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Author Topic: Superiority of Sola Scriptura over Scripture + Orthodox Tradition  (Read 15711 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2010, 12:39:30 PM »

The reason for the development of Sola Scriptura was as a defense against the claims of the Pope as being infallible. We fully agree with the Protestant Tradition in the regard to the Pope's heresy. But you must also see that claiming for yourself infallibility is also equally in error. Infallibility comes from the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ said when two or more are gathered in my name. Not an individual and not when we are gathered for our own glorification and pride.

Well said.   Smiley
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« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2010, 12:52:34 PM »

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
 (Mat 8:28-32 KJV)

The drowning of the pigs does not seem to be part of the deal. Why did the swine run into the sea, and perish?

If tradition can reveal such mystery, then its inspired by God. An analogy:

 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.[/i]
 (Pro 1:22-23 KJV)


If tradition cannot answer such questions, but a diligent Bible student via sound hermeneutic principles and sola scriptura can, then sola scriptura is clearly the certified "Way of God to understand His Scripture."

So I will give you folks a chance to reveal this mystery using whatever you can, plus your Tradition:

Why did the swine rush into the sea, and perish?




Sorry, you don't get to set the rules here.

I'm not setting rules at all, its called apologetic...I can prove sola scriptura superior to any other methodology for truth.
Actually, yes you are setting the rules here. You have already determined what the "correct" interpretation of this passage of Scripture is. You have already determined that those who don't interpret this passage as you do are wrong. You have therefore concluded that if our Tradition cannot lead us to interpret this passage of Scripture as you do, our Tradition must not be inspired and sola scriptura (i.e., Alfred Perssonism) wins. You're essentially asking us to search our Tradition to see if it can empower us to read your mind. Hopefully now you can see the game so many of us have chosen not to play.
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« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2010, 01:05:13 PM »


 

Sorry, you don't get to set the rules here.

I'm not setting rules at all, its called apologetic...I can prove sola scriptura superior to any other methodology for truth.
Actually, yes you are setting the rules here. You have already determined what the "correct" interpretation of this passage of Scripture is. You have already determined that those who don't interpret this passage as you do are wrong. You have therefore concluded that if our Tradition cannot lead us to interpret this passage of Scripture as you do, our Tradition must not be inspired and sola scriptura (i.e., Alfred Perssonism) wins. You're essentially asking us to search our Tradition to see if it can empower us to read your mind. Hopefully now you can see the game so many of us have chosen not to play.
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« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2010, 01:21:29 PM »

I will give you folks till 0001 Tuesday, PST to find the interpretation of this parable in your tradition.


Sometime after that I will explain the parable, and you will know precisely:

a)why they ran into the lake;
b)what happened to them after they did;
c)why Jesus agreed to their request

Everything about this will be revealed. AND you will know the interpretation is correct, because the Holy Spirit will bear you witness, grant you perception it is correct.


And this will be a sign from God sola scriptura is the right methodology for establishing the doctrines of the Christian faith

Why would we listen to a word you say when you obviously don't even know what a parable is?  This PERICOPE is NOT a parable.  It actually happened.  A PARABLE is a story that is told in order to illustrate a truth, but did not actually happen, such as that of the Prodigal Son.  Looks like you need to go back to basics.

Who told you its impossible God tell a parable, using actors on His stage?
That's exactly my point!  This is not a story that God told.  It is an actual event that He participated in which was later relayed by the Evangelist Matthew.  So, unless you think the entire Gospel is a fictional story(or that God didn't/doesn't exist, or that he was just an actor), this pericope is NOT a parable.

Quote
This event teaches lessons, but only to those who are His, those on the outside, look but cannot see...can make no sense of it.
If, sir, you are implying that I am one of those on the outside who are not His and thus cannot understand, then I would reply by saying that you probably need to read the Gospels a little more carefully yourself, and take to heart the passages about passing judgment on others.

Quote
So, tell us:

a)why they ran into the lake;
b)what happened to them after they did;
c)why Jesus agreed to their request


I believe someone infinitely more patient than myself has already answered this with passages by Chrysostom (a post to which you did not reply).  I would have posted the same thing, had I the inclination to engage in your ridiculous and academically dishonest discussions... Which I don't.
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« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2010, 02:03:31 PM »

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
 (Mat 8:28-32 KJV)

The drowning of the pigs does not seem to be part of the deal. Why did the swine run into the sea, and perish?

If tradition can reveal such mystery, then its inspired by God. An analogy:

 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.[/i]
 (Pro 1:22-23 KJV)


If tradition cannot answer such questions, but a diligent Bible student via sound hermeneutic principles and sola scriptura can, then sola scriptura is clearly the certified "Way of God to understand His Scripture."

So I will give you folks a chance to reveal this mystery using whatever you can, plus your Tradition:

Why did the swine rush into the sea, and perish?





Another stray and tangled thread. What a suprise.

As to the title, since Scripture tells us to hold fast to Tradition, but the scripture does not teach sola scriptura, the answer should be self evident. We all know why it isn't to you.

Are you a member of P.E.T.A., and that's why you are worried about the swine?

Can you explain how answering a fool in his folly would prove anything, particularly that Tradition is inspired by God? Only an evil generation seeks a sign.
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« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2010, 02:06:51 PM »

So, what's your interpretation of this passage, Alfred?

*bump*

Its too early for that...I must give you folks reasonable time to research this in your tradition, and prove its worth.

LOL. Prove it to whom? The worthless?
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« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2010, 02:11:36 PM »

Trolling is not apologetics. This is a game. Roll Eyes

Prediction: Alfred is going to shoot down responses one by one, using badly formatted multicolor Bible verses parsed through his all-holy, immaculate, most blessed and glorious Hermaneutic. Then he will declare victory in this contrived game of his. His ego will be stroked and his insecurities will be driven a little farther off. Rinse and repeat.

[edit] I didn't even submit my post and he already did it. Roll Eyes

Trolling is a fishing term. It's when you drop multiple hooks in the water and drift around waiting for a bite. That's exactly what you're doing constantly.  See why we call you a troll?  

Incorrect. BUT any correct interpretation will actually explain this, and not change the subject.

It is a fair test, this is a parable, and if one's methodology results in the Bible being a sealed book, then clearly that methodology is wrong.

Scripture says those who follow traditions of men will not be able to understand the Word of God, the book will be sealed to them:
Including the man Alfread Persson, who seems to have a following of two, he and himself.

As for those who stand fast and hold to the Traditions received of the Apostles, as St. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, of course know this beforehand, and beware lest they also fall from their own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as St. (II) Peter (3) writes.
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« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2010, 02:13:25 PM »

I don't want to commit an ad hominem, but you are more than a little egomaniacal.

Yes please, come down from the mountain like Moses and share with us unwashed masses the mind of God, O enlightened one.  Roll Eyes 
Did Alfred and Dattaswami go up the same mountain but fallen down different sides?
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« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2010, 02:14:24 PM »

So, what's your interpretation of this passage, Alfred?

