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Author Topic: Blasphemous and Heretical Musings of a Self-Styled Deity Claiming Unity of Belief Between Christianity and Hinduism  (Read 86639 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1530 on: January 04, 2011, 07:09:33 AM »

Dattaswami- It is rude to come to an Orthodox Christian forum and show no interest in discussing or learning about Orthodox Christianity. That is not godlike behavior, but childish and brash behavior. As long as you are willfully ignorant of what we believe, why should we respect your "divine knowledge"?
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« Reply #1531 on: January 04, 2011, 07:14:39 AM »

Dattaswami- It is rude to come to an Orthodox Christian forum and show no interest in discussing or learning about Orthodox Christianity. That is not godlike behavior, but childish and brash behavior. As long as you are willfully ignorant of what we believe, why should we respect your "divine knowledge"?
I agree tradition to be respected. But oneness of God and His divine knowledge should not be forgotten. In the traditional way of worship, devotees approach God through rituals which are only theory. And there are fixed way to doing it. Offcourse it is to be appreciated since it gives a chance to low level devotees to maintain their devotion at that level without deterioriating further. But one has to grow from this fundamental steps to further. The further step involves the listening to the divine knowledge from God directly and clarifying the doubts from Him. When the knowledge is complete and all your spiritual doubts are clarified then you will enter into the next pahse which is the direct practical service to God.

Without practical service God cannot be pleased. The outcome of pleasure of GOd is the salvation.

You are in this world for a purpose, the sole purpose is to please God through practical service. Your rituals etc carries very little value infront of God. God see the practical love to Him.
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« Reply #1532 on: January 04, 2011, 07:21:07 AM »

Dattaswami- It is rude to come to an Orthodox Christian forum and show no interest in discussing or learning about Orthodox Christianity. That is not godlike behavior, but childish and brash behavior. As long as you are willfully ignorant of what we believe, why should we respect your "divine knowledge"?
I agree tradition to be respected. But oneness of God and His divine knowledge should not be forgotten. In the traditional way of worship, devotees approach God through rituals which are only theory. And there are fixed way to doing it. Offcourse it is to be appreciated since it gives a chance to low level devotees to maintain their devotion at that level without deterioriating further. But one has to grow from this fundamental steps to further. The further step involves the listening to the divine knowledge from God directly and clarifying the doubts from Him. When the knowledge is complete and all your spiritual doubts are clarified then you will enter into the next pahse which is the direct practical service to God.

Without practical service God cannot be pleased. The outcome of pleasure of GOd is the salvation.

You are in this world for a purpose, the sole purpose is to please God through practical service. Your rituals etc carries very little value infront of God. God see the practical love to Him.

Dattaswami- You should learn about Orthodox Christianity, instead of posting more answers that prove your ignorance.
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« Reply #1533 on: January 04, 2011, 10:32:05 AM »

Dattaswami- It is rude to come to an Orthodox Christian forum and show no interest in discussing or learning about Orthodox Christianity. That is not godlike behavior, but childish and brash behavior. As long as you are willfully ignorant of what we believe, why should we respect your "divine knowledge"?
I agree tradition to be respected. But oneness of God and His divine knowledge should not be forgotten. In the traditional way of worship, devotees approach God through rituals which are only theory. And there are fixed way to doing it. Offcourse it is to be appreciated since it gives a chance to low level devotees to maintain their devotion at that level without deterioriating further. But one has to grow from this fundamental steps to further. The further step involves the listening to the divine knowledge from God directly and clarifying the doubts from Him. When the knowledge is complete and all your spiritual doubts are clarified then you will enter into the next pahse which is the direct practical service to God.

Without practical service God cannot be pleased. The outcome of pleasure of GOd is the salvation.

You are in this world for a purpose, the sole purpose is to please God through practical service. Your rituals etc carries very little value infront of God. God see the practical love to Him.

Dattaswami- You should learn about Orthodox Christianity, instead of posting more answers that prove your ignorance.

