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Author Topic: Superiority of Sola Scriptura over Scripture + Orthodox Tradition  (Read 15700 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #225 on: November 06, 2010, 09:04:12 AM »

First of all, Alfred, let me thank you for either staying up really late, or getting up really early - I know we're separated by a three-hour time difference - to follow up on this. I hope you're not neglecting your sleep. Keeping a healthy body is important, too.

Quote
Alfred, are you by any chance connected to this group? Like you, they seem to think that the Apostle Paul's teachings somehow supersede those of the other Apostles.

I have no idea who they are, their beliefs etc., never heard of them.

I do not believe Paul's teachings supersede those of the other apostles.

It may be I cite him more than the other apostles, but that is because he wrote much of our NT, more than the other apostles.
Thank you for clearing that up. I didn't really think you were. I noticed a few similarities, but since the website (at least a quick review - and I didn't go into the forums) didn't actually use the term "Sola Scriptura", though I would think they are without labelling themselves as such - it didn't line up with everything that appears to form your understanding.

Quote
Christ is doing more than disproving Sadduccean belief the soul dies when the body dies, that is not the main thrust of His argument. Rather the symbols imply they err about the power of God to preserve life even in death, and as the scripture has Abraham Issac and Jacob standing before God, this implies the resurrection because God promised these (in scripture) they would serve Him physically forever, and as as they now stand before God continually, they are constant reminders of unfulfilled promises.

<big snips of interesting background>
I'm not sure if by "unfulfilled promises" you mean those that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob looked forward to, or the unfulfilled promises of the Resurrection to which even we look forward to, though we have a greater understanding than the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament. You may mean both. I would think they are both implied.

You may know that the Orthodox focus much more than Protestants on the work of Christ in Hades between His crucifixion and His resurrection. The Liturgy which we celebrate on the morning of Holy Saturday really emphasizes that work, and it's one of my favourite services.

I know, Alfred, that you object to the veneration of icons (we don't need to go back to that, really!) and that because you know icons are associated with veneration you avoid them. Do you object to their use as a teaching tool? If not, I'd invite you to look at this page which depicts and briefly explains the icon of the "Descent into Hades". Some icons of the same event show a greater gathering of Old Testament saints and righteous ones, which may (I don't know for sure) include the patriarchs. Most of them - though I don't see him in the one I've linked to - show Abel. He's the one holding a shepherd's staff. It would be easy to go on - you know that a picture is worth a thousand words!
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« Reply #226 on: November 06, 2010, 10:31:58 AM »

First of all, Alfred, let me thank you for either staying up really late, or getting up really early - I know we're separated by a three-hour time difference - to follow up on this. I hope you're not neglecting your sleep. Keeping a healthy body is important, too.

Quote
Alfred, are you by any chance connected to this group? Like you, they seem to think that the Apostle Paul's teachings somehow supersede those of the other Apostles.

I have no idea who they are, their beliefs etc., never heard of them.

I do not believe Paul's teachings supersede those of the other apostles.

It may be I cite him more than the other apostles, but that is because he wrote much of our NT, more than the other apostles.
Thank you for clearing that up. I didn't really think you were. I noticed a few similarities, but since the website (at least a quick review - and I didn't go into the forums) didn't actually use the term "Sola Scriptura", though I would think they are without labelling themselves as such - it didn't line up with everything that appears to form your understanding.

Quote
Christ is doing more than disproving Sadduccean belief the soul dies when the body dies, that is not the main thrust of His argument. Rather the symbols imply they err about the power of God to preserve life even in death, and as the scripture has Abraham Issac and Jacob standing before God, this implies the resurrection because God promised these (in scripture) they would serve Him physically forever, and as as they now stand before God continually, they are constant reminders of unfulfilled promises.

<big snips of interesting background>
I'm not sure if by "unfulfilled promises" you mean those that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob looked forward to, or the unfulfilled promises of the Resurrection to which even we look forward to, though we have a greater understanding than the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament. You may mean both. I would think they are both implied.

You may know that the Orthodox focus much more than Protestants on the work of Christ in Hades between His crucifixion and His resurrection. The Liturgy which we celebrate on the morning of Holy Saturday really emphasizes that work, and it's one of my favourite services.

I know, Alfred, that you object to the veneration of icons (we don't need to go back to that, really!) and that because you know icons are associated with veneration you avoid them. Do you object to their use as a teaching tool? If not, I'd invite you to look at this page which depicts and briefly explains the icon of the "Descent into Hades". Some icons of the same event show a greater gathering of Old Testament saints and righteous ones, which may (I don't know for sure) include the patriarchs. Most of them - though I don't see him in the one I've linked to - show Abel. He's the one holding a shepherd's staff. It would be easy to go on - you know that a picture is worth a thousand words!

Early to bed, early to rise, that's me.

There are lots more similarities with the Orthodox, on the Holy Trinity, but you haven't suspected me of being Orthodox.  Why not?

Just joking, but also making a point. Similar is not "the same".

Evidently you didn't read the Talmud quotes, then you could have found the promises yourself, the resurrection is deducible from these texts, for the promises made in them aren't fulfilled if these remain dead:

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.(Gen 17:8 KJV)

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (Gen 17:19 KJV)

13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
 (Gen 28:13-15 KJV)

Perhaps this last doesn't apply, but that wouldn't negate Christ's interpretation, only one promise need exist for it to be sound.

Icons of God are forbidden, not of other scenes. I don't believe they are efficient tools for teaching, for example, the one you directed me to, if you didn't explain it was about Christ's descent into hell, I wouldn't have figured that out for myself.

But I don't care about paintings, icons, statues, etc, only images supposedly of God...they are forbidden.

If I ever make a movie of Christ, I wouldn't have any actor play Him, rather we would see the world through His eyes, or not see Him at all. Why misrepresent what He looked like?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 10:46:20 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #227 on: November 06, 2010, 11:18:16 AM »

First of all, Alfred, let me thank you for either staying up really late, or getting up really early - I know we're separated by a three-hour time difference - to follow up on this. I hope you're not neglecting your sleep. Keeping a healthy body is important, too.

Quote
Alfred, are you by any chance connected to this group? Like you, they seem to think that the Apostle Paul's teachings somehow supersede those of the other Apostles.

I have no idea who they are, their beliefs etc., never heard of them.

I do not believe Paul's teachings supersede those of the other apostles.

It may be I cite him more than the other apostles, but that is because he wrote much of our NT, more than the other apostles.
Thank you for clearing that up. I didn't really think you were. I noticed a few similarities, but since the website (at least a quick review - and I didn't go into the forums) didn't actually use the term "Sola Scriptura", though I would think they are without labelling themselves as such - it didn't line up with everything that appears to form your understanding.

Quote
Christ is doing more than disproving Sadduccean belief the soul dies when the body dies, that is not the main thrust of His argument. Rather the symbols imply they err about the power of God to preserve life even in death, and as the scripture has Abraham Issac and Jacob standing before God, this implies the resurrection because God promised these (in scripture) they would serve Him physically forever, and as as they now stand before God continually, they are constant reminders of unfulfilled promises.

<big snips of interesting background>
I'm not sure if by "unfulfilled promises" you mean those that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob looked forward to, or the unfulfilled promises of the Resurrection to which even we look forward to, though we have a greater understanding than the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament. You may mean both. I would think they are both implied.

You may know that the Orthodox focus much more than Protestants on the work of Christ in Hades between His crucifixion and His resurrection. The Liturgy which we celebrate on the morning of Holy Saturday really emphasizes that work, and it's one of my favourite services.

I know, Alfred, that you object to the veneration of icons (we don't need to go back to that, really!) and that because you know icons are associated with veneration you avoid them. Do you object to their use as a teaching tool? If not, I'd invite you to look at this page which depicts and briefly explains the icon of the "Descent into Hades". Some icons of the same event show a greater gathering of Old Testament saints and righteous ones, which may (I don't know for sure) include the patriarchs. Most of them - though I don't see him in the one I've linked to - show Abel. He's the one holding a shepherd's staff. It would be easy to go on - you know that a picture is worth a thousand words!

