM »

Is it really constructive for us all to argue so passionately about historical wrongs and abuses when our secular opponents mock us and our enemies within Islam rage against their perception of history and religion as they aggressively plot to cause havoc and destruction throughout the world?

Arguing about whose ancestors sinned more against their neighbors plays into the hands of the evil one and the forces of darkness. We should pray for the martyrs of today, such as those Syrian Catholic worshipers who were brutally murdered by Al-Queda forces in Iraq this past Sunday. Do we believe that their priest who died clutching the Cross of our Lord in his hands is our enemy rather than our brother?  Will we sit by and worry about long-dead Venetians and Constantinopolitans as our foes devilishly work to reconquer Cordoba and re-establish a Caliphate? Would those Americans in particular, who passionately (and ideally they are correct) call for the return of plunder from the west to the Orthodox likewise call for the return of sacred Native American items and lands from our museums and possession?

History has played herself out, the present is our time to shape the world - both in a temporal as well as a spiritual sense.

Frankly, in the secular world within Western Europe, no nation state (and her people) collectively acted more barbarously against its neighbors than did Germany in the twentieth century; yet today the Germans have come to grips with their past and her citizens and former enemies don't endlessly go on and on about her history. If the west had not come together after the war and work towards a more peaceful Europe, perhaps the Iron Curtain would still stand.

We Orthodox must be firm our our faith and defend the Church against Her enemies. Our Catholic brothers and sisters have the same charge. We have to ask ourselves one question - In today's world who really is the enemy and can we find common ground to fight it without compromising Truth? I'd like to think we can - and must.

Last week the weeping Iveron Icon came to my parish. It is no wonder that she wept in the presence of all in the congregation, including probably as many Catholic believers as Orthodox.
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« Reply #150 on: November 03, 2010, 11:23:17 AM »

Has anyone apologized for the massacre of the Latins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

1182 -  riots and mayhem... It was always Italians fighting Italians in Constantinople, the Venetian colony against the Pisans against the Genoans, and then the Greeks taking up the fight.... all about big business and profits and greed.

It is not as if the Italians were unaccustomed to periodic slaughter in Constantinople.  They slaughtered themselves!!!  It was always the Italian groups slaughtering other Italian groups in the city  - Italians from Pisa and Venice and Genoa slaughtering each other's colonies.  It was in fact the Greek army which had to come in and put a halt to these messy Italian slaughters.

So, no, it was not justified for the Greeks to slaughter Italians but there is no denying that such inter-Italian events were not uncommon.

According to the source-Latin priests and monks received special attention in the slaughter. An estimated 60,000 slaughtered or forced to flee and and the Pope's representative was beheaded. 4,000 survivors sold as slaves to the Turks.

Evil begets evil.

Indeed! The sack of 1204 made the conquest of 1453.

I notice that you haven't addressed the issue of the Latins slaughtering each other, bringing their home turg battles over into our house.  Unllike the Greeks of of Southern Italian, who populated the area long before Rome and the Latins arrived but were suppressed by invading Normans in support of the Vatican, the Latins in Constantinople were not natives of the area. What form would an apology take? "Sorry we killed your carpetbaggers, bloodsuckers, and mercenaries and their Trojan horse protectorate?"

Since the Vatican is running so far from its Crusader skeletons, to whom would we apologize?

But as Fr. George brought up, much more recent examples could be brought up, but that would have to be in politics.

Someone said that nothing can be changed now, so the Vatican did what it could by praying for the Crusaders' forgiveness. How about memory eternal for those they killed?
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« Reply #151 on: November 03, 2010, 11:26:59 AM »

Is it really constructive for us all to argue so passionately about historical wrongs and abuses when our secular opponents mock us and our enemies within Islam rage against their perception of history and religion as they aggressively plot to cause havoc and destruction throughout the world?

Arguing about whose ancestors sinned more against their neighbors plays into the hands of the evil one and the forces of darkness. We should pray for the martyrs of today, such as those Syrian Catholic worshipers who were brutally murdered by Al-Queda forces in Iraq this past Sunday. Do we believe that their priest who died clutching the Cross of our Lord in his hands is our enemy rather than our brother?  Will we sit by and worry about long-dead Venetians and Constantinopolitans as our foes devilishly work to reconquer Cordoba and re-establish a Caliphate? Would those Americans in particular, who passionately (and ideally they are correct) call for the return of plunder from the west to the Orthodox likewise call for the return of sacred Native American items and lands from our museums and possession?

