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Author Topic: Sharing sacraments?  (Read 11246 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2010, 05:33:28 PM »

The Church, according to the Creed, is Holy. Christ will ask us have we been members of Her.
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« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2010, 01:37:38 AM »

The Church, according to the Creed, is Holy. Christ will ask us have we been members of Her.
I don't see in the New Testament where Jesus has said that you have to belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church. What I read is this: Matthew 25:
[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
 
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« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2010, 01:47:43 AM »

The Church, according to the Creed, is Holy. Christ will ask us have we been members of Her.
I don't see in the New Testament where Jesus has said that you have to belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church. What I read is this: Matthew 25:
[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

The Unitarian Universalists are fond of that lection.

"He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16
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« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2010, 04:23:24 AM »

The Church, according to the Creed, is Holy. Christ will ask us have we been members of Her.
I don't see in the New Testament where Jesus has said that you have to belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church. What I read is this: Matthew 25:
[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

The Unitarian Universalists are fond of that lection.

They also like to quote the Our Father, otherwise known as the Lord's Prayer.
In any case, I don't see here or anywhere else in the New Testament where Jesus says that He will ask you  if you are a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2010, 04:47:26 AM »

In any case, I don't see here or anywhere else in the New Testament where Jesus says that He will ask you  if you are a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Are you a Baptist?
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« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2010, 05:45:47 AM »

In any case, I don't see here or anywhere else in the New Testament where Jesus says that He will ask you  if you are a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Are you a Baptist?
Whether I am a Unitarian, Baptist, Episcopalian, Jehovah's witness, Jew, Muslim, Hindhu  or Buddhist is irrelevant to what Jesus is quoted as saying in Matthew 25. Do you or do you not accept the words of Our Divine Lord and Savior as written in Matthew 25? Do you see that He does not say that He is going to ask anyone if they are a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church? Can you read and do you accept what He says are His criteria for salvation?
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« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2010, 05:55:40 AM »

Do you thinks that's all the criteria and nothing more is needed?
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« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2010, 06:11:14 AM »

Do you thinks that's all the criteria and nothing more is needed?
Let me answer your question this way:
Here is my personal opinion on the question:
I don't believe that Jesus will ask Mother Theresa why she did not become a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church. And for the sake of the discussion, let us suppose that she did convert to the Eastern Orthodox Church. Would that have affected  her status in heaven, so that she would get a better deal, so to speak? I don't see anything in the New Testament which indicates that Mother Theresa would have a higher status in heaven if she had converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2010, 07:28:50 AM »

I don't see anything in the New Testament which indicates that Mother Theresa would have a higher status in heaven if she had converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I don't see anything in the New Testament which indicates that Mother Teresa would have a lower status in heaven if she had converted to the Baptist Church.
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« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2010, 10:36:58 AM »

The Church, according to the Creed, is Holy. Christ will ask us have we been members of Her.
I don't see in the New Testament where Jesus has said that you have to belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church. What I read is this: Matthew 25:
[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

The Unitarian Universalists are fond of that lection.

They also like to quote the Our Father, otherwise known as the Lord's Prayer.

Actually, no, they do not. Too Christian. But what was your point?

Quote
In any case, I don't see here or anywhere else in the New Testament where Jesus says that He will ask you  if you are a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" John 14:6.
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« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2010, 10:47:56 AM »

In any case, I don't see here or anywhere else in the New Testament where Jesus says that He will ask you  if you are a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Are you a Baptist?
Whether I am a Unitarian, Baptist, Episcopalian, Jehovah's witness, Jew, Muslim, Hindhu  or Buddhist is irrelevant to what Jesus is quoted as saying in Matthew 25.

The Unitarian, Jehovah's witness, Jew, Muslim, Hindhu and Buddhist do not accept Him as Our Divine Lord and Savior and do not accept His words, and there is question about the Baptist and Episcopalian.

Quote
Do you or do you not accept the words of Our Divine Lord and Savior as written in Matthew 25?

Do you not accept the words of Our Divine Lord and Savior as written in John 3? "“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”"

Quote
Do you see that He does not say that He is going to ask anyone if they are a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

I'm sorrry, where does it say that Matthew 25 is the whole of the Gospel? In the Evangelikon we have the rest of Matthew and the other three Gospels.  Unitarian Universalists like to ignore that gentle Jesus has plenty to say about hellfire, and like to blame St. Paul, the Apostle of Faith (i.e. the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church), although St. Paul doesn't take about hell at all.

Quote
Can you read and do you accept what He says are His criteria for salvation?
We do. We just read and accept what those uncomfortable with what He says are His criteria for salvation.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2010, 10:49:50 AM »

I've read and heard it said that "there is no salvation outside the Church."  Now, depending upon who is saying that, "the Church" could be either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church.  Or the Oriental Orthodox Church, or the Baptist Church, or the whatever Church.  I suppose the meaning here is the One Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic Church.  And just what does *that* consist of?  Oops, here we go again  Grin

I've also heard it said that if there is salvation outside the Church [and why, really, would there NOT be??], we (as in those *inside* the Church) do not know how that happens.  Which is not to day that it *cannot* happen, just that "we" don't know how it happens.  You know, "We know where the Holy Spirit *is* (as in "the Church") but we do not know where He is not."

