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Author Topic: Pope Leo on the Future Apostasy of Rome  (Read 4541 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 31, 2010, 04:32:22 PM »

Pope Leo XIII’s Prayer to St. Michael – a Prophecy about the Future Apostasy in Rome

http://mostholyfamilymonastery.com/2_LeoXIII.pdf

Dire words from Pontiff about the apostasy of Rome which he included in the original Prayer to the Archangel Michael.

How is this viewed by Catholics?
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2010, 04:52:09 PM »

Very interesting, especially the insinuations about Pope Paul VI's authorization of liturgical changes, and the comment in the caption of the Picture of the Pope at Assisi with the Patriarch of Constantinople--this last is certainly fodder for Orthodox anti-Ecumenists.
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2010, 05:48:45 PM »

I always loved this prayer. My sons and I used to say it in Arabic when they were little.
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2010, 09:39:27 PM »

That link is to a sedevacantist group...

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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2010, 10:19:45 PM »

I always loved this prayer. My sons and I used to say it in Arabic when they were little.

Me, too.  I say this every day as part of my prayers to the saints for their intercessions (only I say it in English Smiley )
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2010, 10:22:12 PM »

That link is to a sedevacantist group...



Indeed, it is, but they do cite a Benzinger Bros. publication.  If the citation is quoted correctly, how would you respond? 
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2010, 11:33:07 PM »

I have no quarrel with the publisher nor the citation...
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2010, 11:34:01 PM »

That link is to a sedevacantist group...



Indeed it is but they are simply relaying the prayer composed by the Supreme Pontiff.   The site itself no more invalidates the prayer than it would invalidate an "Our Father" or "Hail Mary."

I am interested how Catholics view the papal teaching on the possibility that Rome will fall into apostasy.
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 12:40:05 AM »

That link is to a sedevacantist group...



Indeed it is but they are simply relaying the prayer composed by the Supreme Pontiff.   The site itself no more invalidates the prayer than it would invalidate an "Our Father" or "Hail Mary."

I am interested how Catholics view the papal teaching on the possibility that Rome will fall into apostasy.

Post the question over at Fish Eaters and Catholic Answers...one group will go into a frenzy and the other will say huh ?
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2010, 11:53:38 AM »

There have been many men in history who have claimed that such and such an episcopal see shall fall into heresy.
I remember but cannot cite any sources about various movements in Russia which claimed the Orthodox hierarchy to have fallen into heresy. There are always people which claim that they see more of the picture than normal people do but in my humble opinion it is either their vain pride or occultic influences. Take into consideration, that during the reign of Leo XIII, occultic spiritism was very strong in Europe. It is said that there were more people at spiritist seances than at church in Paris!
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2010, 01:34:47 AM »

That link is to a sedevacantist group...



Indeed it is but they are simply relaying the prayer composed by the Supreme Pontiff.   The site itself no more invalidates the prayer than it would invalidate an "Our Father" or "Hail Mary."

I am interested how Catholics view the papal teaching on the possibility that Rome will fall into apostasy.

I view this particular presentation as false and made-up in its particulars.

There is a long and short version of the prayer that can be found in older liturgy books.

What you see here is the fevered imagination of schismatics.

You would hop all over that Father Ambrose.

M.
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 01:16:32 AM »

Not meant to be inflammatory. It just seemed relevant to the thread. Worth your consideration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi1MIEPhUpU&feature=related
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 03:16:07 AM »

That link is to a sedevacantist group...



Indeed it is but they are simply relaying the prayer composed by the Supreme Pontiff.   The site itself no more invalidates the prayer than it would invalidate an "Our Father" or "Hail Mary."

I am interested how Catholics view the papal teaching on the possibility that Rome will fall into apostasy.

I view this particular presentation as false and made-up in its particulars.

There is a long and short version of the prayer that can be found in older liturgy books.

What you see here is the fevered imagination of schismatics.

You would hop all over that Father Ambrose.


M.

Dear Mary,

Have I been misled?    This came to me from your Orthodox monk spiritual advisor.  Why would he be participating in "the fevered imagination of schismatics" and why would he "hop all over that"?   Huh
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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2010, 04:03:51 AM »

is it not true however that if we acknowledge this as a blow to modern day Rome, we must admit that prior to Pope Leo at the earliest, Rome was not in Apostasy, and was Orthodox?
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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2010, 06:59:36 AM »

is it not true however that if we acknowledge this as a blow to modern day Rome, we must admit that prior to Pope Leo at the earliest, Rome was not in Apostasy, and was Orthodox?