History has played herself out, the present is our time to shape the world - both in a temporal as well as a spiritual sense.

Frankly, in the secular world within Western Europe, no nation state (and her people) collectively acted more barbarously against its neighbors than did Germany in the twentieth century; yet today the Germans have come to grips with their past and her citizens and former enemies don't endlessly go on and on about her history. If the west had not come together after the war and work towards a more peaceful Europe, perhaps the Iron Curtain would still stand.

We Orthodox must be firm our our faith and defend the Church against Her enemies. Our Catholic brothers and sisters have the same charge. We have to ask ourselves one question - In today's world who really is the enemy and can we find common ground to fight it without compromising Truth? I'd like to think we can - and must.

Last week the weeping Iveron Icon came to my parish. It is no wonder that she wept in the presence of all in the congregation, including probably as many Catholic believers as Orthodox.

Very, very well said.
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« Reply #152 on: November 03, 2010, 11:28:47 AM »

Is it really constructive for us all to argue so passionately about historical wrongs and abuses when our secular opponents mock us and our enemies within Islam rage against their perception of history and religion as they aggressively plot to cause havoc and destruction throughout the world?

Arguing about whose ancestors sinned more against their neighbors plays into the hands of the evil one and the forces of darkness. We should pray for the martyrs of today, such as those Syrian Catholic worshipers who were brutally murdered by Al-Queda forces in Iraq this past Sunday. Do we believe that their priest who died clutching the Cross of our Lord in his hands is our enemy rather than our brother?  Will we sit by and worry about long-dead Venetians and Constantinopolitans as our foes devilishly work to reconquer Cordoba and re-establish a Caliphate? Would those Americans in particular, who passionately (and ideally they are correct) call for the return of plunder from the west to the Orthodox likewise call for the return of sacred Native American items and lands from our museums and possession?

History has played herself out, the present is our time to shape the world - both in a temporal as well as a spiritual sense.

Frankly, in the secular world within Western Europe, no nation state (and her people) collectively acted more barbarously against its neighbors than did Germany in the twentieth century; yet today the Germans have come to grips with their past and her citizens and former enemies don't endlessly go on and on about her history. If the west had not come together after the war and work towards a more peaceful Europe, perhaps the Iron Curtain would still stand.

We Orthodox must be firm our our faith and defend the Church against Her enemies. Our Catholic brothers and sisters have the same charge. We have to ask ourselves one question - In today's world who really is the enemy and can we find common ground to fight it without compromising Truth? I'd like to think we can - and must.

Last week the weeping Iveron Icon came to my parish. It is no wonder that she wept in the presence of all in the congregation, including probably as many Catholic believers as Orthodox.

Very, very well said.

I agree.
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« Reply #153 on: November 03, 2010, 12:00:07 PM »

Okay, so I should just sit back while ialmisry provokes and judges all of us but not do it myself, eh?

Yep.
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« Reply #154 on: November 03, 2010, 12:05:16 PM »

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
When did I claim that my posts were stimulating? All I said was that I brought up a valid point, which is that there are several EO and OO members on here who are a very poor witness for their faiths.

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.

Quote
You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics.

Have you repudiated Lateran IV? Lyons I? How is there a Latin Patriarchate in Jerusalem, but not a Eastern "sui juris" one?

Quote
I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members.

because it is demanded by the oversensitive ones, who prefer Ultramontanism over Orthodoxy and do not like being called on that?

Quote
It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.
Yes, well we'll have to somehow survive how you picture us. As how we see your side of the Tiber

This is one of Isa's favorite pictures. See, EOs are more interested in the Papacy than we are.
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« Reply #155 on: November 03, 2010, 12:11:05 PM »

It makes all the sense in the world to argue about something that happened several centuries ago that nobody here can do anything about.

I don't get why people are arguing about it; I brought it up to make a point about something unrelated to it.  But hey, that's the nature of the 'net.
Because you rehashed something that's long been dead where as I brought up something that one can verify for themselves by reading this forum, perhaps?  Wink


Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
Given your smug sense of superiority demonstrated in this post, all I can say is, "Doctor, heal thyself."

I know Fr. George doesn't need me to defend him, but... That's certainly not how I read his post.  And knowing Fr. George personally, he is certainly not one to regard himself as superior.  Further, do remember you're addressing a priest, please.  I feel from reading your posts over the years that you are a good, devout Catholic.  Would you address a Catholic priest in such a manner?
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« Reply #156 on: November 03, 2010, 12:14:52 PM »

It makes all the sense in the world to argue about something that happened several centuries ago that nobody here can do anything about.