Comments?
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« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2010, 10:55:01 AM »

Do you thinks that's all the criteria and nothing more is needed?
Let me answer your question this way:
Here is my personal opinion on the question:
I don't believe that Jesus will ask Mother Theresa why she did not become a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church. And for the sake of the discussion, let us suppose that she did convert to the Eastern Orthodox Church. Would that have affected  her status in heaven, so that she would get a better deal, so to speak? I don't see anything in the New Testament which indicates that Mother Theresa would have a higher status in heaven if she had converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Let me answer you this way.
The Agha Khan claims to be the successor of Muhammad and the manifestation of God and Lord of the Age.  He operates a vast array of philantropic endevors throughout the world. He also has moved to bring his followers more in line with more mainstream Islam.  He has even visted Mt. Athos: would he have a higher status (rather hard, as his followers pray to him as God) if he converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2010, 12:24:55 PM »

I was raised as a Greek Orthodox Christian. I was taught the Gospel and how our faith is in Jesus as our savior rising from the dead for our sins . I was never taught and it is never spoken about in Church or in sermons that my faith is an Eastern Orthodox faith only. And if they would I imagine many would find that suspect.

However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ , I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

I read the Bible and have understanding of it from many different sources. I try and use all of them to help me understand the answers we all seek. This is what I believe God wants all of us to do as one Church. I will continue to respect the differences that we have while I also will attend any church that believes in the Bible .
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« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2010, 12:29:26 PM »

We have many new posters who think they know what God wants.
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« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2010, 01:07:37 PM »

I was raised as a Greek Orthodox Christian. I was taught the Gospel and how our faith is in Jesus as our savior rising from the dead for our sins . I was never taught and it is never spoken about in Church or in sermons that my faith is an Eastern Orthodox faith only. And if they would I imagine many would find that suspect.

However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ ,

Then you are Protestant. When I learned that the teaching of His Apostles that you cannot call God Father unless you calll the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church mother, and cannot have Christ as your Head if you are not a member of that Church, His Body, I left Protestantism and embraced the Orthodox Faith of the Apostles.

From the time of Christs Ascension and until his return the Apostles and their successors the Orthodox bishops have told you are not supposed to partake of their communion. But you do what you conscience tells you, if that's what is speaking.

Quote
I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago
And the 1000 years since then.
Quote
and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

And one supreme pontiff, whose communion you have entered.

The Mormons have the same Gospels (and "another" as well) but they believe in a pluarlity of gods. On your criteria, why don't you commune with them?

Quote
I read the Bible and have understanding of it from many different sources.

Quote
I try and use all of them to help me understand the answers we all seek. This is what I believe God wants all of us to do as one Church. I will continue to respect the differences that we have while I also will attend any church that believes in the Bible.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2010, 04:17:05 PM »

I was raised as a Greek Orthodox Christian. I was taught the Gospel and how our faith is in Jesus as our savior rising from the dead for our sins . I was never taught and it is never spoken about in Church or in sermons that my faith is an Eastern Orthodox faith only. And if they would I imagine many would find that suspect.

However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ ,

Then you are Protestant. When I learned that the teaching of His Apostles that you cannot call God Father unless you calll the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church mother, and cannot have Christ as your Head if you are not a member of that Church, His Body, I left Protestantism and embraced the Orthodox Faith of the Apostles.

From the time of Christs Ascension and until his return the Apostles and their successors the Orthodox bishops have told you are not supposed to partake of their communion. But you do what you conscience tells you, if that's what is speaking.

Quote
I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago
And the 1000 years since then.
Quote
and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

And one supreme pontiff, whose communion you have entered.

The Mormons have the same Gospels (and "another" as well) but they believe in a pluarlity of gods. On your criteria, why don't you commune with them?

Quote
I read the Bible and have understanding of it from many different sources.

Quote
I try and use all of them to help me understand the answers we all seek. This is what I believe God wants all of us to do as one Church. I will continue to respect the differences that we have while I also will attend any church that believes in the Bible.


I call for unity under one church as Jesus said to love all and you find divisiveness in all you say.
I Am humbled by your attack on me and dismayed at you lack of mercy and compassion for what I meant as openness for all.

< Luke 6:42 >>
   
New International Version (©1984)
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
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« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2010, 04:26:53 PM »

Dear Sinful Hypocrite,

Welcome to the wonderful world of Orthodoxy, especially the internet version  Grin.  Yup.  One.  Holy.  And far from undivided. Cry 

But I guess that's not just Orthodoxy, is it?  Everything that isn't God, I think, is like that.  Or am I just too cynical anymore?
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« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2010, 04:29:48 PM »

I was raised as a Greek Orthodox Christian. I was taught the Gospel and how our faith is in Jesus as our savior rising from the dead for our sins . I was never taught and it is never spoken about in Church or in sermons that my faith is an Eastern Orthodox faith only. And if they would I imagine many would find that suspect.

However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ , I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

I read the Bible and have understanding of it from many different sources. I try and use all of them to help me understand the answers we all seek. This is what I believe God wants all of us to do as one Church. I will continue to respect the differences that we have while I also will attend any church that believes in the Bible .

Yes. I agree with you to some extent.
There are so many beliefs that RC and EO hold in common. However, the problem is that there are a few sore points of disagreement, and my understanding is that the EO believe them to be serious and in need of clarification before any intercommunion would take place. Such as for example, the RC doctrine on the Supreme Universal jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff. This might appear to have the effect of making the Eastern Patriarchs subservient to the Roman Pontiff in a way that was not in effect before the split which took place in 1054.
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« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2010, 08:26:26 PM »

I was raised as a Greek Orthodox Christian. I was taught the Gospel and how our faith is in Jesus as our savior rising from the dead for our sins . I was never taught and it is never spoken about in Church or in sermons that my faith is an Eastern Orthodox faith only. And if they would I imagine many would find that suspect.

