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Author Topic: Has there or will there ever be Catholic moderation on OC.net?  (Read 7112 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« on: November 01, 2010, 12:50:36 PM »

I have noticed that there are Eastern Orthodox moderators as well as Oriental Orthodox moderators on this forum. It occurred to me that I have never seen a Catholic (Roman or Eastern) moderator on this site. Is there any possibility of a Catholic being elevated to moderator status on this site, or are we pretty much on our own as far as fighting off anti-Catholic rhetoric? The reason I ask is because it seems there is a bit of a double standard here. Obviously the EO don't consider the OO to be the true One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, nor do the OO think that the EO are, yet still somehow those two groups are able to get along with each other on the site and even share moderator authority. Is there any chance of a RC or EC member being appointed moderator as a balance so that the site is a bit less biased?

What made me think of this is because I noticed in the thread on the differences between EO and OO, some posts which took jabs at OO were removed based on them being polemical in nature. However, this same courtesy does not seem to be shown to Catholics at all, regardless of how hateful a post may be towards Catholicism. I can't help but think this would change (at least to a degree) if we had at least one RC or EC represented in the moderation team on this forum.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:09:58 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2010, 12:58:18 PM »

Regarding having both EO and OO mods, that probably comes, at least in part, from the original founders of the site being both EO and OO (ok, I think some were just on their way to being EO). So there has always been this EO/OO combination, even in the highest ranks of the administration of the forum. So, while there have been Catholics such as Lubeltri, Papist, Schultz (previous), Jakub, etc. around for a while, and also members of other groups (e.g. the Anglicans Keble and Ebor), these groups weren't part of the original "byzantine" or "eastern" idea behind the forum.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:00:14 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 01:02:19 PM »

Orthodox Christians ARE Catholic in the truest sense of the word. Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2010, 01:05:28 PM »

Orthodox Christians ARE Catholic in the truest sense of the word. Smiley
You are obviously entitled to believe that, but I really think you know what I meant in the opening post. When I say Catholic I mean the Churches in Full Communion with Rome. I hesitate to say "Roman Catholic" because that diminishes the identity of Eastern Catholics who are no less important nor any less a part of the Church than the Latin Church.
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 01:07:21 PM »

Orthodox Christians ARE Catholic in the truest sense of the word. Smiley
Gabriel, I don't think such comments very helpful to this discussion at all. While what you say may be true, we've already discussed this issue ad nauseum on a number of threads where expression of such thoughts actually is more appropriate.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:08:23 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2010, 01:08:10 PM »

Why isn't there a Protestant moderator? Or a Hindu? Or a Buddhist? Or an atheist?

:checks the domain name:

Oh.
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2010, 01:12:16 PM »

Why isn't there a Protestant moderator? Or a Hindu? Or a Buddhist? Or an atheist?

:checks the domain name:

Oh.
The site is called OrthodoxChristianity.net, yet the EO don't consider the OO to be Orthodox, nor do the OO consider the EO to be Orthodox, hence they are still separated. Yet somehow, the two are able to co-exist with relatively few problems. Obviously the EO and OO consider the Churches in Full Communion with Rome to be in serious error, but likely less so than they believe the Protestants are (hopefully), so why can't we be represented in the moderation team?

For that matter, why can't we have our own section of the forum rather than just this one which might as well be called the "explain why the Catholics are wrong" forum. The Oriental Orthodox have their section all to themselves, rather than having a Oriental Orthodox-Eastern Orthodox section which compares and contrasts OO and EO. It feels as though we are considered second class citizens here, and are not even shown the basic courtesies that other groups enjoy. Otherwise, we would have our own section rather than just this section which compares our faith to Eastern Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:16:22 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 01:13:55 PM »

Orthodox Christians ARE Catholic in the truest sense of the word. Smiley
Gabriel, I don't think such comments very helpful to this discussion at all. While what you say may be true, we've already discussed this issue ad nauseum on a number of threads where expression of such thoughts actually is more appropriate.

