Albanian Youth Urinate of Church Ruins

[Orthodoc]

Scenes of ethnic Albanian barbarianism in Prizren



http://news.serbianunity.net/



An Ethnic Albanian youth uses his mobile telephone to take a picture of his friend taking a leak in the St. George church in the southern Kosovo town of Prizren, Monday, March 22, 2004. The church was set on fire and heavily damaged during an outbreak of Albanian violence in Kosovo.


Orthodoc

[erracht]

What can I say? It's just a disaster in Kosovo. They're desecrating (sp?) ancient treasures of faith and as my people are now largely a minority there, they're pretty weak in comparison. How long will it last? I don't know, maybe until the people as a whole repent for sins and apostasy?

[Canmak]

Personally I am not a fan of the Serbs as a political group (not talking about the people) nor a fan of the Serbian Orthodox Church.....and its stance towards the Macedonian Orthodox Church.

I think God is letting the Serb Church know that belonging to the WCC is wrong, the stand it has against the Macedonian Church is wrong, and the silence it had during the last 10 years in the Former Yugoslavia during the war was wrong.


The monastaries and churches burn in the religous heartland of the Serbs, even the monastary on MT.Athos burnt.......a sign from god?  I think it is........time to rethink things in the Serbian Church instead of going after someone else's religous heartland  IE OHRID

[Αριστοκλής]

Personally I am not a fan of the Serbs as a political group (not talking about the people) nor a fan of the Serbian Orthodox Church.....and its stance towards the Macedonian Orthodox Church.

Well, Canmak/Jimmy (what is your baptismal name?), I can understand your feelings without agreeing with them. I seem to recall that not only the Serbian Orthodox Church, but all Orthodox Churches, view the "Macedonian Orthodox Church" the same. Hence, this church (as well as the Montenegrin Orthodox Church), forgive me, seems open to the charge of phyletism - or at seems to be.
Your profile indicates you were baptised in the "Orthodox faith" as you say; a better wording would probably be in the Serbian Orthodox Church, no?

I think God is letting the Serb Church know that belonging to the WCC is wrong, the stand it has against the Macedonian Church is wrong, and the silence it had during the last 10 years in the Former Yugoslavia during the war was wrong.

The monastaries and churches burn in the religous heartland of the Serbs, even the monastary on MT.Athos burnt.......a sign from god?  I think it is........time to rethink things in the Serbian Church instead of going after someone else's religous heartland  IE OHRID

Somehow, I just don't think the Lord works in this fashion. And when the Albanians Muslims in Macedonia begin (or continue) to cause problems there, I will be concerned for the Orthodox (indeed for everyone) in Macedonia and not look for divine retribution in their plight. Finding the failings of men will be enough.

Welcome to the forum.  Where do you worship now?

Demetri

[Seraphim Reeves]

Canmark,

Following the lesson of the book of Job, I'm hesitant about claims of divine punishment.  There is a lot in this life, if we try to fit it within the matrix of "cause and effect", "crime and divine punishment", just doesn't add up.  I have a hard time seeing what a raped and murdered twelve year old found in some ditch ever did to deserve that fate, why this person is born rich, why that one is born poor, etc.  Life, taken on it's face is fundamentally absurd most of the time.

Rather, I would simply hope everything is taken as an opportunity for repentence, and a test of faith - faith that despite appearances, all things are in the hands of God Who is making sense of them where I cannot.

Are their sinful Serbs?  I'm sure there are.  But God knows all too well I've done at least as many bad things as most Serbs have - yet the Churches near me are not up in flames, I have sufficient employment, and my wife is not afraid of being raped by barbarians if she puts her foot outside the door.

Maybe on the last day I'll find out that this was a punishment against the Serbs...but if I do, I suspect I will also find out (paradoxically) it is also because as a nation, God loves the Serbs and that He perhaps punishes those Who He loves best.  Who can say?  I'd rather not guess, lest I fall under the malediction of Job's false friends, who falsely speculated about his misery.