See message 14 here
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27919.msg439853/topicseen.html#msg439853

It is a list of the holy Orthodox Popes of Rome - dozens of them!
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2010, 07:30:23 PM »

is it not true however that if we acknowledge this as a blow to modern day Rome, we must admit that prior to Pope Leo at the earliest, Rome was not in Apostasy, and was Orthodox?

See message 14 here
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27919.msg439853/topicseen.html#msg439853

It is a list of the holy Orthodox Popes of Rome - dozens of them!

Father,

From what I can tell, that list provides no Popes after 1054. I am talking post-schism. Using the the prayer and its historical context as some sort of wrecking ball against Rome, does it not mean we must view that any un-orthodoxy in Rome today developed after Pope Leo's prayer? Aka, even with the development of papal supremacy, the filioque etc, Rome did not fall into apostasy until the agreement between the devil and Jesus occurred? I don't really know how to word the question better.

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« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2010, 10:30:48 PM »

Pope Leo XIII’s Prayer to St. Michael – a Prophecy about the Future Apostasy in Rome

http://mostholyfamilymonastery.com/2_LeoXIII.pdf

Dire words from Pontiff about the apostasy of Rome which he included in the original Prayer to the Archangel Michael.

How is this viewed by Catholics?

Once again.  The text on this web site is doctored.  It is fabricated.  It is a fake.  Made up.  A lie.

Hello out there...

It ain't real.
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2010, 12:09:04 AM »

Pope Leo XIII’s Prayer to St. Michael – a Prophecy about the Future Apostasy in Rome

http://mostholyfamilymonastery.com/2_LeoXIII.pdf

Dire words from Pontiff about the apostasy of Rome which he included in the original Prayer to the Archangel Michael.

How is this viewed by Catholics?

Once again.  The text on this web site is doctored.  It is fabricated.  It is a fake.  Made up.  A lie.

Hello out there...

It ain't real.

I think you are right.  It all seems very suspicious.  And really, using Most Holy Family Monastery’s website as a defense against the Roman Catholic religion?  It would be akin to a Roman Catholic going onto an Old Calendarist website with a theology that looks like a cross between the works of Brother Nathaniel and David Icke (I’ve seen ‘em) to show the "truth" about modern day Eastern Orthodoxy.  A lot of credibility is being lost here, I think.  Just sayin’… :-/
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2010, 12:11:14 AM »

Some just don't get the message that quickly, I think it needs to sink in slowly...
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2010, 12:51:45 AM »

Just an observation, but it seems that in order for anyone to take that "prophecy" seriously, they would have to accept the underlying acceptance of papal universal jurisdiction and infallibility, which are both hinted at as being true.

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In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2010, 12:59:53 AM »

Pope Leo XIII’s Prayer to St. Michael – a Prophecy about the Future Apostasy in Rome

http://mostholyfamilymonastery.com/2_LeoXIII.pdf

Dire words from Pontiff about the apostasy of Rome which he included in the original Prayer to the Archangel Michael.

How is this viewed by Catholics?

Once again.  The text on this web site is doctored.  It is fabricated.  It is a fake.  Made up.  A lie.

Hello out there...

It ain't real.

I think you are right.  It all seems very suspicious.  And really, using Most Holy Family Monastery’s website as a defense against the Roman Catholic religion?  It would be akin to a Roman Catholic going onto an Old Calendarist website with a theology that looks like a cross between the works of Brother Nathaniel and David Icke (I’ve seen ‘em) to show the "truth" about modern day Eastern Orthodoxy.  A lot of credibility is being lost here, I think.  Just sayin’… :-/


The article came to me from Mary's Orthodox spiritual father, a hieromonk in the great schema.  Mary, it seems that you and I have been misled?  Are you quite sure that Fr Ambrose is mistaken?
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2010, 01:51:57 AM »

Wikipedia is your friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_Saint_Michael#Speculation_about_the_origin_of_the_prayers

The story appears apocryphal, although it has taken on a prophetic hue, much like the "smoke of satan" remark attributed to Paul VI. Needless to say, such stories are widely popular among those who believe in the pervasive influence of the evil one in the Roman church.
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2010, 01:58:46 AM »

Wikipedia is your friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_Saint_Michael#Speculation_about_the_origin_of_the_prayers

The story appears apocryphal, although it has taken on a prophetic hue, much like the "smoke of satan" remark attributed to Paul VI. Needless to say, such stories are widely popular among those who believe in the pervasive influence of the evil one in the Roman church.