However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ ,

Then you are Protestant. When I learned that the teaching of His Apostles that you cannot call God Father unless you calll the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church mother, and cannot have Christ as your Head if you are not a member of that Church, His Body, I left Protestantism and embraced the Orthodox Faith of the Apostles.

From the time of Christs Ascension and until his return the Apostles and their successors the Orthodox bishops have told you are not supposed to partake of their communion. But you do what you conscience tells you, if that's what is speaking.

Quote
I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago
And the 1000 years since then.
Quote
and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

And one supreme pontiff, whose communion you have entered.

The Mormons have the same Gospels (and "another" as well) but they believe in a pluarlity of gods. On your criteria, why don't you commune with them?

Quote
I read the Bible and have understanding of it from many different sources.

Quote
I try and use all of them to help me understand the answers we all seek. This is what I believe God wants all of us to do as one Church. I will continue to respect the differences that we have while I also will attend any church that believes in the Bible.


I call for unity under one church as Jesus said to love all and you find divisiveness in all you say.
I Am humbled by your attack on me and dismayed at you lack of mercy and compassion for what I meant as openness for all.

< Luke 6:42 >>
   
New International Version (©1984)
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Perhaps openness for all wasn't and isn't what you meant it to be. 
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« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2010, 09:32:46 PM »

Dear Sinful Hypocrite,

Welcome to the wonderful world of Orthodoxy, especially the internet version  Grin.  Yup.  One.  Holy.  And far from undivided. Cry 

But I guess that's not just Orthodoxy, is it?  Everything that isn't God, I think, is like that.  Or am I just too cynical anymore?

Yes it is with dismay I realize that I found that out in short order.  Of course there is light in the tunnel my friend. There are many who in my parish and family who do not have much love for those others either ,so I am not so surprised.
You are a bit of sunshine in a otherwise hateful issue.Thank you tomowapig.

I was raised as a Greek Orthodox Christian. I was taught the Gospel and how our faith is in Jesus as our savior rising from the dead for our sins . I was never taught and it is never spoken about in Church or in sermons that my faith is an Eastern Orthodox faith only. And if they would I imagine many would find that suspect.

However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ , I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

I read the Bible and have understanding of it from many different sources. I try and use all of them to help me understand the answers we all seek. This is what I believe God wants all of us to do as one Church. I will continue to respect the differences that we have while I also will attend any church that believes in the Bible .

Yes. I agree with you to some extent.
There are so many beliefs that RC and EO hold in common. However, the problem is that there are a few sore points of disagreement, and my understanding is that the EO believe them to be serious and in need of clarification before any intercommunion would take place. Such as for example, the RC doctrine on the Supreme Universal jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff. This might appear to have the effect of making the Eastern Patriarchs subservient to the Roman Pontiff in a way that was not in effect before the split which took place in 1054.

I Realize that it has been a long time but it was close to being given a chance recently. There may be what we think are serious issues but I say it is worse to act as we have for so long . It may not be possible and that is why we are never able to walk as Jesus without sin. We are bickering the same as the disciples did right in front of Jesus
NIV Luke 22:
24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.
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« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2010, 09:42:49 PM »

Dear Sinful Hypocrite,

Welcome to the wonderful world of Orthodoxy, especially the internet version  Grin.  Yup.  One.  Holy.  And far from undivided. Cry 

But I guess that's not just Orthodoxy, is it?  Everything that isn't God, I think, is like that.  Or am I just too cynical anymore?

Yes it is with dismay I realize that I found that out in short order.  Of course there is light in the tunnel my friend. There are many who in my parish and family who do not have much love for those others either ,so I am not so surprised.
You are a bit of sunshine in a otherwise hateful issue.Thank you tomowapig.

I was raised as a Greek Orthodox Christian. I was taught the Gospel and how our faith is in Jesus as our savior rising from the dead for our sins . I was never taught and it is never spoken about in Church or in sermons that my faith is an Eastern Orthodox faith only. And if they would I imagine many would find that suspect.

However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ , I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

I read the Bible and have understanding of it from many different sources. I try and use all of them to help me understand the answers we all seek. This is what I believe God wants all of us to do as one Church. I will continue to respect the differences that we have while I also will attend any church that believes in the Bible .

Yes. I agree with you to some extent.
There are so many beliefs that RC and EO hold in common. However, the problem is that there are a few sore points of disagreement, and my understanding is that the EO believe them to be serious and in need of clarification before any intercommunion would take place. Such as for example, the RC doctrine on the Supreme Universal jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff. This might appear to have the effect of making the Eastern Patriarchs subservient to the Roman Pontiff in a way that was not in effect before the split which took place in 1054.

I Realize that it has been a long time but it was close to being given a chance recently. There may be what we think are serious issues but I say it is worse to act as we have for so long . It may not be possible and that is why we are never able to walk as Jesus without sin. We are bickering the same as the disciples did right in front of Jesus
NIV Luke 22:
24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.
I like your view on this. Thanks.
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2010, 09:47:04 PM »

I was raised as a Greek Orthodox Christian. I was taught the Gospel and how our faith is in Jesus as our savior rising from the dead for our sins . I was never taught and it is never spoken about in Church or in sermons that my faith is an Eastern Orthodox faith only. And if they would I imagine many would find that suspect.

However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ ,

Then you are Protestant. When I learned that the teaching of His Apostles that you cannot call God Father unless you calll the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church mother, and cannot have Christ as your Head if you are not a member of that Church, His Body, I left Protestantism and embraced the Orthodox Faith of the Apostles.

From the time of Christs Ascension and until his return the Apostles and their successors the Orthodox bishops have told you are not supposed to partake of their communion. But you do what you conscience tells you, if that's what is speaking.