*bump*

Its too early for that...I must give you folks reasonable time to research this in your tradition, and prove its worth.

IMHO, your tone is becoming taunting.  Kindly reconsider your position.

No taunt in that at all.

Therefore your reply appears strategic---debate strategy, claim offense where none exists, to evade,  to obfuscate, to misdirect.
...no arguing there: you're the master.
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« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2010, 02:20:14 PM »

Trying to eliminate yourself from contention for having a Devils Advocate? Cheesy Or did you think I was directing that comment at you. I should have prefaced that it was meant for Alfred, sorry for any confusion.

I find the Bible infinitely more perspicacious than your writing.

The Bible is our writing.


Quote
I don't believe sound methods of interpretation will actually work with your writing.

Since you use unsound ones, how can you tell?

Quote
Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what the heck you are saying...I'm already convinced it won't be worth my time, so prove me wrong.
" rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you" Mat. 15:7 et alia.
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« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2010, 02:26:35 PM »

Isa, Alfred doesn't need any more incentive, so stop feeding him.
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« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2010, 02:32:39 PM »

Isa, Alfred doesn't need any more incentive, so stop feeding him.
As I have often said, I don't do it for Alfred.
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« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2010, 02:39:26 PM »

Sola Scripture is a contradiction of terms. The scriptures of the Bible were selected by the Church through Tradition. So accepting scripture is in itself accepting Tradition.


I'm playing. But no one will play with me Sad

Incorrect, sola scriptura is the logical consequence of solum verbum dei which Catholics, including the Orthodox, believe.

Where we differ is what we define as the deposit of the faith, i.e., what constitutes the  "word of God," while you include tradition, we do not.

Both both of us can find solum verbum dei in scripture:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)

The real contradiction, is in your position. If God wanted your traditions added to the Word of God, He would have said so:

 2 "You shall add to the word which I command you, not take from it, that you may keep the commandments we command you.


Tradition is the Word of God. Scripture is only that part of Tradition which was written down and accepted by the Church as being true. Accepting scripture is accepting Tradition.

He did say so. You only know what the Church wrote you do not know what He said. Only the Church does.

The church canonized the word of God in scripture, so we know what it is precisely.

Why didn't they canonize the word of God in tradition, so we know what it is precisely?
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« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2010, 02:41:07 PM »

For the benefit of those actually wondering about the passage (versus those who likely don't care *cough* OP *cough*), here's one position from Peter Chrysologus (c. 380-450), Archbishop of Ravenna:

Quote from: Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament Ia, Matthew 1-13; Manlio Simonetti, ed.; pp. 171-172
"He said to them, 'Go!'"  The foul-smelling animals are delivered up, not at the will of the demons but to show how savage the demons can become against humans.  They ardently seek to destroy and dispossess all that is, acts, moves, and lives.  They seek the death of people.  The ancient enmity of deep-rooted wrath and malice is in store for the human race.  Demons do not give up easily unless they are forcibly overcome.  They are doing the harm they are ordered to do.  Therefore the foul-smelling animals are delivered up that it may be made clear to the demons that they have permission to enter the swine but not to enter humans.  It is by our vices that we empower them to do harm.  Similarly, by our power of faith we tread on the necks of demons.  They become subject to us under Christ who is triumphant.

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« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2010, 02:43:16 PM »

Isa, Alfred doesn't need any more incentive, so stop feeding him.
As I have often said, I don't do it for Alfred.

I prefer your long eloquent posts filled with icons, they were impressive as I scrolled down to the next post.
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« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2010, 02:47:27 PM »

I will give you folks till 0001 Tuesday, PST to find the interpretation of this parable in your tradition.


Sometime after that I will explain the parable, and you will know precisely:

a)why they ran into the lake;
b)what happened to them after they did;
c)why Jesus agreed to their request

Everything about this will be revealed. AND you will know the interpretation is correct, because the Holy Spirit will bear you witness, grant you perception it is correct.


And this will be a sign from God sola scriptura is the right methodology for establishing the doctrines of the Christian faith

Why would we listen to a word you say when you obviously don't even know what a parable is?  This PERICOPE is NOT a parable.  It actually happened.  A PARABLE is a story that is told in order to illustrate a truth, but did not actually happen, such as that of the Prodigal Son.  Looks like you need to go back to basics.

Who told you its impossible God tell a parable, using actors on His stage?
That's exactly my point!  This is not a story that God told.  It is an actual event that He participated in which was later relayed by the Evangelist Matthew.  So, unless you think the entire Gospel is a fictional story(or that God didn't/doesn't exist, or that he was just an actor), this pericope is NOT a parable.

Quote
This event teaches lessons, but only to those who are His, those on the outside, look but cannot see...can make no sense of it.
If, sir, you are implying that I am one of those on the outside who are not His and thus cannot understand, then I would reply by saying that you probably need to read the Gospels a little more carefully yourself, and take to heart the passages about passing judgment on others.

Quote
So, tell us:

a)why they ran into the lake;
b)what happened to them after they did;
c)why Jesus agreed to their request


I believe someone infinitely more patient than myself has already answered this with passages by Chrysostom (a post to which you did not reply).  I would have posted the same thing, had I the inclination to engage in your ridiculous and academically dishonest discussions... Which I don't.

God makes history to reveal truth:

 3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. (Joh 9:3 NKJ)

Its no wonder you can't answer

a)why they ran into the lake;
b)what happened to them after they did;
c)why Jesus agreed to their request


You can't even see the kingdom when its right in front of you.
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« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2010, 02:52:27 PM »

Isa, Alfred doesn't need any more incentive, so stop feeding him.
As I have often said, I don't do it for Alfred.
Seriously, though, what does it benefit us?
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« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2010, 02:57:27 PM »

Isa, Alfred doesn't need any more incentive, so stop feeding him.
As I have often said, I don't do it for Alfred.

I prefer your long eloquent posts filled with icons, they were impressive as I scrolled down to the next post.
Since you scroll past them, what difference is it to you what is in them, as, as I said, I don't do them for you anyway?
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« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2010, 02:58:25 PM »

You can't even see the kingdom when its right in front of you.

This kind of vitriole is unacceptable.
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« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2010, 03:00:18 PM »


The church canonized the word of God in scripture, so we know what it is precisely.


Which 'church' are you talking about?  Which 'word of God' are you talking about?  I'm afraid you're about to step in it now, boy!  Cheesy  
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« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2010, 03:02:18 PM »

perhaps you can answer this one question, re "a position wherein a passage of Scripture has a single, solitary meaning."

So, rather than "make sense of Scripture," you say "make senses of it."

If you asked me where I was at 10am yesterday, and I gave you multiple locations, in effect making senses of your question, did you learn anything useful?