My information came, not from Wikipedia, but from Father Great Schemamonk Ambrose (Alexei Young.)  Whether or not he "believes in the pervasive influence of the evil one in the Roman church" is something I do not know.
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2010, 02:18:33 AM »

There's no need to be snarky. This story is very popular in Roman Catholic traditionalist circles, along with the "smoke of Satan" remarks, and a variety of Fatima groups who sought to find answers for the post-Conciliar confusion in the church to the visions of the three children. These assorted groups all definitely believe in the influence of Satan in the church. The main culprits for the dissemination of the story are traditionalist groups and Marian apparition cultists.

In recent years the Leo XIII prophecy was widely disseminated by a condemned Marian apparition site in the 1970s and 1980s. Wikipedia claims that the first known instance of the story in modern form can be traced to a 1935 publication "Begone Satan" (later reprinted by TAN publishers in the mid-1970s in the middle of the Exorcist craze). I don't know where the monk got his story, but it could have come from a variety of places.

As I write this, I recall a passage from one of Malachi Martin's books - Windswept House - describing a Satanic black mass taking place from in 1963, celebrated by high-ranking clerics. Martin - who authored, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church" hinted his fiction had a historic basis.
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2010, 08:50:01 AM »

Pope Leo XIII’s Prayer to St. Michael – a Prophecy about the Future Apostasy in Rome

http://mostholyfamilymonastery.com/2_LeoXIII.pdf

Dire words from Pontiff about the apostasy of Rome which he included in the original Prayer to the Archangel Michael.

How is this viewed by Catholics?

Once again.  The text on this web site is doctored.  It is fabricated.  It is a fake.  Made up.  A lie.

Hello out there...

It ain't real.

I think you are right.  It all seems very suspicious.  And really, using Most Holy Family Monastery’s website as a defense against the Roman Catholic religion?  It would be akin to a Roman Catholic going onto an Old Calendarist website with a theology that looks like a cross between the works of Brother Nathaniel and David Icke (I’ve seen ‘em) to show the "truth" about modern day Eastern Orthodoxy.  A lot of credibility is being lost here, I think.  Just sayin’… :-/


The article came to me from Mary's Orthodox spiritual father, a hieromonk in the great schema.  Mary, it seems that you and I have been misled?  Are you quite sure that Fr Ambrose is mistaken?

For the record, my spiritual Father is a Byzantine Catholic priest in upstate New York.  I have no other spiritual father.

Father Ambrose was asking us if it was real.  I posted the actual prayers on Irenikon as you know.

This prophetic fiction that you continue to press as fact has wide circulation among the crackpots of the Catholic Church.

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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2010, 10:04:05 AM »


This prophetic fiction that you continue to press as fact has wide circulation among the crackpots of the Catholic Church.


The crackpots of the Catholic Church are those who stuff their fingers in their ears and refuse to hear any talk of the possibility of heresy and apostasy in Rome.  There is the prophetic fiction.

The Orthodox on the other hand, and I imagine the Eastern Catholics, are aware that any of the Churches may have lapses into heresy and apostasy.
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2010, 10:08:11 AM »


This prophetic fiction that you continue to press as fact has wide circulation among the crackpots of the Catholic Church.


The Orthodox on the other hand, and I imagine the Eastern Catholics, are aware that any of the Churches may have lapses into heresy and apostasy.

Since most of the genuine heresies in the Body of Christ come out of the east your observation is simply logical.
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2010, 11:04:17 AM »


This prophetic fiction that you continue to press as fact has wide circulation among the crackpots of the Catholic Church.


The Orthodox on the other hand, and I imagine the Eastern Catholics, are aware that any of the Churches may have lapses into heresy and apostasy.


Since most of the genuine heresies in the Body of Christ come out of the east your observation is simply logical.

No heresy can compare with the enormity of the heresy that God created a beast called the papacy to rule His Bride.

Dostoyevsky (The Grand Inquisitor) was so right.
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2010, 11:11:18 AM »


This prophetic fiction that you continue to press as fact has wide circulation among the crackpots of the Catholic Church.


The Orthodox on the other hand, and I imagine the Eastern Catholics, are aware that any of the Churches may have lapses into heresy and apostasy.