I don't get why people are arguing about it; I brought it up to make a point about something unrelated to it.  But hey, that's the nature of the 'net.
Because you rehashed something that's long been dead where as I brought up something that one can verify for themselves by reading this forum, perhaps?  Wink


Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
Given your smug sense of superiority demonstrated in this post, all I can say is, "Doctor, heal thyself."

I know Fr. George doesn't need me to defend him, but... That's certainly not how I read his post.  And knowing Fr. George personally, he is certainly not one to regard himself as superior.  Further, do remember you're addressing a priest, please.  I feel from reading your posts over the years that you are a good, devout Catholic.  Would you address a Catholic priest in such a manner?
you are right. Regardless of how I judge his actions, he is priest. I'll delete the post.
Fr. George, please forgive my rash behavior.
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« Reply #157 on: November 03, 2010, 01:19:46 PM »

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.
You may be part of the Eastern Orthodox faith, but I highly doubt you represent the conduct that an Eastern Orthodox Christian is supposed to have. You disagree with the RCC...that is fine. You are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to disagree with and not be a part of the EOC, but you don't have to belittle and insult RCs. That part you can and should control.

One is likely to burn out or think too much of oneself if one keeps on being an Internet moral crusader. Best to look at how you live your faith than to make statements about how others live theirs, especially as you are not God and cannot read the heart.
I don't have to read his heart. I can read the textual vomit he spews all over the place day in and day out.
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« Reply #158 on: November 03, 2010, 01:36:19 PM »

you are right. Regardless of how I judge his actions, he is priest. I'll delete the post.
Fr. George, please forgive my rash behavior.

I don't think you've sinned against me - but, nonetheless, God forgives and I forgive.  I haven't taken anything you, Wyatt, or anyone else has said personally - I see them as comments about faith, rhetoric, etc.  My only goal in making the comment that has stirred this thread is to discredit what I believe to be the most flagrantly wrong and certainly destructive piece of rhetoric - the "love vs no love" comment.

It is a tough business, "discussion."  On the one hand, we're trying our best to defend our positions and attack the others.  But so many times, people don't remain focused on the topics and instead turn to the people; for me, that is impossible in an EO-RC discussion - I have known personally far too many good, faithful, and loving RCs (some of whom are 'family' by all standards except blood) to personally attack anyone in your communion.  I will not back down from my belief that there are elements in RCism that are harmful, specifically revolving around what we EOs believe to be an inflated theology of the Papcy; but I will make these critiques with the tempered knowledge and belief that RCs are generally good and faithful people, and the world is better off having them (up and above most other groupings of Christians and non-Christians).
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« Reply #159 on: November 03, 2010, 02:54:22 PM »

I can read the textual vomit he spews all over the place day in and day out.

Oh, well. So much for not doing it yourself, eh?

If it upsets you so much, don't read it.
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« Reply #160 on: November 03, 2010, 03:10:39 PM »

Oh, well. So much for not doing it yourself, eh?
I was told that I shouldn't be getting upset since I don't know people like ialmisry's "heart" and that only God can judge that. If that's the rules we're playing by then you can hardly determine my true motives just by reading the text I type. The most you can do is infer where I am coming from when I say something but you cannot know for sure.

If it upsets you so much, don't read it.
Do my posts upset you? You are free to take your own advice if they are.
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« Reply #161 on: November 03, 2010, 03:23:32 PM »

This is getting ridiculous!
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« Reply #162 on: November 03, 2010, 03:26:44 PM »

This is getting ridiculous!
I agree. We need that Catholic moderator badly. I nominate Elijahmaria.
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« Reply #163 on: November 03, 2010, 03:43:01 PM »

I implore you to please stop the bickering and 'ad hominens' for a minute and read this article about the latest Islamist threats against Christians in Iraq and across the Holy Land.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/03/alqaida-christians-iraq-threat 

My brother (an ACROD priest)  is part of an Orthodox pilgrimage in the Holy Land led by our local OCA priest that includes a number of priests and several dozen faithful. They are there through November 12th.  Use your energy to pray for their safety and the safety of all Christians in that region rather than belittling each other. It is said that Nero fiddled while Rome burned, and then falsely blamed the Christians for the fire unleashing the first of the great persecutions. Let us not 'fiddle' in the face of the real threats to the Faith in the modern world lest we release the same demonic forces that the ancient Romans unleashed.
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« Reply #164 on: November 03, 2010, 04:12:23 PM »

Don't give yourself too much credit - none of your posts have been all that stimulating.  I mean, they clearly haven't reflected any learning done in the course of debate, and instead expose a poorly-clad double standard of accusing others of lack of charity while being uncharitable.  Oh, well.  Good luck with that.
When did I claim that my posts were stimulating? All I said was that I brought up a valid point, which is that there are several EO and OO members on here who are a very poor witness for their faiths.

