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Poll
Question: If Science Disproved A Religious/Theological Belief of Yours, Would You Continue To Hold To It?
Yes - 19 (38.8%)
Maybe - 10 (20.4%)
No - 13 (26.5%)
None of the Above - 7 (14.3%)
Total Voters: 49

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Justin Kissel
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« on: October 29, 2010, 05:29:40 AM »

There's an interesting article at the Pew Research Center website: How the Public Resolves Conflicts Between Faith and Science. In particular, I wanted to talk about this paragraph from the article:

"When asked what they would do if scientists were to disprove a particular religious belief, nearly two-thirds (64%) of people say they would continue to hold to what their religion teaches rather than accept the contrary scientific finding, according to the results of an October 2006 Time magazine poll."

Does this accurately reflect your approach or mindset?

I think part of the problem here is that some would say something along the lines of "Science couldn't disprove one of my beliefs". However, we shouldn't confuse what a faith group teaches with what we each believe: even if you believe that your faith group (or holy book, or whatever) is correct in all it teaches, there's still the chance that you could misunderstand or be wrong as an individual.
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 06:18:35 AM »

Science is good for finding out non-God items which pose as God. Any item which can be analysed by science is not GOd. God is beyond science and science cannot analyse God.
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 06:38:33 AM »

Science is good for finding out non-God items which pose as God. Any item which can be analysed by science is not GOd. God is beyond science and science cannot analyse God.

For once we are in agreement!  Cheesy
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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 06:44:31 AM »

Science cannot analyze G-d, but can analyze and explain G-d's creation.
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 07:13:56 AM »

There's an interesting article at the Pew Research ...........ches with what we each believe: even if you believe that your faith group (or holy book, or whatever) is correct in all it teaches, there's still the chance that you could misunderstand or be wrong as an individual.

Science is noble in admitting unknown things. Heisenberg is a noble scientist and winner of Nobel Prize, who admitted the uncertain phenomena under the uncertainty principle.  It is not certain whether the electron is a wave or a particle. It has dual nature.  Dual nature is not a precise answer and admits the concept of uncertainty or unimaginable nature.

The God of science

   According to science, inert energy is basic material of this universe, which creates, maintains and finally dissolves entire creation and is the God of science.  The design of the world doesn’t require the need of awareness because a long duration of time has set up the design of world perfectly by the theory of probability.  Scientists do not accept the necessity of an intellectual agent to design this wonderful world as philosophers imagine in Vedanta (Brahmasutras). If this is the end of the story, science could have easily disposed the proposal of Vedanta and the scriptures can be easily concluded as poetic imaginations of certain poets. It can be easily concluded that certain people have created this poetry to exploit the society in the name of God. Anyone can easily believe science and by this time the world should have been filled with atheists only and today, the minority should be theists.

 But surprisingly the majority is theists and minority is only atheists.  The atheists say that since majority is uneducated, theism exists due to possibility of easy exploitation of uneducated people.  But even educated people show majority of theists only all over the world.  What is the reason for this?  The reason for this is that the unimaginable God is showing miracles in the lives of several people to establish the existence of unimaginable God. 

Not only this, the unimaginable God is exhibiting unimaginable miracles through several devotees and also demons widely.  Not only this, God is coming in human form and is offering explanation of the miracles and concept of God.  Genuine miracles are many in the world and the minority of atheists is unable to dispose these miracles as magic.  You may write the correct answer through copying in the examination.  Some body might have also written the same correct answer without copying in the examination.  Since the answer is one and same, can you say that the other person who has written the correct answer also copied necessarily? The product may be same but the methods of production vary. Sodium chloride can be produced in several ways. You have produced it in one way.  I have produced it in another way.  The end product is the same sodium chloride.  You cannot say that I have also produced in your way only. 
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 07:15:40 AM »

Science cannot analyze G-d, but can analyze and explain G-d's creation.

Correct. Science is the logical analysis of the items existing in this creation based on only one authority that is perception (Pratyaksha Pramanam). Even in the ancient logic, all the authorities (Pramanas) are based on perception only. You see the fire giving smoke. This is deduction or perception. When you see the smoke coming from a distance and do not see the fire, you say that fire exists there and this is induction or inference (Anumana Pramanam). But this induction is based on your previous deduction only. Somebody says to you that fire gives smoke. If that person is your dearest, you believe it and infer the fire from the smoke. This is authority of word ‘Shabdha Pramanam’.

Though you have not seen the fire, your dearest person has seen the smoke coming from fire. Like this all the authorities are based on perception only. I do not find any scripture of any Religion, which contradicts the experience of perception. There are four ways of authority. 1) Sruthi, which is the original scripture. 2) Smrithi, which is the commentaries of Scholars on the original scripture. 3) Yukthi, the logical analysis based on deduction, induction etc., 4) Anubhava, the experience based on the perception of the items in this world, which may be direct or indirect. Out of these four ways, the fourth way is the most powerful. If anything contradicts the fourth way, that is not valid or it may be a misinterpretation based on misunderstanding of the Sruthi or Smrithi or Yukthi. Thus Science and Philosophy are not separate. The very frame of the spiritual knowledge is Science only. Thus Science is the basic foundation and over all underlying structure of all the Scriptures.

A true Scientist should always stand on the perception and should not deny the experience derived by perception. If he denies, he is not a scientist. All top most scientists were philosophers and spiritual people only. Those scientists have travelled along the river of Science and reached its end, which is the ocean of spiritual knowledge called as philosophy. Philosophy is pervading all the branches of Science. Every branch of Science gives Ph.D as the final degree. Ph.D means Doctor in Philosophy. If Science and Philosophy are different, why this word Philosophy is regarded so much by all the branches of Science? Philosophy means the essence of the knowledge of every branch that is experienced when one reaches the end of that branch.

Therefore, the spiritual knowledge, which is the ocean is the Philosophy in which all branches of Science and all the Religions merge and loose their identity. A scientist who has not reached the end of Science and who is still travelling in the river only denies the existence of the ocean, since he is still perceiving the limiting boundaries of his knowledge – river. Such river-travellers are called as atheists. They neither see the ocean nor see the other rivers. Even the follower of any particular Religion is in the state of this atheist only. He is no better than these atheists because he believes that God is a particular form only, which is a small part of this creation. Some other followers believe God as formless, who is the all-pervading cosmic energy. Since cosmic energy is also a part of the creation, their form of God is very big. These atheist-scientist believe that this creation is God. Thus all these are atheists only. All these atheists, who may be scientific atheists or religious atheists, will realize the true nature of God only when they reach the end of the Science or Religion.