Since most of the genuine heresies in the Body of Christ come out of the east your observation is simply logical.

No heresy can compare with the enormity of the heresy that God created a beast called the papacy to rule His Bride.

Dostoyevsky (The Grand Inquisitor) was so right.

That my dear is a matter of opinion and not evidence.
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2010, 11:25:43 AM »


This prophetic fiction that you continue to press as fact has wide circulation among the crackpots of the Catholic Church.


The Orthodox on the other hand, and I imagine the Eastern Catholics, are aware that any of the Churches may have lapses into heresy and apostasy.


Since most of the genuine heresies in the Body of Christ come out of the east your observation is simply logical.

No heresy can compare with the enormity of the heresy that God created a beast called the papacy to rule His Bride.

Dostoyevsky (The Grand Inquisitor) was so right.

That my dear is a matter of opinion and not evidence.

That is a fact, and one which it is now evident will derail the dialogue with Rome.  The Church knows that there is no universal earthly master ruling the Bride.
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 11:33:08 AM »


This prophetic fiction that you continue to press as fact has wide circulation among the crackpots of the Catholic Church.


The Orthodox on the other hand, and I imagine the Eastern Catholics, are aware that any of the Churches may have lapses into heresy and apostasy.


Since most of the genuine heresies in the Body of Christ come out of the east your observation is simply logical.

No heresy can compare with the enormity of the heresy that God created a beast called the papacy to rule His Bride.

Dostoyevsky (The Grand Inquisitor) was so right.

That my dear is a matter of opinion and not evidence.

That is a fact, and one which it is now evident will derail the dialogue with Rome.  The Church knows that there is no universal earthly master riding the Bride.

Your vulgarity here is a mate to your license on other sexual issues.

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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2010, 11:37:07 AM »


This prophetic fiction that you continue to press as fact has wide circulation among the crackpots of the Catholic Church.


The Orthodox on the other hand, and I imagine the Eastern Catholics, are aware that any of the Churches may have lapses into heresy and apostasy.


Since most of the genuine heresies in the Body of Christ come out of the east your observation is simply logical.

No heresy can compare with the enormity of the heresy that God created a beast called the papacy to rule His Bride.

Dostoyevsky (The Grand Inquisitor) was so right.

That my dear is a matter of opinion and not evidence.

That is a fact, and one which it is now evident will derail the dialogue with Rome.  The Church knows that there is no universal earthly master riding the Bride.

Your vulgarity here is a mate to your license on other sexual issues.



The spellchecker must have done that.  The word should be "ruling" as it was in the previous message.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Of course one doubts if anything can match the licence on sexual issues which the Catholic clergy allow themselves.  Isn't it Andrew Greeley who reports that between 25% and 50% of Catholic priests break their vows and engage in sexual relations?
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2010, 11:44:58 AM »

Sigh....
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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2010, 02:09:13 PM »

Sigh....

lol
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2010, 02:20:06 PM »

Since most of the genuine heresies in the Body of Christ come out of the east your observation is simply logical.

Hmm... what else came from the East in Christianity... what could it be? Unless, of course, Jesus and the Apostles were all born and lived their lives in Rome...

Smiley

Quote
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. S. Mat. 24:27

Which considering that is in the context in of one of the apocalyptical prophecies of Jesus concerning the confusion of the last days, could well be understood as the return of the West into the the True Church which comes from the East. Either way, even if it's not about that, it's the light of the East that shone and will shine on the West.
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« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2010, 02:47:17 PM »

Since most of the genuine heresies in the Body of Christ come out of the east your observation is simply logical.

Hmm... what else came from the East in Christianity... what could it be? Unless, of course, Jesus and the Apostles were all born and lived their lives in Rome...

Smiley

Quote
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. S. Mat. 24:27

Which considering that is in the context in of one of the apocalyptical prophecies of Jesus concerning the confusion of the last days, could well be understood as the return of the West into the the True Church which comes from the East. Either way, even if it's not about that, it's the light of the East that shone and will shine on the West.

As lightening is violent and destructive, so heresies are violent and destructive and since they struck hardest from the east, so hard that they spread out into the west, then yes, the Son of Man may indeed be prompted to come into the west and draw the east back into the Body of Christ.  That seems entirely plausible to me.
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« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2010, 03:16:23 PM »


As lightening is violent and destructive, so heresies are violent and destructive and since they struck hardest from the east, so hard that they spread out into the west, then yes, the Son of Man may indeed be prompted to come into the west and draw the east back into the Body of Christ.  That seems entirely plausible to me.