Early to bed, early to rise, that's me.

There are lots more similarities with the Orthodox, on the Holy Trinity, but you haven't suspected me of being Orthodox.  Why not?

Just joking, but also making a point. Similar is not "the same".

Evidently you didn't read the Talmud quotes, then you could have found the promises yourself, the resurrection is deducible from these texts, for the promises made in them aren't fulfilled if these remain dead:

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.(Gen 17:8 KJV)

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (Gen 17:19 KJV)

13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
 (Gen 28:13-15 KJV)

Perhaps this last doesn't apply, but that wouldn't negate Christ's interpretation, only one promise need exist for it to be sound.

Icons of God are forbidden, not of other scenes. I don't believe they are efficient tools for teaching, for example, the one you directed me to, if you didn't explain it was about Christ's descent into hell, I wouldn't have figured that out for myself.

But I don't care about paintings, icons, statues, etc, only images supposedly of God...they are forbidden.

If I ever make a movie of Christ, I wouldn't have any actor play Him, rather we would see the world through His eyes, or not see Him at all. Why misrepresent what He looked like?


So basically you reject the Incarnation?
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Alfred Persson
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« Reply #228 on: November 06, 2010, 11:33:08 AM »

First of all, Alfred, let me thank you for either staying up really late, or getting up really early - I know we're separated by a three-hour time difference - to follow up on this. I hope you're not neglecting your sleep. Keeping a healthy body is important, too.

Quote
Alfred, are you by any chance connected to this group? Like you, they seem to think that the Apostle Paul's teachings somehow supersede those of the other Apostles.

I have no idea who they are, their beliefs etc., never heard of them.

I do not believe Paul's teachings supersede those of the other apostles.

It may be I cite him more than the other apostles, but that is because he wrote much of our NT, more than the other apostles.
Thank you for clearing that up. I didn't really think you were. I noticed a few similarities, but since the website (at least a quick review - and I didn't go into the forums) didn't actually use the term "Sola Scriptura", though I would think they are without labelling themselves as such - it didn't line up with everything that appears to form your understanding.

Quote
Christ is doing more than disproving Sadduccean belief the soul dies when the body dies, that is not the main thrust of His argument. Rather the symbols imply they err about the power of God to preserve life even in death, and as the scripture has Abraham Issac and Jacob standing before God, this implies the resurrection because God promised these (in scripture) they would serve Him physically forever, and as as they now stand before God continually, they are constant reminders of unfulfilled promises.

<big snips of interesting background>
I'm not sure if by "unfulfilled promises" you mean those that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob looked forward to, or the unfulfilled promises of the Resurrection to which even we look forward to, though we have a greater understanding than the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament. You may mean both. I would think they are both implied.

You may know that the Orthodox focus much more than Protestants on the work of Christ in Hades between His crucifixion and His resurrection. The Liturgy which we celebrate on the morning of Holy Saturday really emphasizes that work, and it's one of my favourite services.

I know, Alfred, that you object to the veneration of icons (we don't need to go back to that, really!) and that because you know icons are associated with veneration you avoid them. Do you object to their use as a teaching tool? If not, I'd invite you to look at this page which depicts and briefly explains the icon of the "Descent into Hades". Some icons of the same event show a greater gathering of Old Testament saints and righteous ones, which may (I don't know for sure) include the patriarchs. Most of them - though I don't see him in the one I've linked to - show Abel. He's the one holding a shepherd's staff. It would be easy to go on - you know that a picture is worth a thousand words!

Early to bed, early to rise, that's me.

There are lots more similarities with the Orthodox, on the Holy Trinity, but you haven't suspected me of being Orthodox.  Why not?

Just joking, but also making a point. Similar is not "the same".

Evidently you didn't read the Talmud quotes, then you could have found the promises yourself, the resurrection is deducible from these texts, for the promises made in them aren't fulfilled if these remain dead:

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.(Gen 17:8 KJV)

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (Gen 17:19 KJV)

13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
 (Gen 28:13-15 KJV)

Perhaps this last doesn't apply, but that wouldn't negate Christ's interpretation, only one promise need exist for it to be sound.

Icons of God are forbidden, not of other scenes. I don't believe they are efficient tools for teaching, for example, the one you directed me to, if you didn't explain it was about Christ's descent into hell, I wouldn't have figured that out for myself.

But I don't care about paintings, icons, statues, etc, only images supposedly of God...they are forbidden.

If I ever make a movie of Christ, I wouldn't have any actor play Him, rather we would see the world through His eyes, or not see Him at all. Why misrepresent what He looked like?


So basically you reject the Incarnation?

No

Thanks for adding to the irrelevant posts which confirm there is no defense for Tradition+Scripture being superior to Sola Scriptura.
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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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« Reply #229 on: November 06, 2010, 12:04:03 PM »


... and as the scripture has Abraham Issac and Jacob standing before God...and as as they now stand before God continually, they are constant reminders of unfulfilled promises.
Quote
Evidently you didn't read the Talmud quotes, then you could have found the promises yourself, the resurrection is deducible from these texts, for the promises made in them aren't fulfilled if these remain dead:

Perhaps this last doesn't apply, but that wouldn't negate Christ's interpretation, only one promise need exist for it to be sound.


Perhaps then I should have focused on "they are constant reminders", which suggests reminders to us of the promises that we await with great expectation. I doubt that we disagree on the point here - just having a hard time getting the words to make that clear.

Quote
Icons of God are forbidden, not of other scenes. I don't believe they are efficient tools for teaching, for example, the one you directed me to, if you didn't explain it was about Christ's descent into hell, I wouldn't have figured that out for myself.
Thank you for taking the time to check it out. Your stand on icons has been noticed around here from time to time  Wink.

You are quite right about needing help understanding that icon. Sometimes explanations are needed, much like Christ's parables. It's from the questions they elicit that teaching arises.

Quote
If I ever make a movie of Christ, I wouldn't have any actor play Him, rather we would see the world through His eyes, or not see Him at all. Why misrepresent what He looked like?
You may find this strange, but I don't think I could go there. It would seem presumptuous of me to put thoughts into Christ's head. Theatrically it would be a fascinating effort, but otherwise, I'm not so sure.

If you wanted to avoid having Christ portrayed by an actor, maybe you could weave a story around people who came into contact with Him during His earthly ministry telling their stories to others.

I understand what you say about not misrepresenting what He looked like. We have to be sure we don't misrepresent anything about Him. And not only that, but playing the role can be demanding on a serious actor. I found this fascinating interview with Jim Caviezel. It doesn't matter what you think of the movie - it has flaws - just notice the effect that playing Jesus had on Caviezel. I've had only a brief career in community theatre (and of course in teaching as a career, I had to play a lot of roles) but it's enough to make clear that I wouldn't want to take on that assignment.
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« Reply #230 on: November 06, 2010, 12:16:19 PM »

So basically you reject the Incarnation?

No

Thanks for adding to the irrelevant posts which confirm there is no defense for Tradition+Scripture being superior to Sola Scriptura.

It's not so irrelevant.  Historically, groups that have rejected icons have had problems with the Incarnation.  The Paulicians, who believed Christ didn't have real flesh, for example, rejected icons.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 05:26:16 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #231 on: November 06, 2010, 06:59:49 PM »

Trolling is not apologetics. This is a game. Roll Eyes

Prediction: Alfred is going to shoot down responses one by one, using badly formatted multicolor Bible verses parsed through his all-holy, immaculate, most blessed and glorious Hermaneutic. Then he will declare victory in this contrived game of his. His ego will be stroked and his insecurities will be driven a little farther off. Rinse and repeat.