You're right, PTA.  Though I was only funning with Wyatt, I apologize for scandalizing him or anyone else.
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 01:14:51 PM »

Why isn't there a Protestant moderator? Or a Hindu? Or a Buddhist? Or an atheist?

:checks the domain name:

Oh.
The site is called OrthodoxChristianity.net, yet the EO don't consider the OO to be Orthodox, nor do the OO consider the EO to be Orthodox, hence they are still separated.

Actually many EO do consider the OO to be fully Orthodox, and vice versa. There was a poll on this somewhere, let me see if I can find it...
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Wyatt
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2010, 01:19:39 PM »

Actually many EO do consider the OO to be fully Orthodox, and vice versa. There was a poll on this somewhere, let me see if I can find it...
So why are the two Communions still separated?
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2010, 01:24:09 PM »

Actually many EO do consider the OO to be fully Orthodox, and vice versa. There was a poll on this somewhere, let me see if I can find it...
So why are the two Communions still separated?

Actually I take back what I said, I found the thread and it didn't bear how how I remembered things (or misremembered). Regarding why the EO and OO aren't united yet, I think there are still issues to work through, which I would think (?) even optimistic supporters of unity would acknowledge.
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2010, 01:34:06 PM »

Why isn't there a Protestant moderator? Or a Hindu? Or a Buddhist? Or an atheist?

:checks the domain name:

Oh.
Yes, the fact that this site is intended for discussion of Orthodox Christianity is the main reason we have--as long as I've been here--always resisted giving moderatorial responsibilities to non-Orthodox. The Orthodox-Protestant board was created to be a place for Orthodox to dialogue with Protestants, and the Orthodox-Catholic board was created to be a place for Orthodox to dialogue with Catholics. But they are still fundamentally Orthodox Christian discussion boards and, at least in my professional opinion, need to be moderated by Christians who represent the Orthodox point of view held to be the consensus of this forum and of this site's administration--that is, Orthodox Christians. Out of sensitivity to the needs of our Protestant and Catholic posters, however, we have sought as candidates to moderate the Orthodox-Protestant board those Orthodox posters who have a strong background in Protestantism, and we have likewise sought to moderate the Orthodox-Catholic board those Orthodox who converted from Catholicism or otherwise have a strong background in Catholicism.

As to the double standard you see, much of that may be related to our moderatorial strategy of appointing moderators to focus primarily on one section of this forum. Whereas we do have global moderators overseeing the work of the section moderators and we do act on a consensus model quite often, we also allow each section mod to moderate his/her own section as he/she deems best. As a natural result of this approach, we welcome some differences in moderatorial style from one moderator to the next. What you see, then, as a double standard may merely be Salpy moderating the OO board with an approach mildly different from how Schultz moderates this Orthodox-Catholic section.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:57:36 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 02:50:20 PM »

Just to add to this. Shultz, who moderates the Orthodox-Catholic board, is very senstive to the Catholics on this forum and moderates in a very fair manner.
And just like anywhere else, the mods are human, and some are better than others.
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 02:56:39 PM »

Wyatt,

One reason why you've not seen EO-OO polemics is because the place for EO-OO polemics are in the Private Fora.  That's one reason why EO-OO polemics are removed from the Oriental Orthodox Forum - because that's just a place for discussion of OO topics, not the usual endless merry-go-round on EO-OO issues (which, since you brought it up, are merely a fraction of the EO-RC & OO-RC issues), which are thus restricted to the private EO-OO forum, or Free-For-All: Religious Topics.
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2010, 03:57:00 PM »

Wyatt,

One reason why you've not seen EO-OO polemics is because the place for EO-OO polemics are in the Private Fora.  That's one reason why EO-OO polemics are removed from the Oriental Orthodox Forum - because that's just a place for discussion of OO topics, not the usual endless merry-go-round on EO-OO issues (which, since you brought it up, are merely a fraction of the EO-RC & OO-RC issues), which are thus restricted to the private EO-OO forum, or Free-For-All: Religious Topics.