Your analogy is flawed. A person cannot physically be in two places at once. But a story can have meaning on multiple different levels. Even ones that seem contradictory on the surface, at times. Orthodoxy is not a western-rational philosophy of forensic discovery and reconstruction. We definitely have no problem with paradox, as our beliefs are full of it. As I've said all along, the problem is with your expectations, not our answers.

I know someone (a "Jewish Christian" type) who went to Hebrew University in Israel, and studied under some rabbis while he was there, and they told him "Every passage has 70 facets." That means every verse can mean multiple different things simultaneously. Jews recognize this, Orthodox Christians recognize this.

That you believe every passage has one and only one meaning, and you know what it is, shows that you do not understand Eastern Religion, which Christianity is.

Not an analogy, it was an example. People write to say one thing, not multiple things.

A multiple answer to every question, makes truth impossible to know, then one is in a quantum mechanical world where everything is correct simultaneously. You can't live that way.

Here is another example. "My cup runneth over."

If we make senses of this, then we have "My cup leaketh"; "My cup does not run over"; "My cup sloshes over"; "My cup runneth under" etc.

Clearly making senses of "My cup runneth over" is to turn it into babble.

What you gents are confusing, is while a statement means what it says in context, it may imply or figuratively refer to many different things.

"My cup runneth over" means precisely that, but can figuratively be saying "God's blessing has been so great, its more than I can handle =my cup runneth over"

Or "My cup runneth over" to imply the server is being too generous, providing more than what can be consumed.

But even in figurative sayings, the statement itself means only  "my cup runneth over."

Making words mean different things simultaneously is making them babble, no court of law would allow multiple answers be right, for the same question.

Neither can we. Only someone wanting to make scripture teach what it does not say, believes in making senses of scripture, rather than sense of it.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 03:06:58 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2010, 03:03:02 PM »

Sola Scripture is a contradiction of terms. The scriptures of the Bible were selected by the Church through Tradition. So accepting scripture is in itself accepting Tradition.


I'm playing. But no one will play with me Sad

Incorrect, sola scriptura is the logical consequence of solum verbum dei which Catholics, including the Orthodox, believe.

Where we differ is what we define as the deposit of the faith, i.e., what constitutes the  "word of God," while you include tradition, we do not.

Both both of us can find solum verbum dei in scripture:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)

The real contradiction, is in your position. If God wanted your traditions added to the Word of God, He would have said so:

 2 "You shall add to the word which I command you, not take from it, that you may keep the commandments we command you.


Tradition is the Word of God. Scripture is only that part of Tradition which was written down and accepted by the Church as being true. Accepting scripture is accepting Tradition.

He did say so. You only know what the Church wrote you do not know what He said. Only the Church does.

The church canonized the word of God in scripture, so we know what it is precisely.
Actually, the Church didn't canonize the word of God in Scripture so we could know precisely what the word of God is. They canonized the Scriptures to separate these apostolic writings from the many other writings that purported to be apostolic but were not. It was kinda like saying, "This writing we recognize as coming from the hand of the Apostle Paul; that writing is inconsistent with anything the Apostles ever taught us."
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« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2010, 03:05:28 PM »


The church canonized the word of God in scripture, so we know what it is precisely.


Which 'church' are you talking about?

Not the one founded by Alfred Persson, two millenium after Christ.

Quote
Which 'word of God' are you talking about?

It would seem the Orthodox one.

Quote
I'm afraid you're about to step in it now, boy!  Cheesy  
Well, the Fathers warn about going about into slippery places. LOL.
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« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2010, 03:05:45 PM »

perhaps you can answer this one question, re "a position wherein a passage of Scripture has a single, solitary meaning."

So, rather than "make sense of Scripture," you say "make senses of it."

If you asked me where I was at 10am yesterday, and I gave you multiple locations, in effect making senses of your question, did you learn anything useful?

Your analogy is flawed. A person cannot physically be in two places at once. But a story can have meaning on multiple different levels. Even ones that seem contradictory on the surface, at times. Orthodoxy is not a western-rational philosophy of forensic discovery and reconstruction. We definitely have no problem with paradox, as our beliefs are full of it. As I've said all along, the problem is with your expectations, not our answers.

I know someone (a "Jewish Christian" type) who went to Hebrew University in Israel, and studied under some rabbis while he was there, and they told him "Every passage has 70 facets." That means every verse can mean multiple different things simultaneously. Jews recognize this, Orthodox Christians recognize this.

That you believe every passage has one and only one meaning, and you know what it is, shows that you do not understand Eastern Religion, which Christianity is.

Not an analogy, it was an example. People write to say one thing, not multiple things.

A multiple answer to every question, makes truth impossible to know, then one is in a quantum mechanical world where everything is correct simultaneously. You can't live that way.

Here is another example. "My cup runneth over."

If we make senses of this, then we have "My cup leaketh"; "My cup does not run over"; "My cup sloshes over"; "My cup is stands under" etc.

Clearly making senses of "My cup runneth over" is to turn it into babble.

What you gents are confusing, is while a statement means what it says in context, it may imply or figuratively refer to many different things.

"My cup runneth over" is meant precisely that, but it can be figuratively saying "God's blessing has been so great, its like I have more than I can handle =my cup runneth over"

Or "My cup runneth over" to imply the server is being too generous, providing more than what can be consumed.

But even in figurative sayings, the statement itself means only  "my cup runneth over."

Making words mean different things simultaneously is making them babble, no court of law would allow multiple answers be right, for the same question.

Neither can we. Only someone wanting to make scripture teach what it does not say, believes in making senses of scripture, rather than sense of it.


Who's this WE? Me, myself, and I? Huh
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 03:07:02 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2010, 03:12:51 PM »

Isa, Alfred doesn't need any more incentive, so stop feeding him.
As I have often said, I don't do it for Alfred.

I prefer your long eloquent posts filled with icons, they were impressive as I scrolled down to the next post.

I admit it. I laughed.
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« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2010, 03:25:54 PM »

perhaps you can answer this one question, re "a position wherein a passage of Scripture has a single, solitary meaning."

So, rather than "make sense of Scripture," you say "make senses of it."

If you asked me where I was at 10am yesterday, and I gave you multiple locations, in effect making senses of your question, did you learn anything useful?

Your analogy is flawed. A person cannot physically be in two places at once. But a story can have meaning on multiple different levels. Even ones that seem contradictory on the surface, at times. Orthodoxy is not a western-rational philosophy of forensic discovery and reconstruction. We definitely have no problem with paradox, as our beliefs are full of it. As I've said all along, the problem is with your expectations, not our answers.

I know someone (a "Jewish Christian" type) who went to Hebrew University in Israel, and studied under some rabbis while he was there, and they told him "Every passage has 70 facets." That means every verse can mean multiple different things simultaneously. Jews recognize this, Orthodox Christians recognize this.

