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Author Topic: Roman Catholic Churches  (Read 29902 times) Average Rating: 0
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James Joseph
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« Reply #180 on: May 19, 2011, 08:43:41 PM »

Hardly. That I have no love for Ultramontanism does not mean I have an aversion to all things Latin.  your prejudice is showing.

Haha, I could have said this. I'm not fond of Ultramontanism either.


Anyone who seethes over Jansenism as much as I do doesn't even like the word Ultramontanism. I fall short of calling it a heresy. Although it probably is. I know not. Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

Thank you for the photographs, gentlemen.

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« Reply #181 on: May 19, 2011, 08:47:33 PM »

Hardly. That I have no love for Ultramontanism does not mean I have an aversion to all things Latin.  your prejudice is showing.

Haha, I could have said this. I'm not fond of Ultramontanism either.


Anyone who seethes over Jansenism as much as I do doesn't even like the word Ultramontanism. I fall short of calling it a heresy. Although it probably is. I know not. Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

Thank you for the photographs, gentlemen.

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The definition here seems to be "anyone who is in communion with the pope" and is so quite willingly.
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« Reply #182 on: May 19, 2011, 08:53:36 PM »

Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

True.
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« Reply #183 on: May 19, 2011, 09:08:37 PM »

Quote from: James Joseph
Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

You noticed?  laugh
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« Reply #184 on: May 21, 2011, 03:15:13 PM »

Ultramontanism is a term taken from the Enlightenment era Austria and Germany, in which there were two fractions, the Ultramontanists and the Josephinists/Febrionists. The Josephinists called from state control of the Church, vernacular liturgy, and delegalisation of monastic orders. The Ultramontanists called the Papal control of the Church, Latin liturgy, and supported the rights of the Church to run schools, hospitals, and monasteries. The Ultramontanists were the minority of the nobility, the majority of the commonfolk. The Josephinists were the majority of nobility and biurocracy, non-existent among the commonfolk. From another angle, Josephinists viewed the Church only as a biurocratic instrument of the State and its goals negating the spiritual and mystical, sacramental life of Christianity. Josephinism is also associated with the values of middle class biurocracy and capitalism. Ultramontanism was viewed as the religion of the underpriveliged rural "rabble".
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« Reply #185 on: May 21, 2011, 03:34:04 PM »

Ultramontanism is a term taken from the Enlightenment era Austria and Germany, in which there were two fractions, the Ultramontanists and the Josephinists/Febrionists. The Josephinists called from state control of the Church, vernacular liturgy, and delegalisation of monastic orders. The Ultramontanists called the Papal control of the Church, Latin liturgy, and supported the rights of the Church to run schools, hospitals, and monasteries. The Ultramontanists were the minority of the nobility, the majority of the commonfolk. The Josephinists were the majority of nobility and biurocracy, non-existent among the commonfolk. From another angle, Josephinists viewed the Church only as a biurocratic instrument of the State and its goals negating the spiritual and mystical, sacramental life of Christianity. Josephinism is also associated with the values of middle class biurocracy and capitalism. Ultramontanism was viewed as the religion of the underpriveliged rural "rabble".


I am so grateful to you for doing this.  It is particularly useful as you make the distinction that allows us to see two, at least primary, perspectives among the nobility.  This difference one finds among the noble or aristocratic houses follows through all the way into the beginning of the 20th century and the Fall of Eagles.

M.
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« Reply #186 on: May 22, 2011, 11:27:31 PM »

Ultramontanism is a term taken from the Enlightenment era Austria and Germany, in which there were two fractions, the Ultramontanists and the Josephinists/Febrionists. The Josephinists called from state control of the Church, vernacular liturgy, and delegalisation of monastic orders. The Ultramontanists called the Papal control of the Church, Latin liturgy, and supported the rights of the Church to run schools, hospitals, and monasteries. The Ultramontanists were the minority of the nobility, the majority of the commonfolk. The Josephinists were the majority of nobility and biurocracy, non-existent among the commonfolk. From another angle, Josephinists viewed the Church only as a biurocratic instrument of the State and its goals negating the spiritual and mystical, sacramental life of Christianity. Josephinism is also associated with the values of middle class biurocracy and capitalism. Ultramontanism was viewed as the religion of the underpriveliged rural "rabble".

Thank you.

Reading this has sort the other thoughts I have read on this. I do know that throughout Europe the state has generally controlled the Church in various ways. Except in one book written by Fr. Avery Cardinal Dulles I have only read of Ultramontanists in the very negative. With a background in Modern French History, I must admit most of the books I have read have been written by damnable heretics.

I must also admit that I seem to have an inability to shake Montanism from Ultramontanism in a false cognitive association. I remind myself ultramontane is an awkward if not pejorative way of saying 'Beyond the Mountains'. In this way, while I reside in North America, I must be an Ultramare; that is, beyond the seas.