Quote
I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago
And the 1000 years since then.
Quote
and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

And one supreme pontiff, whose communion you have entered.

The Mormons have the same Gospels (and "another" as well) but they believe in a pluarlity of gods. On your criteria, why don't you commune with them?

Quote
I read the Bible and have understanding of it from many different sources.

Quote
I try and use all of them to help me understand the answers we all seek. This is what I believe God wants all of us to do as one Church. I will continue to respect the differences that we have while I also will attend any church that believes in the Bible.


I call for unity under one church as Jesus said to love all and you find divisiveness in all you say.
I Am humbled by your attack on me and dismayed at you lack of mercy and compassion for what I meant as openness for all.

< Luke 6:42 >>
   
New International Version (©1984)
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Perhaps openness for all wasn't and isn't what you meant it to be. 

First of all I said anyone who believes in the Bible , not any mention of the book of Mormon .

Secondly we are supposed to love even our enemies. The ones  I mentioned standing up for weddings with my freinds such as Catholics are very much the same as us so they would be just neighbors who we are to love as ourselves.

Third Jesus taught us to  be meek and not puffed up like the pharisees who thought they knew better . And forgive them as you want to be forgiven.
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« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2010, 08:56:09 PM »

I call for unity under one church as Jesus said to love all and you find divisiveness in all you say.
Christ calls for Orthodox union with Him in His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Whom do you think I should listen to, you or Him?

Quote
I Am humbled by your attack on me and dismayed at you lack of mercy and compassion for what I meant as openness for all.
Sorry, I don't believe in open marriage, because Christ spoke against it, so I'm not going to stand by as someone wants to prostitute His Bride to anyone who wants a crack at her.

Quote
<< Luke 6:42 >>
   
New International Version (©1984)
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

<<Luke 11:23>>

New International Version (©1984)
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.

While you are straining out gnats and swallowing camels, my planks are not the issue. You take issue with Christ's radiant Church, which is without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.


First of all I said anyone who believes in the Bible , not any mention of the book of Mormon.
The Mormons believe in the Bible, just ask them. Many Muslims will tell you the same claim of theirs. Who are you to judge? Is your eye so plank free that it can see such issues clearly?

Secondly we are supposed to love even our enemies. The ones  I mentioned standing up for weddings with my freinds such as Catholics are very much the same as us so they would be just neighbors who we are to love as ourselves.
Loving our enemies means feeding them, clothing them, etc. It doesn't mean giving them the keys to our house, letting them have their way with our spouses, signing our children over to them, etc.  Just because you stand up at the wedding doesn't mean you get to share the bride with the bridegroom.

Third Jesus taught us to  be meek and not puffed up like the pharisees who thought they knew better . And forgive them as you want to be forgiven.
So you put the successors of the Apostles on the same level as the disciples of the Pharisees.  Christ expressed a diferent view on them:"you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
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« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2010, 09:58:36 AM »



However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ , I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

There are many who believe as you do and thank you for having the courage to speak out!!

I have a comment:

1. If you are going to receive communion in the Catholic Church, when you do, you should then confess it as a disobedience, for in these times of schism, without the blessing of an Orthodox bishop, you are committing the sin of disobedience.  The issue will then arise as to your commitment to be obedient and you may legitimately call upon the primacy of your conscience and the salvation of your soul.   That is not a game as long as you truly desire to be obedient but also want to be obedient to the words of Jesus in the Gospels where he calls for unity in the Body of Christ.  If you believe that your Catholic brothers and sisters are closest to you in faith, and you are not alone in Orthodoxy in believing this, then for the time being the greater weight of the sin of disobedience lies in the willed perpetuation of the schism.

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« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2010, 10:55:27 AM »



However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ , I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

There are many who believe as you do and thank you for having the courage to speak out!!

I have a comment:

1. If you are going to receive communion in the Catholic Church, when you do, you should then confess it as a disobedience, for in these times of schism, without the blessing of an Orthodox bishop, you are committing the sin of disobedience.  The issue will then arise as to your commitment to be obedient and you may legitimately call upon the primacy of your conscience and the salvation of your soul.   That is not a game as long as you truly desire to be obedient but also want to be obedient to the words of Jesus in the Gospels where he calls for unity in the Body of Christ.  If you believe that your Catholic brothers and sisters are closest to you in faith, and you are not alone in Orthodoxy in believing this, then for the time being the greater weight of the sin of disobedience lies in the willed perpetuation of the schism.
2. Have him repent of the sin of presumption while he is at it.

But why not go to an ecclesiastiacl community that doesn't believe intercommunion is disobedience (not to mention apostacy and ignoring the words of Jesus in the Gospels and Revelation where He calls for purity and exclusive loyalty to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Orthodox Body of Christ)?  The Vatican has plenty of churches here. Then he can commune to his heart's content with the Vatican and everyone else he deems to believe in the Bible: we have lots of "Bible Churches"-Baptist, Pentacostal, Evangelical, etc.-that he can commune with too. Oh, dear. Your Vatican doesn't allow that, at least not officially (though her priests used to commune me all the time when I was Lutheran). Didn't your supreme pontiff issue a "motu proprio" clarifying that?  So much for "unity" and "openness to all."

Holding the exclusive loyalty that Christ demands for the unity of His Church is never a sin, nor disobedience.  Weighed in the scales of Orthodoxy, your interpretations are found wanting.
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« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2010, 11:02:08 AM »



However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ , I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

There are many who believe as you do and thank you for having the courage to speak out!!