That you believe every passage has one and only one meaning, and you know what it is, shows that you do not understand Eastern Religion, which Christianity is.

Not an analogy, it was an example. People write to say one thing, not multiple things.

A multiple answer to every question, makes truth impossible to know, then one is in a quantum mechanical world where everything is correct simultaneously. You can't live that way.

Here is another example. "My cup runneth over."

If we make senses of this, then we have "My cup leaketh"; "My cup does not run over"; "My cup sloshes over"; "My cup is stands under" etc.

Clearly making senses of "My cup runneth over" is to turn it into babble.

What you gents are confusing, is while a statement means what it says in context, it may imply or figuratively refer to many different things.

"My cup runneth over" is meant precisely that, but it can be figuratively saying "God's blessing has been so great, its like I have more than I can handle =my cup runneth over"

Or "My cup runneth over" to imply the server is being too generous, providing more than what can be consumed.

But even in figurative sayings, the statement itself means only  "my cup runneth over."

Making words mean different things simultaneously is making them babble, no court of law would allow multiple answers be right, for the same question.

Neither can we. Only someone wanting to make scripture teach what it does not say, believes in making senses of scripture, rather than sense of it.


Who's this WE? Me, myself, and I? Huh

Apparently he has a mouse in his pocket.
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« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2010, 03:28:37 PM »

Isa, Alfred doesn't need any more incentive, so stop feeding him.
As I have often said, I don't do it for Alfred.

I prefer your long eloquent posts filled with icons, they were impressive as I scrolled down to the next post.

I admit it. I laughed.

I laugh at Alfred's posts all the time.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2010, 03:35:38 PM »

Its no wonder you can't answer

a)why they ran into the lake;
b)what happened to them after they did;
c)why Jesus agreed to their request

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30939.msg487734.html#msg487734
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« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2010, 03:40:23 PM »

Isa, Alfred doesn't need any more incentive, so stop feeding him.
As I have often said, I don't do it for Alfred.

I prefer your long eloquent posts filled with icons, they were impressive as I scrolled down to the next post.

I admit it. I laughed.

I laugh at Alfred's posts all the time.

He is so rarely intentionally funny, I felt I have to give him his due.
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« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2010, 03:42:48 PM »

Its no wonder you can't answer

a)why they ran into the lake;
b)what happened to them after they did;
c)why Jesus agreed to their request

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30939.msg487734.html#msg487734

Alfred can't be bothered with such an inconvenient response.
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« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2010, 03:58:23 PM »

I'm just wondering how we can trust an interpretation of this "parable" when the "all-sufficient Sola Scriptura" does not interpret it for us nor does it call it a parable.
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« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2010, 04:02:59 PM »

perhaps you can answer this one question, re "a position wherein a passage of Scripture has a single, solitary meaning."

So, rather than "make sense of Scripture," you say "make senses of it."

If you asked me where I was at 10am yesterday, and I gave you multiple locations, in effect making senses of your question, did you learn anything useful?

Your analogy is flawed. A person cannot physically be in two places at once. But a story can have meaning on multiple different levels. Even ones that seem contradictory on the surface, at times. Orthodoxy is not a western-rational philosophy of forensic discovery and reconstruction. We definitely have no problem with paradox, as our beliefs are full of it. As I've said all along, the problem is with your expectations, not our answers.

I know someone (a "Jewish Christian" type) who went to Hebrew University in Israel, and studied under some rabbis while he was there, and they told him "Every passage has 70 facets." That means every verse can mean multiple different things simultaneously. Jews recognize this, Orthodox Christians recognize this.

That you believe every passage has one and only one meaning, and you know what it is, shows that you do not understand Eastern Religion, which Christianity is.

Not an analogy, it was an example. People write to say one thing, not multiple things.

A multiple answer to every question, makes truth impossible to know, then one is in a quantum mechanical world where everything is correct simultaneously. You can't live that way.

Here is another example. "My cup runneth over."

If we make senses of this, then we have "My cup leaketh"; "My cup does not run over"; "My cup sloshes over"; "My cup runneth under" etc.

Clearly making senses of "My cup runneth over" is to turn it into babble.

What you gents are confusing, is while a statement means what it says in context, it may imply or figuratively refer to many different things.

"My cup runneth over" means precisely that, but can figuratively be saying "God's blessing has been so great, its more than I can handle =my cup runneth over"

Or "My cup runneth over" to imply the server is being too generous, providing more than what can be consumed.

But even in figurative sayings, the statement itself means only  "my cup runneth over."

Making words mean different things simultaneously is making them babble, no court of law would allow multiple answers be right, for the same question.

Neither can we. Only someone wanting to make scripture teach what it does not say, believes in making senses of scripture, rather than sense of it.



The problem is that scripture reviles what is needed for us at the time of reading it. Maybe it's time to look at ourselves first rather than the words, and over time the words will take on a new meaning. angel
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« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2010, 08:48:32 PM »

perhaps you can answer this one question, re "a position wherein a passage of Scripture has a single, solitary meaning."

So, rather than "make sense of Scripture," you say "make senses of it."

If you asked me where I was at 10am yesterday, and I gave you multiple locations, in effect making senses of your question, did you learn anything useful?

Your analogy is flawed. A person cannot physically be in two places at once. But a story can have meaning on multiple different levels. Even ones that seem contradictory on the surface, at times. Orthodoxy is not a western-rational philosophy of forensic discovery and reconstruction. We definitely have no problem with paradox, as our beliefs are full of it. As I've said all along, the problem is with your expectations, not our answers.

I know someone (a "Jewish Christian" type) who went to Hebrew University in Israel, and studied under some rabbis while he was there, and they told him "Every passage has 70 facets." That means every verse can mean multiple different things simultaneously. Jews recognize this, Orthodox Christians recognize this.

That you believe every passage has one and only one meaning, and you know what it is, shows that you do not understand Eastern Religion, which Christianity is.

Not an analogy, it was an example. People write to say one thing, not multiple things.

A multiple answer to every question, makes truth impossible to know, then one is in a quantum mechanical world where everything is correct simultaneously. You can't live that way.

Here is another example. "My cup runneth over."

If we make senses of this, then we have "My cup leaketh"; "My cup does not run over"; "My cup sloshes over"; "My cup runneth under" etc.

Clearly making senses of "My cup runneth over" is to turn it into babble.

What you gents are confusing, is while a statement means what it says in context, it may imply or figuratively refer to many different things.

"My cup runneth over" means precisely that, but can figuratively be saying "God's blessing has been so great, its more than I can handle =my cup runneth over"

Or "My cup runneth over" to imply the server is being too generous, providing more than what can be consumed.

But even in figurative sayings, the statement itself means only  "my cup runneth over."

Making words mean different things simultaneously is making them babble, no court of law would allow multiple answers be right, for the same question.

Neither can we. Only someone wanting to make scripture teach what it does not say, believes in making senses of scripture, rather than sense of it.