Would it be possible for this section of the forum to be set up to discuss Catholic issues and have the Catholic-Orthodox polemics rerouted to a private section of the forum?
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2010, 06:03:24 PM »

It's really up to the owners of the Forum to decide.  FWIW, I was a mod for many years at the old Internet Infidels board.  They didn't mind me being a theist as long as I was able to be objective & demonstrably fair to all under my benign dictatorship. Wink
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2010, 06:12:57 PM »

The reason I ask is because it seems there is a bit of a double standard here. Obviously the EO don't consider the OO to be the true One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, nor do the OO think that the EO are, yet still somehow those two groups are able to get along with each other on the site and even share moderator authority.

That shouldn't be surprising seeing as how similar we are to each other in comparison to how dissimilar either of us are to you.
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2010, 06:15:52 PM »

Orthodox Christians ARE Catholic in the truest sense of the word. Smiley

Obviously.
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« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2010, 06:17:01 PM »

I hesitate to say "Roman Catholic" because that diminishes the identity of Eastern Catholics who are no less important nor any less a part of the Church than the Latin Church.

No, it doesn't. "Roman" in "Roman Catholic" has been used also to refer to all churches in communion with the Pope; even PJP2 used it in this way.
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« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2010, 06:17:54 PM »

Actually many EO do consider the OO to be fully Orthodox, and vice versa. There was a poll on this somewhere, let me see if I can find it...
So why are the two Communions still separated?
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2010, 06:21:38 PM »

IIRC Schultz was a mod while he was still a Byzantine Catholic.
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2010, 06:24:05 PM »

IIRC Schultz was a mod while he was still a Byzantine Catholic.

I thought he became a mod after he was already an Orthodox catechumen.
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2010, 06:27:16 PM »

The site is called OrthodoxChristianity.net, yet the EO don't consider the OO to be Orthodox, nor do the OO consider the EO to be Orthodox, hence they are still separated.

Actually, that is not true in an unqualified manner. Many of us consider each other to be essentially Orthodox. Even as for myself, who am one of the more Anti-Chalcedonian members here, while I believe that the Byzantines are not Orthodox in the same sense as the Orientals because Chalcedon was heretical, I nonetheless recognize that they "fixed" their faith at Constantinople II and what they officially express since then is without error (despite the fact that I don't see how they can logically explain the Nestorian seeming parts of Chalcedon).

So even as for me, I recognize the Byzantines as orthodox in a manner that I do not recognize you.

Obviously the EO and OO consider the Churches in Full Communion with Rome to be in serious error, but likely less so than they believe the Protestants are (hopefully), so why can't we be represented in the moderation team?

That's just a slippery slope anyway you look at it that cannot establish a consistent standard. We could say that the Protestants are less so in error than Muslims so we should allow Protestants. And then we could say that Muslims are less so in error than Hindus, so we should allow Muslims. Etc.

It feels as though we are considered second class citizens here, and are not even shown the basic courtesies that other groups enjoy.

You really are second class citizens here (actually it would be more accurate to say that you really aren't citizens at all), and I don't see how that it is an unreasonable approach.
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2010, 06:28:15 PM »

Actually many EO do consider the OO to be fully Orthodox, and vice versa. There was a poll on this somewhere, let me see if I can find it...
So why are the two Communions still separated?

Because we haven't fully worked out how to reconcile our historical divergences.
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2010, 06:31:33 PM »

You really are second class citizens here (actually it would be more accurate to say that you really aren't citizens at all), and I don't see how that it is an unreasonable approach.
Nice Christian charity there. :/
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2010, 06:37:38 PM »

You really are second class citizens here (actually it would be more accurate to say that you really aren't citizens at all), and I don't see how that it is an unreasonable approach.
Nice Christian charity there. :/

Beats massacring each other  Wink
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2010, 06:41:46 PM »

You really are second class citizens here (actually it would be more accurate to say that you really aren't citizens at all), and I don't see how that it is an unreasonable approach.
Nice Christian charity there. :/

Well, if you would be treated like second class citizens or non-citizens in an Orthodox Church (and you would likewise treat Protestants such), then how is it unreasonable to do so also on an Orthodox forum?
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2010, 06:43:05 PM »

Wyatt, you've asked the other RC's on the board about this before so my disagreement should come as no surprise.

