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tomowapig
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« on: November 01, 2010, 05:27:38 PM »


In another thread on this forum, I referred to the validity of sacraments in the RCC and the OC.  Unless I am misinformed, both recognize the validity of each others' sacraments.  Both recognize that the priesthood and episcopacy of the other derives from valid apostolic succession.  If this is indeed the case, why is it that Catholics will warmly welcome Orthodox Christians to worship with them *and* partake of the sacraments whereas Orthodox Christians will welcome Catholics to worship but *not* partake of the sacraments unless or until they convert?  I wonder what God makes of all that?

Any comments or thoughts about this from those of us who are not God?
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2010, 05:31:51 PM »

In another thread on this forum, I referred to the validity of sacraments in the RCC and the OC.  Unless I am misinformed, both recognize the validity of each others' sacraments.

You are mistaken.

Quote
Both recognize that the priesthood and episcopacy of the other derives from valid apostolic succession.

You are mistaken.

Quote
If this is indeed the case, why is it that Catholics will warmly welcome Orthodox Christians to worship with them *and* partake of the sacraments whereas Orthodox Christians will welcome Catholics to worship but *not* partake of the sacraments unless or until they convert?  I wonder what God makes of all that?

For Orthodox Christians, supposedly, communion means having the same faith. Since Catholics do not have the same faith as the Orthodox, it would be wrong to ignore the differences and commune with them.
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 05:52:50 PM »

The Catholic church would allow an Orthodox to commune. But an Orthodox that actually understood the issue, and was properly catechized, would not partake of a Catholic Eucharist. We are similar, but not the same. The differences may seem slight at first glance, but the issues run deep and are very serious. There may be some Orthodox priests that allow Catholics to partake, I don't know of any personally, but I can't say it is impossible. But the general consensus would be that Catholics can not partake of an Orthodox Eucharist, they are not Orthodox.

Eastern Catholics are another issue, I don't entirely know how that would work. The Eastern Catholic church has much more in common with the Orthodox church than it does with the Roman Catholic church. I would be interested to hear more about that.
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2010, 05:55:07 PM »


In another thread on this forum, I referred to the validity of sacraments in the RCC and the OC.  Unless I am misinformed, both recognize the validity of each others' sacraments.  Both recognize that the priesthood and episcopacy of the other derives from valid apostolic succession.  If this is indeed the case, why is it that Catholics will warmly welcome Orthodox Christians to worship with them *and* partake of the sacraments whereas Orthodox Christians will welcome Catholics to worship but *not* partake of the sacraments unless or until they convert?  I wonder what God makes of all that?

Any comments or thoughts about this from those of us who are not God?

I would quote II Cor. "6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!...17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him," but that would be God.

I don't know what you mean by "welcome Catholics to worship."  I've invited communicants of the Vatican to come, and I wouldn't bar any to come and see, but I wouldn't (barring mixed marriages and other real life situations) suggest to anyone who believes that submission to the Vatican's supreme pontiff is necessary to make a Divine Liturgy valid and licit to make an Orthodox parish his parish, unless he was planning on embracing the Orthodox Faith.

I would go into Christ giving the Orthodox Church the authority to judge, but in the matter you bring up, it is more appropriate to bring up the responsibility of the Orthodox to guard the Holy Mysteries of His Catholic Church.

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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 06:20:29 PM »

Although the OP is specific, the thread title generic.

I am under the impression that the Roman Catholic Church rejects the validity of Anglican sacraments, but that, at least until the mid-20th century, some Orthodox bishops viewed Anglican sacraments as valid and permitted Orthodox faithful to take communion at Anglican parishes. True? Feel free to elaborate.

Does anyone know what the recent Roman Catholic invitation to Anglicans (the Personal Ordinariate) means for the Roman Catholic opinion of Anglican sacraments?
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2010, 06:30:57 PM »


In another thread on this forum, I referred to the validity of sacraments in the RCC and the OC.  Unless I am misinformed, both recognize the validity of each others' sacraments.  Both recognize that the priesthood and episcopacy of the other derives from valid apostolic succession.  If this is indeed the case, why is it that Catholics will warmly welcome Orthodox Christians to worship with them *and* partake of the sacraments whereas Orthodox Christians will welcome Catholics to worship but *not* partake of the sacraments unless or until they convert?  I wonder what God makes of all that?

Any comments or thoughts about this from those of us who are not God?