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« Reply #187 on: May 23, 2011, 08:30:54 AM »

I must also admit that I seem to have an inability to shake Montanism from Ultramontanism in a false cognitive association. I remind myself ultramontane is an awkward if not pejorative way of saying 'Beyond the Mountains'. In this way, while I reside in North America, I must be an Ultramare; that is, beyond the seas.

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I wonder if "ultramontane" has caused a lot of confusion, inasmuch as to an ultramontanist the non-ultramontanist are "ultramontane". (Similarly, if I were to "cross the tiber", that would mean leaving the Catholic Church.)
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« Reply #188 on: May 23, 2011, 08:40:54 AM »

I must also admit that I seem to have an inability to shake Montanism from Ultramontanism in a false cognitive association. I remind myself ultramontane is an awkward if not pejorative way of saying 'Beyond the Mountains'. In this way, while I reside in North America, I must be an Ultramare; that is, beyond the seas.

+

I wonder if "ultramontane" has caused a lot of confusion, inasmuch as to an ultramontanist the non-ultramontanist are "ultramontane". (Similarly, if I were to "cross the tiber", that would mean leaving the Catholic Church.)

Anybody have a spare compass?
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« Reply #189 on: July 25, 2013, 08:47:49 PM »

Sorry I couldn't find a better picture, but just to bump the thread... the church I was baptized in...

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« Reply #190 on: July 25, 2013, 10:17:19 PM »

Please, remember that the church was built by Martians who lived in Ukraine for hundreds of years.

I never knew Martians lived in Ukraine, much less built churches there.
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« Reply #191 on: July 26, 2013, 12:24:04 AM »

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« Reply #192 on: July 26, 2013, 02:40:15 AM »

St. Emmeram's, Regensburg.
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« Reply #193 on: July 26, 2013, 02:48:08 AM »

St. Sebastian, Ramsau.
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« Reply #194 on: July 26, 2013, 02:49:41 AM »

Maria Gern, Berchtesgaden.
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« Reply #195 on: July 26, 2013, 03:17:35 AM »

^Some very picturesque scenes Smiley
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« Reply #196 on: July 26, 2013, 04:10:27 AM »

Behold! The future of Catholic churches in America...



(No, that's not a Catholic church. Yet. Wink )

That is horrible.  So cold.
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« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2013, 04:11:21 AM »

Basilique Notre-Dame de Montréal:



Beautiful!
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« Reply #198 on: August 04, 2013, 02:20:42 PM »

St. Dominic's in San Francisco

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« Reply #199 on: August 04, 2013, 02:22:29 PM »

St. Francis Cathedral in Santa Fe, New Mexico



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« Reply #200 on: August 04, 2013, 02:37:05 PM »

What kind of icons those are? Byzantine? Coptic? Romanesque?
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« Reply #201 on: August 04, 2013, 02:45:44 PM »

What kind of icons those are? Byzantine? Coptic? Romanesque?
Interesting you should ask. They are not Icons in the sense you are thinking but, rather, they are Retablos, a traditional New Mexican form of religious art which dates back to the Spanish Colonial period. I have always thought they resembled icons too.



Here is a close up of a traditional retablo from New Mexico


And here:
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« Reply #202 on: August 04, 2013, 02:50:50 PM »

Note: You have to be careful when looking for a good traditional New Mexican Retablo. Unfortunately, the artsy/hippie type know to dwell in Santa Fe has adopted the style, and as a consequence, there are some very ugly/gaudy pieces out there that are masquerading as Retablos.
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« Reply #203 on: August 04, 2013, 02:52:33 PM »

Very icon-ish indeed. I might venerate one if it depicted an Orthodox Saint and didn't contain anything goofy like those "icons" painted by Robert Lenz.
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« Reply #204 on: August 04, 2013, 02:56:19 PM »

I saw some of those elsewhere online recently, and the ones I saw in particular reminded me of Slavic folk icons I've seen.
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« Reply #205 on: August 04, 2013, 02:59:24 PM »

Very icon-ish indeed. I might venerate one if it depicted an Orthodox Saint and didn't contain anything goofy like those "icons" painted by Robert Lenz.
I had a Franciscan priest, friend named Fr. Robert, who made a relief of St. Seraphim of Serov. The relief was somewhere between Icon and Retablo. I have a print of it sitting around somewhere. If I can find it and upload it, I will share it here online.
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« Reply #206 on: August 04, 2013, 03:04:29 PM »

This Church, for the most part has Retablos, instead of Statues.


It feels very New Mexican.
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« Reply #207 on: August 04, 2013, 03:23:40 PM »

The newly renovated Roman Catholic Church in my neighborhood:

The lighting on the crucifix is unbelievable - I can't think of any other way to describe it  Shocked
Actually, that is not a normal crucifix; instead, it is a holographic image of the risen Christ.