I always find it fascinating how Ultramontanists take it upon themselves to rate representation of a Faith not their own.

Quote
You are the one reaching centuries back in a vain attempt to spring a gotcha on us Catholics.

Have you repudiated Lateran IV? Lyons I? How is there a Latin Patriarchate in Jerusalem, but not a Eastern "sui juris" one?

Quote
I would think all of the moderation team of this forum would want to silence a few of their more aggressive members.

because it is demanded by the oversensitive ones, who prefer Ultramontanism over Orthodoxy and do not like being called on that?

Quote
It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Orthodoxy.
Yes, well we'll have to somehow survive how you picture us. As how we see your side of the Tiber

This is one of Isa's favorite pictures. See, EOs are more interested in the Papacy than we are.
Oh? I don't see that flag on the left

in Orthodox Chruchs.  Nor has any local Orthodox bishop had to be approved by the Vatican.

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« Reply #165 on: November 03, 2010, 04:23:26 PM »

I agree. We need that Catholic moderator badly.

No.

... and...

No.
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« Reply #166 on: November 05, 2010, 03:53:49 AM »

Russians Plan to Sack Rome (USP, November 4,2010).  News has leaked out of special Russian paramilitary forces being trained at secret locations in Transbekistan.  Their purpose is the sacking of Rome and Venice, Florence and other major Italian cities as well as those of France and Germany should it becomes apparent that the forces of Islam, political or military, are about to take possession of these countries.  The Russian Government intends to rescue the priceless artistic treasures of Italy and Western Europe.  Islam, known for its iconoclasm, may wish to destroy these items.  Some Russian advisors are advising that there should be a pre-emptive strike in the near future rather than wait for the Islamic threat to grow any stronger.  His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI who took an oath at his papal election to maintain the treasures of the Vatican will be invited to accompany the works to Russia and accept the position of Supreme Curator at one of the Russian museums which will be built to house them.

The Grand Mufti of Hydrobul has expressed his agreement:  "Da, da, let the Russians take them all away,  We'd only have to destroy them when we take control of Europe anyway.  The Taliban boys would want to blow them all up."

 Smiley
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« Reply #167 on: November 05, 2010, 05:01:47 AM »

Isa,

The point I'm making is it wasn't the desire of the Church to make any military move after Constantinople. I'll admit, after the deed was done, the Pope used the current situation to the Catholic Church advantage. Probably knowing, without means of communication beyond foot, trying to reconcile what had been done and then moving forward with unification would be that much harder. As you can see, the event hasn't been forgotten even 800 years later.

And as had been explained, there is a reason it hasn't been forgotten. The event epitomizes a Latin attitude that persists to this day. Just look at how the Vatican treats its fellow Eastern Catholics.

You're projecting the attitude, IMHO.
No, just noticing for instance the projection of the Vatican's mandated clerical celibacy, for instance, on everywhere outside majority Orthodox countries (where its ruse is obvious, and it can't get away with such antics).

Clerical celibacy is a discipline for all priests in the Catholic Church, not just Bishops as in the Orthodox Church (as you are well aware). Since they are in the Catholic Church, there was a period when that discipline was desired throughout the Church. Why? Because, while you see the Easter Catholics as hostage Orthodox under the Pope, the ECs are in reality a member of the greater Catholic Church. Therefore, the discipline had been pushed universally. Of course, there are also ECs that prefer to keep the Eastern discipline. Just as there are Latin Catholics that want to adopt the Eastern discipline.
Is it legitimate for the Eastern Orthodox to reject any union with the Roman Catholic Church because of a fear of latinisation?  If they point to what happened to the Eastern Catholic Church and the claims of the Pope of Rome to Supreme universal jurisdiction over the entire Church, then what should be the response of Catholics?
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« Reply #168 on: November 05, 2010, 05:06:41 AM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!
There can be no imposition of clerical celibacy in the eastern Catholic Churches except that which is willing accepted by their Metropolitans.
.
Is that really true? I ask because I thougth that a while back, the metropolitans in the USA of the Ruthenian Church asked for a lifting of the mandatory celibacy rule for the USA and it was denied by the Vatican?
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« Reply #169 on: November 05, 2010, 05:16:44 AM »

^ You seem to think that the Catholic Church following it's own ecclesiology means oppressing all things eastern. That, again, is stupid. You have your ecclesiology. We have ours.