Could be. But that's not what the Fathers think about the passage:

Hilary: The false prophets, of whom He had spoken above, shall say of Christ one while, “Lo, He is in the desert,” in order that they may cause men to wander astray; another while, “Lo, He is in the secret chambers,” that they may enthral men under the dominion of Antichrist. But the Lord declares Himself to be neither lurking in a remote corner, nor shut up to be visited singly, but that He shall be exhibited to the view of all, and in every place, “As the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.”

Origen: Or, when they allege secret and before unpublished Scriptures, in proof of their lie, they seem to say, Lo, the word of truth is in the desert. But when they produce canonical Scripture in which all Christians agree, they seem to say, Lo, the word of truth is in the chambers.

Or wishing to point out such discourses as are altogether without Scripture, He said, “If they shall say to you, Lo, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not.” Truth is like the “lightning that cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west.”

Or this may mean, that truth can be supported out of every passage of Scripture. The lightning of truth comes out of “the east,” that is, from the first beginnings of Christ, and shines throughout even to His passion, which is His setting; or from the very beginning of creation, to the last Scripture of the Apostles.

Or, “the east” is the Law, “the west” is the end of the Law, and of John’s prophecy. The Church alone neither takes away word or meaning from this lightning, nor adds aught to its prophecy.

Or He means that we should give no heed to those who say, “Lo, here is Christ,” but shew Him not in the Church, in which alone is the coming or the Son of Man, who said, “Lo, I am with you, always even to the end of the world.” [Matt 28:20]



Chrysostom: As He had above described in what guise Antichrist should come, so here He describes how He Himself shall come. For as the lightning needeth none to herald or announce it, but is in an instant of time visible throughout the whole world, even to those that are sitting in their chambers, so the coming of Christ shall be seen every where at once, because of the brightness of His glory.

Another sign He adds of His coming, “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The eagles denote the company of the Angels, Martyrs, and Saints.

Jerome: By an instance from nature, which we daily see, we are instructed in a sacrament of Christ. Eagles and vultures are said to scent dead bodies even beyond sea, and to flock to feed upon them. If then birds, not having the gift of reason, by instinct alone find out where lays a dead body, separated by so great space of country, how much more ought the whole multitude of believers to hasten to Christ, whose lightning goeth forth out of the east, and shines even to the west? We may understand by the carcase here, or corpse [πτωμα], which in the Latin is more expressively ‘cadaver,’ an allusion to the passion of Christ’s death.

Jerome: If then any one assert to you that Christ tarries in “the desert” of the Gentiles, or in the teaching of the Philosophers, or in “the secret chambers” of the heretics, who promise the hidden things of God, believe Him not, but believe that the Catholic Faith shines from “east to west” in [p. 821] the Churches. (Ops! Smiley )

Augustine, Quaest. Ev., i, 38: By the “east” and “west,” He signifies the whole world, throughout which the Church should be. In the same way as He said below, “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of Man coming in the clouds, of heaven,” [Matt 26:64] so now He likens His coming to lightning, which uses to flash out of the clouds. When then the authority of the Church is set up clear and manifest throughout the whole world, He suitably warns His disciples that they should not believe schismatics and heretics. Each schism and heresy holds its own place, either occupying some important position in the earth, or ensnaring men’s curiosity in obscure and remote conventicles.

“Lo, here is Christ, or lo, there,” refers to some district or province of the earth; “the secret chambers,” or “the desert,” signify the obscure and lurking conventicles of heretics.

-------------------------------

But you know, it's good you mentioned the "east as source of all heresies" myth. People complain that some Orthodox seem to still hold a grudge on the Crusades, but RCs still have an even bigger prejudice with that. Truly, for all the period of the Byzantine Papacy, during which the popes came from the Byzantine court and could only be elected with the approval of the Roman Emperor, the Roman see fought bravely against the imperial heresies. What Western culture failed to see then and still fails to see now is that the cause of the widespread of such heresies was not because they "came from the East". The popes who fought them also came from the East. The cause was the overcentralized and authoritarian power of the emperor, and the reason why Rome was free to fight it was because although de jure in the Empire, it was already de facto outside it, and this fact certainly did not escape the intelligence of the Greek Popes. For the entire period the Greek popes fought imperial heresies, what we have is a once brilliant but now relatively small city resisting the might of authoritarian rulers - which *is* the glory of Greek and Western history after all. Yet, when the popes turned to the Caroligean kings recreating an empire in the West, they created an authoritarian monster just next door, one that could not be so easily ignored as the distant Basileus. And to beat the authoritarian monster, it became a bigger authoritarian monster. This transformation lasted the whole medieval age and the new "improved" communion is the thing we witness at the beginning of the Renasaince.