But he's right - this board was set up primarily for Orthodox Christians.  You and I are welcome to visit but unless we convert, our opinions and desires carry less weight.

Imagine a Jack Chick anti RC complaining at CAF because the mods aren't more sympathetic to his desire to call the Pope the "Whore of Babylon".  Sorry, but here, that's us.

If it gets to be a problem, there are lots of other religious forums out there - find a better one, or even start your own.  (Ask elijahmaria, she's done it.)

Otherwise, be a meek humble second-class citizen, and keep in mind what Christ said about the meek and humble. Grin
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2010, 06:49:32 PM »

Well, if you would be treated like second class citizens or non-citizens in an Orthodox Church (and you would likewise treat Protestants such), then how is it unreasonable to do so also on an Orthodox forum?
So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love.

Imagine a Jack Chick anti RC complaining at CAF because the mods aren't more sympathetic to his desire to call the Pope the "Whore of Babylon".  Sorry, but here, that's us.
The difference is neither I nor most other Catholics are anti-EO or anti-OO. Heck, we even let the EO Commune in our Churches. We are charitable and loving to them yet they scoff at us and treat us like we are garbage.
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2010, 06:51:02 PM »

We need a Orthodox Moderator On catholic Answers Forum ..Because the Catholic mods Are Banning the orthodox Posters ,There Hardly anyone left there to defend the truths of Holy Orthodoxy......  
I say No and Vote No to Catholic moderator On this  Holy Orthodox Forum... Grin
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« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2010, 06:52:28 PM »

Really?  Ever heard of James Likoudis?  A *very* anti-EO traditionalist RC, and there are plenty of others like him.

And the fact that the RC allows EOs to commune means little since the EOs themselves generally scorn the whole concept.
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« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2010, 06:57:23 PM »

Well, if you would be treated like second class citizens or non-citizens in an Orthodox Church (and you would likewise treat Protestants such), then how is it unreasonable to do so also on an Orthodox forum?
So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love.

So us treating you as second class citizens is unloving but you treating Protestants like second class citizens is loving?

Now I see who really is into double standards here.
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« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2010, 07:00:57 PM »

We need a Orthodox Moderator On catholic Answers Forum ..Because the Catholic mods Are Banning the orthodox Posters....
That's because the Orthodox were causing trouble, gaining converts and such. Wink
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« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2010, 07:01:15 PM »

The difference is neither I nor most other Catholics are anti-EO or anti-OO. Heck, we even let the EO Commune in our Churches.

What would result in our apostatising. How generous of you.
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« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2010, 07:03:50 PM »

The difference is neither I nor most other Catholics are anti-EO or anti-OO. Heck, we even let the EO Commune in our Churches.

What would result in our apostatising. How generous of you.

LOL
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« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2010, 07:29:27 PM »

IIRC Schultz was a mod while he was still a Byzantine Catholic. 

Nope.  He had already converted.  I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure that we've exclusively had Orthodox mods.
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« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2010, 07:31:47 PM »

You really are second class citizens here (actually it would be more accurate to say that you really aren't citizens at all), and I don't see how that it is an unreasonable approach.
Nice Christian charity there. :/
Beats massacring each other  Wink

Indeed.  We still treat second-class citizens like humans, instead of casting them off like unwanted leeches (as we've found ourselves treated in encounters elsewhere on the 'net).
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« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2010, 07:36:10 PM »

I never felt like a second class citizen when I wasn't Orthodox.
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« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2010, 07:37:16 PM »

But ya AH, Blanche, ya AH!
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« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2010, 07:44:41 PM »

Wyatt,

One reason why you've not seen EO-OO polemics is because the place for EO-OO polemics are in the Private Fora.  That's one reason why EO-OO polemics are removed from the Oriental Orthodox Forum - because that's just a place for discussion of OO topics, not the usual endless merry-go-round on EO-OO issues (which, since you brought it up, are merely a fraction of the EO-RC & OO-RC issues), which are thus restricted to the private EO-OO forum, or Free-For-All: Religious Topics.