Catholic ecclesiology unfortunately is lacking in how the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churhces relate and this is what the Eastern Bishops at the Middle East Synod were complaining about.  The Pope has the primacy to defend the rights of all Churches, not so he can micromanage Eastern Churches when it is good for the Latin Church.  Case in point: Married priests in the diaspora.  Most, but not all, Eastern Churches have resumed ordaining married men whether the Rome or Latin bishops like it.  Rome has said nothing and that is the problem.  The Pope should apologize for his predecessors ever restricting the ordination of married men in the Eastern Churches and state unequivocally it is the right of Eastern Churches to ordain married men everywhere.  Latin bishops should be told catechize their faithful and not complain they will be scandalized, which is a cop out.  Patriarchs should be given immediate jurisdiction over their faithful everywhere in the world.  Why is the Latin Church the only sui iuris church without territorial limitation?  The Congregation for Eastern Churches should be abolished.  It is disrespectful for Patriarchs to be reporting to Cardinals.  Setting aside doctrinal issues, these three disciplinary issues are a major roadblock the Eastern Orthodox  would never accept.  Lets take care of these things so they can see Rome is serious about reunion.  If Rome doesn't, all the talk about return to tradition is lip service.

Dear Father Deacon,

I agree with you here, with one reservation.  It seems to me that our bishops and metropolitans have an obligation to be polite to the curial secretariat, but being polite is not the same thing as yielding every time the curial offices try to meddle in the affairs of the eastern Churches.  

At any time our Metropolitan Archbishops could have thanked the Secretary of any of the Curial offices and told them that the matter would be taken up in the local synod.  Till then, it would be business as usual in the running of each particular Church.

Eastern Catholic leadership has wandered its way onto the rocks,  ever more surely than they were dragged there kicking and screaming.

And that is where you and I differ.

Mary
The question I see  is whether or not the Pope of Rome claims to have or actually does have Supreme universal jurisdiction over the entire Catholic Church?
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« Reply #170 on: November 05, 2010, 05:22:56 AM »

The best the Pope can do is pray for the dead.  
There are other things that the Pope can do. For example, he can ask for a return of all of the stolen artifacts to the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #171 on: November 05, 2010, 07:07:46 AM »

I think that you guys forget that not only Italians sacked Constantinople, but Arabs, Rusins, Bulgarians..etc.
Do you forget the wars which the Bulgarians fought against the Greeks? Why did the Greeks enslave the Bulgarians?
.
Quote
In 1018 Emperor Basil II Bulgaroctonus conquered Bulgaria and made it a province of the Byzantine Empire.

http://www.omda.bg/engl/history/common_hist.htm#the%20first%20Bulgarian%20kingdom (1)

The idea, the ideologies of a divine Byzantine Empire are just a myth because it was nothing other than just another autocratic, imperialist empire. The idealisation of the Byzantine period, of the Eastern Roman Empire by the Russian philosophers of the 19th century were just an argument to support the injustice of the Tsarist Empire. This mode of thought has created a mythology which underlies Orthodox religious thought. There have been enough essays on the wrongs of Catholics believing in the ancien regime but very few want to underline that the Orthodox view of history is nothing but a piecemeal collage of moralising propaganda for Russian Imperialism. The theory of transmutation of Byzantium to Russia was invented to provide reasoning for the future conquests of China, Central Asia, India and Persia. Sadly the Orthodox are in reaction to the modern world, believing that the moralising imperialist spirituality of the 19th century is the authentic faith of Christ. This entrenchment not in theological Tradition but in historical propaganda prevents the Orthodox Church from claiming the allegiance of its faithful, who prefer faith healers and New Age to Christianity.