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« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2010, 03:27:02 PM »


As lightening is violent and destructive, so heresies are violent and destructive and since they struck hardest from the east, so hard that they spread out into the west, then yes, the Son of Man may indeed be prompted to come into the west and draw the east back into the Body of Christ.  That seems entirely plausible to me.


Could be. But that's not what the Fathers think about the passage:

Hilary: The false prophets, of whom He had spoken above, shall say of Christ one while, “Lo, He is in the desert,” in order that they may cause men to wander astray; another while, “Lo, He is in the secret chambers,” that they may enthral men under the dominion of Antichrist. But the Lord declares Himself to be neither lurking in a remote corner, nor shut up to be visited singly, but that He shall be exhibited to the view of all, and in every place, “As the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.”

Origen: Or, when they allege secret and before unpublished Scriptures, in proof of their lie, they seem to say, Lo, the word of truth is in the desert. But when they produce canonical Scripture in which all Christians agree, they seem to say, Lo, the word of truth is in the chambers.

Or wishing to point out such discourses as are altogether without Scripture, He said, “If they shall say to you, Lo, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not.” Truth is like the “lightning that cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west.”

Or this may mean, that truth can be supported out of every passage of Scripture. The lightning of truth comes out of “the east,” that is, from the first beginnings of Christ, and shines throughout even to His passion, which is His setting; or from the very beginning of creation, to the last Scripture of the Apostles.

Or, “the east” is the Law, “the west” is the end of the Law, and of John’s prophecy. The Church alone neither takes away word or meaning from this lightning, nor adds aught to its prophecy.

Or He means that we should give no heed to those who say, “Lo, here is Christ,” but shew Him not in the Church, in which alone is the coming or the Son of Man, who said, “Lo, I am with you, always even to the end of the world.” [Matt 28:20]



Chrysostom: As He had above described in what guise Antichrist should come, so here He describes how He Himself shall come. For as the lightning needeth none to herald or announce it, but is in an instant of time visible throughout the whole world, even to those that are sitting in their chambers, so the coming of Christ shall be seen every where at once, because of the brightness of His glory.

Another sign He adds of His coming, “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The eagles denote the company of the Angels, Martyrs, and Saints.

Jerome: By an instance from nature, which we daily see, we are instructed in a sacrament of Christ. Eagles and vultures are said to scent dead bodies even beyond sea, and to flock to feed upon them. If then birds, not having the gift of reason, by instinct alone find out where lays a dead body, separated by so great space of country, how much more ought the whole multitude of believers to hasten to Christ, whose lightning goeth forth out of the east, and shines even to the west? We may understand by the carcase here, or corpse [πτωμα], which in the Latin is more expressively ‘cadaver,’ an allusion to the passion of Christ’s death.

Jerome: If then any one assert to you that Christ tarries in “the desert” of the Gentiles, or in the teaching of the Philosophers, or in “the secret chambers” of the heretics, who promise the hidden things of God, believe Him not, but believe that the Catholic Faith shines from “east to west” in [p. 821] the Churches. (Ops! Smiley )

Augustine, Quaest. Ev., i, 38: By the “east” and “west,” He signifies the whole world, throughout which the Church should be. In the same way as He said below, “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of Man coming in the clouds, of heaven,” [Matt 26:64] so now He likens His coming to lightning, which uses to flash out of the clouds. When then the authority of the Church is set up clear and manifest throughout the whole world, He suitably warns His disciples that they should not believe schismatics and heretics. Each schism and heresy holds its own place, either occupying some important position in the earth, or ensnaring men’s curiosity in obscure and remote conventicles.

“Lo, here is Christ, or lo, there,” refers to some district or province of the earth; “the secret chambers,” or “the desert,” signify the obscure and lurking conventicles of heretics.

