Author Topic: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome  (Read 4761 times)

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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2010, 09:45:06 AM »
Your assumptions appear to be:

-The Papacy changed in it's power (obviously)
-the relationship between the bishops and state powers was different between the east and west, resulting in higher church authority instead of an eastern model
-eastern influence was completely undesirable

I think the second point is the biggest stretch. The west had it's own share of state influence in the church, as like the east, which can be seen in the local state heads having say in the new Pope (similar to the east's new patriarch selection) as well as the Anglican split (brought by a political struggle between the Pope, English and French [divorce is simplistic and innacuarate])   

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2010, 09:56:08 AM »

As lightening is violent and destructive, so heresies are violent and destructive and since they struck hardest from the east, so hard that they spread out into the west, then yes, the Son of Man may indeed be prompted to come into the west and draw the east back into the Body of Christ.  That seems entirely plausible to me.


It seems far from plausible to me and is a resoundingly blinkered view of history. 

You ignore the enormous heresies which rent, and still rend, the Church of Rome, beginning in the 15th and 16 centuries.   Entire countries and millions of people were torn from the bosom of the Roman Catholic Church.    The heresies caused death and violent destruction from both sides and thousands of heretics were sent to their deaths by torture and fire.

To this day these heresies continue in existence and are thriving.  They have spread out from Western Europe and taken root in the countries of the New World so that in almost every country they still inflict harm upon the Roman Catholic Church.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2010, 10:07:28 AM »
Your assumptions appear to be:

-The Papacy changed in it's power (obviously)
-the relationship between the bishops and state powers was different between the east and west, resulting in higher church authority instead of an eastern model
-eastern influence was completely undesirable

I think the second point is the biggest stretch. The west had it's own share of state influence in the church, as like the east, which can be seen in the local state heads having say in the new Pope (similar to the east's new patriarch selection) as well as the Anglican split (brought by a political struggle between the Pope, English and French [divorce is simplistic and innacuarate])   
You'll have to add the Swedish split (the Swedish state church (which includes the Lutheran state church of Finland, and included the Lutheran churches of Estonia, Latvia, and Pomerania and the British colonies in America, and might have become the state church of Poland-Lithuania), which is pretty comparable to the Anglicans: it also claims Apostolic succession, and kept high church forms.
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2010, 10:10:06 AM »

As lightening is violent and destructive, so heresies are violent and destructive and since they struck hardest from the east, so hard that they spread out into the west, then yes, the Son of Man may indeed be prompted to come into the west and draw the east back into the Body of Christ.  That seems entirely plausible to me.


It seems far from plausible to me and is a resoundingly blinkered view of history. 

You ignore the enormous heresies which rent, and still rend, the Church of Rome, beginning in the 15th and 16 centuries.   Entire countries and millions of people were torn from the bosom of the Roman Catholic Church.    The heresies caused death and violent destruction from both sides and thousands of heretics were sent to their deaths by torture and fire.

To this day these heresies continue in existence and are thriving.  They have spread out from Western Europe and taken root in the countries of the New World so that in almost every country they still inflict harm upon the Roman Catholic Church.
16th century heresies? Like sale of indulgences? The Church recognized these localized heresies in events like the counter-reformation. Though Luther disliked more than that, in fact he even disliked books in the New Testament and wanted them removed with the ones from the Old Testament.
Even the Ecumenical Patriarch saw is ideas as foolish when Luther tried to find mental support by contacting the Orthodox.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 10:11:22 AM by Azurestone »

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2010, 10:18:24 AM »

As lightening is violent and destructive, so heresies are violent and destructive and since they struck hardest from the east, so hard that they spread out into the west, then yes, the Son of Man may indeed be prompted to come into the west and draw the east back into the Body of Christ.  That seems entirely plausible to me.


It seems far from plausible to me and is a resoundingly blinkered view of history. 

You ignore the enormous heresies which rent, and still rend, the Church of Rome, beginning in the 15th and 16 centuries.   Entire countries and millions of people were torn from the bosom of the Roman Catholic Church.    The heresies caused death and violent destruction from both sides and thousands of heretics were sent to their deaths by torture and fire.