Imperialism is blind, is the moral of the story. The Byzantine Greek lust of power is not Christian in any way. The prospering civilisations which are destroyed by imperialist aggressors, are as we are told by the invaders, are either imaginery or temporary, for we must believe that the Empire shall last forever.(2)




1.
Quote
In 681 AD the Bulgars defeated the Byzantine army and united themselves with the Slavonic tribes against the Byzantines, founding the first Bulgarian state. This new state was governed by a khan with the help of Slavic and Bulgar princes. There was a period of assimilation for 200 years which created a nationality which took the name of the Bulgar but culturally was strongly influenced by Slavonic civilisation.
...
Khan Simeon defeated the Byzantine army at Aheloi in 917 which led to the annexation of Macedonia and Thrace. The reigns of Petar 1 (927-69) and Boris II (969-71) were marked by increasingly violent conflicts among the nobility. Byzantium also posed a constant threat. Religious unrest was also evident. Bulgarians began to question Christian teachings as they heard them in their own language. The Bogomils of Bulgaria were a religious sect who practised a radical dualistic doctrine, severe asceticism and imitation of the apostles' lives. The Kathari sect which spread to France and Italy developed out of this doctrine. A full-scale onslaught by Byzantium reduced the Bulgarian Kingdom to a rump known as the Western Kingdom which was ruled from Ohrid. Khan Samil was responsible for partly restoring the old kingdom until he died after the battle of Strumnitsa in 1014. Ohrid was captured in 1018 and the whole of Bulgaria became a Byzantine province.
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/index.htm
2.
 
Quote
In his Chronicle, the 12th-century Michael the Syrian, patriarch of the Syrian Jacobites, described the brutalities and atrocities of Nikephoros. "Nikephoros, emperor of the Romans, walked into the Bulgarians' land: he was victorious and killed great number of them. He reached their capital, seized it and devastated it. His savagery went to the point that he ordered to bring their small children, got them tied down on earth and made thresh grain stones to smash them."
Quote
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« Reply #172 on: November 05, 2010, 10:12:02 AM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!
There can be no imposition of clerical celibacy in the eastern Catholic Churches except that which is willing accepted by their Metropolitans.
.
Is that really true? I ask because I thougth that a while back, the metropolitans in the USA of the Ruthenian Church asked for a lifting of the mandatory celibacy rule for the USA and it was denied by the Vatican?
Yes. The Melkites just ignore the ban, as they cannot get it lifted.  The Maronites tried to lift it, and on the basis of one (1) bishop out of the Maronite episcopate, the Vatican denied it.

This is the reason why we are not fooled by what the Vatican says, especially to us.  We look at what it does, especially to its "sui juris" ecclesiastical communities.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #173 on: November 05, 2010, 10:52:04 AM »

Quote
Do you forget the wars which the Bulgarians fought against the Greeks?

Evidently people have forgotten what Orthodox Christians did to each other in the 20th century.  Look what happened in Macedonia after the Balkan wars.
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« Reply #174 on: November 05, 2010, 12:12:19 PM »

I think that you guys forget that not only Italians sacked Constantinople, but Arabs, Rusins, Bulgarians..etc.

No, Arabs laid seige to Constantinople.  They never sacked it, one reason being that the Christian Arabs in defected from the caliph's army to Constantinople's side, one such Arab became Leo III Emperor of the Romans.

The Rus' seige predated the foundation of the Kievan Rus' state, let alone its baptism.

The Bulgarians fought for Constantinople against the Muslim siege of Constantinople in 717. The only siege they prosecuted against (rather for) the capital was with the Romanians and Romans against the Latin usurpers occupying the city in 1235, the Orthodox joining forces against the Ultramontanist heretics to restore the rightful patriarch on the throne that the Crusaders put a (literal) whore on.

Besides the Turks, only the Latins sacked Constantinople.

Quote
Do you forget the wars which the Bulgarians fought against the Greeks?

No.

Quote
Why did the Greeks enslave the Bulgarians?

Pagan or Orthodox?
.
Quote
The idea, the ideologies of a divine Byzantine Empire are just a myth because it was nothing other than just another autocratic, imperialist empire. The idealisation of the Byzantine period, of the Eastern Roman Empire by the Russian philosophers of the 19th century were just an argument to support the injustice of the Tsarist Empire. This mode of thought has created a mythology which underlies Orthodox religious thought. There have been enough essays on the wrongs of Catholics believing in the ancien regime but very few want to underline that the Orthodox view of history is nothing but a piecemeal collage of moralising propaganda for Russian Imperialism. The theory of transmutation of Byzantium to Russia was invented to provide reasoning for the future conquests of China, Central Asia, India and Persia. Sadly the Orthodox are in reaction to the modern world, believing that the moralising imperialist spirituality of the 19th century is the authentic faith of Christ. This entrenchment not in theological Tradition but in historical propaganda prevents the Orthodox Church from claiming the allegiance of its faithful, who prefer faith healers and New Age to Christianity.