A scientific atheist is contradicting his own authority, which is the perception. When the human incarnation performs the inexplicable miracles, how can they deny the perception of such miracles? You may do that miracle in an alternative way, but that does not contradict the different path of the original miracle. One may get first class by copying. Such false first class cannot contradict the genuine first class. The result is same, but the process is different. You may produce ash by putting a fine powder of wet salt in the grews of your hand like a magician. The same ash may be produced by a divine miracle also. Since the result is same, can you argue that the process also should be same? Since the first class result is same in the case of the original student and a fraud student, do you mean that the hard work of the original student is fraud?

Do you mean that the original and fraud students are one and the same? Therefore, the same result can have two different processes. Since the result is same, processes need not be same. Do you mean that a result has only one process? Is it not contradicting the very fundamentals of Science? A Chemical compound can be produced in several ways (Hess Law). Since the compound is same, do you mean that the alternative reactions are also one and the same? Same Chennai city can be reached by several ways. Since the end City is same, do you mean that all the paths are not different? Do you mean that all the paths are merged as one path only and thus there is only one path to reach the Chennai city? Therefore, conservative scientists and conservative religious followers can be categorized as immature analysts. The immaturity indicates their position in the river and maturity indicates their position in the end of the river, which is the ocean. Einstein, Newton, Heisenberg etc., are the top most scientists who have travelled and travelled along the Science River and reached the final spiritual ocean.
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 01:45:47 PM »

There's an interesting article at the Pew Research Center website: How the Public Resolves Conflicts Between Faith and Science. In particular, I wanted to talk about this paragraph from the article:

"When asked what they would do if scientists were to disprove a particular religious belief, nearly two-thirds (64%) of people say they would continue to hold to what their religion teaches rather than accept the contrary scientific finding, according to the results of an October 2006 Time magazine poll."

Does this accurately reflect your approach or mindset?

I think part of the problem here is that some would say something along the lines of "Science couldn't disprove one of my beliefs". However, we shouldn't confuse what a faith group teaches with what we each believe: even if you believe that your faith group (or holy book, or whatever) is correct in all it teaches, there's still the chance that you could misunderstand or be wrong as an individual.
"Beliefs" is rather vague.

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 01:55:06 PM »

Based on the article, I think they are including things like creationism as, if not a religious belief per se, at least a belief closely connected with a religious... perhaps it could be called a religiously-motivated belief.
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 02:12:41 PM »

Based on the article, I think they are including things like creationism as, if not a religious belief per se, at least a belief closely connected with a religious... perhaps it could be called a religiously-motivated belief.

That understanding would change my answer from YES to MAYBE.  
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 03:41:05 PM »

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so.  Suppose we perfected a technique for recording the light, originating from earth, that had reflected back from various heavenly bodies.  In looking at what's coming in from those bodies ~1000 light years from us, we could observe what went on during Christ's time.  Suppose that we could rule out all possibility, through exhaustive observation, of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion anywhere within the time frame we'd expect it. 

Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2010, 03:17:25 AM »

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so.  Suppose we perfected a technique for recording the light, originating from earth, that had reflected back from various heavenly bodies.  In looking at what's coming in from those bodies ~1000 light years from us, we could observe what went on during Christ's time.  Suppose that we could rule out all possibility, through exhaustive observation, of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion anywhere within the time frame we'd expect it. 

Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.

so for you, seeing is believing?
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2010, 09:02:39 AM »

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so.  Suppose we perfected a technique for recording the light, originating from earth, that had reflected back from various heavenly bodies.  In looking at what's coming in from those bodies ~1000 light years from us, we could observe what went on during Christ's time.  Suppose that we could rule out all possibility, through exhaustive observation, of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion anywhere within the time frame we'd expect it.  

Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.

Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2010, 10:56:00 AM »

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so.  Suppose we perfected a technique for recording the light, originating from earth, that had reflected back from various heavenly bodies.  In looking at what's coming in from those bodies ~1000 light years from us, we could observe what went on during Christ's time.  Suppose that we could rule out all possibility, through exhaustive observation, of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion anywhere within the time frame we'd expect it.  

Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.

Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.

I wouldn't go that far. If you could go back in time and determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gospel story is false, would you still believe it?
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2010, 11:33:04 AM »

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so.  Suppose we perfected a technique for recording the light, originating from earth, that had reflected back from various heavenly bodies.  In looking at what's coming in from those bodies ~1000 light years from us, we could observe what went on during Christ's time.  Suppose that we could rule out all possibility, through exhaustive observation, of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion anywhere within the time frame we'd expect it.  

Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.

Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.

I wouldn't go that far. If you could go back in time and determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gospel story is false, would you still believe it?

In that case, it's not modern science that's beat you. You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded. We can think up situations, where we can determine as scenario where, maybe, if things were false, we'd lose our faith... In reality, for modern science to disprove our faith, it would have to somehow determine that there is no spiritual aspect to reality. I don't see that being possible, so we are right back to where we started. YAY!
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2010, 11:36:44 AM »

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so.  Suppose we perfected a technique for recording the light, originating from earth, that had reflected back from various heavenly bodies.  In looking at what's coming in from those bodies ~1000 light years from us, we could observe what went on during Christ's time.  Suppose that we could rule out all possibility, through exhaustive observation, of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion anywhere within the time frame we'd expect it.  

Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.

Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.

I wouldn't go that far. If you could go back in time and determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gospel story is false, would you still believe it?

In that case, it's not modern science that's beat you.

Well, if we could make time travelling into the past a reality, it would be science, would it not? This would not disprove God in general, of course, but it could disprove certain claims of certain religions.
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2010, 11:46:50 AM »


You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded.

If you limit the definition of the word 'belief' to imply a mere intellectual assent of a series of facts being correct, then no you can't (which I think, by the way, is an innacurate definition of the word used in the bible to describe belief/faith, 'pisteuo') But if you consider belief/faith to mean 'fidelity to a particular way of life based on application of it's practical reality' then facts are not necessary to form the basis of your belief.
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2010, 12:11:56 PM »


You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded.

If you limit the definition of the word 'belief' to imply a mere intellectual assent of a series of facts being correct, then no you can't (which I think, by the way, is an innacurate definition of the word used in the bible to describe belief/faith, 'pisteuo') But if you consider belief/faith to mean 'fidelity to a particular way of life based on application of it's practical reality' then facts are not necessary to form the basis of your belief.

In concept, but to believe a pepperoni pizza is a cat, doesn't change the pizza. Belief isn't just a concept, it's based on reality.
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2010, 12:34:25 PM »


You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded.

If you limit the definition of the word 'belief' to imply a mere intellectual assent of a series of facts being correct, then no you can't (which I think, by the way, is an innacurate definition of the word used in the bible to describe belief/faith, 'pisteuo') But if you consider belief/faith to mean 'fidelity to a particular way of life based on application of it's practical reality' then facts are not necessary to form the basis of your belief.