The problem is that scripture reviles what is needed for us at the time of reading it. Maybe it's time to look at ourselves first rather than the words, and over time the words will take on a new meaning. angel
Reviles or reveals? To revile something is to speak contemptuously or abusively of it, which I don't think you meant to say in this context.
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« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2010, 09:49:58 PM »

Trolling is not apologetics. This is a game. Roll Eyes

Prediction: Alfred is going to shoot down responses one by one, using badly formatted multicolor Bible verses parsed through his all-holy, immaculate, most blessed and glorious Hermaneutic. Then he will declare victory in this contrived game of his. His ego will be stroked and his insecurities will be driven a little farther off. Rinse and repeat.

[edit] I didn't even submit my post and he already did it. Roll Eyes

Trolling is a fishing term. It's when you drop multiple hooks in the water and drift around waiting for a bite. That's exactly what you're doing constantly.  See why we call you a troll?  

I don't see why you all keep biting.
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« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2010, 10:00:02 PM »

Always find it strange when Christians of what ever stripe call the "Bible" the Word of God or are referred to as people of the "Book", when it seems to me the Word of God is Jesus Christ and Christian are people of the Christ Jesus.

But what do I know?
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« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2010, 10:01:27 PM »

perhaps you can answer this one question, re "a position wherein a passage of Scripture has a single, solitary meaning."

So, rather than "make sense of Scripture," you say "make senses of it."

If you asked me where I was at 10am yesterday, and I gave you multiple locations, in effect making senses of your question, did you learn anything useful?

Your analogy is flawed. A person cannot physically be in two places at once. But a story can have meaning on multiple different levels. Even ones that seem contradictory on the surface, at times. Orthodoxy is not a western-rational philosophy of forensic discovery and reconstruction. We definitely have no problem with paradox, as our beliefs are full of it. As I've said all along, the problem is with your expectations, not our answers.

I know someone (a "Jewish Christian" type) who went to Hebrew University in Israel, and studied under some rabbis while he was there, and they told him "Every passage has 70 facets." That means every verse can mean multiple different things simultaneously. Jews recognize this, Orthodox Christians recognize this.

That you believe every passage has one and only one meaning, and you know what it is, shows that you do not understand Eastern Religion, which Christianity is.

Not an analogy, it was an example. People write to say one thing, not multiple things.

A multiple answer to every question, makes truth impossible to know, then one is in a quantum mechanical world where everything is correct simultaneously. You can't live that way.

Here is another example. "My cup runneth over."

If we make senses of this, then we have "My cup leaketh"; "My cup does not run over"; "My cup sloshes over"; "My cup runneth under" etc.

Clearly making senses of "My cup runneth over" is to turn it into babble.

What you gents are confusing, is while a statement means what it says in context, it may imply or figuratively refer to many different things.

"My cup runneth over" means precisely that, but can figuratively be saying "God's blessing has been so great, its more than I can handle =my cup runneth over"

Or "My cup runneth over" to imply the server is being too generous, providing more than what can be consumed.

But even in figurative sayings, the statement itself means only  "my cup runneth over."

Making words mean different things simultaneously is making them babble, no court of law would allow multiple answers be right, for the same question.

Neither can we. Only someone wanting to make scripture teach what it does not say, believes in making senses of scripture, rather than sense of it.



The problem is that scripture reviles what is needed for us at the time of reading it. Maybe it's time to look at ourselves first rather than the words, and over time the words will take on a new meaning. angel
Reviles or reveals? To revile something is to speak contemptuously or abusively of it, which I don't think you meant to say in this context.
Ah yes. Sorry for the typo. I have bin praying for your new job to keep you busy enough to overlook such trifle details but I guess I haven't prayed hard enough. laugh
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 10:17:06 PM by Demetrios G. » Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2010, 12:13:12 AM »

perhaps you can answer this one question, re "a position wherein a passage of Scripture has a single, solitary meaning."

So, rather than "make sense of Scripture," you say "make senses of it."

If you asked me where I was at 10am yesterday, and I gave you multiple locations, in effect making senses of your question, did you learn anything useful?

Your analogy is flawed. A person cannot physically be in two places at once. But a story can have meaning on multiple different levels. Even ones that seem contradictory on the surface, at times. Orthodoxy is not a western-rational philosophy of forensic discovery and reconstruction. We definitely have no problem with paradox, as our beliefs are full of it. As I've said all along, the problem is with your expectations, not our answers.

I know someone (a "Jewish Christian" type) who went to Hebrew University in Israel, and studied under some rabbis while he was there, and they told him "Every passage has 70 facets." That means every verse can mean multiple different things simultaneously. Jews recognize this, Orthodox Christians recognize this.

That you believe every passage has one and only one meaning, and you know what it is, shows that you do not understand Eastern Religion, which Christianity is.

Not an analogy, it was an example. People write to say one thing, not multiple things.

A multiple answer to every question, makes truth impossible to know, then one is in a quantum mechanical world where everything is correct simultaneously. You can't live that way.

Here is another example. "My cup runneth over."

If we make senses of this, then we have "My cup leaketh"; "My cup does not run over"; "My cup sloshes over"; "My cup runneth under" etc.

Clearly making senses of "My cup runneth over" is to turn it into babble.

What you gents are confusing, is while a statement means what it says in context, it may imply or figuratively refer to many different things.

"My cup runneth over" means precisely that, but can figuratively be saying "God's blessing has been so great, its more than I can handle =my cup runneth over"

Or "My cup runneth over" to imply the server is being too generous, providing more than what can be consumed.

But even in figurative sayings, the statement itself means only  "my cup runneth over."

Making words mean different things simultaneously is making them babble, no court of law would allow multiple answers be right, for the same question.

Neither can we. Only someone wanting to make scripture teach what it does not say, believes in making senses of scripture, rather than sense of it.



The problem is that scripture reviles what is needed for us at the time of reading it. Maybe it's time to look at ourselves first rather than the words, and over time the words will take on a new meaning. angel
Reviles or reveals? To revile something is to speak contemptuously or abusively of it, which I don't think you meant to say in this context.
Ah yes. Sorry for the typo. I have bin praying for your new job to keep you busy enough to overlook such trifle details but I guess I haven't prayed hard enough. laugh
I've been sick the last couple of days. Tongue With a proper medical diagnosis (mild case of pluerisy) and the means to fight back for my good health (a week's supply of antibiotics to kill the infection and some ibuprofen to manage the pain), I should be back to work tomorrow.

Of course, I do have to return home some time, and I am a stickler for such "minor" details, especially when they're not so minor details as the difference between "revile" and "reveal".
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 12:21:40 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2010, 01:46:01 AM »

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
 (Mat 8:28-32 KJV)

The drowning of the pigs does not seem to be part of the deal. Why did the swine run into the sea, and perish?