No, we don't recognize them as having Sacraments.
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2010, 07:01:55 PM »

Eastern Catholics are another issue.

Why?
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 07:04:40 PM »

Eastern Catholics are another issue, I don't entirely know how that would work. The Eastern Catholic church has much more in common with the Orthodox church than it does with the Roman Catholic church. I would be interested to hear more about that.

They are one church.
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 07:49:31 PM »

In another thread on this forum, I referred to the validity of sacraments in the RCC and the OC.  Unless I am misinformed, both recognize the validity of each others' sacraments.  Both recognize that the priesthood and episcopacy of the other derives from valid apostolic succession.  

I'll echo Asteriktos - your assumptions are incorrect.  We don't recognize the sacraments of the RC (using convenient, yet imperfect language) as valid per se, or "as they are, on their own, right now" - otherwise, we'd let RC priests celebrate Vespers or Liturgy in our Churches, for example.  They may be accepted once the people come into Orthodoxy, but there is some situational leeway involved in that, too (i.e. are they coming from Roman or Eastern rite?  Were they SSPX?  Were they promoting dance masses, or traditional ones?)

If this is indeed the case, why is it that Catholics will warmly welcome Orthodox Christians to worship with them *and* partake of the sacraments whereas Orthodox Christians will welcome Catholics to worship but *not* partake of the sacraments unless or until they convert?  

Asteriktos answered this well.
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2010, 07:52:00 PM »

I am under the impression that the Roman Catholic Church rejects the validity of Anglican sacraments, but that, at least until the mid-20th century, some Orthodox bishops viewed Anglican sacraments as valid and permitted Orthodox faithful to take communion at Anglican parishes. True? Feel free to elaborate.

The only documents I've seen that allowed Orthodox Christians to go to Anglican services and participate/partake refer to situations where no Orthodox Church is reachable, at a time when there were less than half of the Orthodox Churches currently found in the US.  I don't think the situation is applicable now.
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2010, 07:57:44 PM »

I am under the impression that the Roman Catholic Church rejects the validity of Anglican sacraments, but that, at least until the mid-20th century, some Orthodox bishops viewed Anglican sacraments as valid and permitted Orthodox faithful to take communion at Anglican parishes. True? Feel free to elaborate.

The only documents I've seen that allowed Orthodox Christians to go to Anglican services and participate/partake refer to situations where no Orthodox Church is reachable, at a time when there were less than half of the Orthodox Churches currently found in the US.  I don't think the situation is applicable now.

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2010, 09:35:36 PM »

I am under the impression that the Roman Catholic Church rejects the validity of Anglican sacraments, but that, at least until the mid-20th century, some Orthodox bishops viewed Anglican sacraments as valid and permitted Orthodox faithful to take communion at Anglican parishes. True? Feel free to elaborate.

The only documents I've seen that allowed Orthodox Christians to go to Anglican services and participate/partake refer to situations where no Orthodox Church is reachable, at a time when there were less than half of the Orthodox Churches currently found in the US.  I don't think the situation is applicable now.

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

IIRC this permission was rescinded not long after after being issued due to Episcopalian/Anglican priests telling Orthodox Christians that there was no need to go to Orthodox parishes at all.
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 09:39:49 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 11:06:09 PM »

I am under the impression that the Roman Catholic Church rejects the validity of Anglican sacraments, but that, at least until the mid-20th century, some Orthodox bishops viewed Anglican sacraments as valid and permitted Orthodox faithful to take communion at Anglican parishes. True? Feel free to elaborate.

The only documents I've seen that allowed Orthodox Christians to go to Anglican services and participate/partake refer to situations where no Orthodox Church is reachable, at a time when there were less than half of the Orthodox Churches currently found in the US.  I don't think the situation is applicable now.

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

IIRC this permission was rescinded not long after after being issued due to Episcopalian/Anglican priests telling Orthodox Christians that there was no need to go to Orthodox parishes at all.

I am certain you have this in mind:

Bishop Raphael Hawaweeny on the Anglicans and Orthodox Baptism

However, I think the Patriarch of Constantinople is said to have recognized Anglican sacraments as late as the 1930's. I cannot locate where I saw that.
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2010, 11:17:55 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Is your preference for RCC over AC based on something specific to their sacraments or on some other (perhaps aesthetic) criteria?