Imperialism is blind, is the moral of the story. The Byzantine Greek lust of power is not Christian in any way. The prospering civilisations which are destroyed by imperialist aggressors, are as we are told by the invaders, are either imaginery or temporary, for we must believe that the Empire shall last forever.(2)

You obviously quote someone here but do not cite them, so I'll hold off addressing this propaganda until you do so, or put it in your own words. In particular I'm interested in what "injustice of the Tsarist Empire" your source is alleging: that rather than the Polish supported and related Sviatopolk the Accused fraticide and False Dmitry ruling as Tsar of All the Rus', the Tsar of All the Rus' ruled as King of Poland?

A problem is that the "idealisation" it decries predates the foundation of the Rus' state and even the Rus' Khaganate.

Quote
1.
Quote
In 681 AD the Bulgars defeated the Byzantine army and united themselves with the Slavonic tribes against the Byzantines, founding the first Bulgarian state. This new state was governed by a khan with the help of Slavic and Bulgar princes. There was a period of assimilation for 200 years which created a nationality which took the name of the Bulgar but culturally was strongly influenced by Slavonic civilisation.
...
Khan Simeon defeated the Byzantine army at Aheloi in 917 which led to the annexation of Macedonia and Thrace. The reigns of Petar 1 (927-69) and Boris II (969-71) were marked by increasingly violent conflicts among the nobility. Byzantium also posed a constant threat. Religious unrest was also evident. Bulgarians began to question Christian teachings as they heard them in their own language. The Bogomils of Bulgaria were a religious sect who practised a radical dualistic doctrine, severe asceticism and imitation of the apostles' lives. The Kathari sect which spread to France and Italy developed out of this doctrine. A full-scale onslaught by Byzantium reduced the Bulgarian Kingdom to a rump known as the Western Kingdom which was ruled from Ohrid. Khan Samil was responsible for partly restoring the old kingdom until he died after the battle of Strumnitsa in 1014. Ohrid was captured in 1018 and the whole of Bulgaria became a Byzantine province.
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/index.htm
2.
 
Quote
In his Chronicle, the 12th-century Michael the Syrian, patriarch of the Syrian Jacobites, described the brutalities and atrocities of Nikephoros. "Nikephoros, emperor of the Romans, walked into the Bulgarians' land: he was victorious and killed great number of them. He reached their capital, seized it and devastated it. His savagery went to the point that he ordered to bring their small children, got them tied down on earth and made thresh grain stones to smash them."
Quote
And what did Krum do with Nikephoros? How does Nikephoros I go down in the annuals of the Greek Roman historians? How did the Romans describe him?
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« Reply #175 on: November 05, 2010, 04:53:14 PM »

I think that you guys forget that not only Italians sacked Constantinople, but Arabs, Rusins, Bulgarians..etc.
Do you forget the wars which the Bulgarians fought against the Greeks? Why did the Greeks enslave the Bulgarians?
.
Quote
In 1018 Emperor Basil II Bulgaroctonus conquered Bulgaria and made it a province of the Byzantine Empire.

http://www.omda.bg/engl/history/common_hist.htm#the%20first%20Bulgarian%20kingdom (1)

The idea, the ideologies of a divine Byzantine Empire are just a myth because it was nothing other than just another autocratic, imperialist empire. The idealisation of the Byzantine period, of the Eastern Roman Empire by the Russian philosophers of the 19th century were just an argument to support the injustice of the Tsarist Empire. This mode of thought has created a mythology which underlies Orthodox religious thought. There have been enough essays on the wrongs of Catholics believing in the ancien regime but very few want to underline that the Orthodox view of history is nothing but a piecemeal collage of moralising propaganda for Russian Imperialism. The theory of transmutation of Byzantium to Russia was invented to provide reasoning for the future conquests of China, Central Asia, India and Persia. Sadly the Orthodox are in reaction to the modern world, believing that the moralising imperialist spirituality of the 19th century is the authentic faith of Christ. This entrenchment not in theological Tradition but in historical propaganda prevents the Orthodox Church from claiming the allegiance of its faithful, who prefer faith healers and New Age to Christianity.