Would it be possible for this section of the forum to be set up to discuss Catholic issues and have the Catholic-Orthodox polemics rerouted to a private section of the forum?

I had a lengthy answer, and lost it somehow.  However, one point I was going to bring up has been mentioned since then, namely:

That shouldn't be surprising seeing as how similar we are to each other in comparison to how dissimilar either of us are to you.

Now:

Well, if you would be treated like second class citizens or non-citizens in an Orthodox Church (and you would likewise treat Protestants such), then how is it unreasonable to do so also on an Orthodox forum?

So I guess that is the fundamental difference between Catholicism vs. EO and OO...love versus no love.

I'm sure the Orthodox Christians raped and massacred by the Crusaders sympathize with you.  Get off your self-constructed moral high horse - the part of RCism that has diverged from Orthodoxy is the only thing attacked here, not RCs.  It's an Orthodox Forum, here to discuss issues of Orthodoxy; it would be incongruent for us to have a RC-exclusive section considering our position viz-a-viz sacraments (especially Communion), history, theology, ecclesiology, etc.  We can have an area where RC and EO/OO/Old-Cal discuss things together, and an area where the aforementioned groups can be more polemical (Private Fora), but that's as good as it gets.  The OO's only have their "own section" here because of the unique cultural and liturgical circumstances and the fact that, if they were expected to have their threads about their issues in with the rest of the threads, they'd be swallowed up or buried by the EO stuff since there are more EOs than OOs; it's creating a nice niche so they don't have to search all over the forum to find OO-related things, respecting the fact that they're a minority in numbers but not in importance - but having the exclusive section for discussion of OO topics isn't a "pen" to restrict them. They (at least for the purposes of the Forum) are as Orthodox as EO (and vice-versa) and have the freedom to discuss their beliefs, practices, etc. freely in all the fora (Faith, Liturgy, etc.).

The difference is neither I nor most other Catholics are anti-EO or anti-OO. Heck, we even let the EO Commune in our Churches. We are charitable and loving to them yet they scoff at us and treat us like we are garbage.

If you're treated poorly by Orthodox people, then they should be ashamed.  But don't use the extension of Communion as a sign of enlightenment or charity; it's a sign of ecclesiastical dysfunction.  Truth be told, our Churches are not in communion at the "national" levels, and thus should not be at the local ones, either; the RC church is being internally inconsistent if it is allowing Orthodox to be routinely (i.e. not under special circumstances) communed in parishes without formal conversion.
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"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
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« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2010, 07:45:02 PM »

I never felt like a second class citizen when I wasn't Orthodox.

Thank you.
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« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2010, 07:49:33 PM »

IIRC Schultz was a mod while he was still a Byzantine Catholic.  

Nope.  He had already converted.  I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure that we've exclusively had Orthodox mods.

Actually, I think both Robert and Fr. Anastasios were both still Byzantine Catholic when the forum started.
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« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2010, 07:52:59 PM »

IIRC Schultz was a mod while he was still a Byzantine Catholic. 

Nope.  He had already converted.  I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure that we've exclusively had Orthodox mods.

Actually, I think both Robert and Fr. Anastasios were both still Byzantine Catholic when the forum.

I thought that was just while it was Byzantines.org.  Maybe I'm wrong - I didn't join until 2 years into the current incarnation.
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« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2010, 08:00:48 PM »

You really are second class citizens here (actually it would be more accurate to say that you really aren't citizens at all), and I don't see how that it is an unreasonable approach.

When I was invited to this forum I was not informed that being Catholic relegated me to second class status nor do I find any such statements in Rules.  
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« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2010, 08:08:36 PM »

You really are second class citizens here (actually it would be more accurate to say that you really aren't citizens at all), and I don't see how that it is an unreasonable approach.

When I was invited to this forum I was not informed that being Catholic relegated me to second class status nor do I find any such statements in Rules.  

It is not explicitly stated but the degree to which you are allowed to participate on this site is established as inherently less than an EO and OO; the logical conclusion of this is that you are regarded as a second class citizen or a non-citizen.
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