I searched in vain for THGCOEC, but apparently no episcopus vagans has yet trademarked that particular acronym.  Cheesy
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2010, 11:19:11 PM »

I am certain you have this in mind:

Bishop Raphael Hawaweeny on the Anglicans and Orthodox Baptism

However, I think the Patriarch of Constantinople is said to have recognized Anglican sacraments as late as the 1930's. I cannot locate where I saw that.

Perhaps you are thinking of this thread...?
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2010, 11:22:30 PM »

I am certain you have this in mind:

Bishop Raphael Hawaweeny on the Anglicans and Orthodox Baptism

However, I think the Patriarch of Constantinople is said to have recognized Anglican sacraments as late as the 1930's. I cannot locate where I saw that.

Perhaps you are thinking of this thread...?

First, thank you.  Second, your familiarity with the content of this board frightens me.
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2010, 11:29:22 PM »

I am certain you have this in mind:

Bishop Raphael Hawaweeny on the Anglicans and Orthodox Baptism

However, I think the Patriarch of Constantinople is said to have recognized Anglican sacraments as late as the 1930's. I cannot locate where I saw that.

Perhaps you are thinking of this thread...?

First, thank you.  Second, your familiarity with the content of this board frightens me.

Lol, I just remember the conversation, so I searched for something like "Anglican Constantinople" in posts made by Irish Hermit, and it was one of the first threads that came up.  Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2010, 02:34:54 PM »

In another thread on this forum, I referred to the validity of sacraments in the RCC and the OC.  Unless I am misinformed, both recognize the validity of each others' sacraments.  Both recognize that the priesthood and episcopacy of the other derives from valid apostolic succession.  

I'll echo Asteriktos - your assumptions are incorrect.  We don't recognize the sacraments of the RC (using convenient, yet imperfect language) as valid per se, or "as they are, on their own, right now" - otherwise, we'd let RC priests celebrate Vespers or Liturgy in our Churches, for example.  They may be accepted once the people come into Orthodoxy, but there is some situational leeway involved in that, too (i.e. are they coming from Roman or Eastern rite?  Were they SSPX?  Were they promoting dance masses, or traditional ones?)

If this is indeed the case, why is it that Catholics will warmly welcome Orthodox Christians to worship with them *and* partake of the sacraments whereas Orthodox Christians will welcome Catholics to worship but *not* partake of the sacraments unless or until they convert?  

Asteriktos answered this well.

Hmmm.....interesting.  Especially in light of the fact that my assumptions come from being told these things by both RC and OC priests.  Very "conservative" ones at that.

Let me clarify 2 things: 1) I meant to refer in the subject of my OP to RC and OC sacraments.  No more, no less.  This is, after all, the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum; and 2) I'm not trying to "make a point" here, just in case anyone got that impression.  I only want to learn and to clarify some things that seem pretty fuzzy to me.

In light of all that, I have some questions:
1) With the (not-so-minor) exception of the filioque, do not Catholics and Orthodox recite the same creed?  And in that creed is there not the phrase, "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church"?

2) Is a person baptized in the RC not recognized as a baptized person by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

3) Is the marriage of a couple married by a RC priest in a Catholic church not recognized as a valid marriage by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

4) Are the bread and wine that are consecrated during a RC liturgy not the Body and Blood of Christ?  If so, why?  If not, why not?  And if so, are they recognized as such by the OC?

5) If I (or anyone else, for that matter) were to confess sins to Christ before a RC priest and receive absolution, am I (or whoever else) absolved in the eyes of God?  And does the OC recognize that absolution?  If so, why?  If not, why not?  And also if not, if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy would he/she have to re-confess, as it were, all those sins confessed and absolved in the RC?  Either way, please explain.

I guess that's probably enough to chew on for now  Smiley!
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2010, 02:52:29 PM »

In light of all that, I have some questions:
1) With the (not-so-minor) exception of the filioque, do not Catholics and Orthodox recite the same creed?  And in that creed is there not the phrase, "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church"?

Yes, so...

Quote
2) Is a person baptized in the RC not recognized as a baptized person by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

He is not baptised. There are no sacraments outside the Church.

Quote
3) Is the marriage of a couple married by a RC priest in a Catholic church not recognized as a valid marriage by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

There are no sacraments outside the Church.

Quote
4) Are the bread and wine that are consecrated during a RC liturgy not the Body and Blood of Christ?  If so, why?  If not, why not?  And if so, are they recognized as such by the OC?