I have a comment:

1. If you are going to receive communion in the Catholic Church, when you do, you should then confess it as a disobedience, for in these times of schism, without the blessing of an Orthodox bishop, you are committing the sin of disobedience.  The issue will then arise as to your commitment to be obedient and you may legitimately call upon the primacy of your conscience and the salvation of your soul.   That is not a game as long as you truly desire to be obedient but also want to be obedient to the words of Jesus in the Gospels where he calls for unity in the Body of Christ.  If you believe that your Catholic brothers and sisters are closest to you in faith, and you are not alone in Orthodoxy in believing this, then for the time being the greater weight of the sin of disobedience lies in the willed perpetuation of the schism.
2. Have him repent of the sin of presumption while he is at it.

But why not go to an ecclesiastiacl community that doesn't believe intercommunion is disobedience (not to mention apostacy and ignoring the words of Jesus in the Gospels and Revelation where He calls for purity and exclusive loyalty to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Orthodox Body of Christ)?  The Vatican has plenty of churches here. Then he can commune to his heart's content with the Vatican and everyone else he deems to believe in the Bible: we have lots of "Bible Churches"-Baptist, Pentacostal, Evangelical, etc.-that he can commune with too. Oh, dear. Your Vatican doesn't allow that, at least not officially (though her priests used to commune me all the time when I was Lutheran). Didn't your supreme pontiff issue a "motu proprio" clarifying that?  So much for "unity" and "openness to all."

Holding the exclusive loyalty that Christ demands for the unity of His Church is never a sin, nor disobedience.  Weighed in the scales of Orthodoxy, your interpretations are found wanting.

Which Orthodoxy?

The one which knows in its heart that there are grounds for resumption of communion today?

Or the one that will never accept resumption of communion except on its own idiosyncratic terms argued by those who belong to the true Church rather than the one holy catholic and apostolic Church?

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« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2010, 11:24:46 AM »



However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ , I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

There are many who believe as you do and thank you for having the courage to speak out!!

I have a comment:

1. If you are going to receive communion in the Catholic Church, when you do, you should then confess it as a disobedience, for in these times of schism, without the blessing of an Orthodox bishop, you are committing the sin of disobedience.  The issue will then arise as to your commitment to be obedient and you may legitimately call upon the primacy of your conscience and the salvation of your soul.   That is not a game as long as you truly desire to be obedient but also want to be obedient to the words of Jesus in the Gospels where he calls for unity in the Body of Christ.  If you believe that your Catholic brothers and sisters are closest to you in faith, and you are not alone in Orthodoxy in believing this, then for the time being the greater weight of the sin of disobedience lies in the willed perpetuation of the schism.
2. Have him repent of the sin of presumption while he is at it.

But why not go to an ecclesiastiacl community that doesn't believe intercommunion is disobedience (not to mention apostacy and ignoring the words of Jesus in the Gospels and Revelation where He calls for purity and exclusive loyalty to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Orthodox Body of Christ)?  The Vatican has plenty of churches here. Then he can commune to his heart's content with the Vatican and everyone else he deems to believe in the Bible: we have lots of "Bible Churches"-Baptist, Pentacostal, Evangelical, etc.-that he can commune with too. Oh, dear. Your Vatican doesn't allow that, at least not officially (though her priests used to commune me all the time when I was Lutheran). Didn't your supreme pontiff issue a "motu proprio" clarifying that?  So much for "unity" and "openness to all."

Holding the exclusive loyalty that Christ demands for the unity of His Church is never a sin, nor disobedience.  Weighed in the scales of Orthodoxy, your interpretations are found wanting.

Which Orthodoxy?

This Orthodoxy:
a Romanian Orthodox priest invited a Roman Catholic priest to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy of Pentecost.

I read the news that the priest was deposed from priesthood by his bishop, for this co-celebration with a romano-catholic.
Amen! Amen! Amen!

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The one which knows in its heart that there are grounds for resumption of communion today?

No, an Orthodoxy that exists outiside of rather active imaginations and misguided delusions.

Quote
Or the one that will never accept resumption of communion except on its own idiosyncratic terms argued by those who belong to the true Church rather than the one holy catholic and apostolic Church?
The True Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which has and will never accept communion except only on Christ's own Orthodox terms. It's not that hard a concept to grasp: the Vatican made claims similar to the fact of Orthodox communion until its doctrinal drift "developed" its dogma away, in another scheme to hoodwink the Orthodox.
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« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2010, 11:57:34 AM »


The True Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which has and will never accept communion except only on Christ's own Orthodox terms. It's not that hard a concept to grasp: the Vatican made claims similar to the fact of Orthodox communion until its doctrinal drift "developed" its dogma away, in another scheme to hoodwink the Orthodox.

 laugh laugh laugh

Now we are down to the nub of it:  Hoodwinking!!

Good thing your hierarchs don't see it that way or we'd not be discussing anything at all.
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« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2010, 01:37:35 PM »

Eastern Catholics are another issue.

Why?

Because your Church has always treated them as a seperate issue.

Could you elaborate?

I am confused.  In this thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21196.msg492781/topicseen.html#msg492781
you clearly present an understanding of the issue and now act as if you have no idea what I am talking about.
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« Reply #75 on: November 11, 2010, 01:53:09 PM »


The True Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which has and will never accept communion except only on Christ's own Orthodox terms. It's not that hard a concept to grasp: the Vatican made claims similar to the fact of Orthodox communion until its doctrinal drift "developed" its dogma away, in another scheme to hoodwink the Orthodox.

Given the fact that there's been an unceasing habit of intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox regardless of how rigid the denial, one of the other, over all of the centuries since the separation hardened, I think that to claim that the Catholics are the only one with "drift" shows some sort of ignorance of reality at work, certainly an ignorance of what constitutes doctrine in the Catholic Church, some sort of denial of reality in general, and certainly, give the general "drift" of the poster, the refusal to discuss reality on any terms but that which feeds an Orthodox believer's fantasy and sincere hope for the future and one which is not shared by all Orthodox believers or hierarchs.