Imperialism is blind, is the moral of the story. The Byzantine Greek lust of power is not Christian in any way. The prospering civilisations which are destroyed by imperialist aggressors, are as we are told by the invaders, are either imaginery or temporary, for we must believe that the Empire shall last forever.(2)




1.
Quote
In 681 AD the Bulgars defeated the Byzantine army and united themselves with the Slavonic tribes against the Byzantines, founding the first Bulgarian state. This new state was governed by a khan with the help of Slavic and Bulgar princes. There was a period of assimilation for 200 years which created a nationality which took the name of the Bulgar but culturally was strongly influenced by Slavonic civilisation.
...
Khan Simeon defeated the Byzantine army at Aheloi in 917 which led to the annexation of Macedonia and Thrace. The reigns of Petar 1 (927-69) and Boris II (969-71) were marked by increasingly violent conflicts among the nobility. Byzantium also posed a constant threat. Religious unrest was also evident. Bulgarians began to question Christian teachings as they heard them in their own language. The Bogomils of Bulgaria were a religious sect who practised a radical dualistic doctrine, severe asceticism and imitation of the apostles' lives. The Kathari sect which spread to France and Italy developed out of this doctrine. A full-scale onslaught by Byzantium reduced the Bulgarian Kingdom to a rump known as the Western Kingdom which was ruled from Ohrid. Khan Samil was responsible for partly restoring the old kingdom until he died after the battle of Strumnitsa in 1014. Ohrid was captured in 1018 and the whole of Bulgaria became a Byzantine province.
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/index.htm
2.
 
Quote
In his Chronicle, the 12th-century Michael the Syrian, patriarch of the Syrian Jacobites, described the brutalities and atrocities of Nikephoros. "Nikephoros, emperor of the Romans, walked into the Bulgarians' land: he was victorious and killed great number of them. He reached their capital, seized it and devastated it. His savagery went to the point that he ordered to bring their small children, got them tied down on earth and made thresh grain stones to smash them."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krum


There is a question even today as to whether Macedonia should be considered Bulgarian or Greek territory, and as well there are those who say it should be independent.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 05:07:16 PM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #176 on: November 05, 2010, 05:05:41 PM »


St. Alexis Toth, pray for us all!
There can be no imposition of clerical celibacy in the eastern Catholic Churches except that which is willing accepted by their Metropolitans.
.
Is that really true? I ask because I thougth that a while back, the metropolitans in the USA of the Ruthenian Church asked for a lifting of the mandatory celibacy rule for the USA and it was denied by the Vatican?
Yes. The Melkites just ignore the ban, as they cannot get it lifted.  The Maronites tried to lift it, and on the basis of one (1) bishop out of the Maronite episcopate, the Vatican denied it.

This is the reason why we are not fooled by what the Vatican says, especially to us.  We look at what it does, especially to its "sui juris" ecclesiastical communities.
Latinisation of the Eastern Catholic Churches does seem to be problematical and a legitimate question.
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« Reply #177 on: November 05, 2010, 05:55:27 PM »

Yes. The Melkites just ignore the ban, as they cannot get it lifted.  The Maronites tried to lift it, and on the basis of one (1) bishop out of the Maronite episcopate, the Vatican denied it.

This is the reason why we are not fooled by what the Vatican says, especially to us.  We look at what it does, especially to its "sui juris" ecclesiastical communities.

There is no ban to lift as the CCEO abrogated all previous legislation.  The previous ban applied only to the US, Canada, and Australia.  Further more the ban was not renewed when it expired in the 1950, the Eastern Catholic Churches simply kept obeying until the 80s, with Ukrainians and Melkites ordaining candidates in the US and Canada as well importing them from the old country.  The Ruthenian Metropolia is in a unique situation.  When the CCEO came out, each sui iuris Church was to promulgate particular law to complement it.  The original Ruthenian particular law codified that married men could again be ordained and this was approved by Rome.  One of our priests leaked this before the law was promulgated and Latin Catholic news sources ran with it portraying it as somekind of rebellion and Rome halted promulgation and we ended up with what we have now: we are supposed to submit married candidate to Rome for approval before ordination.  Supposedly this is being doen to prevent Latin men from transfering to our Church to get ordained.  But as I stated earlier, we shouldn't have to ask for approval or ask Rome to remain silent like we are doing something less than optimal, Rome should being giving this its full support.  Until it does you have every right to remain suspicious.
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