In concept, but to believe a pepperoni pizza is a cat, doesn't change the pizza. Belief isn't just a concept, it's based on reality.
Maybe the pepperoni is made of cat.
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2010, 12:36:02 PM »


You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded.

If you limit the definition of the word 'belief' to imply a mere intellectual assent of a series of facts being correct, then no you can't (which I think, by the way, is an innacurate definition of the word used in the bible to describe belief/faith, 'pisteuo') But if you consider belief/faith to mean 'fidelity to a particular way of life based on application of it's practical reality' then facts are not necessary to form the basis of your belief.

In concept, but to believe a pepperoni pizza is a cat, doesn't change the pizza. Belief isn't just a concept, it's based on reality.
Maybe the pepperoni is made of cat.

touche'  Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2010, 12:38:27 PM »


You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded.

If you limit the definition of the word 'belief' to imply a mere intellectual assent of a series of facts being correct, then no you can't (which I think, by the way, is an innacurate definition of the word used in the bible to describe belief/faith, 'pisteuo') But if you consider belief/faith to mean 'fidelity to a particular way of life based on application of it's practical reality' then facts are not necessary to form the basis of your belief.

In concept, but to believe a pepperoni pizza is a cat, doesn't change the pizza. Belief isn't just a concept, it's based on reality.
Maybe the pepperoni is made of cat.

touche'  Cheesy
A pizza I'm sure Alf would love.
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2010, 12:51:36 PM »


You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded.

If you limit the definition of the word 'belief' to imply a mere intellectual assent of a series of facts being correct, then no you can't (which I think, by the way, is an innacurate definition of the word used in the bible to describe belief/faith, 'pisteuo') But if you consider belief/faith to mean 'fidelity to a particular way of life based on application of it's practical reality' then facts are not necessary to form the basis of your belief.

In concept, but to believe a pepperoni pizza is a cat, doesn't change the pizza. Belief isn't just a concept, it's based on reality.

So long as you eat the pizza, does it really matter whether you 'believe' (in the term of intellectual assent) it is a cat or a pizza if it provides you with the same taste and nutrients to your body either way?

I believe that faith/belief/pisteuo (in the traditional religious sense) is not based on evidence or even actual reality, but on application of it's practical reality.
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2010, 12:56:40 PM »


You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded.

If you limit the definition of the word 'belief' to imply a mere intellectual assent of a series of facts being correct, then no you can't (which I think, by the way, is an innacurate definition of the word used in the bible to describe belief/faith, 'pisteuo') But if you consider belief/faith to mean 'fidelity to a particular way of life based on application of it's practical reality' then facts are not necessary to form the basis of your belief.

In concept, but to believe a pepperoni pizza is a cat, doesn't change the pizza. Belief isn't just a concept, it's based on reality.

So long as you eat the pizza, does it really matter whether you 'believe' (in the term of intellectual assent) it is a cat or a pizza if it provides you with the same taste and nutrients to your body either way?

I believe that faith/belief/pisteuo (in the traditional religious sense) is not based on evidence or even actual reality, but on application of it's practical reality.

If it's not based on anything, but the spiritual experience alone, you would be more of a universalist. Afterall, it's not what you believe, but experiencing the divine?
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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2010, 01:24:18 PM »

Yes, I would continue to hold onto the belief. There will always be another scientific theory to come along and disprove the last theory. Besides, you wouldn't have a mathematician or biologist teacher grade your paper on Poetry or Literature would you?  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2010, 02:30:51 PM »


You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded.

If you limit the definition of the word 'belief' to imply a mere intellectual assent of a series of facts being correct, then no you can't (which I think, by the way, is an innacurate definition of the word used in the bible to describe belief/faith, 'pisteuo') But if you consider belief/faith to mean 'fidelity to a particular way of life based on application of it's practical reality' then facts are not necessary to form the basis of your belief.

In concept, but to believe a pepperoni pizza is a cat, doesn't change the pizza. Belief isn't just a concept, it's based on reality.

So long as you eat the pizza, does it really matter whether you 'believe' (in the term of intellectual assent) it is a cat or a pizza if it provides you with the same taste and nutrients to your body either way?

I believe that faith/belief/pisteuo (in the traditional religious sense) is not based on evidence or even actual reality, but on application of it's practical reality.

If it's not based on anything, but the spiritual experience alone, you would be more of a universalist. Afterall, it's not what you believe, but experiencing the divine?

Personally, I believe that Christianity is superior to other religions because the message of Christ speaks more fundamentally and completely to the human condition than any other belief systems before or after. In his own words,

"I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Here Christ calls us to action, urging us to live the life he showed us how to live, and to see for ourselves whether his message resonates with our hearts. Far from an intellectual assent, the actualization and realization of these words in my life is what my 'faith' is based upon.

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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2010, 04:48:36 PM »

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so.  Suppose we perfected a technique for recording the light, originating from earth, that had reflected back from various heavenly bodies.  In looking at what's coming in from those bodies ~1000 light years from us, we could observe what went on during Christ's time.  Suppose that we could rule out all possibility, through exhaustive observation, of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion anywhere within the time frame we'd expect it.  

Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.

Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.

I wouldn't go that far. If you could go back in time and determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gospel story is false, would you still believe it?

In that case, it's not modern science that's beat you.

Well, if we could make time travelling into the past a reality, it would be science, would it not? This would not disprove God in general, of course, but it could disprove certain claims of certain religions.

Only if you begin with a materialistic view of reality, and assume that whatever empiricist methods reveal is the ultimate reality of a given phenomenon. How would you know that your time travel is not producing a distorted vision?
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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2010, 05:17:56 PM »

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so.  Suppose we perfected a technique for recording the light, originating from earth, that had reflected back from various heavenly bodies.  In looking at what's coming in from those bodies ~1000 light years from us, we could observe what went on during Christ's time.  Suppose that we could rule out all possibility, through exhaustive observation, of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion anywhere within the time frame we'd expect it.  

Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.

Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.

I wouldn't go that far. If you could go back in time and determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gospel story is false, would you still believe it?

In that case, it's not modern science that's beat you.

Well, if we could make time travelling into the past a reality, it would be science, would it not? This would not disprove God in general, of course, but it could disprove certain claims of certain religions.

Only if you begin with a materialistic view of reality, and assume that whatever empiricist methods reveal is the ultimate reality of a given phenomenon. How would you know that your time travel is not producing a distorted vision?