M.
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« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2010, 02:15:45 PM »


The True Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which has and will never accept communion except only on Christ's own Orthodox terms. It's not that hard a concept to grasp: the Vatican made claims similar to the fact of Orthodox communion until its doctrinal drift "developed" its dogma away, in another scheme to hoodwink the Orthodox.

 laugh laugh laugh

Now we are down to the nub of it:  Hoodwinking!!

Good thing your hierarchs don't see it that way or we'd not be discussing anything at all.
Your hiearchs see it that way, as well as our hierarchs. Hence why those in the East who have submitted to the Vatican are not at the "discussions."
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« Reply #77 on: November 11, 2010, 02:25:33 PM »


The True Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which has and will never accept communion except only on Christ's own Orthodox terms. It's not that hard a concept to grasp: the Vatican made claims similar to the fact of Orthodox communion until its doctrinal drift "developed" its dogma away, in another scheme to hoodwink the Orthodox.

Given the fact that there's been an unceasing habit of intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox regardless of how rigid the denial,
What denial?  The historical record reveals the occurance of behavior for which clergy should and were deposed for.

Quote
one of the other, over all of the centuries since the separation hardened, I think that to claim that the Catholics are the only one with "drift" shows some sort of ignorance of reality at work,


Not being Orthodox, we are quite free to think anything you like, and ignore reality as much as you like, or dare. Reality won't drift in your direction therefrom, though.

Quote
certainly an ignorance of what constitutes doctrine in the Catholic Church, some sort of denial of reality in general, and certainly, give the general "drift" of the poster, the refusal to discuss reality on any terms but that which feeds an Orthodox believer's fantasy and sincere hope for the future and one which is not shared by all Orthodox believers or hierarchs.
Well, name your nameless "more conservative Orthodox clergy" who want to renounce Orthodoxy and embrace Ultramontanism, and we'll deal with them and talk.
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« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2010, 05:24:16 PM »


Given the fact that there's been an unceasing habit of intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox regardless of how rigid the denial,
What denial?  The historical record reveals the occurance of behavior for which clergy should and were deposed for.

Now you sometimes say things which I know other Orthodox here can't really know whether what you are saying is real and true or not, so they believe you simply because you are Orthodox...but what you say here is so far from reality that is actually one of the funnier things you've said.

All of us know or know about someone or several someones who are currently communing Catholics and are not in any danger whatsoever of being deposed...and it has been like that throughout our history together and to suggest that all those who did continue to share the chalice were deposed or are going to be deposed is simply a silly statement.  Some have been, of course, but to suggest it happens to all or even most, just ain't so.

M.
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« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2010, 11:48:58 AM »

All of us know or know about someone or several someones who are currently communing Catholics and are not in any danger whatsoever of being deposed...and it has been like that throughout our history together and to suggest that all those who did continue to share the chalice were deposed or are going to be deposed is simply a silly statement.  Some have been, of course, but to suggest it happens to all or even most, just ain't so.


This is also anecdotal evidence, of course, but based on my experience with a couple of bishops (both GOA and OCA) any priest who knowingly communed non-Orthodox (and continued to do so) would have a lot of 'splaining to do to his Hierarch.
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« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2010, 11:59:41 AM »

All of us know or know about someone or several someones who are currently communing Catholics and are not in any danger whatsoever of being deposed...and it has been like that throughout our history together and to suggest that all those who did continue to share the chalice were deposed or are going to be deposed is simply a silly statement.  Some have been, of course, but to suggest it happens to all or even most, just ain't so.


This is also anecdotal evidence, of course, but based on my experience with a couple of bishops (both GOA and OCA) any priest who knowingly communed non-Orthodox (and continued to do so) would have a lot of 'splaining to do to his Hierarch.

I agree and the more public or flagrant it is, depending one where the jurisdictions are, the more likely it is that a priest or bishop would be disciplined.  That is also fact and I am aware of it and do not think it is a bad thing in fact.

But there are and have always been times and places where there is pretty relaxed inter-communion between canonical Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church.

My point really is that there is no monolithic rejection of the Catholic Church by Orthodoxy to date.

Rejection will either come to be universally,  or we will have to find a way to resume communion.  But this push-me, pull-you that we've done over the centuries is worse than absurd and does need to stop one way or another.

The toxicity that gets squeezed out in conversations such as some of the ones on this board is hardly spiritually healthy...On this, I think we might agree.

In Christ,

M.
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« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2010, 12:51:16 PM »


Given the fact that there's been an unceasing habit of intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox regardless of how rigid the denial,
What denial?  The historical record reveals the occurance of behavior for which clergy should and were deposed for.

Now you sometimes say things which I know other Orthodox here can't really know whether what you are saying is real and true or not, so they believe you simply because you are Orthodox...but what you say here is so far from reality that is actually one of the funnier things you've said.

All of us know or know about someone or several someones who are currently communing Catholics and are not in any danger whatsoever of being deposed...and it has been like that throughout our history together and to suggest that all those who did continue to share the chalice were deposed or are going to be deposed is simply a silly statement.  Some have been, of course, but to suggest it happens to all or even most, just ain't so.
And throughout history there are clerics who have engaged in all sorts of vice with impunity, knowing that they were not going to be called to account by any ecclesiastical or secular authority (recent lawsuits have proved them wrong again on that last part) and evidently do not fear God. So? Pornocratia, rather than Orthodoxy, as communion is not the commonion of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I give plenty of documentation so other Orthodox, and others, can know what I say is true (your problem with official statements and documents duly notted). I would really rather not waste time supplying the documentation of vice covered by the pall, or do you insist on it?