[edit] I didn't even submit my post and he already did it. Roll Eyes

Trolling is a fishing term. It's when you drop multiple hooks in the water and drift around waiting for a bite. That's exactly what you're doing constantly.  See why we call you a troll?  

prophecy fulfilled.
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« Reply #232 on: November 06, 2010, 08:04:12 PM »

Prophecy fulfilled indeed.  SO many wonderful points that he has refused to address!
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« Reply #233 on: November 07, 2010, 03:14:43 PM »

Sola Scriptura alone results in a Personal Relationship with Christ, it is impossible Ritual and the Tradition of men lead to Christ's indwelling:

 18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
 19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
 20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
 21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 (Joh 14:18-23 NKJ)

Hence Paul rejoices in leaving ritual "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection":

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
 (Phi 3:3-10 KJV)

He deems all things religious mere rubbish that he win Christ's approval, know Him personally, such is the joy a believer has with His  risen Master Jesus Christ.

This personal relationship with Jesus is the context of much of the NT statements of joy, peace, long suffering, Christianity is not a ritual.

This experience is knowing Christ personally in one's life, its knowing God as Father, and the Holy Spirit as Comforter...it is a deep abiding communion like one has with one's earthly family, built upon a perception, an abiding "knowing one is a child of their parents", that one is home.:

 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 (Gal 4:6 NKJ)

 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

 (Rom 8:14-16 NKJ)

There are no rituals or sacrament that accomplishes what obedience to God's Word., i.e., sola scriptura does.


When we love Christ's Word above the Traditions of men, count all things of the flesh loss that we may win Christ's approval, then it we show we love Him and, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.[/b] (Rev 3:20 KJV)

NIV  Isaiah 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
 2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
 3 Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live
. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
 4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of the peoples.
 5 Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."
 6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
 7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
 11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
 12 You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
 13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree, and instead of briers the myrtle will grow. This will be for the LORD's renown, for an everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed."
 (Isa 55:1 NIV)


The New Testament is the proof of this.

Can any of you cite where following your Tradition resulted in joyous personal fellowship with God in Holy Trinity?



 14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
 15 "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
 16 "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
 17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
 19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
 20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
 21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
 (Joh 17:14-21 NKJ)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 03:38:49 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #234 on: November 07, 2010, 03:39:19 PM »

Sola Scriptura alone results in a Personal Relationship with Christ, it is impossible Ritual and the Tradition of men lead to Christ's indwelling:

 18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
 19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
 20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
 21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 (Joh 14:18-23 NKJ)

Hence Paul rejoices in leaving ritual "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection":

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
 (Phi 3:3-10 KJV)

He deems all things rubbish that he win Christ's approval, such is joyous fellowship Paul has with the risen Christ.

Its clear in all of NT epistle believers have a personal relationship with Christ, not just ritual.

This experience is knowing who Christ is, personally in one's life,  a deep perception the same as "knowing one is a child of their parents", a deep intimate awareness of a reality that transcends all intellectual apprehension...it is a continuous communion:

 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 (Gal 4:6 NKJ)

 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

 (Rom 8:14-16 NKJ)

There are no rituals or sacrament that accomplishes what obedience to God's Word., i.e., sola scriptura does.


When we love Christ's Word above the Traditions of men, count all things of the flesh loss that we may win Christ's approval, then it we show we love Him and, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.[/b] (Rev 3:20 KJV)

NIV  Isaiah 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
 2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
 3 Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live
. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
 4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of the peoples.
 5 Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."
 6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
 7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
 11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
 12 You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
 13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree, and instead of briers the myrtle will grow. This will be for the LORD's renown, for an everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed."
 (Isa 55:1 NIV)

You obviously base that off of assumption; you assume that none of us have a personal relationship with Jesus. We all have a personal relationship with Jesus, and mine own has been enhanced with my conversion to Orthodoxy to such a level I never knew as a Sola Scripturist. Orthodoxy has helped me to realize that there is so much more of a close, personal relationship that I can experience with my Lord and Savior then I could get elsewhere. I have icons of Him to show Him and the world that I love Him, just like I have pictures of my daughter to show her and the world that I love her.

Rituals do help us to have a closer relationship with all of our friends. For example, one of my friends and I would frequent a pool halls to shoot some pool and throw darts. This time spent with each other in close fellowship gave us a bond that is nigh inseparable. Another example is one of my friends and I would go to Kung Fu class together - we would ride together, be in class together and then go to Sonic for dinner afterwards - this has brought us extremely close together and both of these friends and I consider ourselves brothers (one even has two kids who call me Uncle Dave). Likewise the spiritual rituals I do (daily prayers, daily Scripture readings, being in His very presence at Divine Liturgy, etc.) brining me closer to Christ because I am spending so much more time with Him and I receive such a better understanding of Him than I could with out these "vilified" rituals. Of course, Protestants also have rituals they use to have a closer relationship with Christ, they just don't call them rituals because the Protestants fear that word for some reason - but a rose by any other name...
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« Reply #235 on: November 07, 2010, 03:51:37 PM »

Alfred doesn't care what we have to say. I personally responded to similar blathering about rituals and sacraments in that other thread and he blew it off. Alfred likes to hear himself talk, that's all I've concluded.
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« Reply #236 on: November 07, 2010, 04:01:09 PM »

How does he know what an Orthodox liturgy is like, when he's never been to one? Why is 'ritual' supposed to be bad, when Our Lord was pleased to preach in the synagogue in Capernaum, and the Apostles prayed at the prescribed Hours of the day?

I don't know how Alfred can posit that our relationships with God cannot be personal, since Alfred Persson cannot read anybody's heart. If worship and relationship are personal, by definition, they are known by each person. Who is he to demean the faith of another? How could he even begin to know?

Nobody holds a gun to my head to make me go to church. I go because I want to, and I am an adult, who accepts full responsibility for one's actions. Therefore, my participation in what the church is doing is of my own behest. It is not done under duress. I accept everything that comes from what I do, and say, and pray.

If that isn't personal, then you have changed the meaning of the word. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time you have done that.  Roll Eyes

I can show you an occasion where the Orthodox Holy Tradition has borne fruit.

Maybe you've read it before? It's called the New Testament.

You're welcome.
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« Reply #237 on: November 07, 2010, 04:03:35 PM »

Alfred doesn't care what we have to say. I personally responded to similar blathering about rituals and sacraments in that other thread and he blew it off. Alfred likes to hear himself talk, that's all I've concluded.

I think you may be right. Never the twain shall meet.  Undecided
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« Reply #238 on: November 07, 2010, 04:41:43 PM »

You'd almost think Alfred wasn't aware of the fact that the Early Church was entirely liturgical and that the oneness Christ spoke of was experienced in the Eucharist.
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« Reply #239 on: November 07, 2010, 05:11:45 PM »

Sola Scriptura alone results in a Personal Relationship with Christ, it is impossible Ritual and the Tradition of men lead to Christ's indwelling:

But Alfred, how would you know this? You have never experienced Jesus Christ in Orthodox worship.

You are right if what you mean is "it is impossible Ritual and the Tradition of men alone lead to Christ's indwelling". But that's not the Orthodox faith.

In every service I and all others present - not just Orthodox Christians - are censed because each and every one of us has been created in the image of God. I am reminded regularly of my special place in God's creation.

When I receive the Holy Mysteries (Communion), the priest says, "The servant of God, James, partakes of the precious and all-holy Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, unto the forgiveness of sins and unto life everlasting." I have a name; I am a real person when I come before Him. That's personal.

If what you want is to understand the relationship that Orthodox Christians have with our Lord and Saviour, then a simple question would have served your purpose better than the opening line of another argument.

You are likely aware that the phrase "personal relationship" is not Biblical. I'm not aware of any authority that clearly defines it. I'm not opposed to using non-Biblical terms, they are part of the Orthodox Tradition that is in many instances followed by other Christians, for example, "Trinity", but your understanding of "personal relationship" may or may not be the same as that of other Christians. This leads to unnecessary division and quarrelling.
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« Reply #240 on: November 07, 2010, 07:50:35 PM »

Sola Scriptura alone results in a Personal Relationship with Christ, it is impossible Ritual and the Tradition of men lead to Christ's indwelling:

 18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
 19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
 20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
 21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 (Joh 14:18-23 NKJ)

Hence Paul rejoices in leaving ritual "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection":

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
 (Phi 3:3-10 KJV)

He deems all things rubbish that he win Christ's approval, such is joyous fellowship Paul has with the risen Christ.

