Roman Catholic Churches

[James Joseph]

Hardly. That I have no love for Ultramontanism does not mean I have an aversion to all things Latin.  your prejudice is showing.

Haha, I could have said this. I'm not fond of Ultramontanism either.

Anyone who seethes over Jansenism as much as I do doesn't even like the word Ultramontanism. I fall short of calling it a heresy. Although it probably is. I know not. Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

Thank you for the photographs, gentlemen.

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[elijahmaria]

Hardly. That I have no love for Ultramontanism does not mean I have an aversion to all things Latin.  your prejudice is showing.

Haha, I could have said this. I'm not fond of Ultramontanism either.

Anyone who seethes over Jansenism as much as I do doesn't even like the word Ultramontanism. I fall short of calling it a heresy. Although it probably is. I know not. Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

Thank you for the photographs, gentlemen.

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The definition here seems to be "anyone who is in communion with the pope" and is so quite willingly.

[Peter J]

Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

True.

[biro]

Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

You noticed? 

[synLeszka]

Ultramontanism is a term taken from the Enlightenment era Austria and Germany, in which there were two fractions, the Ultramontanists and the Josephinists/Febrionists. The Josephinists called from state control of the Church, vernacular liturgy, and delegalisation of monastic orders. The Ultramontanists called the Papal control of the Church, Latin liturgy, and supported the rights of the Church to run schools, hospitals, and monasteries. The Ultramontanists were the minority of the nobility, the majority of the commonfolk. The Josephinists were the majority of nobility and biurocracy, non-existent among the commonfolk. From another angle, Josephinists viewed the Church only as a biurocratic instrument of the State and its goals negating the spiritual and mystical, sacramental life of Christianity. Josephinism is also associated with the values of middle class biurocracy and capitalism. Ultramontanism was viewed as the religion of the underpriveliged rural "rabble".

[elijahmaria]

Ultramontanism is a term taken from the Enlightenment era Austria and Germany, in which there were two fractions, the Ultramontanists and the Josephinists/Febrionists. The Josephinists called from state control of the Church, vernacular liturgy, and delegalisation of monastic orders. The Ultramontanists called the Papal control of the Church, Latin liturgy, and supported the rights of the Church to run schools, hospitals, and monasteries. The Ultramontanists were the minority of the nobility, the majority of the commonfolk. The Josephinists were the majority of nobility and biurocracy, non-existent among the commonfolk. From another angle, Josephinists viewed the Church only as a biurocratic instrument of the State and its goals negating the spiritual and mystical, sacramental life of Christianity. Josephinism is also associated with the values of middle class biurocracy and capitalism. Ultramontanism was viewed as the religion of the underpriveliged rural "rabble".

I am so grateful to you for doing this.  It is particularly useful as you make the distinction that allows us to see two, at least primary, perspectives among the nobility.  This difference one finds among the noble or aristocratic houses follows through all the way into the beginning of the 20th century and the Fall of Eagles.

M.

[James Joseph]

Ultramontanism is a term taken from the Enlightenment era Austria and Germany, in which there were two fractions, the Ultramontanists and the Josephinists/Febrionists. The Josephinists called from state control of the Church, vernacular liturgy, and delegalisation of monastic orders. The Ultramontanists called the Papal control of the Church, Latin liturgy, and supported the rights of the Church to run schools, hospitals, and monasteries. The Ultramontanists were the minority of the nobility, the majority of the commonfolk. The Josephinists were the majority of nobility and biurocracy, non-existent among the commonfolk. From another angle, Josephinists viewed the Church only as a biurocratic instrument of the State and its goals negating the spiritual and mystical, sacramental life of Christianity. Josephinism is also associated with the values of middle class biurocracy and capitalism. Ultramontanism was viewed as the religion of the underpriveliged rural "rabble".

Thank you.

Reading this has sort the other thoughts I have read on this. I do know that throughout Europe the state has generally controlled the Church in various ways. Except in one book written by Fr. Avery Cardinal Dulles I have only read of Ultramontanists in the very negative. With a background in Modern French History, I must admit most of the books I have read have been written by damnable heretics.

I must also admit that I seem to have an inability to shake Montanism from Ultramontanism in a false cognitive association. I remind myself ultramontane is an awkward if not pejorative way of saying 'Beyond the Mountains'. In this way, while I reside in North America, I must be an Ultramare; that is, beyond the seas.

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[Peter J]

I must also admit that I seem to have an inability to shake Montanism from Ultramontanism in a false cognitive association. I remind myself ultramontane is an awkward if not pejorative way of saying 'Beyond the Mountains'. In this way, while I reside in North America, I must be an Ultramare; that is, beyond the seas.

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I wonder if "ultramontane" has caused a lot of confusion, inasmuch as to an ultramontanist the non-ultramontanist are "ultramontane". (Similarly, if I were to "cross the tiber", that would mean leaving the Catholic Church.)

[elijahmaria]

I must also admit that I seem to have an inability to shake Montanism from Ultramontanism in a false cognitive association. I remind myself ultramontane is an awkward if not pejorative way of saying 'Beyond the Mountains'. In this way, while I reside in North America, I must be an Ultramare; that is, beyond the seas.

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I wonder if "ultramontane" has caused a lot of confusion, inasmuch as to an ultramontanist the non-ultramontanist are "ultramontane". (Similarly, if I were to "cross the tiber", that would mean leaving the Catholic Church.)

Anybody have a spare compass?

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