There are areas, for instance, in Syria where intercommunion, intermarriage etc. is very common between Orthodox and those Melkites who are in submission to the Vatican, but that comes out of an "a Pox on Both Romes-Antioch first!" mentality. It hasn't transplanted as far as I have seen to the diaspora (Arab, not Orthodox): hence the directive which I have heard from the priest holding the chalice, written in the Sunday bulletin etc. of every Antiochian parish, convert or craddle, that I have been to, that communion is restricted to Orthodox members who have prepared themselves. There is something similar among those whose forebares after Brest et alia were told that the pope in the Vatican had professed the Orthodox Faith.  I understand that in some areas they use "Pravoslavni" "Orthodox" in the usage you advocate for "Catholic" here.

Such areas are few and far between, and definitely far from the reality of the totality of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2010, 12:59:58 PM »

All of us know or know about someone or several someones who are currently communing Catholics and are not in any danger whatsoever of being deposed...and it has been like that throughout our history together and to suggest that all those who did continue to share the chalice were deposed or are going to be deposed is simply a silly statement.  Some have been, of course, but to suggest it happens to all or even most, just ain't so.


This is also anecdotal evidence, of course, but based on my experience with a couple of bishops (both GOA and OCA) any priest who knowingly communed non-Orthodox (and continued to do so) would have a lot of 'splaining to do to his Hierarch.

I agree and the more public or flagrant it is, depending one where the jurisdictions are, the more likely it is that a priest or bishop would be disciplined.  That is also fact and I am aware of it and do not think it is a bad thing in fact.

But there are and have always been times and places where there is pretty relaxed uncanonical inter-communion between canonical Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church Vatican.

Uncanonical communion of the canonical Orthodox members of the Catholic Church with the Vatican. Interesting picture you paint there.

Quote
My point really is that there is no monolithic rejection of the Catholic Church by Orthodoxy to date.
Just 99%, and 100% on the canonical level.

Quote
Rejection will either come to be universally,  or we will have to find a way to resume communion.


The Holy Synod of Romania has shown us the way.

Quote
But this push-me, pull-you that we've done over the centuries is worse than absurd and does need to stop one way or another.

The Holy Synod of Romania has shown us the way.

Quote
The toxicity that gets squeezed out in conversations such as some of the ones on this board is hardly spiritually healthy...On this, I think we might agree.
It's the silly personal opinions of some being presented as object official reality, and the need to interject heavy doses of reality to prevent the contagion, that makes it so. Like chemo-therapy to stop the spread of cancer.
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« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2010, 01:03:29 PM »

Ialmisry, I see you keep bringing up the Holy Sinod of Romania.

I wonder how familiar you are with the actual relations between the  Orthodox and Greek-Catholic churches in Romania.

The case of Metropolitan Corneanu, for example. I wonder if you know the exact circumstances regarding his relationship with the Orthodox Sinod, as regarding the Greek-Catholic Church.

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« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2010, 01:34:11 PM »

All of us know or know about someone or several someones who are currently communing Catholics and are not in any danger whatsoever of being deposed...and it has been like that throughout our history together and to suggest that all those who did continue to share the chalice were deposed or are going to be deposed is simply a silly statement.  Some have been, of course, but to suggest it happens to all or even most, just ain't so.


This is also anecdotal evidence, of course, but based on my experience with a couple of bishops (both GOA and OCA) any priest who knowingly communed non-Orthodox (and continued to do so) would have a lot of 'splaining to do to his Hierarch.

I agree and the more public or flagrant it is, depending one where the jurisdictions are, the more likely it is that a priest or bishop would be disciplined.  That is also fact and I am aware of it and do not think it is a bad thing in fact.

But there are and have always been times and places where there is pretty relaxed uncanonical inter-communion between canonical Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church Vatican.

Uncanonical Communion of the schismatic Orthodox with the Catholic Church.


You were saying?
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« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2010, 02:42:31 PM »

Ialmisry, I see you keep bringing up the Holy Sinod of Romania.

I wonder how familiar you are with the actual relations between the  Orthodox and Greek-Catholic churches in Romania.

Fairly familiar: the mother of my sons is Romanian, I've been to Romania twice, know Romanian, and I know plenty of Romanians.

The case of Metropolitan Corneanu, for example. I wonder if you know the exact circumstances regarding his relationship with the Orthodox Sinod, as regarding the Greek-Catholic Church.

Yes, but you seem to have something specific in mind:what is it?
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« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2010, 02:46:26 PM »

All of us know or know about someone or several someones who are currently communing Catholics and are not in any danger whatsoever of being deposed...and it has been like that throughout our history together and to suggest that all those who did continue to share the chalice were deposed or are going to be deposed is simply a silly statement.  Some have been, of course, but to suggest it happens to all or even most, just ain't so.


This is also anecdotal evidence, of course, but based on my experience with a couple of bishops (both GOA and OCA) any priest who knowingly communed non-Orthodox (and continued to do so) would have a lot of 'splaining to do to his Hierarch.

I agree and the more public or flagrant it is, depending one where the jurisdictions are, the more likely it is that a priest or bishop would be disciplined.  That is also fact and I am aware of it and do not think it is a bad thing in fact.

But there are and have always been times and places where there is pretty relaxed uncanonical inter-communion between canonical Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church Vatican.
Uncanonical Communion of the schismatic Orthodox with the Catholic Church.
Misquoting again I see:fixed that for you. "Schismatic Orthodox" is an oxymoron btw.