Seraphim

[Anastasios]

Hey Seraphim,

I recently asked another poster not to change the subject lines within a thread unless absolutely necessary.  Could you also please follow this policy as some of our users find it confusing.

Thanks!

anastasios

[Canmak]

My baptismal name is Dimitar, I do not go by it and never will.

I seem to recall that not only the Serbian Orthodox Church, but all Orthodox Churches, view the "Macedonian Orthodox Church" the same

I wonder why?  I bet you know why, It has nothing to do with religion though.......alot to do with politics don't you think.

a better wording would probably be in the Serbian Orthodox Church, no?

You are absolutely right, done only for the reason that the Macedonian Church was still not yet built in my community.

Welcome to the forum.  Where do you worship now?

Sv. Nikola (St. Nicholas) Macedonian Orthodox Church  (in Windsor Ontario)

[prodromos]

I bet you know why, It has nothing to do with religion though.......alot to do with politics don't you think.

Absolutely! Macedonian (Serb Macedonian) politics.

The "Macedonian" Orthodox church is simply a tool used by the government to help create a national conciousness that did not previously exist prior to the end of the second world war. The MOC has nothing to do with religion which is why no other Orthodox church recognises it.

John.

[Αριστοκλής]

Absolutely! Macedonian (Serb Macedonian) politics.

The "Macedonian" Orthodox church is simply a tool used by the government to help create a national conciousness that did not previously exist prior to the end of the second world war. The MOC has nothing to do with religion which is why no other Orthodox church recognises it.

John.

I appreciate the perspective (true at that) of one who lives in the REAL Makedonia  

Demetri (who still has family in Thessaloniki)

[cizinec]

Canmak,

Since this is my first posting on this forum I will try to be nice.  This is a copy of a reply to a similar statement on another forum.

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat quagmire. There were and are plenty of evil Croats who committed crimes against humanity, just like some Serbs did. Why NATO singled out the Serbs for judgment has more to do with P.R. than reality.

In any event, the desecration of a church is wrong. The forced removal of people from their homes is wrong. The destruction of art because of the ethnic identity of its author is wrong. An infant doesn’t know if it’s a Croat, Serb, Albanian, Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim, Pagan, or atheist. An infant knows when it’s cold and hungry. I pray for anyone who thinks that the infant is getting what it deserves because of perceived collective guilt.

Many of these people have suffered. Many are innocent of the crimes for which you have declared them collectively guilty and declared the judgment fitting. Some even fought against Milosevic and his regime. May I remind you that the Serbs defeated Milosevic, not NATO. (Before you claim this was so because of the bombing, most went to Belgrade because he lost a democratic election and refused to step down). The same can’t be said of other nationalities and their prime belligerents.

I should also remind you that last month Metropolitan Amfilohije stood as a shield in front of a Mosque in Belgrade to stop a crowd from burning it down. It was at his behest that the firefighters and police were able to keep the mosque from being completely destroyed. Intervention from the Serbian Patriarchate such as this has been common throughout the recent conflicts in the Balkans. Anyone who has told you differently is misinformed.

Before you make statements about what someone did or didn’t say when the materials are in the public domain, please check them. Don’t just blindly trust the Washington Post. Look for yourself and see what Patriarch Pavle has been saying all along.

    quote:
    February 15, 1992
    While lamenting those closest to us by faith and blood, for all the hardship that came upon them, destroyed homes, churches, irretrievable destroyed treasures of historical and cultural significance, we lament the Croatian people also, for their misfortune and suffering as well as the destruction of their property and churches, their cultural and historical monuments, knowing that had we been better Christians and better men, this disaster could have bypassed us.

    I appeal to you all, brothers and sisters, to spend this following week in fasting, in humility of heart, in prayer and repentance, that our conscience and mind at least be awakened from these tragedies, so that we see the teaching of the Gospel that it is not terrible to die for the sake of God's righteousness, but it is terrible to die for the sake of sin, not seeing and feeling its horror and the need for repentance, the correction of our lives, the return to God's way, the way of humanity, justice and truth.