They are bread and wine.

Quote
If I (or anyone else, for that matter) were to confess sins to Christ before a RC priest and receive absolution, am I (or whoever else) absolved in the eyes of God?  And does the OC recognize that absolution?  If so, why?  If not, why not?  And also if not, if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy would he/she have to re-confess, as it were, all those sins confessed and absolved in the RC?  Either way, please explain.

There are no sacraments outside the Church. While converting all the sins are cleansed.
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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2010, 03:03:07 PM »

In light of all that, I have some questions:
1) With the (not-so-minor) exception of the filioque, do not Catholics and Orthodox recite the same creed?  And in that creed is there not the phrase, "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church"?

Yes, so...

Quote
2) Is a person baptized in the RC not recognized as a baptized person by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

He is not baptised. There are no sacraments outside the Church.

Quote
3) Is the marriage of a couple married by a RC priest in a Catholic church not recognized as a valid marriage by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

There are no sacraments outside the Church.

Quote
4) Are the bread and wine that are consecrated during a RC liturgy not the Body and Blood of Christ?  If so, why?  If not, why not?  And if so, are they recognized as such by the OC?

They are bread and wine.

Quote
If I (or anyone else, for that matter) were to confess sins to Christ before a RC priest and receive absolution, am I (or whoever else) absolved in the eyes of God?  And does the OC recognize that absolution?  If so, why?  If not, why not?  And also if not, if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy would he/she have to re-confess, as it were, all those sins confessed and absolved in the RC?  Either way, please explain.

There are no sacraments outside the Church. While converting all the sins are cleansed.

I wonder if I were to ask the same questions on a Catholic discussion forum and switched around the RC and OC if someone there would reply in like manner?  You know, "There are no sacraments outside the (One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic) church.  Sigh.  Never the twain shall meet?  Bigger sigh.

And I also wonder if your position would be echoed and confirmed by all the OC bishops, thus making it an "official" Church position?  Interesting.

Would I be putting words in your mouth, so to speak, if I were to conclude that you would also hold that there is NO salvation outside the Church?  Er, the Orthodox Church?  And if so, how would you *know* that?
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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2010, 03:08:23 PM »

Why to care what the RCs/Lutherans/Pastafarians think about us?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/non-orthodox_ch7.pdf
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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2010, 03:09:25 PM »

Why to care what the RCs/Lutherans/Pastafarians think about us?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/non-orthodox_ch7.pdf

But that doesn't answer my questions.
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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2010, 03:18:16 PM »

1. The Catholics would answer that the sacraments are valid but unworthyly given wahtever that means. I have no idea why it is important to anyone in the Orthodox Church.

2. Yes.

3. The link I posted answers it.
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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2010, 03:31:25 PM »

1. The Catholics would answer that the sacraments are valid but unworthyly given wahtever that means. I have no idea why it is important to anyone in the Orthodox Church.

2. Yes.

3. The link I posted answers it.

Thanks for the link.  I've saved it and will read it later when I have more time.

Anyone else care to jump in and comment?
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2010, 03:47:13 PM »

1) With the (not-so-minor) exception of the filioque, do not Catholics and Orthodox recite the same creed?  And in that creed is there not the phrase, "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church"?

Yes, we do recite the same creed.  However, as with many things, where (or, more accurately, "with whom") you recite the creed makes a big difference.

2) Is a person baptized in the RC not recognized as a baptized person by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

If you're coming into Orthodoxy, or marrying an Orthodox person, then usually the answer is "yes."  However, if you're doing neither, then it's none of our business, and it remains a matter between the person and the Holy Spirit.

3) Is the marriage of a couple married by a RC priest in a Catholic church not recognized as a valid marriage by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

If they're becoming Orthodox, then the answer is usually, "yes."  It had a "good form," but is now being sanctified by entry into the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  However, if you're not becoming Orthodox, then it's none of our concern - it's between you and the Holy Spirit.

4) Are the bread and wine that are consecrated during a RC liturgy not the Body and Blood of Christ?  If so, why?  If not, why not?  And if so, are they recognized as such by the OC?

Generally we're not 100% sure, but we tend toward, "no Eucharist outside the Church."  At the end of the day, we don't dictate where the Spirit cannot go, and certainly cannot be sure of every place He dwells in - all we can be sure of is His presence in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

5) If I (or anyone else, for that matter) were to confess sins to Christ before a RC priest and receive absolution, am I (or whoever else) absolved in the eyes of God?