Well we could walk around Jerusalem and correlate history to confirm specific people, places, etc. Then we could ask around if anyone knows who Jesus is...maybe go find Pontius Pilate and see what he knows...would be kind of fun. Your point's still valid though, there could be supernatural things influencing our experiences, although there is also the remote possibility that satan planted all the evidence for evolution as well...
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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2010, 06:52:34 PM »

i cant answer this poll question because science will never disprove anything the Orthodox Church teaches
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2010, 08:40:14 PM »

i cant answer this poll question because science will never disprove anything the Orthodox Church teaches

The poll doesn't say anything about Orthodoxy. It says: "If Science Disproved A Religious/Theological Belief of Yours..." So unless you're claiming to be infallible, you certainly could have one of your beliefs disproven.
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2010, 11:09:14 PM »

i cant answer this poll question because science will never disprove anything the Orthodox Church teaches

The poll doesn't say anything about Orthodoxy. It says: "If Science Disproved A Religious/Theological Belief of Yours..." So unless you're claiming to be infallible, you certainly could have one of your beliefs disproven.

but im Orthodox ....

so i believe what the Church teaches ...
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2010, 03:47:58 AM »

i cant answer this poll question because science will never disprove anything the Orthodox Church teaches

The poll doesn't say anything about Orthodoxy. It says: "If Science Disproved A Religious/Theological Belief of Yours..." So unless you're claiming to be infallible, you certainly could have one of your beliefs disproven.

but im Orthodox ....

so i believe what the Church teaches ...

What does the Church teach about evolution?
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« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2010, 04:08:45 AM »

Based on my experience, this is the conclusion that I have come up with regarding the topic of this thread.

The more that a person believes a particular scientific theory will marginalize their religious belief system, the less likely they are to accept the theory, or 'believe' in it. I'll use evolution as an example.

For example, some people have established two distinct worldviews in their mind; evolution/atheism and creationism/theism. In their mind, if they are to believe in evolution, then they must necessarily throw all their beliefs out the window and become an atheist. I have seen articles online that attempt to show how a person who believes in evolution must logically reject the entire message of the bible. It is these who accept this false dichotomy, IMO, who are nearly unable to be persuaded to believe in evolution, regardless of how many facts they are presented with. In their mind, there is always the possibility that Satan planted all the evidence on earth that supports evolution in order to lure people away from God and the bible (or perhaps God is 'testing our faith'; i.e. tricking us). No matter how unlikely these scenarios are, since they believe evolution will jeopardize their whole belief system, they will reject it, because there is still that possibility for alternate explanations, however unlikely.

Therefore, if any scientific theory contradicts (in their mind at least) the plain reading of the scripture, this theory must be rejected. Basically this person is putting their interpretation of scripture as the highest standard of evidence; thereby declaring themselves infallible. A very shaky foundation to say the least.

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« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2010, 09:15:13 AM »


For example, some people have established two distinct worldviews in their mind; evolution/atheism and creationism/theism....It is these who accept this false dichotomy, IMO, who are nearly unable to be persuaded to believe in evolution....
Richard Dawkins accepts this false dichotomy, and yet he believes in evolution. Grin
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« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2010, 01:29:57 PM »

For example, some people have established two distinct worldviews in their mind; evolution/atheism and creationism/theism.

It's also a false dichotomy to assume that one must choose between Darwinism and modern "creationism", period. What both of these worldviews have in common is a crudely reductionistic view of the material world. It is because of a poor philosophical grounding that some Christians feel the need to either reconcile Darwinism with Christianity, or invent stories of Satan planting dinosaur bones.  The true falsehood of Darwinism can only be perceived by someone who understands the more general problems introduced by the dualist worldview called "modern science."
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« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2010, 02:17:04 PM »


For example, some people have established two distinct worldviews in their mind; evolution/atheism and creationism/theism....It is these who accept this false dichotomy, IMO, who are nearly unable to be persuaded to believe in evolution....
Richard Dawkins accepts this false dichotomy, and yet he believes in evolution. Grin

He respects ministers who are religious yet still believe in evolution (theistic evolution) yet he doesn't respect those who reject evolution wholesale.
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« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2010, 02:20:33 PM »

For example, some people have established two distinct worldviews in their mind; evolution/atheism and creationism/theism.

It's also a false dichotomy to assume that one must choose between Darwinism and modern "creationism", period. What both of these worldviews have in common is a crudely reductionistic view of the material world. It is because of a poor philosophical grounding that some Christians feel the need to either reconcile Darwinism with Christianity, or invent stories of Satan planting dinosaur bones.  The true falsehood of Darwinism can only be perceived by someone who understands the more general problems introduced by the dualist worldview called "modern science."

Theistic evolution is one possible option, which poses that God 'got the process started' and perhaps tweaked it along the way, or at least intervened at some point while humans were evolving to provide them with a soul. I really don't like to go down this path though, as far as attempting to reconcile religious views with science. I respect evolution as the dominant scientific explanation of the origins of species, whether God started it or guided it along the way I have no problem accepting.
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« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2010, 02:44:29 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned, and since this is a reality that is totally gone to us - our world is wholly changed - science has no possibility of actually proving this wrong.
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« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2010, 02:50:25 PM »


For example, some people have established two distinct worldviews in their mind; evolution/atheism and creationism/theism....It is these who accept this false dichotomy, IMO, who are nearly unable to be persuaded to believe in evolution....
Richard Dawkins accepts this false dichotomy, and yet he believes in evolution. Grin

He respects ministers who are religious yet still believe in evolution (theistic evolution) yet he doesn't respect those who reject evolution wholesale.
In his TED lecture on "Militant Atheism", Dawkins characterizes Christians who also believe in evolution (like the Pope, or Catholic biologist Ken Miller) as "deluding" themselves. (Dawkins argues that evolution, and science in general, is "deeply corrosive" to religion.) That's a strange way of showing "respect". Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2010, 03:33:41 PM »


For example, some people have established two distinct worldviews in their mind; evolution/atheism and creationism/theism....It is these who accept this false dichotomy, IMO, who are nearly unable to be persuaded to believe in evolution....
Richard Dawkins accepts this false dichotomy, and yet he believes in evolution. Grin

He respects ministers who are religious yet still believe in evolution (theistic evolution) yet he doesn't respect those who reject evolution wholesale.
In his TED lecture on "Militant Atheism", Dawkins characterizes Christians who also believe in evolution (like the Pope, or Catholic biologist Ken Miller) as "deluding" themselves. (Dawkins argues that evolution, and science in general, is "deeply corrosive" to religion.) That's a strange way of showing "respect". Smiley

He does show different faces depending on who his audience is apparently.
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« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2010, 03:34:20 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned, and since this is a reality that is totally gone to us - our world is wholly changed - science has no possibility of actually proving this wrong.

Are you sure about this?
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« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2010, 03:56:38 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned,
Nothing?  Nothing is pretty absolute.  Where does the Church teach this?
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« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2010, 08:07:53 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned, and since this is a reality that is totally gone to us - our world is wholly changed - science has no possibility of actually proving this wrong.