Petitions composed by Patriarch Pavle
for inclusion in all services:

    quote:
    At the Great Litany:

    "For the mercy of God for us, His unworthy servants, to keep us all from hatred and evil deeds, to implant in us unselfish love, whereby all may recognize that we are disciples of Christ and people of God, as were our saintly ancestors, so that we may always know to ally ourselves with the truth and justice of the Heavenly Kingdom, let us pray to the Lord."

    "For all those who committed injustice against their neighbor, whether they saddened the poor or spilled innocent blood, or returned hatred with hatred, that God grant them repentance, enlighten their minds and hearts, and illumine their souls with holy love even toward their enemies, let us pray to the Lord.

    Litany of Fervent Supplications:

    "O Lord, how many are the foes who war against us and say: 'There is no help for them from God or from man.' Lord, reach out Thy hand to us that we remain Thy people, both in faith and in works. If we must suffer, may it be on the road to Thy justice and Thy truth, and not because of our injustice or hatred toward anyone. Let us all say fervently, Lord have mercy."

    "Again we pray to God, the Savior of all men, even for our enemies, that the Lord who loves mankind turn them away from violence against our Orthodox people; that they not destroy our holy temples and graves, that they not kill our children and persecute our people, but that they also find the road to repentance, justice and salvation. Let us all say fervently, Lord have mercy."

These quotes are only a few of hundreds. Other quotes are more explicit than these. They are easily found. Please, don't ignore the words from someone and then accuse the same person of being silent.  Ignorance is not an excuse for your condemnation of a church and its patriarch.

I would also like to point out the danger in the "what goes around comes around" justification of doing something or partially excusing something that is glaringly immoral. The danger is that what goes around may just come around to you.

I have heard more than a few people state that 9/11 was God's judgment for NATO's role in bombing civilians in Yugoslavia (especially in, of all places, Vojvodina - my goodness, what was the purpose?). I don't believe it, but if you believe that what's happening in Serbia is because of evil there and it is "God's judgement", then perhaps that  was because of evil here.

[Canmak]

No offense but there has been a Macedonian Consciousness alot longer then the TITO era as Greeks so like to claim.  You are saying that the Macedonians are not a true orthodox church....but yet your forget about Ohrid......As far as I know wasn't the Greek Church led at one point by a Mason.........aren't masons against the orthodox faith.....but yet they are still Orthodox....wasn't it this Mason that made the greeks change there christmas date  How about the Serbian Orthodox Church in BiH , hiding war criminals......still orthodox....The faith of the people in Macedonia is there, but yet its orthodox neighbours try to deny them......I don't understand why.......YOU ALL PREACH RIGHTOUSNESS HERE ON THIS FORUM, YOU ALL PREACH THE ORTHODOX WAY BUT WHY IS IT THAT ORTHODOX NATIONAL CHURCHES TURN ON THEMSELVES I told you all I would offend some of you, that because I am new to the faith.....and still do not understand it like most of you....but I do not understand how these churches can turn against fellow orthodox people.......Ohrid was the archbishopric in Macedonia......it lost that seat because of Muslim rulers..........do muslims have say now in the Orthodox faith.....no they don't, Ohrid is the mother church of the Serbs, Ohrid falls in Macedonia.......its a Macedonian Church, it is controlled by the Macedonia Orthodox Church......so you tell me how a daughter church can be the mother church IE THE SERBS TRYING TO BE THE MOTHER CHURCH OF OHRID.

I do not want to discuss the politics.......I came here to learn about the faith........I tend to find a major problem in Orthodoxy is ethnonational politics that every one assosciates with the faith....myself included.....is it our downfall.....it could be when we try to stab each other in the back.

Don't give me this shit, I am ethnically Macedonian......there has been a Macedonian Church before the times of Tito.......way before his time.  Yet, its cause of the actions of the Serbs and Greeks that the Macedonian Orthodox Church is not accepted into the World Orthodox Community.


I don't agree with the Serb church.......thats my opinion and there churches are burning.........I don't agree with the greek church celebrating christmas on the 25th.......not after I found out it was cause of a Mason that they changed there christmas date.  I guess I am a old calenderist.......I have seen that term on this forum and I guess I fall into that sect of orthodoxy.