None of us can know that - God's absolution is His business, not ours.  He said that His disciples (and, by their blessing, their successors) had the power to loose and bind - which we see as present in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - but that doesn't restrict His ability to loose and bind; therefore, He will forgive whomever He wants, even if they're not in the Church.

And also if not, if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy would he/she have to re-confess, as it were, all those sins confessed and absolved in the RC?  Either way, please explain.

There's no "re-confess," just like there's no "re-baptize" - it either happened (in reality or in form), in which case it's not duplicated (if it took place in reality, then we'd be blaspheming the Spirit for duplicating; and if in form, then we can bless the prior act through the entry into the Church), or it didn't.
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2010, 06:08:09 PM »

I am under the impression that the Roman Catholic Church rejects the validity of Anglican sacraments, but that, at least until the mid-20th century, some Orthodox bishops viewed Anglican sacraments as valid and permitted Orthodox faithful to take communion at Anglican parishes. True? Feel free to elaborate.

The only documents I've seen that allowed Orthodox Christians to go to Anglican services and participate/partake refer to situations where no Orthodox Church is reachable, at a time when there were less than half of the Orthodox Churches currently found in the US.  I don't think the situation is applicable now.

Indeed, St. Raphael of Brooklyn, after being better informed on Anglicanism by the convert priest, Fr. Nathaniel Irivine, wrote forbidding communion with Anglicans even in extremis.
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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2010, 07:00:14 PM »

No, we don't recognize them as having Sacraments.

You mean you do not.  Not all Oriental Orthodox Churches agree with you.

http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/19940125SOCRCMarriageAgmt.html

This agreement between the Catholic Church and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church on interchurch marriages has been prepared taking into account the following elements of the Common Declaration of Pope John Paul II and the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch Zakka I Iwas of Antioch, dated 23 June 1984:

1.The common profession of faith between the Pope and the Patriarch on the mystery of the Incarnate Word;
2.The common affirmation of their faith in the mystery of the Church and the sacraments;
3.The possibility given by the declaration for a pastoral collaboration including the mutual admission of the faithful belonging to both churches to the reception of the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick for a grave spiritual need.
Having considered the above mentioned events and declaration, the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church agreed on the following considerations and norms.


As our two churches believe in and confess the mystery of the Church and its sacramental reality, we consider it our duty to specify the areas of agreement in cases of marriages between the members of our two churches.

Man and woman created in the image of God (Gen. 1: 26,27) are called to become sharers of the eternal divine communion. The sacrament of marriage is an image of this divine communion. Marital intimacy and self-effacing sharing are reflections of the deepest interpersonal sharing within the Trinitarian communion. Hence this intimate marital communion is divinely confirmed by Christ with the seal of unity and of indissolubility, and ordered toward the good of the spouses and the generation and education of the offspring.

He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh?" What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder. (Mt. 19:46).

Marriage is a great sacrament of divine communion and St Paul compares the mutual relationship of the husband and wife to the mystery of communion between Jesus Christ and his Church (cf. Eph. 5: 21-26; Tit. 2:3f; I Pet. 3: if; Rev. 18:7, 21:2). St Paul calls it a great mystery: "This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church" (Eph. 5:32). Hence we believe that the sacrament of marriage bearing the image of the eternal divine communion is also an image of the most intimate communion between the Risen Bridegroom with his Bride, the Church.

The Church is the primordial sacrament of the eternal divine communion and, through the celebration of her sacramental mysteries; she deepens her communion with the divine Spouse and enables her members to participate in the divine life.

Our two churches accept the sacredness and indissolubility of the sacramental bond of marriage and consider the conjugal relationship as an expression of the above communion and a means to achieve self effacing mutual love and freedom from selfishness, which was the cause of the fall of humanity.

In this theological perspective, taking into account the question of the marriages between the members of our two churches, we consider it a matter of our pastoral concern to provide the following directives.

Our two churches desire to foster marriages within the same ecclesial communion and consider this the norm. However, we have to accept the pastoral reality that interchurch marriages do take place. When such occasions arise, both churches should facilitate the celebration of the sacrament of matrimony in either church, allowing the bride/bridegroom the right and freedom to retain her/his own ecclesial communion, by providing necessary information and documents. On the occasion of these celebrations, the couples as well as their family members belonging to these two churches are allowed to participate in the Holy Eucharist in the church where the sacrament of matrimony is celebrated. We consider it also the great responsibility of the parents to pay special attention to impart to the extent possible and in mutual accord proper ecclesial formation to their children in full harmony with the tradition of the ecclesial communion to which they have to belong.