Its clear in all of NT epistle believers have a personal relationship with Christ, not just ritual.

This experience is knowing who Christ is, personally in one's life,  a deep perception the same as "knowing one is a child of their parents", a deep intimate awareness of a reality that transcends all intellectual apprehension...it is a continuous communion:

 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 (Gal 4:6 NKJ)

 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

 (Rom 8:14-16 NKJ)

There are no rituals or sacrament that accomplishes what obedience to God's Word., i.e., sola scriptura does.


When we love Christ's Word above the Traditions of men, count all things of the flesh loss that we may win Christ's approval, then it we show we love Him and, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.[/b] (Rev 3:20 KJV)

NIV  Isaiah 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
 2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
 3 Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live
. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
 4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of the peoples.
 5 Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."
 6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
 7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
 11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
 12 You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
 13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree, and instead of briers the myrtle will grow. This will be for the LORD's renown, for an everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed."
 (Isa 55:1 NIV)

You obviously base that off of assumption; you assume that none of us have a personal relationship with Jesus. We all have a personal relationship with Jesus, and mine own has been enhanced with my conversion to Orthodoxy to such a level I never knew as a Sola Scripturist. Orthodoxy has helped me to realize that there is so much more of a close, personal relationship that I can experience with my Lord and Savior then I could get elsewhere. I have icons of Him to show Him and the world that I love Him, just like I have pictures of my daughter to show her and the world that I love her.

Rituals do help us to have a closer relationship with all of our friends. For example, one of my friends and I would frequent a pool halls to shoot some pool and throw darts. This time spent with each other in close fellowship gave us a bond that is nigh inseparable. Another example is one of my friends and I would go to Kung Fu class together - we would ride together, be in class together and then go to Sonic for dinner afterwards - this has brought us extremely close together and both of these friends and I consider ourselves brothers (one even has two kids who call me Uncle Dave). Likewise the spiritual rituals I do (daily prayers, daily Scripture readings, being in His very presence at Divine Liturgy, etc.) brining me closer to Christ because I am spending so much more time with Him and I receive such a better understanding of Him than I could with out these "vilified" rituals. Of course, Protestants also have rituals they use to have a closer relationship with Christ, they just don't call them rituals because the Protestants fear that word for some reason - but a rose by any other name...

Incorrect, I cannot possibly know what your relationship is with Christ, or anyone posting here...so NONE of you are in the argument.

That's ego talking....sometimes its not you being discussed.

I know some believe that impossible, they are so important, but it does happen.

Christ said:
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." (Joh 14:21 NKJ)

THERE is the proof of my argument. Sola scriptura is the policy one will keep Christ's commandments above any from men, and Jesus said that obedience to His commands "is the outward physical evidence one loves Jesus."

If you love Jesus, THEN you will be loved by Jesus' Father, and Jesus loves those whom His Father loves, so then He will love and manifest Himself to you.

Sola Scriptura = love of Jesus = Loved by the Father = Loved by Jesus = Manifest Jesus.

Just in case there are some who don't get it, Jesus repeats it:

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
 (Joh 14:23-24 NKJ)

So Christ's indwelling is a direct consequence of sola scriptura.


You would have to prove Christ wrong before you can convince me Jesus indwells because of ritual or sacrament or images.

I don't say you are wrong, I don't know if you are.

I say Jesus is right, and if you want I believe you, then you must prove 1)Christ is wrong 2)You are right also.


But if you asked me to hypothesize, I must conclude any venerating an icon of Jesus, believing it goes to the prototype Jesus in heaven, is thereby testifying Christ is not near, not indwelling. He is far away in heaven, and you are, as it were, placing a long distance call.

To me, veneration of icons, is outward physical evidence the prototype being venerated, is not present.
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« Reply #241 on: November 07, 2010, 08:07:23 PM »

How does he know what an Orthodox liturgy is like, when he's never been to one? Why is 'ritual' supposed to be bad, when Our Lord was pleased to preach in the synagogue in Capernaum, and the Apostles prayed at the prescribed Hours of the day?

I don't know how Alfred can posit that our relationships with God cannot be personal, since Alfred Persson cannot read anybody's heart. If worship and relationship are personal, by definition, they are known by each person. Who is he to demean the faith of another? How could he even begin to know?

Nobody holds a gun to my head to make me go to church. I go because I want to, and I am an adult, who accepts full responsibility for one's actions. Therefore, my participation in what the church is doing is of my own behest. It is not done under duress. I accept everything that comes from what I do, and say, and pray.

If that isn't personal, then you have changed the meaning of the word. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time you have done that.  Roll Eyes

I can show you an occasion where the Orthodox Holy Tradition has borne fruit.

Maybe you've read it before? It's called the New Testament.

You're welcome.

I cited Christ's teaching sola scriptura = love of God = His manifesting Himself to the sola scripturist.

This proves the superiority of sola scriptura over your tradition UNLESS you can cite someone describing their personal experience of Christ, how they know Him personally as LORD, because they kissed xyz icon, or repeated xyz Tradition... or whatever else in the Orthodoxy, that isn't scripture, you do.

I know Christ is right, whether you are has yet to be determined.

Cite someone (an authority, accepted author, priest, bishop etc) who describes the personal relationship with Christ that developed after they did XYZ stipulated by your Tradition.

To insure the integrity of the argument,  we must restrict testimony to known authority that is prior to, or independent of, this argument.

IN other words, I quote Christ to prove my argument sound, not my own testimony.

Therefore you must find "proof" for your side, independent of any posting here, or of any responding to this argument. Surely in the 2,000 years of Orthodoxy, someone "jumped up"  and exclaimed "Now I love Christ's commands in scripture because I kissed xyz icon!" Or something like that.

As Christ insists those who really love Him love His commands in scripture...that is the deciding point.

People can love entities they believe are Jesus, but are not:

 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
 (Gal 1:6-9 NKJ)

They must  prove they love the genuine Jesus of Scripture, by proving their following xyz Orthodox Tradition led to a personal relationship with Christ and they now obey all He taught in scripture, proving they love the genuine Jesus, the real McCoy.

Because those who love the "real McCoy" Jesus,  are loved by His Father, and then Christ loves them because His Father does, and Jesus manifests Himself, dwells within that person.

Simple test of superiority. It should be easy for you to find reams of testimony how doing xyz Orthodox Tradition led to Christ' indwelling, to a profound love of His commandments in scripture, thereby proving one is in love with the real Jesus Christ of Scripture.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 08:30:17 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #242 on: November 07, 2010, 08:15:03 PM »

Then Christ couldn't have blessed the children to whom He spoke, as we read in Matthew 19:

13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” 15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.

Now, did this happen because it was already in something called the Bible, or was it important enough to go in the Gospel, and then the Gospels into the Bible, because of what Jesus did?

See the difference?

By the way, the word "indwelt" isn't in the Bible. You've made it up, you've decided what it means, and you've decided no one else can meet the conditions of this term. Doesn't that sound like playing with loaded dice?

The first self-proclaimed sola Scriptura-ist, the one who coined the term anyway, was Martin Luther. You don't seem to line up with many of the things he said. You've defined your own school of interpretation; you've made a new meaning for it, all your own; you're a Perssonist. Lutherans, to my knowledge, don't believe that anyone with a copy of the Bible can make up meanings as they see fit. Then there would be as many 'salvations' as there are copies of the Bible. That's incoherent. If you don't congress with others on a regular basis, how can you call yourself one of them?

I have posted this before, but the Bible already tells us Who the Word of God is. It's a Person.

John 1

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
   
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”


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« Reply #243 on: November 07, 2010, 08:30:40 PM »

Quote from: Alfred Persson
Cite someone (an authority, accepted author, priest, bishop etc) who describes the personal relationship with Christ that developed after they did XYZ stipulated by your Tradition.