As I have stated before, I am new to the faith.....meaning I just recently started going to church, just started learning about it...I will offend people with my views no doubt about it....as I expect to get offended by someothers..........all I ask for is patience from all of you as I try to bite my tongue or maybe I should say fingers when I feel like typing something that might offend you all

[TomS]

Time for my often used quote to the new Orthodox: If you want perfection in any Church existing on this planet - you are out of luck. It was only perfect on this world when it existed in the physical body of the Man named Jesus.

This world is the domain of the Evil One. He rules here.

[prodromos]

No offense but there has been a Macedonian Consciousness alot longer then the TITO era as Greeks so like to claim.

Are you talking about during the first world war when the Bulgarians were claiming to be the true Macedonians and were laying claim to northern Greece? Their propaganda did not go very far then because they lacked the financial backing and a lot more people knew history. Tito's efforts were much more successful because he had the backing of the Soviet Union and people in the most influencial countries did not know history.

People such as yourself are the result of that campaign

John.

[countrymouse]

Canmark,

Following the lesson of the book of Job, I'm hesitant about claims of divine punishment.  There is a lot in this life, if we try to fit it within the matrix of "cause and effect", "crime and divine punishment", just doesn't add up.  I have a hard time seeing what a raped and murdered twelve year old found in some ditch ever did to deserve that fate, why this person is born rich, why that one is born poor, etc.  Life, taken on it's face is fundamentally absurd most of the time.

Rather, I would simply hope everything is taken as an opportunity for repentence, and a test of faith - faith that despite appearances, all things are in the hands of God Who is making sense of them where I cannot.

Are their sinful Serbs?  I'm sure there are.  But God knows all too well I've done at least as many bad things as most Serbs have - yet the Churches near me are not up in flames, I have sufficient employment, and my wife is not afraid of being raped by barbarians if she puts her foot outside the door.

Maybe on the last day I'll find out that this was a punishment against the Serbs...but if I do, I suspect I will also find out (paradoxically) it is also because as a nation, God loves the Serbs and that He perhaps punishes those Who He loves best.  Who can say?  I'd rather not guess, lest I fall under the malediction of Job's false friends, who falsely speculated about his misery.

Seraphim

Since this bears repeating I thought I'd copy and paste it, with a brief response (by way of support).  When others fall into misfortune, it's foolish to speculate why or assume that it's a punishment from God.  The Scriptures do say that, as a loving Father, He chastises (disciplines) His children, for which we all should be grateful.  However, like Job, and like the blind man Jesus healed who was born blind so that God would be glorified in the healing, unless God lets us in on what He's doing, we don't know!!!  Best, IMO, we should pray for our fellow Christians in their trial and look to ourselves lest we fall into the sin of false accusation.

[cizinec]

"How about the Serbian Orthodox Church in BiH , hiding war criminals"

Do you have any evidence of this?  If so, I and the rest of the world would like to see it.  If you are referring to the raid that left a priest and his son in a coma, there is an investigation by the UN to determine what went wrong and whether legal action should be taken against the soldiers.  

I'm not asking for what you think or what you believe.  This is an accusation of a crime.  What evidence do you have?  Don't tell me "everybody knows" that it's true.  Everyone may know something completely farcical is true.

I understand what the world thinks about the Serbian Orthodox Church and I don't care.  I look for facts, not accusations.  

Concerning Ohrid, founded by the disciples of St. Methodius, the Bishop of Brno, I suppose you could claim that Brno is the mother church of Ohrid.  Of course, the Latins destroyed that church, which was reestablished by a Latin Moravian priest convert to Orthodoxy, St. Gorazd.  He was converted by the Serbian Orthodox Church.  Which makes the Serbian Orthodox Church the mother of its Grandmother and the Grandmother and child of Ohrid and . . . . I'm my own grandpa.  

The history of the Orthodox churches is too complicated to make such simplistic statements as "Kiev is the mother of all Eastern Christian."  That's a claim made by the head of the Ukrainian Catholics.  It's overly simplistic nonsense.  There is some truth to his evidence, but no justification for the conclusion.