If tradition can reveal such mystery, then its inspired by God. An analogy:

 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.[/i]
 (Pro 1:22-23 KJV)


If tradition cannot answer such questions, but a diligent Bible student via sound hermeneutic principles and sola scriptura can, then sola scriptura is clearly the certified "Way of God to understand His Scripture."

So I will give you folks a chance to reveal this mystery using whatever you can, plus your Tradition:

Why did the swine rush into the sea, and perish?



26 But He said to them, "Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?" Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
 27 So the men marveled, saying, "Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"
 28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.
 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
 30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine."
 32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water.
 33 Then those who kept them fled; and they went away into the city and told everything, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men.
 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region.
 (Mat 8:26-34 NKJ)

This is revelation Jesus is God, nothing less. With a word He rebukes the wind and sea, and these obey Him (27). Verse 28 continues the revelation, the demoniacs go out to meet Jesus thinking to victimize Him, but suddenly in terror realize He the LORD Almighty, not a helpless victim.  

They ask:: "Have you come to torment us before the time."

Yes, that is precisely what Jesus will do.

Thinking they can bargain their escape, they beg to trade the swine for the men.

Jesus seems to agree, He says "Go!"

To their horror they are captured in swine flesh, and driven headlong into the sea, prefiguring what will occur in the Last Day when these are clothed in hideous flesh, and hurled headlong into the Lake of Fire, where they will weep and gnash their teeth like their human brethren.

God reigns in Hell, not any devil. These are impotent in death, just like vile humanity raised up in the very bodies they misused for sin, that now communicate the terrible wrath of God, in the form of physical pain like unto liquid fire that cannot be quenched, like unto a corrupting worm that dieth not.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth being indicative of great physical pain.


Tartaroo is where these went, to be reserved for judgment.


Just as men pay for misusing God's vessel for sin, and therefore suffer corruption of the flesh, so also will fallen angels, be trapped in swine flesh causing everlasting shame, which will communicate tribulation and anguish upon every devil.


***

The Exegesis:

They went thinking they had another helpless victim.

28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him (ὑπήντησαν) two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.


To their Horror, it was the LORD, and in their terror they exclaim what is the most likely purpose of Jesus:

And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" (Mat 8:29 NKJ)


They spy swine in the distance and hope to extricate themselves via a unholy bargain:

30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine."
 (Mat 8:30-31 NKJ)

Thinking  Jesus agreed, they rush out into the swine, and are immediately rendered powerless, like the wind and sea, Jesus commands they hurl themselves into the Lake, prefiguring what He will do in the Last Day:

32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water. (Mat 8:32 NKJ)

This explains why Judgment Day seems broken up into two parts:

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:10-1 NKJ)

Those destined for life are judged in  verses 11-12, those not written in the book of life in verses 13f. The reason the Sea is mentioned with Death and Hades is because it contains the realm of Tartarus, which in Greek mythology, was the lowest abyss beneath the earth where waters originate, beneath "Oceanus."

These spirits reserved for judgment were separated from the human dead in "Death and Hades,"

NKJ  2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (2Pe 2:4 NKJ)

NKJ  Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

This is where the hybrid human/angel souls were imprisoned when they died in the flood:

NKJ  Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
 (Gen 6:1-2 NKJ)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 (1Pe 3:18-20 NKJ)

The scales of Justice would be unbalanced if these fallen angels didn't suffer for their corporeal sins just as men do, in a divine reversal where the bodies which formerly communicated sinful pleasure, now communicate the terrible wrath of God.

43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
 44 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
 (Mar 9:43-44 NKJ)


As your tradition was unable to reveal these things, its clear its of no benefit when learning the doctrines of God. The Holy Spirit filled believer requires an objective test of all doctrine, and that is what the Bible is written to do. Anything that contradicts it, cannot be from God.


Sola Scriptura is not Solo Scriptura, the believer takes in counsel from all the teachers God in His grace has provided the church. He listens to discover every possible interpretation, then decides which conforms best to scripture. As truth is conformity with fact, any exegesis that conforms to the syntax and grammar of Scripture is the truth.

Jesus Himself did the same:

 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.
 (Luk 2:46-47 NKJ)


It is written to all who follow the traditions of men rather than the word of God:

11 Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled-- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment. (Isa 50:11 NKJ)



20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)


 28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
 29 "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
 (Jer 23:28-29 NKJ)

« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:16:22 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2010, 02:21:06 AM »

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
 (Mat 8:28-32 KJV)

The drowning of the pigs does not seem to be part of the deal. Why did the swine run into the sea, and perish?

If tradition can reveal such mystery, then its inspired by God. An analogy:

 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.[/i]
 (Pro 1:22-23 KJV)


If tradition cannot answer such questions, but a diligent Bible student via sound hermeneutic principles and sola scriptura can, then sola scriptura is clearly the certified "Way of God to understand His Scripture."

So I will give you folks a chance to reveal this mystery using whatever you can, plus your Tradition:

Why did the swine rush into the sea, and perish?



26 But He said to them, "Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?" Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
 27 So the men marveled, saying, "Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"
 28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.
 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
 30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine."
 32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water.
 33 Then those who kept them fled; and they went away into the city and told everything, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men.
 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region.
 (Mat 8:26-34 NKJ)

This is revelation Jesus is God, nothing less. With a word He rebukes the wind and sea, and these obey Him (27). Verse 28 continues the revelation, the demoniacs go out to meet Jesus thinking to victimize Him, but suddenly in terror realize He the LORD Almighty, not a helpless victim.  

They ask:: "Have you come to torment us before the time."

Yes, that is precisely what Jesus will do.

Thinking they can bargain their escape, they beg to trade the swine for the men.

Jesus seems to agree, He says "Go!"

To their horror they are captured in swine flesh, and driven headlong into the sea, prefiguring what will occur in the Last Day when these are clothed in hideous flesh, and hurled headlong into the Lake of Fire, where they will weep and gnash their teeth like their human brethren.

God reigns in Hell, not any devil. These are impotent in death, just like vile humanity raised up in the very bodies they misused for sin, that now communicate the terrible wrath of God, in the form of physical pain like unto liquid fire that cannot be quenched, like unto a corrupting worm that dieth not.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth being indicative of great physical pain.


Tartaroo is where these went, to be reserved for judgment.


Just as men pay for misusing God's vessel for sin, and therefore suffer corruption of the flesh, so also will fallen angels, be trapped in swine flesh causing everlasting shame, which will communicate tribulation and anguish upon every devil.


***

The Exegesis:

They went thinking they had another helpless victim.

28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him (ὑπήντησαν) two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.