Are you sure about this?

yes
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« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2010, 08:10:09 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned,
Nothing?  Nothing is pretty absolute.  Where does the Church teach this?

the fact that God did not create death is the standard teaching of the Church ... I'd be interested in seeing where the Saints or hymns teach otherwise ...

http://oldbelieving.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/the-entire-creation-was-created-incorrupt/
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« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2010, 08:35:18 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned, and since this is a reality that is totally gone to us - our world is wholly changed - science has no possibility of actually proving this wrong.

I'm pretty sure science is able to show that this isn't a young earth and that there was death before mankind was on the earth from the fossil record alone...
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« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2010, 08:45:30 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned, and since this is a reality that is totally gone to us - our world is wholly changed - science has no possibility of actually proving this wrong.

I'm pretty sure science is able to show that this isn't a young earth and that there was death before mankind was on the earth from the fossil record alone...

Yes, a reductionistic, materialistic natural philosophy would produce such a picture. Likewise, I'm sure in the future "science" will prove that the universe is cyclical (the "big bounce" theory). Fortunately, we Christians don't rely on the ideology of Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton to interpret the creation for us.

As jckstraw72 said, the Fall of man produced profound changes in the creation. It's rather naive to assume that we can get an accurate picture of the pre-Fall creation by empirically examining the corrupted creation today.
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« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2010, 08:53:36 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned, and since this is a reality that is totally gone to us - our world is wholly changed - science has no possibility of actually proving this wrong.

I'm pretty sure science is able to show that this isn't a young earth and that there was death before mankind was on the earth from the fossil record alone...

Yes, a reductionistic, materialistic natural philosophy would produce such a picture. Likewise, I'm sure in the future "science" will prove that the universe is cyclical (the "big bounce" theory). Fortunately, we Christians don't rely on the ideology of Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton to interpret the creation for us.

As jckstraw72 said, the Fall of man produced profound changes in the creation. It's rather naive to assume that we can get an accurate picture of the pre-Fall creation by empirically examining the corrupted creation today.

I was going to type a long winded response, but I don't think this is the type of 'argument' i should continue, especially considering my fledgling faith.
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« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2010, 11:06:46 PM »

For example, some people have established two distinct worldviews in their mind; evolution/atheism and creationism/theism.

It's also a false dichotomy to assume that one must choose between Darwinism and modern "creationism", period. What both of these worldviews have in common is a crudely reductionistic view of the material world. It is because of a poor philosophical grounding that some Christians feel the need to either reconcile Darwinism with Christianity, or invent stories of Satan planting dinosaur bones.  The true falsehood of Darwinism can only be perceived by someone who understands the more general problems introduced by the dualist worldview called "modern science."

Besides perhaps Human Image: World Image by Philip Sherrard, what book(s) would you say articulate an Orthodox viewpoint on this?
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« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2010, 11:22:26 AM »

Does the Orthodox Church really teach "young earth creationism" as a *dogma* which *must* be accepted?  Like Ortho_cat, I'd like to see more proof of that.
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« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2010, 11:32:13 AM »

For example, some people have established two distinct worldviews in their mind; evolution/atheism and creationism/theism.

It's also a false dichotomy to assume that one must choose between Darwinism and modern "creationism", period. What both of these worldviews have in common is a crudely reductionistic view of the material world. It is because of a poor philosophical grounding that some Christians feel the need to either reconcile Darwinism with Christianity, or invent stories of Satan planting dinosaur bones.  The true falsehood of Darwinism can only be perceived by someone who understands the more general problems introduced by the dualist worldview called "modern science."

Besides perhaps Human Image: World Image by Philip Sherrard, what book(s) would you say articulate an Orthodox viewpoint on this?

St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain gives a good outline of the Orthodox Christian way of contemplating creation, toward the end of his Handbook of Spiritual Counsel. As further reading, he recommends St. Basil's Hexaemeron.

Recently, St. Tikhon's press reprinted St. Nikolai of Zica's essay The Universe as Signs and Symbols. I've ordered it, but haven't received it in the mail yet, so I can't personally comment on it, though from the description it also appears to include an outline of Orthodox natural philosophy.
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« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2010, 03:21:51 PM »

What here is meant by science?

What is meant by disproof?
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« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2010, 03:34:50 PM »


You can't believe in a lie. So the question is loaded.

If you limit the definition of the word 'belief' to imply a mere intellectual assent of a series of facts being correct, then no you can't (which I think, by the way, is an innacurate definition of the word used in the bible to describe belief/faith, 'pisteuo') But if you consider belief/faith to mean 'fidelity to a particular way of life based on application of it's practical reality' then facts are not necessary to form the basis of your belief.

In concept, but to believe a pepperoni pizza is a cat, doesn't change the pizza. Belief isn't just a concept, it's based on reality.

I heard a very similar argument from those who reject the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  angel
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« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2010, 03:36:02 PM »

I voted "none of the above" simply because science does not disprove religious beliefs. Science has other objectives.
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« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2010, 02:49:18 PM »

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so...  Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.
Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.
I wouldn't go that far. If you could go back in time and determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gospel story is false, would you still believe it?
In reality, for modern science to disprove our faith, it would have to somehow determine that there is no spiritual aspect to reality. I don't see that being possible, so we are right back to where we started. YAY!
Not at all.  The OP didn't ask about the sum total of our beliefs.  It asked whether science could cause us to question a belief.  And the question to which I was responding asked about any particular belief.  Those beliefs related to our physical existence are certainly falsifiable through science.  And as Heorhij mentions, science doesn't address spiritual matters.  Questions regarding Christ's humanity are reasonable questions to ask science to attempt to answer, but answers to those questions don't automatically imply falsified beliefs about his divinity.

It's certainly happened before.  I don't believe a global flood ever occurred as it's described in Genesis, for example.  Science has very convincingly ruled out that possibility.  The underlying theological beliefs remain intact, however.  Those whose religious beliefs rely too heavily on physical truths are bound to be disappointed.  That too has certainly happened before.
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« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2010, 02:59:42 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned,
Nothing?  Nothing is pretty absolute.  Where does the Church teach this?
the fact that God did not create death is the standard teaching of the Church ... I'd be interested in seeing where the Saints or hymns teach otherwise ...
I asked first.  Where does the Church teach that nothing died?  No plants?  No bacteria?  No nothing?
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« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2010, 04:56:17 PM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned,
Nothing?  Nothing is pretty absolute.  Where does the Church teach this?
the fact that God did not create death is the standard teaching of the Church ... I'd be interested in seeing where the Saints or hymns teach otherwise ...
I asked first.  Where does the Church teach that nothing died?  No plants?  No bacteria?  No nothing?