The same is true of anyone claiming Ohrid is "above and older than" the Serbian Church.  Their histories are far too integrated and separate for such a statement.

My tone may sound less than kind and for that I apologize.  I think you should take some time and read more about the Serbian Orthodox Church and their side of the story before you just say, "I don't agree with the Serb church."  

With what do you not agree?  If it is concerning the Macedonian issue only, then you should disagree with them on that issue.  Discuss that issue.  Don't say, "Hah! Let the Serb churches and houses burn because they won't give the Macedonians what they want!"  That's not very Orthodox.  Patience, study and prayer is the way.  Look for the truth, not rash judgments.  These are complicated issues without simple answers.  If you are looking for quick and easy, you can find it, but you'll have to be willing to accept something less than the truth.

I hope you will look and you will put away your prejudices long enough to see a bigger picture.

[countrymouse]

Concerning Ohrid, founded by the disciples of St. Methodius, the Bishop of Brno, I suppose you could claim that Brno is the mother church of Ohrid.  Of course, the Latins destroyed that church, which was reestablished by a Latin Moravian priest convert to Orthodoxy, St. Gorazd.  He was converted by the Serbian Orthodox Church.  Which makes the Serbian Orthodox Church the mother of its Grandmother and the Grandmother and child of Ohrid and . . . . I'm my own grandpa.  

Tee hee, we can complicate that even further since the Moravians trace their roots back to the Orthdox Church!  

[Brendan03]

Ah, another lovely Balkan discussion.

The relationship, or lack thereof, between the Serbian Church and the church in Macedonia is very much regrettable and is the product of history and nothing else.  

The role of the churches in the Balkans and their histories and lineages is quite complex and probably beyond the understanding of most, and ethnic politics seems to play a big role.

For those who vilify the Serbs, please remember that the Croats were the ones who had a fascist leader in power until a few years ago, they were the ones who unilaterally seceded from Yugoslavia with the insolent backing of the Germans (was anyone really surprised by that, given the historically cosy relationship between Croatia and its German/Austrian masters to the North?), and they were the ones who also committed massive war crimes in BiH (see:  Mostar).  As for the Catholic Church, it picked a fine time to canonize Cardinal Stepinac, the Croatian Catholic prelate who supported the WWII fascist regime in Croatia that set up concentration camps for Serbs and made Serbs wear a "P" on their clothing for "Pravoslavny" (ie, Orthodox).  But of course the American media doesn't understand any of this, so they didn't explain it to anyone, and instead took the convenient side of the more "Western" of the main antagonists, and demonized the other side.  Were there rotten Serbs in that war?  Heck yes!  Was Milosevic a mad Dictator?  Yes!  But so was Tudjman, for Pete's sake, he no more deserved our support than did Adolph Hitler!

Brendan

[Αριστοκλής]

My baptismal name is Dimitar, I do not go by it and never will.

But Canmak, Dimitar is a GREAT name!

Demetri (who also answers to: Demetrios, Demetrius, Demetru, Dmitri, Dimitriou, and now...Dimitar!)  

[ilyazhito]

This is terrible desecration!
Let's try not to do this anywhere else.

[Xenia1918]

Which Albanians are doing this? Albania is 70% Muslim, 20% Orthodox and 10% Roman Catholic

[Cognomen]

Which Albanians are doing this? Albania is 70% Muslim, 20% Orthodox and 10% Roman Catholic

Right, but those stats are for Albanians in Albania, not Albanians in Kosovo (almost none are Orthodox).  Also, most Muslims in Albania are not practicing.

[Xenia1918]

Which Albanians are doing this? Albania is 70% Muslim, 20% Orthodox and 10% Roman Catholic

Right, but those stats are for Albanians in Albania, not Albanians in Kosovo (almost none are Orthodox).  Also, most Muslims in Albania are not practicing.

OK, thanks!

[Alveus Lacuna]

Also, this thread is about seven years old.

[yeshuaisiam]

It takes real BIG men to attack helpless structures.

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