-------------------------------

But you know, it's good you mentioned the "east as source of all heresies" myth. People complain that some Orthodox seem to still hold a grudge on the Crusades, but RCs still have an even bigger prejudice with that. Truly, for all the period of the Byzantine Papacy, during which the popes came from the Byzantine court and could only be elected with the approval of the Roman Emperor, the Roman see fought bravely against the imperial heresies. What Western culture failed to see then and still fails to see now is that the cause of the widespread of such heresies was not because they "came from the East". The popes who fought them also came from the East. The cause was the overcentralized and authoritarian power of the emperor, and the reason why Rome was free to fight it was because although de jure in the Empire, it was already de facto outside it, and this fact certainly did not escape the intelligence of the Greek Popes. For the entire period the Greek popes fought imperial heresies, what we have is a once brilliant but now relatively small city resisting the might of authoritarian rulers - which *is* the glory of Greek and Western history after all. Yet, when the popes turned to the Caroligean kings recreating an empire in the West, they created an authoritarian monster just next door, one that could not be so easily ignored as the distant Basileus. And to beat the authoritarian monster, it became a bigger authoritarian monster. This transformation lasted the whole medieval age and the new "improved" communion is the thing we witness at the beginning of the Renasaince.



You should work to get this history published.  I know a few good revisionist presses.  Let me know when the book is finished.
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« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2010, 03:39:06 PM »


You should work to get this history published.  I know a few good revisionist presses.  Let me know when the book is finished.

Which part?

That there was a Byzantine papacy for a long time? That popes came from byzantine courts for a long time? That many of them were ethnically Greek? That people with too much power in their hands often abuse it to promote their own ideas as coming from God? That after years of abandonment the Popes turned to the Caroligean kings which killed en masse the Roman Bishops to substitute them for Frank generals? That all the reforms of the medieval ages that asserted and increased papal powers were a reaction to the abuses of the Frank-Germanic kings? That the RC had become so mingled with Frank culture that it almost moved to France? Nothing of this is new, just well known history.
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« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2010, 03:49:57 PM »


You should work to get this history published.  I know a few good revisionist presses.  Let me know when the book is finished.

Which part?

That there was a Byzantine papacy for a long time? That popes came from byzantine courts for a long time? That many of them were ethnically Greek? That people with too much power in their hands often abuse it to promote their own ideas as coming from God? That after years of abandonment the Popes turned to the Caroligean kings which killed en masse the Roman Bishops to substitute them for Frank generals? That all the reforms of the medieval ages that asserted and increased papal powers were a reaction to the abuses of the Frank-Germanic kings? That the RC had become so mingled with Frank culture that it almost moved to France? Nothing of this is new, just well known history.

Well there ya go.  A single paragraph history of the Catholic Church!!

Shall we do one for Orthodoxy?

 laugh laugh laugh laugh

Nah!  I just came off moderation!!
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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2010, 04:01:37 PM »


You should work to get this history published.  I know a few good revisionist presses.  Let me know when the book is finished.

Which part?

That there was a Byzantine papacy for a long time? That popes came from byzantine courts for a long time? That many of them were ethnically Greek? That people with too much power in their hands often abuse it to promote their own ideas as coming from God? That after years of abandonment the Popes turned to the Caroligean kings which killed en masse the Roman Bishops to substitute them for Frank generals? That all the reforms of the medieval ages that asserted and increased papal powers were a reaction to the abuses of the Frank-Germanic kings? That the RC had become so mingled with Frank culture that it almost moved to France? Nothing of this is new, just well known history.

Well there ya go.  A single paragraph history of the Catholic Church!!

Shall we do one for Orthodoxy?

 laugh laugh laugh laugh

Nah!  I just came off moderation!!

Not it's not. That's just your usual strawmen. Mine is a reference for a well documented period of papal history. Enjoy yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Papacy

Contents
1 During the Roman Empire (until 493)
1.1 Early Christianity
1.2 From Constantine (312-493)

2 Middle Ages (493–1417)
2.1 Ostrogothic Papacy (493–537)
2.2 Byzantine Papacy (537–752)
2.3 Frankish influence (756–857)
These are the two first periods I mentioned.
2.4 Influence of powerful Roman families (904-1048)
2.5 Conflicts with the Emperor and East (1048-1257)
2.6 The Wandering Popes (1257–1309)
2.7 Avignon Papacy (1309-1377)
2.8 Western Schism (1378-1417)
Here the Papacy finally gets rid of Frank/French influence.

3 Early Modern and Modern Era (1417-present)
3.1 Renaissance Papacy (1417-1534)
3.2 Reformation and Counter-Reformation (1517-1585)
3.3 Baroque Papacy (1585-1689)
3.4 During the Age of Revolution (1775–1848)
3.5 Roman Question (1870–1929)
3.6 From the creation of Vatican City (1929)
3.6.1 World War II (1939-1945)
3.6.2 From Vatican II (1962-1965)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_popes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Papacy

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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2010, 04:11:09 PM »

Or have a look at these tables:

Statistics table
Nationality                                          Number of Popes                  Percentage of total

Africa Province (Roman Empire)               3                                      1.1

Dalmatia (Kingdom of the Lombards)         1                                     0.4

England                                              1                                      0.4

Kingdom of France (medieval)
French part of Holy Roman Empire           18                                    6.8

German part of Holy Roman Empire
Modern Germany                                  6                                     2.2

Roman Greece
Byzantine Greece                                 9                                     3.4

Italian Peninsula (see table below)          190                                  71.7

Roman Galilee
Iudaea Province (Roman Empire)
Byzantine Palestine                               3                                     1.1

Dutch part of Holy Roman Empire             1                                    0.4

People's Republic of Poland                     1                                     0.4

Lusitania (Roman Empire)
Portugal                                              2                                    0.8

Roman Syria
Byzantine Syria                                    5                                      2.3

Valencia (part of the Crown of Aragon)    2                                     0.8

Unknown                                          23                                      8.7

Total 265

Italian Peninsula
Nationality                    Number of Popes             Percentage of Italians                   Percentage of total
Roman Italy                                     21                      11.1                                  7.9
 
Ostrogothic Kingdom                           9                        3.2                                  2.3
 
Byzantine Italy                                 22                         11.7                                 8.3

Republic of Florence
Duchy of Florence
Grand Duchy of Tuscany                     6                          3.2                                  2.3

Republic of Genoa                              3                           1.6                                 1.1

Italian part of Holy Roman Empire          3                           1.6                                 1.1

Papal States                                   117                           62.2                             44.1

Republic of Venice                             3                             1.6                               1.1

Kingdom of Italy (1861–1946)             4                             2.1                                 1.5

Italian Republic                                3                             1.6                                 1.1

Total Italians                                190                            71.7


So there you have it, at least 39 popes somehow, directly or indirectly, related to Byzantine culture.
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2010, 04:29:24 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Papacy#List_of_Byzantine_popes

This alternate table (indeed the web page itself) is dedicated to the "Byzantine Papacy", in which nearly all of the popes were directly answerable to the Roman emperor, beginning with Pope Vigilius and ending with Pope Zachary. 33 popes in all, of which a great number were of "Eastern" extraction. With the exception of Martin the Confessor, nearly all of them were personally selected by the Emperor.

The main references at Wikipedia come from this source:
# Ekonomou, Andrew J. 2007. Byzantine Rome and the Greek Popes: Eastern influences on Rome and the papacy from Gregory the Great to Zacharias, A.D. 590-752. Lexington Books.
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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2010, 06:08:17 PM »

Ok, so I think the point has changed?

Areyou now arguing that Byzantine culture makes for the fuller faith? After all, a few were itallian Byzantines. Certaintly still western, just byzantine in rite.

What is is that you're claiming? Is it Western, Latin, Papal, or something else that is the problem?
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« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2010, 08:50:31 AM »

My point is just to make a couple of well-documented historical facts to sink in.

I mentioned that there was a period during which Byzantine - in fact Hellenic-Roman - culture influenced the Papacy, than it turned to the Caroligean kings triggering the birth of the West as a new civilization, it backfired and the Franks, as a culture, held an even more authoritarian force over the popes to the point it almost moved the papacy to France. Most of the reforms of the papal institution in the medieval times were to protect it from Frank-Germanic influence and, the result of these reforms, is the *new* authocratic papal institution we know very well, which exists "only" since about the beginning of the Renasaince.

Basically, the Roman see existed more or less organically in the Hellenic-Roman civilization, and created a new one when united with the Caroligeans. The once barbaric kings and emperors were far less reasonable than the basileus regarding the symphony of state and church and, to not be entirely absorbed by the state, the papacy had to increase its power to be bigger than those of the kings and emperors, giving rise to the innovative theories about the role of the pope. This experience has jaded Rome's understanding of eclesiology, of the role of the primate and of the collegiate of bishops since then. That's my point.
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