Moreover, where does the Church teach that the earth is ~6000 years old?
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« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2010, 05:02:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Science is merely the study of the economy of God operating in the vibrating material universe.  String theory is no more controversial than anything written by John of Damascus regarding the same concepts, and we should learn to live in harmony with each other.  Science should not make claims it can not itself support aside from theory, and our Faith should as is has for centuries, in fact embrace new understandings of God's economy through the Light of the Holy Spirit.  It is only since the Catholic Inquisition caused such a mess in the West that this rift began, but read the Church Fathers of Orthodoxy from the first century up until even recent times, and you will indeed find very intelligent discussions on these matters, no diatribes or superstitions or needless condemnations, but the harmony of love operating through faith.

Stay Blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2010, 05:25:44 PM »

There was a time, not very long ago, when "Science" absolutely believed that if something was not visible, it was not real.
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« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2010, 06:18:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Science is merely the study of the economy of God operating in the vibrating material universe.  String theory is no more controversial than anything written by John of Damascus regarding the same concepts, and we should learn to live in harmony with each other.  Science should not make claims it can not itself support aside from theory, and our Faith should as is has for centuries, in fact embrace new understandings of God's economy through the Light of the Holy Spirit.  It is only since the Catholic Inquisition caused such a mess in the West that this rift began, but read the Church Fathers of Orthodoxy from the first century up until even recent times, and you will indeed find very intelligent discussions on these matters, no diatribes or superstitions or needless condemnations, but the harmony of love operating through faith.

Stay Blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2010, 07:26:21 PM »


Nobody suspects the Spanish Inquisition!!! Wink

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« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2010, 07:34:11 PM »

There was a time, not very long ago, when "Science" absolutely believed that if something was not visible, it was not real.
It's funny how the word science has developed. It used to describe the knowledge of things in their causes (usally efficient, formal, material, and sometimes final), but now it is almost exclusively applied to sciences with empiricist presuppositions.
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« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2010, 10:25:50 AM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned,
Nothing?  Nothing is pretty absolute.  Where does the Church teach this?
the fact that God did not create death is the standard teaching of the Church ... I'd be interested in seeing where the Saints or hymns teach otherwise ...
I asked first.  Where does the Church teach that nothing died?  No plants?  No bacteria?  No nothing?

i provided a link for this, here it is again: http://oldbelieving.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/the-entire-creation-was-created-incorrupt/
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« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2010, 10:28:31 AM »

the Church teaches a young earth in which nothing died before man sinned,
Nothing?  Nothing is pretty absolute.  Where does the Church teach this?
the fact that God did not create death is the standard teaching of the Church ... I'd be interested in seeing where the Saints or hymns teach otherwise ...
I asked first.  Where does the Church teach that nothing died?  No plants?  No bacteria?  No nothing?

Moreover, where does the Church teach that the earth is ~6000 years old?

this link includes the teachings of the Fathers: http://oldbelieving.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/orthodoxy-and-creationism/

and this link tells about the Church's calendar which puts us at the year 7518 from the creation of the world: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era

contrary to what many ppl seem to think, the Church has a great deal to say about the proper understanding of Genesis.
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« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2010, 11:47:32 AM »

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Evolution
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« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2010, 12:13:07 PM »

Galileo said it best when he said, "The Bible teaches how to go to heaven not how the heavens go."

The church thought they had proof that the Sun circles the Earth from scripture. It took 500 years for the Catholics to admit that mistake.

Science and God can coexist just fine as long as we do not insist that we know as much as God because of the Bible.
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« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2010, 12:55:49 PM »

It's pretty much a moot point.  Anything that science is capable of disproving is not instrumental to our salvation.  Science deals with the physical world that God created.  All science does by debating the age of the world or whether or not the Earth orbits the Sun or vice versa is to expand our knowledge of things that we are capable of understanding.  Everything of theological importance deals with the soul and the world to come.  Science, being a discipline rooted in our flawed understanding of the world, cannot discuss these spiritual concepts because the scientific method is not suited to understand them.
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« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2010, 04:49:56 PM »

Quote from: Ortho_cat
so for you, seeing is believing?
Quote from: Iconodule
Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.

No.  Both of you are trying to equate the statement "My beliefs would be challenged," with the statement "I would abandon all my current beliefs."

Additionally, you shouldn't consider the concepts of faith and belief to be precise synonyms.  They aren't.  As a youngster, I believed in a literal global flood.  I no longer do, science having ruled out that possibility quite convincingly. My beliefs changed.  My faith?  It was actually strengthened along the way.

I'm sorry if your faith is challenged by modern science.  But don't assume everyone else's is.
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« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2010, 04:53:51 PM »

There was a time, not very long ago, when "Science" absolutely believed that if something was not visible, it was not real.
It's funny how the word science has developed. It used to describe the knowledge of things in their causes (usally efficient, formal, material, and sometimes final), but now it is almost exclusively applied to sciences with empiricist presuppositions.

Bingo.
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« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2010, 04:57:27 PM »

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so for you, seeing is believing?
Quote from: Iconodule
Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.

No.  Both of you are trying to equate the statement "My beliefs would be challenged," with the statement "I would abandon all my current beliefs."

Additionally, you shouldn't consider the concepts of faith and belief to be precise synonyms.  They aren't.  As a youngster, I believed in a literal global flood.  I no longer do, science having ruled out that possibility quite convincingly.

Which science? And what epistemological assumptions are you making to declare that this is "science"?

Quote
I'm sorry if your faith is challenged by modern science. 

No more than it is challenged by Epicureanism, Islam, Marxism, or other belief systems.
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« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2010, 05:01:47 PM »

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so for you, seeing is believing?
Quote from: Iconodule
Your real religion, or, perhaps, your meta-religion, is modern science then.

No.  Both of you are trying to equate the statement "My beliefs would be challenged," with the statement "I would abandon all my current beliefs."

Additionally, you shouldn't consider the concepts of faith and belief to be precise synonyms.  They aren't.  As a youngster, I believed in a literal global flood.  I no longer do, science having ruled out that possibility quite convincingly.

Which science? And what epistemological assumptions are you making to declare that this is "science"?

Quote
I'm sorry if your faith is challenged by modern science. 

No more than it is challenged by Epicureanism, Islam, Marxism, or other belief systems.
Iconodule, I am really glad that you are pursuing this line of thought. It is so often left out of the shallow "science" vs. "Faith" debate.
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« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2010, 05:11:46 PM »

... but now it is almost exclusively applied to sciences with empiricist presuppositions.
Bingo.
Presuppositions?  Have you actually worked in the sciences?  Have you actually observed how cutthroat the industry is?  Presuppositions are actually anathema in science.  Virtually every young scientist and grad student out there is itching for the chance to show why some common supposition is untrue and make a name for themselves.

What single presupposition are you referencing, if they are so widespread?
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« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2010, 05:13:27 PM »

Thanks, Papist.