Ah, so now personal experience doesn't count.

You asked for personal experience. It was given, and when you lost the argument, you changed the terms.

 Cheesy

Quote
IN other words, I quote Christ to prove my argument sound, not my own testimony.

Wrong, you quote your own opinion. You asked for proof of people's personal relationships with God. That proof was provided. Then you decided you 'really' meant something else.  Roll Eyes

Why don't you just admit that you will never accept anything posted by anyone Orthodox as proof of anything? When my brother was losing at chess, he had a unique response. He'd knock over the board.

That, of course, is not the same as winning.

What you're doing is called sophistry. It is a rhetorical device by which one assumes one's claim to be the truth, and goes through different explanations of it, rather than 'showing your work' and providing proof for the case. It's not an insult. It's just a fact. Pretty much all of your questions are rhetorical.

Let's cut all this dallying and get to the chase.  You believe what you believe, and we believe what we believe. Why not agree to disagree? Our faith is what it is. It has been here since Christ gave it to the Apostles and the Apostles taught it around the world. It will be here when He comes again with glory.

Will yours?
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« Reply #244 on: November 07, 2010, 09:43:37 PM »

Cite someone (an authority, accepted author, priest, bishop etc) who describes the personal relationship with Christ that developed after they did XYZ stipulated by your Tradition.

To insure the integrity of the argument,  we must restrict testimony to known authority that is prior to, or independent of, this argument.

IN other words, I quote Christ to prove my argument sound, not my own testimony.

Therefore you must find "proof" for your side, independent of any posting here, or of any responding to this argument. Surely in the 2,000 years of Orthodoxy, someone "jumped up"  and exclaimed "Now I love Christ's commands in scripture because I kissed xyz icon!" Or something like that.

They must  prove they love the genuine Jesus of Scripture, by proving their following xyz Orthodox Tradition led to a personal relationship with Christ and they now obey all He taught in scripture, proving they love the genuine Jesus, the real McCoy.

Because those who love the "real McCoy" Jesus,  are loved by His Father, and then Christ loves them because His Father does, and Jesus manifests Himself, dwells within that person.

Simple test of superiority. It should be easy for you to find reams of testimony how doing xyz Orthodox Tradition led to Christ' indwelling, to a profound love of His commandments in scripture, thereby proving one is in love with the real Jesus Christ of Scripture.

You will, no doubt, think this doesn't meet your requirements, but it's interesting nonetheless.  Here is Henry Nouwen's experience of Rublev's Trinity icon:

"During a hard period of my life in which verbal prayer had become nearly impossible and which mental and emotional fatigue had made me the easy victim of feelings of despair and fear; a long and quiet presence to this icon became the beginning of my healing.  As I sat for long hours in front of Rublev's Trinity, I noticed how gradually my gaze became a prayer.  This silent prayer slowly made my inner restlessness melt away and lifted me up into the circle of love, a circle that could not be broken by the powers of the world.  Even as I moved away from the icon and became involved in the many tasks of everyday life, I felt as if I did not have to leave the holy place I had found and could dwell there whatever I did or wherever I went."

He was virtually at the end of himself, almost destroyed by fear and nearly unable to utter a single word of prayer.  An icon of the Holy Trinity is what began his journey back to faith.
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« Reply #245 on: November 07, 2010, 10:10:48 PM »


Cite someone (an authority, accepted author, priest, bishop etc) who describes the personal relationship with Christ that developed after they did XYZ stipulated by your Tradition.

To insure the integrity of the argument,  we must restrict testimony to known authority that is prior to, or independent of, this argument.

IN other words, I quote Christ to prove my argument sound, not my own testimony.

Therefore you must find "proof" for your side, independent of any posting here, or of any responding to this argument. Surely in the 2,000 years of Orthodoxy, someone "jumped up"  and exclaimed "Now I love Christ's commands in scripture because I kissed xyz icon!" Or something like that.
Read the story of St. Mary of Egypt. And yes, the fifth Sunday of Lent is dedicated to her memory. That's authoritative for us because our bishops and priests direct us to commemorate her.

You still seem to ignore the fact that reading and meditating on Scripture would fit your requirement of doing XYZ stipulated by Tradition. You keep trying to separate Scripture from Tradition. I know this is repetitive, but Orthodox Tradition includes Scripture, and is in fact its central feature. To put the same question to you in your terms, can you show me someone who developed a deep, loving, lasting relationship with Christ merely by studying the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, i.e. your tradition?
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« Reply #246 on: November 07, 2010, 10:11:37 PM »

Sola Scriptura alone results in a Personal Relationship with Christ, it is impossible Ritual and the Tradition of men lead to Christ's indwelling:

 18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
 19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
 20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
 21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 (Joh 14:18-23 NKJ)

Hence Paul rejoices in leaving ritual "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection":

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
 (Phi 3:3-10 KJV)

He deems all things rubbish that he win Christ's approval, such is joyous fellowship Paul has with the risen Christ.

Its clear in all of NT epistle believers have a personal relationship with Christ, not just ritual.

This experience is knowing who Christ is, personally in one's life,  a deep perception the same as "knowing one is a child of their parents", a deep intimate awareness of a reality that transcends all intellectual apprehension...it is a continuous communion:

 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 (Gal 4:6 NKJ)

 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

 (Rom 8:14-16 NKJ)

There are no rituals or sacrament that accomplishes what obedience to God's Word., i.e., sola scriptura does.


When we love Christ's Word above the Traditions of men, count all things of the flesh loss that we may win Christ's approval, then it we show we love Him and, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.[/b] (Rev 3:20 KJV)

NIV  Isaiah 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
 2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
 3 Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live
. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
 4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of the peoples.
 5 Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."
 6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
 7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
 11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
 12 You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
 13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree, and instead of briers the myrtle will grow. This will be for the LORD's renown, for an everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed."
 (Isa 55:1 NIV)

You obviously base that off of assumption; you assume that none of us have a personal relationship with Jesus. We all have a personal relationship with Jesus, and mine own has been enhanced with my conversion to Orthodoxy to such a level I never knew as a Sola Scripturist. Orthodoxy has helped me to realize that there is so much more of a close, personal relationship that I can experience with my Lord and Savior then I could get elsewhere. I have icons of Him to show Him and the world that I love Him, just like I have pictures of my daughter to show her and the world that I love her.

Rituals do help us to have a closer relationship with all of our friends. For example, one of my friends and I would frequent a pool halls to shoot some pool and throw darts. This time spent with each other in close fellowship gave us a bond that is nigh inseparable. Another example is one of my friends and I would go to Kung Fu class together - we would ride together, be in class together and then go to Sonic for dinner afterwards - this has brought us extremely close together and both of these friends and I consider ourselves brothers (one even has two kids who call me Uncle Dave). Likewise the spiritual rituals I do (daily prayers, daily Scripture readings, being in His very presence at Divine Liturgy, etc.) brining me closer to Christ because I am spending so much more time with Him and I receive such a better understanding of Him than I could with out these "vilified" rituals. Of course, Protestants also have rituals they use to have a closer relationship with Christ, they just don't call them rituals because the Protestants fear that word for some reason - but a rose by any other name...

Incorrect, I cannot possibly know what your relationship is with Christ, or anyone posting here...so NONE of you are in the argument.

That's ego talking....sometimes its not you being discussed.

I know some believe that impossible, they are so important, but it does happen.

Christ said:
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." (Joh 14:21 NKJ)

THERE is the proof of my argument. Sola scriptura is the policy one will keep Christ's commandments above any from men, and Jesus said that obedience to His commands "is the outward physical evidence one loves Jesus."

If you love Jesus, THEN you will be loved by Jesus' Father, and Jesus loves those whom His Father loves, so then He will love and manifest Himself to you.

Sola Scriptura = love of Jesus = Loved by the Father = Loved by Jesus = Manifest Jesus.

Just in case there are some who don't get it, Jesus repeats it:

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
 (Joh 14:23-24 NKJ)

So Christ's indwelling is a direct consequence of sola scriptura.