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« Reply #208 on: August 11, 2013, 12:27:22 PM »

Beautiful! What Church is that?

This Church, for the most part has Retablos, instead of Statues.


It feels very New Mexican.
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« Reply #209 on: August 11, 2013, 12:31:59 PM »

The black and white photo is beautiful.
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« Reply #210 on: August 11, 2013, 03:20:59 PM »

This Church, for the most part has Retablos, instead of Statues.


It feels very New Mexican.
I think it may be Santa Ana in Questa, NM. Though I'm not 100% sure.
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« Reply #211 on: August 11, 2013, 03:23:53 PM »

If you check this link: http://www.lorettochapel.com/history.html You will find images of Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe, NM. The stair case in the chapel was supposedly built by St. Joseph, and was made without nails.
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« Reply #212 on: August 11, 2013, 03:33:06 PM »

This is the Santuario De Chimayo in Chimayo, New Mexico.



Every year on Good Friday, thousands of New Mexicans make make a pilgrimage to the Santuario, in honor of our Lord's passion. Some even go seeking miraculous healings.
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« Reply #213 on: August 11, 2013, 03:37:14 PM »

Here is the altar from the Santuario:



And here is the "Holy Dirt" that Pilgrims take from the Santuario:

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« Reply #214 on: August 11, 2013, 03:39:47 PM »

Here is the Catholic Cathedral in Denver, CO:



Here is the exterior:

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« Reply #215 on: August 11, 2013, 03:48:37 PM »

Here is the Catholic Cathedral in Denver, CO:



Did the parish ran out of paint? police
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« Reply #216 on: August 11, 2013, 03:50:33 PM »

Here is the Catholic Cathedral in Denver, CO:



Did the parish ran out of paint? police

I have actually been there. There is a beautiful charm to the plain statuary. Smiley
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« Reply #217 on: August 11, 2013, 03:53:34 PM »

St. Albert's Priory in Oakland.

One of my best friends, a Dominican Friar, lives there.

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« Reply #218 on: August 11, 2013, 03:58:17 PM »

Just about every horror movie contains a church like that.
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« Reply #219 on: August 11, 2013, 04:01:56 PM »

Just about every horror movie contains a church like that.
Haha. That's true
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« Reply #220 on: August 11, 2013, 04:20:27 PM »

St Denis RC Cathedral, Athens:



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« Reply #221 on: August 11, 2013, 04:40:23 PM »

It's depressing that the beautiful High Altars in Roman Catholic Churches are now, for the most part, fancy candle and flower holders behind a plain table. It's going to take something monumental to (literally and figuratively) turn things around again.
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« Reply #222 on: August 11, 2013, 04:50:40 PM »

It's depressing that the beautiful High Altars in Roman Catholic Churches are now, for the most part, fancy candle and flower holders behind a plain table. It's going to take something monumental to (literally and figuratively) turn things around again.

A promenade over Google shows that you're probably right. Modern Catholic churches are generally too plain for my liking.

This is the altar of the Sacred Heart in Galissos, Ano Syros (by the style, dating from the 19th century):



This is the local parish here in the outskirts of Colchester, St Teresa of Lisieux. They may have thought that, since it serves a primary school, this style would be more or less child-proof, but... yeahno.

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« Reply #223 on: August 11, 2013, 05:01:29 PM »

It's depressing that the beautiful High Altars in Roman Catholic Churches are now, for the most part, fancy candle and flower holders behind a plain table.

I fail to understand why you did that. Old-fashioned Catholicism seems extremely beautiful while this present outlook with tables and all that seems fairly dull.
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« Reply #224 on: August 11, 2013, 05:08:16 PM »

It's depressing that the beautiful High Altars in Roman Catholic Churches are now, for the most part, fancy candle and flower holders behind a plain table.

I fail to understand why you did that. Old-fashioned Catholicism seems extremely beautiful while this present outlook with tables and all that seems fairly dull.

Well, I didn't do it!

Modern Catholicism is incredibly dull for the most part. Basically, you go and a guy in a drab gown-like thing talks at you for a few minutes, then he sits there and looks at you while some people waltz around the sanctuary and read Scriptures. Then the vested guy gets back up and talks at you again for another 15 minutes or so, he then play acts the Last Supper, everyone goes and grabs communion, then the guy talks a little more at you. And everyone rushes for the exit. It struck me at Mass this morning just how little that goes on in the modern Mass could pass for worship...

YMMV. In fact, your mileage will vary because every parish is different. The only parishes I've ever found that were alike offered the Tridentine Mass -- I've been to many such places around the USA and its always the same reverent worship in such places. If all Catholicism were like that, I'd have a hard time leaving. Since its not, I'm having a hard time staying.
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