And by the way, Chrevbel, the thread is titled "Science and Faith poll," so I think all the handwringing about how people misread the question is unreasonable.

You said this:

Is there any particular "belief" in Christianity that could be "disproven" by science?
I'd say so.  Suppose we perfected a technique for recording the light, originating from earth, that had reflected back from various heavenly bodies.  In looking at what's coming in from those bodies ~1000 light years from us, we could observe what went on during Christ's time.  Suppose that we could rule out all possibility, through exhaustive observation, of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion anywhere within the time frame we'd expect it.  

Given that, I'd be hard pressed to maintain my current beliefs.

I think it's clear from here that your distinction between "beliefs" and "faith" is meaningless in this context. The crucifixion is not some personal theological opinion but a central point of the faith.
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« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2010, 05:17:09 PM »

... but now it is almost exclusively applied to sciences with empiricist presuppositions.
Bingo.
Presuppositions?  Have you actually worked in the sciences?  Have you actually observed how cutthroat the industry is?  Presuppositions are actually anathema in science.  Virtually every young scientist and grad student out there is itching for the chance to show why some common supposition is untrue and make a name for themselves.

What single presupposition are you referencing, if they are so widespread?

No presuppositions, huh? Then the much-vaunted "scientific method" would be incapable of ascertaining anything. 
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« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2010, 05:27:46 PM »

I think it's clear from here that your distinction between "beliefs" and "faith" is meaningless in this context. The crucifixion is not some personal theological opinion but a central point of the faith.
Details about that faith is what I was referring to in my original reply.  Notice that I was talking about a hypothetical refutation of a simultaneous three-person crucifixion.  If science were to conclusively and convincingly rule that out, then yes, I would abandon any belief in a conversation that could not have occurred, for example.

Would realizing that this particular reference in scripture was erroneous somehow challenge your overarching faith?  That detail is not central to the faith.
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« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2010, 07:30:11 PM »

It really depends upon what it is that science "proves" in regard to God/faith. From my point of you once has to have both science and faith to be well balanced. Science can't explain everything, and neither can faith.
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« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2010, 08:16:14 PM »

  "No," Father Maximos replied emphatically.  "We need to clear certain misconceptions.  If certain statements in the Bible related to health or geology or history or whatever else came to be scientifically supported, fair enough.  But the Holy Bible is not a medical text that offers us guidelines about the health of the physical body.  It is not a biology primer or a book on geology or history for that matter.  The Holy Bible is purely a spiritual text that speaks about God's energy in the world.  If those parts of the Bible that deal with physical health, or with geology, or history are proven to scientifically false it should not have an iota of an effect on its therapeutic, spiritual significance."
  "Well-" Marina began saying in a skeptical tone.
  "My dear, as I have argued time and again, the essence of the Bible, its very meaning, is to heal us human beings from our psychic illnesses, from that which separates us from God.  Now, if three thousand years ago human wisdom knew about certain recipes for good bodily health, well and good.  But even if the opposite turned out to be true, again, well and good."
  "This is an important point to keep in mind," I suggested.  "A lot of scholars today focus exclusively on the scientific accuracy of the Bible and conclude that since it is replete with historical and scientific inaccuracies and contradictions it must be nothing more than folklore.  On the other extreme are fundamentalists who interpret everything in the Bible, such as the age of the planet, as literally true."
  "That is how both the rationalists and the fundamentalists fail to understand the spiritual meaning of sacred texts and the purpose for which they were written,"  Father Maximos responded.

 Excerpt from "Gifts of the Desert: The Forgotten Path of Christian Spirituality" by Kyriacos C. Markides Chapter 5 "A Different Hospital" pg 92

Father Maximos is actually Archbishop Athanasios of Limmasol, Cyprus who lived on Mt. Athos as a spiritual son of St. Paisios the New.  When he speaks on matters of the Orthodox Christian faith, I listen closely. 
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« Reply #74 on: November 24, 2010, 04:37:23 AM »

When he speaks on matters of the Orthodox Christian faith, I listen closely.
As will I now, based on that quote.  How incredibly well said!  Thank you for the reference.  Got any more?
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« Reply #75 on: November 24, 2010, 01:29:18 PM »

The question still stands: how is the "scientific method" capable of determining the truth of anything without making presuppositions?
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« Reply #76 on: November 24, 2010, 03:08:50 PM »

The question still stands: how is the "scientific method" capable of determining the truth of anything without making presuppositions?
Because it is subject to being replaced with a method demonstrably superior.  That's the exact antithesis of presupposition.
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« Reply #77 on: November 24, 2010, 03:09:56 PM »

The question still stands: how is the "scientific method" capable of determining the truth of anything without making presuppositions?
Because it is subject to being replaced with a method demonstrably superior.

Demonstrable how? By what criteria?
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« Reply #78 on: November 24, 2010, 03:19:09 PM »

What criteria would you propose?
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« Reply #79 on: November 24, 2010, 03:22:32 PM »

What criteria would you propose?

I'm asking you. 1. Why do you think the "scientific method" is a reliable methodology for apprehending natural phenomena? 2. What would convince you that a different method is superior? 3. How do you answer any of these questions without presuppositions?
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« Reply #80 on: November 24, 2010, 03:47:01 PM »

1.  Because it hasn't yet been supplanted by anything superior.

2.  I can't say a priori.  To do so, after all, would be a presupposition.

3.  Because I acknowledge that every one of my answers is subject to being replaced by a better one.  Why do you refuse to acknowledge that this is the precise opposite of presupposition?
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« Reply #81 on: November 24, 2010, 03:57:06 PM »

1.  Because it hasn't yet been supplanted by anything superior.

How do you know?

Quote
2.  I can't say a priori.  To do so, after all, would be a presupposition.

Then your answer to 1 is nonsensical.

Quote
3.  Because I acknowledge that every one of my answers is subject to being replaced by a better one.

How would you know if a given answer is better?

Quote
Why do you refuse to acknowledge that this is the precise opposite of presupposition?

Because your use of the words "superior" and "better" says otherwise.
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« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2010, 06:58:37 PM »

When he speaks on matters of the Orthodox Christian faith, I listen closely.
As will I now, based on that quote.  How incredibly well said!  Thank you for the reference.  Got any more?

 A million apologies; I just saw this.  Rather than risk copyright infringement yada yada yada, I wholeheartedly recommend Dr. Kyriacos Markides' two books The Mountain of Silence and the follow up, Gifts of the Desert.  His earlier books are representative of the time in his life when he was agnostic, or at least hostile towards Orthodox Christianity.   
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« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2010, 08:43:45 PM »

What criteria would you propose?

I'm asking you. 1. Why do you think the "scientific method" is a reliable methodology for apprehending natural phenomena? 2. What would convince you that a different method is superior? 3. How do you answer any of these questions without presuppositions?