Generally rituals based worship is good, but it is not final. After doing such ritual based worship for some time, one shall search out for God and His divine knowledge.
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« Reply #1534 on: January 04, 2011, 12:27:39 PM »

Generally rituals based worship is good, but it is not final.
In what way, and to what degree, do you think the Orthodox believe our worship is final?
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« Reply #1535 on: January 04, 2011, 12:53:29 PM »

Generally rituals based worship is good, but it is not final.
In what way, and to what degree, do you think the Orthodox believe our worship is final?
How many paragraphs do you think it will take Venu to provide a non-answer?  I think I'm going to start a betting pool.  Grin
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« Reply #1536 on: January 04, 2011, 04:23:17 PM »

How many paragraphs do you think it will take Venu to provide a non-answer?  I think I'm going to start a betting pool.  Grin
Count me in.  I'll take six paragraphs.
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« Reply #1537 on: January 04, 2011, 05:48:10 PM »

Dattaswami- It is rude to come to an Orthodox Christian forum and show no interest in discussing or learning about Orthodox Christianity. That is not godlike behavior, but childish and brash behavior. As long as you are willfully ignorant of what we believe, why should we respect your "divine knowledge"?
I agree tradition to be respected. But oneness of God and His divine knowledge should not be forgotten. In the traditional way of worship, devotees approach God through rituals which are only theory. And there are fixed way to doing it. Offcourse it is to be appreciated since it gives a chance to low level devotees to maintain their devotion at that level without deterioriating further. But one has to grow from this fundamental steps to further. The further step involves the listening to the divine knowledge from God directly and clarifying the doubts from Him. When the knowledge is complete and all your spiritual doubts are clarified then you will enter into the next pahse which is the direct practical service to God.

Without practical service God cannot be pleased. The outcome of pleasure of GOd is the salvation.

You are in this world for a purpose, the sole purpose is to please God through practical service. Your rituals etc carries very little value infront of God. God see the practical love to Him.

Dattaswami- You should learn about Orthodox Christianity, instead of posting more answers that prove your ignorance.

Generally rituals based worship is good, but it is not final. After doing such ritual based worship for some time, one shall search out for God and His divine knowledge.

You know nothing about Orthodox Christian worship. You are ignorant of its character, significance, theology, spirituality, etc. So your opinion about it is both false and meaningless.
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« Reply #1538 on: January 05, 2011, 05:49:35 AM »

How many paragraphs do you think it will take Venu to provide a non-answer?  I think I'm going to start a betting pool.  Grin
Count me in.  I'll take six paragraphs.

I think the winner of that pool should use the winnings to send Datta a copy of this:



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« Reply #1539 on: January 05, 2011, 06:18:45 AM »

Indian inclusivism, as defined by Roman Catholic indologist Paul Hacker, pretends that non-Indian ideas were the same as Indian ones, while in fact considering them to be somewhat inferior, and needing to be completed by the Indian concept. Also, no proves are being established for these claims of being the same.

Looks like this is exactly what our friend dattaswami is doing here.

Anyway, the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. And whereas Orthodoxy is open to all cultures, it often does have to reject doctrines and teachings. Of course, when an Indian comes and says "Hey, it's the same", he perceives it as hostile when we answer "No, it is not" - because we are resisting his strategy of mental/cultural conquest. But we are resisting Hinduism neither for own ego, nor because of hatred or dislike, but because Orthodoxy is the way out of this world's fallenness, back to the state in which God wants us to be. And that really is quitte different from the big nothing.

So, dattaswami, and any Hinuds reading this, if you ever want to stop pursuing the big nothing, and instead pursue true existence, turn to Christ, the tree of life which grows from the virgin's womb.
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« Reply #1540 on: January 05, 2011, 07:01:23 AM »

Indian inclusivism, as defined by Roman Catholic indologist Paul Hacker, pretends that non-Indian ideas were the same as Indian ones, while in fact considering them to be somewhat inferior, and needing to be completed by the Indian concept. Also, no proves are being established for these claims of being the same.

Looks like this is exactly what our friend dattaswami is doing here.

Anyway, the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. And whereas Orthodoxy is open to all cultures, it often does have to reject doctrines and teachings. Of course, when an Indian comes and says "Hey, it's the same", he perceives it as hostile when we answer "No, it is not" - because we are resisting his strategy of mental/cultural conquest. But we are resisting Hinduism neither for own ego, nor because of hatred or dislike, but because Orthodoxy is the way out of this world's fallenness, back to the state in which God wants us to be. And that really is quitte different from the big nothing.