To this day these heresies continue in existence and are thriving.  They have spread out from Western Europe and taken root in the countries of the New World so that in almost every country they still inflict harm upon the Roman Catholic Church.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Right!  The schism was caused in part by the sinful abuses of power in the Catholic Church but the actual heresies were those that had already been imported from the east.  Your Emperor/Popes cleaned house periodically and send the rats and bed bugs west...And as the ease and comfort of the east flowed into the ascetic veins of the western clergy...all hell broke loose.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I love history, don't you?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2010, 10:36:52 AM »

As lightening is violent and destructive, so heresies are violent and destructive and since they struck hardest from the east, so hard that they spread out into the west, then yes, the Son of Man may indeed be prompted to come into the west and draw the east back into the Body of Christ.  That seems entirely plausible to me.


It seems far from plausible to me and is a resoundingly blinkered view of history. 

You ignore the enormous heresies which rent, and still rend, the Church of Rome, beginning in the 15th and 16 centuries.   Entire countries and millions of people were torn from the bosom of the Roman Catholic Church.    The heresies caused death and violent destruction from both sides and thousands of heretics were sent to their deaths by torture and fire.

To this day these heresies continue in existence and are thriving.  They have spread out from Western Europe and taken root in the countries of the New World so that in almost every country they still inflict harm upon the Roman Catholic Church.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Right!  The schism was caused in part by the sinful abuses of power in the Catholic Church but the actual heresies were those that had already been imported from the east.
Neither Toledo nor Southern Italy are in the East. The former, birthplace of the filioque, is in the Far West.

Quote
  Your Emperor/Popes cleaned house periodically and send the rats and bed bugs west

Yes, SS. Peter and Paul, Mark, Clement, Irenaeus, Constantine....


Quote
...And as the ease and comfort of the east flowed into the ascetic veins of the western clergy...all hell broke loose.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Odd how we don't have that problem out East.

Quote
I love history
Then you should try it some time.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2010, 10:49:26 AM »

As lightening is violent and destructive, so heresies are violent and destructive and since they struck hardest from the east, so hard that they spread out into the west, then yes, the Son of Man may indeed be prompted to come into the west and draw the east back into the Body of Christ.  That seems entirely plausible to me.


It seems far from plausible to me and is a resoundingly blinkered view of history. 

You ignore the enormous heresies which rent, and still rend, the Church of Rome, beginning in the 15th and 16 centuries.   Entire countries and millions of people were torn from the bosom of the Roman Catholic Church.    The heresies caused death and violent destruction from both sides and thousands of heretics were sent to their deaths by torture and fire.

To this day these heresies continue in existence and are thriving.  They have spread out from Western Europe and taken root in the countries of the New World so that in almost every country they still inflict harm upon the Roman Catholic Church.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Right!  The schism was caused in part by the sinful abuses of power in the Catholic Church but the actual heresies were those that had already been imported from the east.
Neither Toledo nor Southern Italy are in the East. The former, birthplace of the filioque, is in the Far West.

Quote
  Your Emperor/Popes cleaned house periodically and send the rats and bed bugs west

Yes, SS. Peter and Paul, Mark, Clement, Irenaeus, Constantine....


Quote
...And as the ease and comfort of the east flowed into the ascetic veins of the western clergy...all hell broke loose.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Odd how we don't have that problem out East.

Quote
I love history
Then you should try it some time.

I have the certificates and as others have pointed out on this Forum, your own versions of history, are found wanting. 

I expect that is why you depend so heavily on the cut and paste method of dialogue.

M.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2010, 11:09:24 AM »

As lightening is violent and destructive, so heresies are violent and destructive and since they struck hardest from the east, so hard that they spread out into the west, then yes, the Son of Man may indeed be prompted to come into the west and draw the east back into the Body of Christ.  That seems entirely plausible to me.


It seems far from plausible to me and is a resoundingly blinkered view of history. 

You ignore the enormous heresies which rent, and still rend, the Church of Rome, beginning in the 15th and 16 centuries.   Entire countries and millions of people were torn from the bosom of the Roman Catholic Church.    The heresies caused death and violent destruction from both sides and thousands of heretics were sent to their deaths by torture and fire.