You would have to prove Christ wrong before you can convince me Jesus indwells because of ritual or sacrament or images.

I don't say you are wrong, I don't know if you are.

I say Jesus is right, and if you want I believe you, then you must prove 1)Christ is wrong 2)You are right also.


But if you asked me to hypothesize, I must conclude any venerating an icon of Jesus, believing it goes to the prototype Jesus in heaven, is thereby testifying Christ is not near, not indwelling. He is far away in heaven, and you are, as it were, placing a long distance call.

To me, veneration of icons, is outward physical evidence the prototype being venerated, is not present.

But we all are in this argument since you say that one can not have a personal relationship with Jesus through ritual, and yet all of us Orthodox here do have a personal relationship with Jesus through the rituals we do. You have a personal relationship with Jesus (or so you claim) through your own private rituals. Perhaps it is you who should put your ego aside and stop making unfounded claims. I do not have to prove that Jesus is wrong because I do not believe that He is, you perceive that we think He is wrong. You also perceive that because of icons the prototype is not present. We perceive that you are wrong in your arguments and perception is reality. I agree with biro; we should just agree to disagree - that is possibly the best outcome (aside from you converting to Orthodoxy) that we will see here in this discussion or any others you may start/join.
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« Reply #247 on: November 07, 2010, 11:17:38 PM »

But if you asked me to hypothesize, I must conclude any venerating an icon of Jesus, believing it goes to the prototype Jesus in heaven, is thereby testifying Christ is not near, not indwelling. He is far away in heaven, and you are, as it were, placing a long distance call.

To me, veneration of icons, is outward physical evidence the prototype being venerated, is not present.

When I was in the Marine Corps I saluted (venerated) the American Flag (the image) while I was still in America (the prototype). The honor being shown to the flag (the image) was in fact passed on to the country for which it stands (the prototype), and because I was still inside the country, it was not a sign that I was seperated from the prototype of the image to which I was giving honor.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #248 on: November 07, 2010, 11:25:07 PM »

Sola Scriptura alone results in a Personal Relationship with Christ, it is impossible Ritual and the Tradition of men lead to Christ's indwelling:

 18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
 19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
 20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
 21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 (Joh 14:18-23 NKJ)

Hence Paul rejoices in leaving ritual "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection":

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
 (Phi 3:3-10 KJV)

He deems all things rubbish that he win Christ's approval, such is joyous fellowship Paul has with the risen Christ.

Its clear in all of NT epistle believers have a personal relationship with Christ, not just ritual.

This experience is knowing who Christ is, personally in one's life,  a deep perception the same as "knowing one is a child of their parents", a deep intimate awareness of a reality that transcends all intellectual apprehension...it is a continuous communion:

 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 (Gal 4:6 NKJ)

 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

 (Rom 8:14-16 NKJ)

There are no rituals or sacrament that accomplishes what obedience to God's Word., i.e., sola scriptura does.


When we love Christ's Word above the Traditions of men, count all things of the flesh loss that we may win Christ's approval, then it we show we love Him and, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.[/b] (Rev 3:20 KJV)

NIV  Isaiah 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
 2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
 3 Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live
. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
 4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of the peoples.
 5 Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."
 6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
 7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
 11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
 12 You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
 13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree, and instead of briers the myrtle will grow. This will be for the LORD's renown, for an everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed."
 (Isa 55:1 NIV)

You obviously base that off of assumption; you assume that none of us have a personal relationship with Jesus. We all have a personal relationship with Jesus, and mine own has been enhanced with my conversion to Orthodoxy to such a level I never knew as a Sola Scripturist. Orthodoxy has helped me to realize that there is so much more of a close, personal relationship that I can experience with my Lord and Savior then I could get elsewhere. I have icons of Him to show Him and the world that I love Him, just like I have pictures of my daughter to show her and the world that I love her.

Rituals do help us to have a closer relationship with all of our friends. For example, one of my friends and I would frequent a pool halls to shoot some pool and throw darts. This time spent with each other in close fellowship gave us a bond that is nigh inseparable. Another example is one of my friends and I would go to Kung Fu class together - we would ride together, be in class together and then go to Sonic for dinner afterwards - this has brought us extremely close together and both of these friends and I consider ourselves brothers (one even has two kids who call me Uncle Dave). Likewise the spiritual rituals I do (daily prayers, daily Scripture readings, being in His very presence at Divine Liturgy, etc.) brining me closer to Christ because I am spending so much more time with Him and I receive such a better understanding of Him than I could with out these "vilified" rituals. Of course, Protestants also have rituals they use to have a closer relationship with Christ, they just don't call them rituals because the Protestants fear that word for some reason - but a rose by any other name...

Incorrect, I cannot possibly know what your relationship is with Christ, or anyone posting here...so NONE of you are in the argument.

That's ego talking....sometimes its not you being discussed.

I know some believe that impossible, they are so important, but it does happen.

Christ said:
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." (Joh 14:21 NKJ)

THERE is the proof of my argument. Sola scriptura is the policy one will keep Christ's commandments above any from men, and Jesus said that obedience to His commands "is the outward physical evidence one loves Jesus."

If you love Jesus, THEN you will be loved by Jesus' Father, and Jesus loves those whom His Father loves, so then He will love and manifest Himself to you.

Sola Scriptura = love of Jesus = Loved by the Father = Loved by Jesus = Manifest Jesus.

Just in case there are some who don't get it, Jesus repeats it:

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
 (Joh 14:23-24 NKJ)

So Christ's indwelling is a direct consequence of sola scriptura.


You would have to prove Christ wrong before you can convince me Jesus indwells because of ritual or sacrament or images.

I don't say you are wrong, I don't know if you are.

I say Jesus is right, and if you want I believe you, then you must prove 1)Christ is wrong 2)You are right also.


But if you asked me to hypothesize, I must conclude any venerating an icon of Jesus, believing it goes to the prototype Jesus in heaven, is thereby testifying Christ is not near, not indwelling. He is far away in heaven, and you are, as it were, placing a long distance call.

To me, veneration of icons, is outward physical evidence the prototype being venerated, is not present.

But we all are in this argument since you say that one can not have a personal relationship with Jesus through ritual, and yet all of us Orthodox here do have a personal relationship with Jesus through the rituals we do. You have a personal relationship with Jesus (or so you claim) through your own private rituals. Perhaps it is you who should put your ego aside and stop making unfounded claims. I do not have to prove that Jesus is wrong because I do not believe that He is, you perceive that we think He is wrong. You also perceive that because of icons the prototype is not present. We perceive that you are wrong in your arguments and perception is reality. I agree with biro; we should just agree to disagree - that is possibly the best outcome (aside from you converting to Orthodoxy) that we will see here in this discussion or any others you may start/join.


We cannot allow experimenter's bias ruin the objectivity necessary for knowing the truth, whether your Tradition has any real value towards developing a personal relationship with God.

Hence I restrict myself to the NT data, Christ's express words in particular, precisely because that is independent of me. Its objective material.

I am willing to consider Orthodox extra biblical evidence your Tradition, whatever you say it is, can replicate the results of sola scriptura as defined by Jesus Christ.

21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." (Joh 14:21 NKJ)

THERE is precisely what your Tradition must replicate for it to have equal standing with Scripture.

Jesus says His Words, which are in scripture, when "had" by someone who "keeps them," is evidence that Possessor/Keeper loves Jesus, then the Father loves that Possessor/Keeper/Lover of Jesus.

AND then in response to the Father's love, Jesus loves the Possessor/Keeper/Lover of Jesus.

THAT results in Christ's manifestation, and both He and His Father make their home in the "lover":

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (Joh 14:23NKJ)

So Christ's indwelling is a direct consequence of sola scriptura. Keeping Christ's commands above all others = sola scriptura.



If Orthodox Tradition cannot accomplish the same, and you have 2,000 years to draw from, it is irrelevant.

Therefore I propose you plumb your 2,000 year history of Tradition, and find us one "saint" who after doing what your Tradition say to do, confesses they have replicated the love for Christ's Word in Scripture, and God's indwelling.

The NT is filled with examples of those who now speak of Jesus as to their LORD and Master whom they know personally, of God as their ABBA "Father," of the Holy Spirit as their "Comforter."

Their Christianity is not a religious rite consisting of rules and formal way of dress...its clear they have a personal relationship with God. Show us how that also resulted from someone in Orthodox History, apart from Scripture, because of Orthodox Tradition...

For example,  did any kiss an icon and then proclaim how they love the teachings of Christ in the Gospels? Or do any Orthodox saint ascribe a personal relationship with God to something else in your Tradition, a sacrament perhaps?

If your Tradition, by itself, does not create personal relationships with God, as Scripture does, then it is irrelevant. Certainly inferior to sola scriptura for the truth required to to know God personally.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 11:32:54 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #249 on: November 07, 2010, 11:29:34 PM »

We have said that it does, but see? No matter what, he doesn't accept them, and it doesn't matter. It's not good enough for him. It will never be good enough for him. And that's the point.


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« Reply #250 on: November 07, 2010, 11:30:49 PM »

Alfred, you keep appealing to Sola Scriptura as if it's an identifiable, objective thing, but you fail to see that it is a different thing for different people and it ultimately always comes down to an individual's interpretation.  This is the problem.  You are placing your faith in your own ability to determine the correct interpretation of scripture, which is why people keep calling it Perssonism.  There is no objectivity with a Sola Scriptura stance; it's impossible.

And, as we have said time and time again, your dichotomy of Scripture vs Tradition is a false one.  They are not pitted against each other.
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« Reply #251 on: November 07, 2010, 11:33:44 PM »

Indeed, since Scripture is a part of our Tradition, and the canon was formed using Tradition.
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« Reply #252 on: November 07, 2010, 11:39:06 PM »

By the way, has anyone been converted by Alfred yet?  Has anyone decided to give up icons yet, or to look to Alfred for their interpretation of the Bible instead of an interpretation given by 2,000 years of Christian witness (i.e. Tradition?)

I'm just wondering.  Don't be shy:  If Alfred has converted you, we'd all be interested in hearing about what it is he has said that worked for you. 
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« Reply #253 on: November 07, 2010, 11:39:59 PM »

We have said that it does, but see? No matter what, he doesn't accept them, and it doesn't matter. It's not good enough for him. It will never be good enough for him. And that's the point.


http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1240847#m_en_us1240847

disingenuous(dis·in·gen·u·ous)

Pronunciation:/ˌdisinˈjenyo͞oəs/
adjective

      not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does

You claim to have made an argument, where? when? copy paste it here, my argument, and your reply, or your argument against a premise of mine, that is relevant.

Your posts are DEFLECTION, nothing more.

Evidently you can't find one Orthodox saint who, after kissing an icon, or partaking of a sacrament, or whatever it is you do in Orthodox Tradition that is supposed to draw you closer to God, if it didn't lead to Christ's indwelling, as happens when sola scriptura is followed, precisely as Jesus said, it clearly is inferior...yea, even irrelevant.

21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." (Joh 14:21 NKJ)

THERE is precisely what your Tradition must replicate for it to have equal standing with Scripture.

Jesus says His Words, which are in scripture, when "had" by someone who "keeps them," is evidence that Possessor/Keeper loves Jesus, then the Father loves that Possessor/Keeper/Lover of Jesus.

AND then in response to the Father's love, Jesus loves the Possessor/Keeper/Lover of Jesus.

THAT results in Christ's manifestation, and both He and His Father make their home in the "lover":

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (Joh 14:23NKJ)


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« Reply #254 on: November 07, 2010, 11:45:45 PM »

Alfred, perhaps you missed this link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_of_Egypt

Money quote:  "Her Vita relates that when she tried to enter the Church of the Holy Sepulchre for the celebration, she was barred from doing so by an unseen force. Realizing that this was because of her impurity, she was struck with remorse, and on seeing an icon of the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary) outside the church, she prayed for forgiveness and promised to give up the world (i.e., become an ascetic). Then she attempted again to enter the church, and this time was permitted in. After venerating the relic of the true cross, she returned to the icon to give thanks, and heard a voice telling her, "If you cross the Jordan, you will find glorious rest/ true peace." She immediately went to the monastery of St. John the Baptist on the bank of the River Jordan, where she received absolution and afterwards Holy Communion."

This is a direct correlation of an icon and conversion, by an Orthodox Saint, who came to know the real Christ; what you call a "Real McCoy."
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« Reply #255 on: November 07, 2010, 11:51:56 PM »

But if you asked me to hypothesize, I must conclude any venerating an icon of Jesus, believing it goes to the prototype Jesus in heaven, is thereby testifying Christ is not near, not indwelling. He is far away in heaven, and you are, as it were, placing a long distance call.

To me, veneration of icons, is outward physical evidence the prototype being venerated, is not present.

When I was in the Marine Corps I saluted (venerated) the American Flag (the image) while I was still in America (the prototype). The honor being shown to the flag (the image) was in fact passed on to the country for which it stands (the prototype), and because I was still inside the country, it was not a sign that I was seperated from the prototype of the image to which I was giving honor.

Your analogy is unsound, to illustrate:

I bite into an apple and claim it proves what an orange tastes like. No, it does not, because the properties relevant to the comparison, are incompatible.

In similar fashion, your comparison of flag to icon is unsound.

A flag is a symbol, NOT an icon. A flag does not have a prototype, an icon does. The United States is not a person with a presence, its a country with geographical boundaries.

A sound analogy, as you believe you are communicating with the prototype via the icon, is a telephone. Just as you are talking "long distance" via the icon, so one talks "long distance" via a telephone.

Therefore the properties relevant to the comparison are compatible. Just as calling long distance via telephone proves the person being called is not present, so also calling long distance via an icon proves the person is not present.

This is serious as it is written:

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (Rom 8:9 NKJ)
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« Reply #256 on: November 07, 2010, 11:52:59 PM »

(sigh) Pearls before swine, folks ...
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« Reply #257 on: November 07, 2010, 11:54:59 PM »

By the way, has anyone been converted by Alfred yet?  Has anyone decided to give up icons yet, or to look to Alfred for their interpretation of the Bible instead of an interpretation given by 2,000 years of Christian witness (i.e. Tradition?)

I'm just wondering.  Don't be shy:  If Alfred has converted you, we'd all be interested in hearing about what it is he has said that worked for you. 

Let's see. I've engaged Alfred a fair amount in the last few months. Today I read some proscribed prayers from a prayer book, lit a candle, kissed some icons, participated in ritual worship, and ate what I trust to be Our Lord's true Body and Blood.

Nope. Still Orthodox. *shrug*
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« Reply #258 on: November 07, 2010, 11:55:44 PM »

(sigh) Pearls before swine, folks ...
Yup. That, and don't feed the troll. Wink
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« Reply #259 on: November 07, 2010, 11:56:18 PM »

(sigh) Pearls before swine, folks ...

Evidently you can't find one Orthodox saint who, after kissing an icon, or partaking of a sacrament, or whatever it is you do in Orthodox Tradition that is supposed to draw you closer to God, if it didn't lead to Christ's indwelling, as happens when sola scriptura is followed, precisely as Jesus said, it clearly is inferior...yea, even irrelevant.
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« Reply #260 on: November 07, 2010, 11:57:06 PM »

By the way, has anyone been converted by Alfred yet?  Has anyone decided to give up icons yet, or to look to Alfred for their interpretation of the Bible instead of an interpretation given by 2,000 years of Christian witness (i.e. Tradition?)

I'm just wondering.  Don't be shy:  If Alfred has converted you, we'd all be interested in hearing about what it is he has said that worked for you.  

Let's see. I've engaged Alfred a fair amount in the last few months. Today I read some proscribed prayers from a prayer book, lit a candle, kissed some icons, participated in ritual worship, and ate what I trust to be Our Lord's true Body and Blood.

Nope. Still Orthodox. *shrug*


Evidently you can't find one Orthodox saint who, after kissing an icon, or partaking of a sacrament, or whatever it is you do in Orthodox Tradition that is supposed to draw you closer to God---that did the same as scripture. If it didn't lead to Christ's indwelling,precisely as Jesus said, then your Tradition is clearly inferior to Sola Scriptura...yea, even irrelevant.
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« Reply #261 on: November 07, 2010, 11:58:10 PM »

Alfred just ignores most of the posts against him, or immediately says it 'doesn't constitute an argument.' That's his tactic. That's it. Does he seriously want us to re-post most of this thread? Is he kidding?  Huh

Again, he claims that there is no argument against him, that there can never be one. By default, all his posts are rhetorical. Now, he said he was going to proselytize, but he has also appeared to entertain a discussion or ongoing debate. The gig is up. (Was it ever really otherwise?)

If someone is playing with loaded dice, there is fundamentally no game going on. There is only a fixed set, and the process of waiting for the other party to walk into a set-up.

Alfred is what he is. He is here to preach. There's nothing to worry about, because he can't hurt the faith, but he thinks there was another Christianity taking place all along, while Jesus and the Apostles went about their business... and there wasn't.
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« Reply #262 on: November 07, 2010, 11:59:58 PM »

Alfred just ignores most of the posts against him, or immediately says it 'doesn't constitute an argument.' That's his tactic. That's it. Does he seriously want us to re-post most of this thread? Is he kidding?  Huh

Again, he claims that there is no argument against him, that there can never be one. By default, all his posts are rhetorical. Now, he said he was going to proselytize, but he has also appeared to entertain a discussion or ongoing debate. The gig is up. (Was it ever really otherwise?)

If someone is playing with loaded dice, there is fundamentally no game going on. There is only a fixed set, and the process of waiting for the other party to walk into a set-up.

Alfred is what he is. He is here to preach. There's nothing to worry about, because he can't hurt the faith, but he thinks there was another Christianity taking place all along, while Jesus and the Apostles went about their business... and there wasn't.


If you ever had an argument, I really think it would render you unconscious. The sudden burst of critical thinking, would overwhelm your synapses.

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« Reply #263 on: November 08, 2010, 12:01:21 AM »

Alfred,

Do you believe that only people who can read will be saved?  Do you believe that illiterate people who can't read the Bible go to hell?

How about the people who lived before the Bible as we know it was compiled or even written?  Are they lost?  How about the Thief on the Cross?  He never read a Christian Bible and yet Christ told him he would be in Paradise.  Was Christ just kidding him?  

The Apostle Paul never quotes any of the Gospels, which means he probably never read them.  Can he be saved?  Did he fall off his horse and come to believe in Christ after reading a Christian Bible?  I guess I am trying to understand how from your point of view St. Paul, or the Thief on the Cross, or anyone who lived before the Bible existed could possibly be saved, since they did not have access to your god, (i.e. the Bible.)

We Orthodox Christians have the Bible and love it, but the Bible is not our god.  The Holy Trinity is God.  God is greater than the Bible and existed before the Bible.  Our Tradition, which is the witness of all Christians everywhere at all times, tells us of God.  Tradition includes the Bible, but it is more than that, which is how Christians who existed before the Bible as we know it could know Christ and be saved.  

I guess I just don't get how someone can equate the Bible with salvation.  We Orthodox Christians equate Christ with salvation.  Could it be we have been wrong all these 2000 years?
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« Reply #264 on: November 08, 2010, 12:01:36 AM »

By the way, has anyone been converted by Alfred yet?  Has anyone decided to give up icons yet, or to look to Alfred for their interpretation of the Bible instead of an interpretation given by 2,000 years of Christian witness (i.e. Tradition?)

I'm just wondering.  Don't be shy:  If Alfred has converted you, we'd all be interested in hearing about what it is he has said that worked for you.  

Let's see. I've engaged Alfred a fair amount in the last few months. Today I read some proscribed prayers from a prayer book, lit a candle, kissed some icons, participated in ritual worship, and ate what I trust to be Our Lord's true Body and Blood.

Nope. Still Orthodox. *shrug*


Evidently you can't find one Orthodox saint who, after kissing an icon, or partaking of a sacrament, or whatever it is you do in Orthodox Tradition that is supposed to draw you closer to God---that did the same as scripture. If it didn't lead to Christ's indwelling,precisely as Jesus said, then your Tradition is clearly inferior to Sola Scriptura...yea, even irrelevant.

The Prayers Before Holy Communion
Prayer 1, A Prayer of Saint Basil the Great

... Take away the heavy burden of my sins, O Thou that takest away the sins of the world, and healest the infirmities of men, and callest all that are weary and heavy laden to thyself and givest them rest; thou that camest not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance, cleanse thou me from all stain of body and soul and teach me to fulfill holiness in thy fear, that with the witness of my conscience pure, I may receive a portion of thy Holy Gifts, and be united to thy Holy Body and Precious Blood, and may have thee, with thy Father and Holy Spirit, dwelling and abiding in me. ...
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« Reply #265 on: November 08, 2010, 12:01:57 AM »

By the way, has anyone been converted by Alfred yet?  Has anyone decided to give up icons yet, or to look to Alfred for their interpretation of the Bible instead of an interpretation given by 2,000 years of Christian witness (i.e. Tradition?)

I'm just wondering.  Don't be shy:  If Alfred has converted you, we'd all be interested in hearing about what it is he has said that worked for you.  

Let's see. I've engaged Alfred a fair amount in the last few months. Today I read some proscribed prayers from a prayer book, lit a candle, kissed some icons, participated in ritual worship, and ate what I trust to be Our Lord's true Body and Blood.

Nope. Still Orthodox. *shrug*


Evidently you can't find one Orthodox saint who, after kissing an icon, or partaking of a sacrament, or whatever it is you do in Orthodox Tradition that is supposed to draw you closer to God---that did the same as scripture. If it didn't lead to Christ's indwelling,precisely as Jesus said, then your Tradition is clearly inferior to Sola Scriptura...yea, even irrelevant.

I'll direct you to post #254 for ease of use, though it's the same thing you've ignored over and over now.  
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« Reply #266 on: November 08, 2010, 12:02:29 AM »

Alfred just ignores most of the posts against him, or immediately says it 'doesn't constitute an argument.' That's his tactic. That's it. Does he seriously want us to re-post most of this thread? Is he kidding?  Huh

Again, he claims that there is no argument against him, that there can never be one. By default, all his posts are rhetorical. Now, he said he was going to proselytize, but he has also appeared to entertain a discussion or ongoing debate. The gig is up. (Was it ever really otherwise?)

If someone is playing with loaded dice, there is fundamentally no game going on. There is only a fixed set, and the process of waiting for the other party to walk into a set-up.

Alfred is what he is. He is here to preach. There's nothing to worry about, because he can't hurt the faith, but he thinks there was another Christianity taking place all along, while Jesus and the Apostles went about their business... and there wasn't.


If you ever had an argument, I really think it would render you unconscious. The sudden burst of critical thinking, would overwhelm your synapses.



Quit being rude. Your unbridled pride is getting annoying.
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« Reply #267 on: November 08, 2010, 12:03:14 AM »

Alfred again ignores post #254, which provides the answer about an Orthodox saint who was converted by, among other things, the spiritual experience garnered by praying with and kissing an icon.

Is something wrong with his computer screen? Does he just not want to read all the posts?

Or does he just refuse to admit it, perhaps because it's fun to play some kind of game?

It's there, Alfred. No one else can do the reading for you.
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« Reply #268 on: November 08, 2010, 12:05:43 AM »

I think he's trying to decide which color of text he wants to bold in order to somehow say that story is bogus or doesn't meet his criteria.
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« Reply #269 on: November 08, 2010, 12:06:06 AM »

(sigh) Pearls before swine, folks ...
Yup. That, and don't feed the troll. Wink

Alfred a troll? Can that be made a moderational decision and have Alfred be muted?  police
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