So, dattaswami, and any Hinuds reading this, if you ever want to stop pursuing the big nothing, and instead pursue true existence, turn to Christ, the tree of life which grows from the virgin's womb.

No doubt Christ is the only path. Who is Christ? Christ is GOd. Christ is impartial and listens the prayer and love of His dearest devotees. When His dearest devotees want to meet Him, touch Him, hear Him and want to co-live with Him, He cannot avoid their intense wish, hence He comes down in human form to fulfil the desires of such real devotees irresective of their religion, caste, creed, language, country, whether belongs to orthodox or non-orthodox etc etc.

He is the only path. Becasue the Father in heaven is invisible, and only the Son is visible here. Son of God is the one to be worshiped. Christ is the Son of God, and He comes in human form in every generation. ONly a visible GOd can fulfil your wishes of serving Him. He is 'Immanueal' meaning a God who comes to stay with us and guide us through the divine knoweldge. Our God Christ is not a dead God, He is a living GOd amidst us. A God who can speak to us, a God who can listen us, a God whom we can touch....
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« Reply #1541 on: January 05, 2011, 07:08:36 AM »

Dattaswami- It is rude to come to an Orthodox Christian forum and show no interest in discussing or learning about Orthodox Christianity. That is not godlike behavior, but childish and brash behavior. As long as you are willfully ignorant of what we believe, why should we respect your "divine knowledge"?
I agree tradition to be respected. But oneness of God and His divine knowledge should not be forgotten. In the traditional way of worship, devotees approach God through rituals which are only theory. And there are fixed way to doing it. Offcourse it is to be appreciated since it gives a chance to low level devotees to maintain their devotion at that level without deterioriating further. But one has to grow from this fundamental steps to further. The further step involves the listening to the divine knowledge from God directly and clarifying the doubts from Him. When the knowledge is complete and all your spiritual doubts are clarified then you will enter into the next pahse which is the direct practical service to God.

Without practical service God cannot be pleased. The outcome of pleasure of GOd is the salvation.

You are in this world for a purpose, the sole purpose is to please God through practical service. Your rituals etc carries very little value infront of God. God see the practical love to Him.

Dattaswami- You should learn about Orthodox Christianity, instead of posting more answers that prove your ignorance.

Generally rituals based worship is good, but it is not final. After doing such ritual based worship for some time, one shall search out for God and His divine knowledge.

You know nothing about Orthodox Christian worship. You are ignorant of its character, significance, theology, spirituality, etc. So your opinion about it is both false and meaningless.

Your brain is saturated with orthodoxity. Come out of limited thinking. Broaden your heart to love God who is universal. Fixed theoretical rituals alone cannot please God. You have to raise above orthodxity, rituals etc to please God. Division and orthodoxity displeases God. Come and advance further. Search for His divine knoweldge. Think about pleasing God through practical service to Him. Do not limit your devotion only to theory. Advance further. Give value to God's knowledge. Strive for knowledge. Human beings cannot posses divine knowledge, only God posses the divine knowledge. Christ is the God. Accept Him when He is here in human form. Listen Him. Try to be practical infront of God. Theory hold very little value infront of God....
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« Reply #1542 on: January 05, 2011, 07:10:49 AM »

Generally rituals based worship is good, but it is not final.
In what way, and to what degree, do you think the Orthodox believe our worship is final?
Theoretical worship hold very little value infront of God. I will give the clarification. There are stages in the worship of God. In the first stage, a servant is sitting and singing on the owner without doing any work. He is asking the remuneration for his song from the owner. The owner refuses remuneration because the singer has already got happiness by singing and that happiness itself is the remuneration. One cannot get two remunerations for single work even if you treat the singing as a work. In the second stage the servant is doing work and is also singing. The owner will pay for his work only but not for the song. The servant is singing while he is doing the work in order to get happiness to forget the tiredness in the work. Therefore, here also only the work is remunerated but not the song. In the third stage the servant is advised to stop singing because his energy is wasted in the song. If he works without singing all his energy can be concentrated in the work and the servant will get more remuneration. In this third stage it is only an advice but the servant is not blamed for singing. Singing is not wrong at all. But singing has no remuneration.