To this day these heresies continue in existence and are thriving.  They have spread out from Western Europe and taken root in the countries of the New World so that in almost every country they still inflict harm upon the Roman Catholic Church.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Right!  The schism was caused in part by the sinful abuses of power in the Catholic Church but the actual heresies were those that had already been imported from the east.
Neither Toledo nor Southern Italy are in the East. The former, birthplace of the filioque, is in the Far West.

Quote
  Your Emperor/Popes cleaned house periodically and send the rats and bed bugs west

Yes, SS. Peter and Paul, Mark, Clement, Irenaeus, Constantine....


Quote
...And as the ease and comfort of the east flowed into the ascetic veins of the western clergy...all hell broke loose.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Odd how we don't have that problem out East.

Quote
I love history
Then you should try it some time.

I have the certificates and as others have pointed out on this Forum, your own versions of history, are found wanting.
Those who use false scales because I won't use the weights of their own version of history, but rather the weight of the evidence, don't count.

Quote
I expect that is why you depend so heavily on the cut and paste method of dialogue.
as opposed to making up as you go along, with assertion not documentation.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2010, 11:14:35 AM »
as opposed to making up as you go along, with assertion not documentation.

That does indeed describe most of your cutting and pasting, yes.  We are agreed there.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2010, 11:17:14 AM »
as opposed to making up as you go along, with assertion not documentation.

That does indeed describe most of your cutting and pasting, yes.  We are agreed there.
Except for the article on the IC by Fr. Lev (a convert from the Vatican), I don't recall a single thing you have posted supported by anything but your own assertions.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2010, 11:19:42 AM »
as opposed to making up as you go along, with assertion not documentation.

That does indeed describe most of your cutting and pasting, yes.  We are agreed there.
Except for the article on the IC by Fr. Lev (a convert from the Vatican), I don't recall a single thing you have posted supported by anything but your own assertions.

By the teaching of my own Church.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2010, 11:23:27 AM »

as opposed to making up as you go along, with assertion not documentation.

Ialmisry has a point, Mary.  Most often you decline to provide documentation when asked and seem upset when we have the temerity to ask for it.

Btw, have none of you over there noticed that we have our future queen?  Prince William has chosen a bride.   Half our TV programmes have been displaced to being us live news and commentary via the BBC.


Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2010, 11:35:41 AM »

as opposed to making up as you go along, with assertion not documentation.

Ialmisry has a point, Mary.  Most often you decline to provide documentation when asked and seem upset when we have the temerity to ask for it.

I am free to choose how I waste my time Father  :laugh:

When what I say is slammed back at me so regularly, I am less inclined to spend more time on it than I do.

But I certainly have presented Orthodox liturgical sources for the claims that I make of the virgin Theotokos.  And there are others here who agree with me, and they are Orthodox.

Have a good'n!!  See you later.


Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2010, 11:58:18 AM »

I am free to choose how I waste my time Father  :laugh:


You are, but you are not free to waste ours and that is what you do when we read your posts and you have not been bothered to provide documentation.   You are wasting our time and saying to us - these things are true because I, Mary Lanser, am saying them to you.  Accept them!  Believe them!  
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 11:59:16 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2010, 12:00:50 PM »

as opposed to making up as you go along, with assertion not documentation.

Ialmisry has a point, Mary.  Most often you decline to provide documentation when asked and seem upset when we have the temerity to ask for it.

I am free to choose how I waste my time Father  :laugh:
just don't waste ours.

Quote
When what I say is slammed back at me so regularly, I am less inclined to spend more time on it than I do.
because you can't do it.

Quote
But I certainly have presented Orthodox liturgical sources for the claims that I make of the virgin Theotokos.  And there are others here who agree with me, and they are Orthodox.
Like Fr. Lev? Obviously he brought some baggage in, but he's Orthodox because you say so? Oh, I forgot your "more conservative Orthodox clergy" who remain nameless.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Schultz

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Re: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2010, 12:30:44 PM »


Let's keep this thread focused on Pope Leo and the Future Apostasy of Rome.  If you want to discuss Prince William and his new fiancee, please do so in the thread started in the Non-Religious Topics section.  Thank you!

-Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 12:38:15 PM by Schultz »
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