Because it works and bears fruit, plain and simple. We see this with our eyes, and sense it with our senses. To deny this is to deny reality. If there is another method that works better, we should use that.
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« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2010, 09:27:06 AM »

What criteria would you propose?

I'm asking you. 1. Why do you think the "scientific method" is a reliable methodology for apprehending natural phenomena? 2. What would convince you that a different method is superior? 3. How do you answer any of these questions without presuppositions?

Because it works and bears fruit, plain and simple.

Ah, "the ends justifies the means." And what kind of "fruit" does it bear? Does it sanctify? Does it enlighten? Does it give us saints? No, but who cares about that - it gives us lots of shiny stuff. Of course, there is other "fruit" which you'd rather ignore, as exemplified in Hiroshima, Bhopal, Chernobyl, etc.

Quote
We see this with our eyes, and sense it with our senses.

The Christian worldview is not based on sense alone, nor is it based on a concept of matter and spirit as two completely independent principles.

Quote
If there is another method that works better, we should use that.

And what would your criteria be for working "better"?

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« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2010, 01:17:49 PM »

When he speaks on matters of the Orthodox Christian faith, I listen closely.
As will I now, based on that quote.  How incredibly well said!  Thank you for the reference.  Got any more?

 A million apologies; I just saw this.  Rather than risk copyright infringement yada yada yada, I wholeheartedly recommend Dr. Kyriacos Markides' two books The Mountain of Silence and the follow up, Gifts of the Desert.  His earlier books are representative of the time in his life when he was agnostic, or at least hostile towards Orthodox Christianity.   

ah the Mountain of Silence -- you mean that book where the author acknowledges that the Church has traditionally interpreted Genesis literally?!
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« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2010, 03:54:49 PM »

What criteria would you propose?

I'm asking you. 1. Why do you think the "scientific method" is a reliable methodology for apprehending natural phenomena? 2. What would convince you that a different method is superior? 3. How do you answer any of these questions without presuppositions?

Because it works and bears fruit, plain and simple.

Ah, "the ends justifies the means." And what kind of "fruit" does it bear? Does it sanctify? Does it enlighten? Does it give us saints? No, but who cares about that - it gives us lots of shiny stuff. Of course, there is other "fruit" which you'd rather ignore, as exemplified in Hiroshima, Bhopal, Chernobyl, etc.

It creates progress, objective results. It matters not if these results are 'good' or 'bad', however you decide to define those terms, but it advances knowledge and understanding. Now you might not like the kind of knowledge and understanding it advances, but you have to acknowledge that it advances it nonetheless and therefore it accomplishes its goal.

Quote
Quote
If there is another method that works better, we should use that.

And what would your criteria be for working "better"?

That progress is obtained quicker or more efficiently with similar accuracy and precision, or just as quick and efficient with more accuracy and precision. Or, ideally, an improvement in all these qualities.

The only other method I'm aware of that's currently use are mathematical methodologies in mathematical physics, it's useful for establishing firmer theoretical foundations for physics, but moves too slowly to keep up with experimentation so is not truly a replacement for the scientific method in that theoretical physics, merely a tool to give us greater confidence in the results (often decades later).
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« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2010, 04:21:01 PM »

What criteria would you propose?

I'm asking you. 1. Why do you think the "scientific method" is a reliable methodology for apprehending natural phenomena? 2. What would convince you that a different method is superior? 3. How do you answer any of these questions without presuppositions?

Because it works and bears fruit, plain and simple.

Ah, "the ends justifies the means." And what kind of "fruit" does it bear? Does it sanctify? Does it enlighten? Does it give us saints? No, but who cares about that - it gives us lots of shiny stuff. Of course, there is other "fruit" which you'd rather ignore, as exemplified in Hiroshima, Bhopal, Chernobyl, etc.

It creates progress, objective results. It matters not if these results are 'good' or 'bad', however you decide to define those terms, but it advances knowledge and understanding. Now you might not like the kind of knowledge and understanding it advances, but you have to acknowledge that it advances it nonetheless and therefore it accomplishes its goal.

Thank you Dr. Mengele. You can step out of the witness box.

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« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2010, 05:20:53 PM »

Thank you Dr. Mengele. You can step out of the witness box.
Why do you use the internet?  It pretty clearly is the result of advances in several sciences.  Off the top of my head, it relies on: computer science, mathematics, electrical engineering, optics, and chemistry.
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« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2010, 05:29:19 PM »

Thank you Dr. Mengele. You can step out of the witness box.
Why do you use the internet?  It pretty clearly is the result of advances in several sciences.  Off the top of my head, it relies on: computer science, mathematics, electrical engineering, optics, and chemistry.
That I do not take science as my master does not forbid me from taking it as my servant.
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« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2010, 07:51:45 PM »

Thank you Dr. Mengele. You can step out of the witness box.
Why do you use the internet?  It pretty clearly is the result of advances in several sciences.  Off the top of my head, it relies on: computer science, mathematics, electrical engineering, optics, and chemistry.
That I do not take science as my master does not forbid me from taking it as my servant.

booyah!
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« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2010, 10:54:22 PM »

Comparing GiC to Dr Mengele simply because he supports the use of the scientific method seems like a pretty egregious ad hominem to me. Sad
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« Reply #92 on: January 01, 2012, 01:48:45 PM »

Recently, St. Tikhon's press reprinted St. Nikolai of Zica's essay The Universe as Signs and Symbols. I've ordered it, but haven't received it in the mail yet, so I can't personally comment on it, though from the description it also appears to include an outline of Orthodox natural philosophy.

Have you had a chance to read this yet? I have it on my to-buy list and was wondering how it was...
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« Reply #93 on: January 01, 2012, 06:57:23 PM »

Recently, St. Tikhon's press reprinted St. Nikolai of Zica's essay The Universe as Signs and Symbols. I've ordered it, but haven't received it in the mail yet, so I can't personally comment on it, though from the description it also appears to include an outline of Orthodox natural philosophy.

Have you had a chance to read this yet? I have it on my to-buy list and was wondering how it was...

Yes, I put up some quotes from it somewhere around here. It's very short but worthwhile.
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« Reply #94 on: January 01, 2012, 07:02:15 PM »

Recently, St. Tikhon's press reprinted St. Nikolai of Zica's essay The Universe as Signs and Symbols. I've ordered it, but haven't received it in the mail yet, so I can't personally comment on it, though from the description it also appears to include an outline of Orthodox natural philosophy.

Have you had a chance to read this yet? I have it on my to-buy list and was wondering how it was...

Yes, I put up some quotes from it somewhere around here. It's very short but worthwhile.

Thanks, I did a search and think I found them... I'll have to make sure it doesn't get bumped down the list Smiley
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