Similarly in the first stage people pray and express devotion without proving their love in action. In this stage the people are getting the peace and bliss by the prayers and expression of devotion. They cannot charge the Lord again for their prayers and devotion. In the second stage people participate in the mission of the Lord by sacrificing the work and the fruit of the work. While working for the Lord, they pray and sing devotional songs, which give them peace and happiness. Their prayers and songs are not wrong at all. But they will get the fruit from the Lord for their work only and not for their prayers (words) and for their devotion (mind).

In the third stage they are advised to stop the prayers and expression of devotion by practicing silence and control of mind. The reason for this is that they can store their energy, which is wasted in prayers, and devotion and which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. The energy wasted in these two channels can be diverted to the work only and more work can be done so that they can get a better fruit from the Lord. Ofcourse, they should not expect any fruit for their work. Then only the Lord is pleased and will give the real fruit. But if they concentrate all their energy in the work only, they can get a better real fruit from the Lord though they do not aspire for any fruit.

Please note that we are not finding fault with the prayers and devotion. We are only saying that you are wasting your energy in those two channels, which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. If you control those two channels, better fruit is given to you. If you need relaxation by prayers and devotion, you will be in the second stage. Therefore there is no contradiction because in the third stage it is only an advice in the light of Yoga. Yoga means concentration of the entire energy in one channel that is useful. The root word of Yoga is “Yuj”, which means to unite the dissipated streams of energy in various useless channels and concentrate the whole energy as a single stream in the useful channel.

The third stage is the highest stage. Hanuman never uttered prayers and never expressed devotional feelings on the Lord as per the Valmiki Ramayana, which is the only authority. Hanuman concentrated all His energy in the work of Lord Rama. Lord Rama also never expressed His love through words or feelings on Hanuman. He also gave silently the highest real fruit to Hanuman, which is the post of future creator (Brahma). Veda says “Yato Vacho Nivartante Apraapya Manasaasah”. This means that the words and mind cannot touch the Lord and will return back to you only. He will never hear your prayers and will never observe your expression of devotional feelings. The reason is that they are giving you the immediate fruit, which is peace, happiness and satisfaction. It is like a self-employment scheme.

Since the fruit is immediate and automatic the Lord need not pay any attention. But when you work for Him by sacrifice, you are not getting the peace, happiness and satisfaction. When you offer the sweet to the Lord you are suffering with hunger though you may feel it as happiness. But the Lord is not a sadist. He will pay His attention to you and will give you the real fruit. Therefore in this highest stage silence and control of mind are recommended by Gita also (Mounam Atma Vinigrahah).

In the second stage by prayers and devotion, you are eating the sweet. Why should the Lord pay attention for that because you are getting the enjoyment in eating the sweet? Shall He give you the cost of the sweet to you for your eating? When you give the sweet to Him without aspiring for its cost, the Lord will be pleased for your sacrifice, which alone can prove your real love on Him and then reward you with real infinite fruit at the appropriate time and place. He will delay in giving the fruit since He wants to see you whether you have sacrificed the fruit expecting something in return.

If you have sacrificed the sweet in terms of business, you will come out with your real color in the time of delay done by the Lord. The Lord is the top most genius.
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« Reply #1543 on: January 05, 2011, 07:16:32 AM »


He is the only path. Becasue the Father in heaven is invisible, and only the Son is visible here. Son of God is the one to be worshiped. Christ is the Son of God, and He comes in human form in every generation. ONly a visible GOd can fulfil your wishes of serving Him. He is 'Immanueal' meaning a God who comes to stay with us and guide us through the divine knoweldge. Our God Christ is not a dead God, He is a living GOd amidst us. A God who can speak to us, a God who can listen us, a God whom we can touch....

God does not have a different incarnation in each generation. Christ is the One. He is God, who became man, so that we could become divine. He raised the fallen nature of men, by assuming it completely, with the exception of sin. He destroyed death, trampling down death by death.

No one else can do the same, and this process is accomplished once and for all, not repeated by new incarnations in every generation. But it becomes present for every generation in the holy mysteries (sacraments) of the Church, which is Christ's body. So, your guru is surely not a new Christ, but the same Christ is present in our Eucharist. And God the Holy Spirit works in Holy Orthodoxy.


Your brain is saturated with orthodoxity. Come out of limited thinking. