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Author Topic: Imputed Righteousness  (Read 3449 times) Average Rating: 0
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DennyB
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« on: October 29, 2010, 08:14:52 PM »

  I just happen to be listening to Christian Radio on the way home,and came along a broadcast of Dr. Robert Jeffress of First Baptist Church in Dallas,just caught the last few minutes,and He says,and I'm paraphrasing this "Jesus gives us a new covering,making us a new creation". This simple statement made me trully realize why I am not a Protestant anymore. It made me want to call this guy up and ask Him to really think about what He just said. It is trully an absurd statement. You can dress a pig up in fine clothes and make-up,and it's still a pig!!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 08:17:12 PM by DennyB » Logged
Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 08:24:18 PM »

If righteousness is not imputed, then what happens at holy baptism?
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DennyB
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 08:42:59 PM »

If righteousness is not imputed, then what happens at holy baptism?

I apologize I should have titled my thread differently,I should have clarified saying how Protestants understand imputation,not that there is no imputation.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 08:47:12 PM »

If righteousness is not imputed, then what happens at holy baptism?

Something from Fr John Breck on "Imputed righteousness."

http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-print.asp?ID=114

"What we are saved from is the key issue here. Rather than view salvation primarily as a forensic liberation from guilt through imputed or imparted righteousness, we should see it as incorporation, by baptism, into Christ's death and resurrection, such that we “die and rise” with Him."
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 09:14:51 PM »

From Carmen Frangapane:  " I reiterated that the whole notion of imputed righteousness was a teaching not to be found in the Fathers, and that this has been confirmed by the likes of Alister McGrath, Gustaf Aulen and Jaroslav Pelikan. It should come as no surprise, then, that one doesn't find it in Orthodoxy..."

More at, in the notes....
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/jones_letters.aspx

-oOo-

An interesting essay of hers:

"Salvation By Christ: A Response to Credenda / Agenda
on Orthodoxy's Teaching of Theosis and the Doctrine of Salvation"

by Carmen Fragapane.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx

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ialmisry
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2010, 09:56:36 AM »

If righteousness is not imputed, then what happens at holy baptism?
It is like someone who has survived a deadly disease giving you a transfusion so you get his antibodies, rather than someone going to jail for you (which is how the imputed righteousness folks have explained their beliefs of substitutionary atonement, their term).
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2010, 12:46:14 AM »

John Henry Newman's Lectures on Justification remain, IMHO, one of the best catholic presentations on the subject.  Orthodox who would like to think my deeply on this issue should read and reread this book.  Contemplate, for example, how the following passages might fit into the Orthodox understanding of theosis:

1.
Quote
God’s word, I say, effects what it announces…. God’s word is the instrument of His deed. When, then, He solemnly utters the command, “Let the soul be just,” it becomes inwardly just;… On the whole then, from what has been said, it appears that justification is an announcement or fiat of Almighty God, which breaks upon the gloom of our natural state as the Creative Word upon Chaos; that it declares the soul righteous, and in that declaration, on the one hand, conveys pardon for its past sins, and on the other makes it actually righteous.

2.
Quote
Justification is a word of state and solemnity. Divine Mercy might have renewed us and kept it secret; this would have been an infinite and most unmerited grace, but He has done more. He justifies us; He not only makes, He declares, acknowledges, accepts us as holy. He recognises us as His own, and publicly repeals the sentence of wrath and the penal statutes which lie against us…. Before man has done anything as specimen, or paid anything as instalment, except faith, nor even faith in the case of infants, he has the whole treasures of redemption put to his credit, as if he were and had done infinitely more than he ever can be or do. He is “declared” after the pattern of his Saviour, to be the adopted “Son of God with power, by a” spiritual “resurrection.” His tears are wiped away; his fears, misgivings, remorse, shame, are changed for “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost;” he is clad in white, and has his crown given him. Thus justification is at first what renewal could but be at last; and, therefore, is by no means a mere result or consequence of renewal, but a real, though not a separate act of God’s mercy. It is a great and august deed in the sight of heaven and hell; it is not done in a corner, but by Him who would show the world “what should be done unto those whom the King delighteth to honour.” It is a pronouncing righteous while it proceeds to make righteous. As Almighty God in the beginning created the world solemnly and in form, speaking the word not to exclude, but to proclaim the deed,—as in the days of His flesh He made use of the creature and changed its properties not without a command; so does He new-create the soul by the breath of His mouth, by the sacrament of his Voice. The declaration of our righteousness, while it contains pardon for the past, promises holiness for the future.

Is there anything here to which an Orthodox might object?  If yes, what? on what grounds?
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 01:06:46 AM »

From what I know of Orthodoxy, our people would not know how to respond to Newman's writings on this issue since "justification" is a little alien to Orthodox theology and thinking.  Those who have been dialoguing with Lutherans etc., in the last few decades may be able to make a response but it would be a response extra ecclesiam.

As Valerie Karras writes:  "Eastern Christianity from its origins shows a singular lack of interest in discussing its soteriology in terms of justification."
http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm

To put it in sporting terms, I think that your question would be like asking someone who has never seen a game of rugby and does not know its rules and its terminology to comment on an international match.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:13:12 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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