The agreement was drafted in November 1993 and released on January 25, 1994, after approval from Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Zakka I.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pastoral Guidelines
The Pastoral Guidelines which follow the text of the Agreement state that "the pastors of both partners are bound in conscience to provide continued pastoral care to interchurch families in such a way as to contribute to their sanctity, unity and harmony."

The couples are "allowed to participate jointly in the Eucharistic celebration on special occasions when this joint celebration is socially required".

Communion at the Wedding
Reciprocity. The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church is an autonomous church under the authority of the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. It is thus one of those Eastern churches, which the Roman Catholic Church recognizes as close in faith to itself and "in possession of true sacraments, notably the priesthood and the Eucharist" (Decree on Ecumenism, n.14, 15). For this reason the bride and groom are allowed to receive communion together, whether the wedding and wedding Eucharist takes place in a Catholic church or in a Malankara Syrian Orthodox church.

Family members. This document makes explicit provision for the wider family to receive communion together at the wedding, not simply the bride and groom

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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2010, 07:11:34 PM »

Eastern Catholics are another issue.

Why?

Because your Church has always treated them as a seperate issue.
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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2010, 09:47:28 PM »

1) With the (not-so-minor) exception of the filioque, do not Catholics and Orthodox recite the same creed?  And in that creed is there not the phrase, "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church"?

Yes, we do recite the same creed.  However, as with many things, where (or, more accurately, "with whom") you recite the creed makes a big difference.

2) Is a person baptized in the RC not recognized as a baptized person by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

If you're coming into Orthodoxy, or marrying an Orthodox person, then usually the answer is "yes."  However, if you're doing neither, then it's none of our business, and it remains a matter between the person and the Holy Spirit.

3) Is the marriage of a couple married by a RC priest in a Catholic church not recognized as a valid marriage by the OC?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

If they're becoming Orthodox, then the answer is usually, "yes."  It had a "good form," but is now being sanctified by entry into the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  However, if you're not becoming Orthodox, then it's none of our concern - it's between you and the Holy Spirit.

4) Are the bread and wine that are consecrated during a RC liturgy not the Body and Blood of Christ?  If so, why?  If not, why not?  And if so, are they recognized as such by the OC?

Generally we're not 100% sure, but we tend toward, "no Eucharist outside the Church."  At the end of the day, we don't dictate where the Spirit cannot go, and certainly cannot be sure of every place He dwells in - all we can be sure of is His presence in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

5) If I (or anyone else, for that matter) were to confess sins to Christ before a RC priest and receive absolution, am I (or whoever else) absolved in the eyes of God?

None of us can know that - God's absolution is His business, not ours.  He said that His disciples (and, by their blessing, their successors) had the power to loose and bind - which we see as present in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - but that doesn't restrict His ability to loose and bind; therefore, He will forgive whomever He wants, even if they're not in the Church.

And also if not, if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy would he/she have to re-confess, as it were, all those sins confessed and absolved in the RC?  Either way, please explain.

There's no "re-confess," just like there's no "re-baptize" - it either happened (in reality or in form), in which case it's not duplicated (if it took place in reality, then we'd be blaspheming the Spirit for duplicating; and if in form, then we can bless the prior act through the entry into the Church), or it didn't.

For pastoral reasons, however, most people I know who are received into the Church, regardless if they've confessed elsewhere before, give a life confession. This medicine is also recommended by various spiritual fathers to spiritual children who were raised in the Church, especially if they have not confessed in awhile or there is spiritual need.
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2010, 06:40:10 AM »

Eastern Catholics are another issue.

Why?

Because your Church has always treated them as a seperate issue.

Could you elaborate?
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2010, 01:54:57 PM »

Is your preference for RCC over AC based on something specific to their sacraments or on some other (perhaps aesthetic) criteria?

It has to do with the Roman Catholic Churches fidelity to apostolic tradition compared to the vast majority of those in the Anglican communion. When I look at the Roman Catholic Church, I see real and tangible bonds with us (apostolic succession, liturgical worship, veneration of saints and relics, Real Presence, traditional morality, etc.). When I look at the Anglicans as a whole, all I see is a huge mess of flimsy, flabby nonsense.
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« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2010, 02:26:17 PM »

Eastern Catholics are another issue.