To their Horror, it was the LORD, and in their terror they exclaim what is the most likely purpose of Jesus:

And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" (Mat 8:29 NKJ)


They spy swine in the distance and hope to extricate themselves via a unholy bargain:

30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine."
 (Mat 8:30-31 NKJ)

Thinking  Jesus agreed, they rush out into the swine, and are immediately rendered powerless, like the wind and sea, Jesus commands they hurl themselves into the Lake, prefiguring what He will do in the Last Day:

32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water. (Mat 8:32 NKJ)

This explains why Judgment Day seems broken up into two parts:

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:10-1 NKJ)

Those destined for life are judged in  verses 11-12, those not written in the book of life in verses 13f. The reason the Sea is mentioned with Death and Hades is because it contains the realm of Tartarus, which in Greek mythology, was the lowest abyss beneath the earth where waters originate, beneath "Oceanus."

These spirits reserved for judgment were separated from the human dead in "Death and Hades,"

NKJ  2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (2Pe 2:4 NKJ)

NKJ  Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

This is where the hybrid human/angel souls were imprisoned when they died in the flood:

NKJ  Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
 (Gen 6:1-2 NKJ)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 (1Pe 3:18-20 NKJ)

The scales of Justice would be unbalanced if these fallen angels didn't suffer for their corporeal sins just as men do, in a divine reversal where the bodies which formerly communicated sinful pleasure, now communicate the terrible wrath of God.

43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
 44 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
 (Mar 9:43-44 NKJ)


As your tradition was unable to reveal these things, its clear its of no benefit when learning the doctrines of God. The Holy Spirit filled believer requires an objective test of all doctrine, and that is what the Bible is written to do. Anything that contradicts it, cannot be from God.


It is written:

11 Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled-- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment. (Isa 50:11 NKJ)



20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)


 28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
 29 "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
 (Jer 23:28-29 NKJ)


Yup. Just as I expected. Another one of your games where you stack the deck to make sure you always win. My cousin once did that in a game of Mille Bornes by secretly dealing himself all the safety cards. Grandma caught wind of that stunt and gave him a whuppin' for cheating. The exegesis of that story: Cheating shows the world nothing except that you're a cheater.
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Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2010, 02:31:54 AM »

I honestly don't understand this whole thread.
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« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2010, 02:39:39 AM »

I honestly don't understand this whole thread.

As I said before... Wink

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Primitive Orthodox


« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2010, 02:45:27 AM »

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
 (Mat 8:28-32 KJV)

The drowning of the pigs does not seem to be part of the deal. Why did the swine run into the sea, and perish?

If tradition can reveal such mystery, then its inspired by God. An analogy:

 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.[/i]
 (Pro 1:22-23 KJV)


If tradition cannot answer such questions, but a diligent Bible student via sound hermeneutic principles and sola scriptura can, then sola scriptura is clearly the certified "Way of God to understand His Scripture."

So I will give you folks a chance to reveal this mystery using whatever you can, plus your Tradition:

Why did the swine rush into the sea, and perish?



28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
 (Mat 8:28-32 KJV)

The drowning of the pigs does not seem to be part of the deal. Why did the swine run into the sea, and perish?

If tradition can reveal such mystery, then its inspired by God. An analogy:

 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.[/i]
 (Pro 1:22-23 KJV)


If tradition cannot answer such questions, but a diligent Bible student via sound hermeneutic principles and sola scriptura can, then sola scriptura is clearly the certified "Way of God to understand His Scripture."

So I will give you folks a chance to reveal this mystery using whatever you can, plus your Tradition:

Why did the swine rush into the sea, and perish?



26 But He said to them, "Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?" Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
 27 So the men marveled, saying, "Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"
 28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.
 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
 30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine."
 32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water.
 33 Then those who kept them fled; and they went away into the city and told everything, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men.
 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region.
 (Mat 8:26-34 NKJ)

This is revelation Jesus is God, nothing less. With a word He rebukes the wind and sea, and these obey Him (27). Verse 28 continues the revelation, the demoniacs go out to meet Jesus thinking to victimize Him, but suddenly in terror realize He the LORD Almighty, not a helpless victim. 

They ask:: "Have you come to torment us before the time."

Yes, that is precisely what Jesus will do.

Thinking they can bargain their escape, they beg to trade the swine for the men.

Jesus seems to agree, He says "Go!"

To their horror they are captured in swine flesh, and driven headlong into the sea, prefiguring what will occur in the Last Day when these are clothed in hideous flesh, and hurled headlong into the Lake of Fire, where they will weep and gnash their teeth like their human brethren.

God reigns in Hell, not any devil. These are impotent in death, just like vile humanity raised up in the very bodies they misused for sin, that now communicate the terrible wrath of God, in the form of physical pain like unto liquid fire that cannot be quenched, like unto a corrupting worm that dieth not.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth being indicative of great physical pain.


Tartaroo is where these went, to be reserved for judgment.


Just as men pay for misusing God's vessel for sin, and therefore suffer corruption of the flesh, so also will fallen angels, be trapped in swine flesh causing everlasting shame, which will communicate tribulation and anguish upon every devil.


***

The Exegesis:

They went thinking they had another helpless victim.

28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him (ὑπήντησαν) two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.


To their Horror, it was the LORD, and in their terror they exclaim what is the most likely purpose of Jesus:

And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" (Mat 8:29 NKJ)


They spy swine in the distance and hope to extricate themselves via a unholy bargain:

30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine."
 (Mat 8:30-31 NKJ)

Thinking  Jesus agreed, they rush out into the swine, and are immediately rendered powerless, like the wind and sea, Jesus commands they hurl themselves into the Lake, prefiguring what He will do in the Last Day:

32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water. (Mat 8:32 NKJ)

This explains why Judgment Day seems broken up into two parts:

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:10-1 NKJ)

Those destined for life are judged in  verses 11-12, those not written in the book of life in verses 13f. The reason the Sea is mentioned with Death and Hades is because it contains the realm of Tartarus, which in Greek mythology, was the lowest abyss beneath the earth where waters originate, beneath "Oceanus."

These spirits reserved for judgment were separated from the human dead in "Death and Hades,"

NKJ  2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (2Pe 2:4 NKJ)

NKJ  Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

This is where the hybrid human/angel souls were imprisoned when they died in the flood:

NKJ  Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
 (Gen 6:1-2 NKJ)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 (1Pe 3:18-20 NKJ)

The scales of Justice would be unbalanced if these fallen angels didn't suffer for their corporeal sins just as men do, in a divine reversal where the bodies which formerly communicated sinful pleasure, now communicate the terrible wrath of God.

43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
 44 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
 (Mar 9:43-44 NKJ)


As your tradition was unable to reveal these things, its clear its of no benefit when learning the doctrines of God. The Holy Spirit filled believer requires an objective test of all doctrine, and that is what the Bible is written to do. Anything that contradicts it, cannot be from God.


Sola Scriptura is not Solo Scriptura, the believer takes in counsel from all the teachers God in His grace has provided the church. He listens to discover every possible interpretation, then decides which conforms best to scripture. As truth is conformity with fact, any exegesis that conforms to the syntax and grammar of Scripture is the truth.