You were saying?
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« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2010, 03:05:15 PM »

But there are and have always been times and places where there is pretty relaxed inter-communion between canonical Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church.
My best guess would be that this is more of a cultural phenomenon than a theological one. Such as was mentioned certain parts of Syria. That is, it doesn't truly represent the normative practice of the Orthodox Church, and is not sanctioned but rather is essentially, thumbing one's nose at authority.

Quote
My point really is that there is no monolithic rejection of the Catholic Church by Orthodoxy to date.
Yes. There has. Of course I can only offer my own experiences and observations, FWIW.
While most Orthodox I know don't think about Catholics or the RCC from one day to the next, (and certainly don't exhibit any of the rabid anti-Catholicism that I have seen on the part of certain evangelicals and Baptists), they most assuredly do not believe that the RCC is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. If they did, or believed that there were not substantive differences, they would, of course, be Catholic and not Orthodox.
The most common prevailing attitude that I have witnessed is not anger, or bitterness or holding grudges, it is an understanding that the RCC and the OC are totally different churches. I've read in more than one place that Orthodox consider the RCC and Protestant Churches two sides of the same coin, more alike than they are different, and totally different from the OC.

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« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2010, 04:38:59 PM »

The specifics that I had in mind, regarding Metropolitan Corneanu's relationship with the bulk of Romanian Orthodox Church's hierarchy are:

1. It's a well known and documented fact that the upper echelons (and not only) of the Romanian Orthodox Church have been cooperant to the communist regime in general and to the secret police Securitate in particular.

Of these people, Metropolitan Corneanu is the among the very few who, after the fall of communism, came out and made a public confession of his colaboration with the Securitate, a public apology to the people he gave information on.

In stark contrast to Metropolitan Corneanu's attitude, the rest of the Romanian Orthodox Church hierarchy has opposed, over the years, all legislative atempts to make the Securitate files public, particulary those of high ranking Church officials.

2. The second point where Metropolitan Corneanu went in opposite directions with the rest of Romanian Orthodox Church concerns the property of the Greek Catholic Church.

As you know, the Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek Catholic, was oulawed by the communists in 1948, and all of it's posessions were given to the Orthodox Church.

Following the fall of the communist regime, the Greek Catholic Church became a legal cult again, and one would expect that the property of wich it was forcibly deposed would be returned ti it. However, 20 years later, the majority of Greek Catholic Cchurches are still being fought over in the courts of law. The orthodox simply refuse to let go, despite these churches having been built by the greek catholic.

Again, in stark conrtast to this attitude stood Metropolitan Corneanu, who, imediatelly after the fall of communism, instructed every parish priest in his eparchy to allow the rightful owners of the churches to take posesions of their property and to begin worshiping in the temples built by their fathers, including the Greek Catholic Catedral in Lugoj.

One need not be a genius to realise that such actions did not make the Metropolitan popular with the rest of the Church. As such, the episode where he dared to aproach the Body and Blood of Christ in the church of the much hated Greek Catholics was the icing on the cake.

By the way, I live 5 minutes away from the very church where the whole thing took place. To this day, acts of vandalism take place there; the Vatican Flag is often ripped from it's place, and not three months ago the main door of the church was set on fire during the night.



Ialmisry, I see you keep bringing up the Holy Sinod of Romania.

I wonder how familiar you are with the actual relations between the  Orthodox and Greek-Catholic churches in Romania.

Fairly familiar: the mother of my sons is Romanian, I've been to Romania twice, know Romanian, and I know plenty of Romanians.

The case of Metropolitan Corneanu, for example. I wonder if you know the exact circumstances regarding his relationship with the Orthodox Sinod, as regarding the Greek-Catholic Church.

Yes, but you seem to have something specific in mind:what is it?


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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2010, 01:54:12 AM »



However, I have partaken communion while standing up in Catholic friends weddings and I mentioned it once to our priest and that is when I found out that I was not supposed to. I told him that I did not agree since I feel we are both waiting to be saved by the same Christ and God. And the catholic mass is about the closest to the Greek orthodox compared to all other Christian churches.He understood and even agreed personally with me but he is bound by vows to uphold the church doctrine

I do not feel I have faith to a church as much as I have Faith in Jesus Christ , I understand the issues that separated us 1000 years ago and wish that we would reconcile our differences. I love my church and feel that it is right in the position that it took over the supreme leader or Pontiff . I know that there were many wrongs done and both sides have valid issues. However we both believe in the same Gospels and there is only one God.

There are many who believe as you do and thank you for having the courage to speak out!!

I have a comment:

1. If you are going to receive communion in the Catholic Church, when you do, you should then confess it as a disobedience, for in these times of schism, without the blessing of an Orthodox bishop, you are committing the sin of disobedience.  The issue will then arise as to your commitment to be obedient and you may legitimately call upon the primacy of your conscience and the salvation of your soul.   That is not a game as long as you truly desire to be obedient but also want to be obedient to the words of Jesus in the Gospels where he calls for unity in the Body of Christ.  If you believe that your Catholic brothers and sisters are closest to you in faith, and you are not alone in Orthodoxy in believing this, then for the time being the greater weight of the sin of disobedience lies in the willed perpetuation of the schism.



Thank you too, however I believe in Jesus above any priest or denomination, maybe this is what he refereed to brother against brother. The difference I see with it is that we are both on the same page as far as being Christians . There are many who are far apart from us and I make them welcome in my house as I will try to love them as myself. I see your point of obedience to my church and you may be right that I should humble myself . My issue is that in my heart I believe Jesus would attend both churches and does every week.I am going to be judged by Jesus and God , my Priest and parishioners , or the bishops will not be there.
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