Why?

Because your Church has always treated them as a seperate issue.

Could you elaborate?

For one thing, those which go 'Doxing (convert to Orthodoxy) are spoken as returning rather than converting.  As a body, they are in origin a schism of local Church which has united with a heretical body, thus slightly diffferent situation.
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« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2010, 10:34:28 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2010, 02:21:29 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
For the most part I agree with this. I don't need to be taking communion from an EO priest when I am perfectly capable of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ from a priest within my own communion.
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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2010, 02:25:51 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
For the most part I agree with this. I don't need to be taking communion from an EO priest when I am perfectly capable of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ from a priest within my own communion.
It is still sort of frustrating that in an emergency situation, an EO priest would likely still not give us the Eucharist.
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« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2010, 02:26:46 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
For the most part I agree with this. I don't need to be taking communion from an EO priest when I am perfectly capable of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ from a priest within my own communion.
It is still sort of frustrating that in an emergency situation, an EO priest would likely still not give us the Eucharist.
Actually, some might. I have heard some very conservative EO priests say that they would indeed offer viaticum to an ailing Catholic.
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« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2010, 02:48:24 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
For the most part I agree with this. I don't need to be taking communion from an EO priest when I am perfectly capable of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ from a priest within my own communion.
It is still sort of frustrating that in an emergency situation, an EO priest would likely still not give us the Eucharist.
Actually, some might. I have heard some very conservative EO priests say that they would indeed offer viaticum to an ailing Catholic.

This would be inappropriate IMO because they are not in communion, so giving them communion is for what reason?  magic? to make them feel good?  What is the purpose of giving them communion when they are not in communion? 
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« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2010, 02:51:01 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.
Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
For the most part I agree with this. I don't need to be taking communion from an EO priest when I am perfectly capable of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ from a priest within my own communion.
It is still sort of frustrating that in an emergency situation, an EO priest would likely still not give us the Eucharist.
Actually, some might. I have heard some very conservative EO priests say that they would indeed offer viaticum to an ailing Catholic.

This would be inappropriate IMO because they are not in communion, so giving them communion is for what reason?  magic? to make them feel good?  What is the purpose of giving them communion when they are not in communion?  
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« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2010, 03:23:04 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
For the most part I agree with this. I don't need to be taking communion from an EO priest when I am perfectly capable of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ from a priest within my own communion.
It is still sort of frustrating that in an emergency situation, an EO priest would likely still not give us the Eucharist.
Actually, some might. I have heard some very conservative EO priests say that they would indeed offer viaticum to an ailing Catholic.

This would be inappropriate IMO because they are not in communion, so giving them communion is for what reason?  magic? to make them feel good?  What is the purpose of giving them communion when they are not in communion?  
Grace and salvation. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember Fr. Ambrose saying that he might be willing to commune a Roman Catholic that was on his deathbed when no Catholic Priest is available. Fr. Ambrose, was it you who said this or am I misktaken?
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« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2010, 03:26:57 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
For the most part I agree with this. I don't need to be taking communion from an EO priest when I am perfectly capable of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ from a priest within my own communion.
It is still sort of frustrating that in an emergency situation, an EO priest would likely still not give us the Eucharist.
Actually, some might. I have heard some very conservative EO priests say that they would indeed offer viaticum to an ailing Catholic.

This would be inappropriate IMO because they are not in communion, so giving them communion is for what reason?  magic? to make them feel good?  What is the purpose of giving them communion when they are not in communion?  
Grace and salvation. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember Fr. Ambrose saying that he might be willing to commune a Roman Catholic that was on his deathbed when no Catholic Priest is available. Fr. Ambrose, was it you who said this or am I misktaken?
I wonder if certain EO Priests would only commune us on our deathbed if we renounced certain RC teachings that the EO consider heretical? Would I only be allowed to receive the Eucharist on my deathbed if I renounced the belief in Papal Primacy, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, etc.?
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« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2010, 03:28:51 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
For the most part I agree with this. I don't need to be taking communion from an EO priest when I am perfectly capable of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ from a priest within my own communion.
It is still sort of frustrating that in an emergency situation, an EO priest would likely still not give us the Eucharist.
Actually, some might. I have heard some very conservative EO priests say that they would indeed offer viaticum to an ailing Catholic.