Jesus Himself did the same:

 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.
 (Luk 2:46-47 NKJ)


It is written to all who follow the traditions of men rather than the word of God:

11 Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled-- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment. (Isa 50:11 NKJ)



20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)


 28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
 29 "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
 (Jer 23:28-29 NKJ)

Yup. Just as I expected. Another one of your games where you stack the deck to make sure you always win. My cousin once did that in a game of Mille Bornes by secretly dealing himself all the safety cards. Grandma caught wind of that stunt and gave him a whuppin' for cheating. The exegesis of that story: Cheating shows the world nothing except that you're a cheater.

How did I cheat?

Explain please.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:52:27 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
ialmisry
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« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2010, 02:48:52 AM »

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
 (Mat 8:28-32 KJV)

The drowning of the pigs does not seem to be part of the deal. Why did the swine run into the sea, and perish?

If tradition can reveal such mystery, then its inspired by God. An analogy:

 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.[/i]
 (Pro 1:22-23 KJV)


If tradition cannot answer such questions, but a diligent Bible student via sound hermeneutic principles and sola scriptura can, then sola scriptura is clearly the certified "Way of God to understand His Scripture."

So I will give you folks a chance to reveal this mystery using whatever you can, plus your Tradition:

Why did the swine rush into the sea, and perish?



26 But He said to them, "Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?" Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
 27 So the men marveled, saying, "Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"
 28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.
 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
 30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine."
 32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water.
 33 Then those who kept them fled; and they went away into the city and told everything, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men.
 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region.
 (Mat 8:26-34 NKJ)

This is revelation Jesus is God, nothing less. With a word He rebukes the wind and sea, and these obey Him (27). Verse 28 continues the revelation, the demoniacs go out to meet Jesus thinking to victimize Him, but suddenly in terror realize He the LORD Almighty, not a helpless victim.  

They ask:: "Have you come to torment us before the time."

Yes, that is precisely what Jesus will do.

Thinking they can bargain their escape, they beg to trade the swine for the men.

Jesus seems to agree, He says "Go!"

To their horror they are captured in swine flesh, and driven headlong into the sea, prefiguring what will occur in the Last Day when these are clothed in hideous flesh, and hurled headlong into the Lake of Fire, where they will weep and gnash their teeth like their human brethren.

God reigns in Hell, not any devil. These are impotent in death, just like vile humanity raised up in the very bodies they misused for sin, that now communicate the terrible wrath of God, in the form of physical pain like unto liquid fire that cannot be quenched, like unto a corrupting worm that dieth not.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth being indicative of great physical pain.


Tartaroo is where these went, to be reserved for judgment.

Tartaroo? Isn't that the planet that Luke Skywalker is from?

Quote
Just as men pay for misusing God's vessel for sin, and therefore suffer corruption of the flesh, so also will fallen angels, be trapped in swine flesh causing everlasting shame, which will communicate tribulation and anguish upon every devil.


***

The Exegesis:

They went thinking they had another helpless victim.

28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him (ὑπήντησαν) two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.


To their Horror, it was the LORD, and in their terror they exclaim what is the most likely purpose of Jesus:

And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" (Mat 8:29 NKJ)


They spy swine in the distance and hope to extricate themselves via a unholy bargain:

30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine."
 (Mat 8:30-31 NKJ)

Thinking  Jesus agreed, they rush out into the swine, and are immediately rendered powerless, like the wind and sea, Jesus commands they hurl themselves into the Lake, prefiguring what He will do in the Last Day:

32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water. (Mat 8:32 NKJ)

This explains why Judgment Day seems broken up into two parts:

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:10-1 NKJ)

Those destined for life are judged in  verses 11-12, those not written in the book of life in verses 13f. The reason the Sea is mentioned with Death and Hades is because it contains the realm of Tartarus, which in Greek mythology, was the lowest abyss beneath the earth where waters originate, beneath "Oceanus."

These spirits reserved for judgment were separated from the human dead in "Death and Hades,"

NKJ  2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (2Pe 2:4 NKJ)

NKJ  Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

This is where the hybrid human/angel souls were imprisoned when they died in the flood:

Since angels have no bodies, how could they mate?  Indeed, Christ Himself states angels are not given in marriage.

Quote
NKJ  Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
 (Gen 6:1-2 NKJ)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 (1Pe 3:18-20 NKJ)

The scales of Justice would be unbalanced if these fallen angels didn't suffer for their corporeal sins just as men do, in a divine reversal where the bodies which formerly communicated sinful pleasure, now communicate the terrible wrath of God.

43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
 44 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
 (Mar 9:43-44 NKJ)


As your tradition was unable to reveal these things, its clear its of no benefit when learning the doctrines of God. The Holy Spirit filled believer requires an objective test of all doctrine, and that is what the Bible is written to do. Anything that contradicts it, cannot be from God.

As Tuesday's child points out, you are not often intentionally funny, but unintentionally you always are.

Reminds me of skit where a guy writes an "X" on a map, and thereby expects to find a treasure there, unaware that you first have to find the treasure, then mark its spot on a map.

Quote
Sola Scriptura is not Solo Scriptura, the believer takes in counsel from all the teachers God in His grace has provided the church. He listens to discover every possible interpretation,

Then why don't you try that for a change?

Quote
then decides which conforms best to scripture.


You seem to have studied under Dr. Seuss for your eisogesis: if you want to know the truth, make it up.

Quote
As truth is conformity with fact, any exegesis that conforms to the syntax and grammar of Scripture is the truth.

Unfortunatlely it's Greek to you.

Quote
Jesus Himself did the same:

 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.
 (Luk 2:46-47 NKJ)

LOL. Its not your "understanding" that astonishes us. More the lack thereof.


Quote
It is written to all who follow the traditions of men rather than the word of God:

11 Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled-- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment. (Isa 50:11 NKJ)

Thus is the fate of those who fall prey to the traditions of Alfred Persson and embrace Perssonism.


Quote
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)


 28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
 29 "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
 (Jer 23:28-29 NKJ)

Do you aim for incoherence?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:52:20 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2010, 02:54:03 AM »

I honestly don't understand this whole thread.

As I said before... Wink



Yes, he has been weighed in the scales and found wanting.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2010, 05:18:16 AM »

Wow, Sola Scriptura must be so superior that Alfred did not even find himself dignified enough to refute what was given to him from the Tradition POV! Surely this new way of thinking is far superior since it need not refute claims that have been around for almost 2,000 years!

Also, did anybody note the time that Alfred decided to post his "translation"? Did he give us the full amount of time he promised? I am honestly asking since I do not know how this time for a post thing works...

:Edit:
I noted the time I posted was aprox 0518 EST where as Alfred posted aprox 0145 EST... perhaps I am reading that wrong but it would appear that it was not 0001 PST
:Edit:
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 05:20:25 AM by dcommini » Logged

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