This would be inappropriate IMO because they are not in communion, so giving them communion is for what reason?  magic? to make them feel good?  What is the purpose of giving them communion when they are not in communion?  
Grace and salvation. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember Fr. Ambrose saying that he might be willing to commune a Roman Catholic that was on his deathbed when no Catholic Priest is available. Fr. Ambrose, was it you who said this or am I misktaken?
I wonder if certain EO Priests would only commune us on our deathbed if we renounced certain RC teachings that the EO consider heretical? Would I only be allowed to receive the Eucharist on my deathbed if I renounced the belief in Papal Primacy, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, etc.?
The answers to that question probably vary. I doubt there is a cannonical process.
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« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2010, 04:10:45 PM »

So at the time, if there was no Orthodox parish in town, permission was given to take Communion in the local Anglican parish - but not in the local Roman Catholic parish?

At times, which to me seems totally ridiculous. I'd much rather take communion at a Roman Catholic church than at an Anglican church, if this were even possible. In reality, I would never take the communion from anyone outside of The Holy Greek Catholic Orthodox Eastern Church.

Yeah. I don't see what would be the point in taking "Communion" outside the Church.
For the most part I agree with this. I don't need to be taking communion from an EO priest when I am perfectly capable of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ from a priest within my own communion.
It is still sort of frustrating that in an emergency situation, an EO priest would likely still not give us the Eucharist.
Actually, some might. I have heard some very conservative EO priests say that they would indeed offer viaticum to an ailing Catholic.

This would be inappropriate IMO because they are not in communion, so giving them communion is for what reason?  magic? to make them feel good?  What is the purpose of giving them communion when they are not in communion?  
Grace and salvation. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember Fr. Ambrose saying that he might be willing to commune a Roman Catholic that was on his deathbed when no Catholic Priest is available. Fr. Ambrose, was it you who said this or am I misktaken?
I wonder if certain EO Priests would only commune us on our deathbed if we renounced certain RC teachings that the EO consider heretical? Would I only be allowed to receive the Eucharist on my deathbed if I renounced the belief in Papal Primacy, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, etc.?
The answers to that question probably vary. I doubt there is a cannonical process.

I would think the process would be Chrismation and Communion. God cares about the non-Orthodox person's salvation just as much, but an Orthodox priest must adhere to the discipline and tradition of the Orthodox Church in which he cannot dispense of the Holy Mysteries to those who are not joined to the Church. He is not even supposed to commune Orthodox Christians who refuse to repent of their sins.
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« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2010, 04:33:11 PM »

For pastoral reasons, however, most people I know who are received into the Church, regardless if they've confessed elsewhere before, give a life confession.

Then the statement is that they didn't have a valid confession before.  As I said, there's no, "re-confession" - either their confession "didn't count," and they do it now, or it "did count" and they're not required to do so.

This medicine is also recommended by various spiritual fathers to spiritual children who were raised in the Church, especially if they have not confessed in awhile or there is spiritual need.

Personal opinion: If an Orthodox Christian is asked to "re-confess" a sin that was already confessed and absolved by an Orthodox priest or hierarch, then the request is blasphemous.  If the Orthodox Christian is asked to discuss previous sins with their new spiritual father in order for the spiritual father to have a better idea about the person's background, needs, etc. (like giving a new doctor your complete medical history), then the request is "normal" and useful.
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« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2010, 05:09:52 PM »

This discussion is very interesting, especially in it's development over the days.  I'd really like to thank everyone who has participated!!

I'd also like to add two (unrelated) comments, for what they are worth. First of all, a very good friend of mine once said that **everything** man has touched since the Fall he has managed to corrupt.  Everything.  Just look around you.  Just look at history.  All of history.  And that includes the Church.  Just re-read this thread.

Secondly, at The Judgment, at which according to the Antiochian Orthodox Divine Liturgy,we will be called upon to offer "a good defense before the awful judgment seat of the Lord" (did I get that right?), will God ask us if we were Orthodox, or Anglican, or Roman Catholic?  Will He ask us if we partook of Holy Communion from a priest that was in communion with the "correct" Church?  I wonder just *what* He will ask us.  And, speaking only for myself here, I really do not think I will have "a good defense...".  Lord have mercy on me, a sinner!
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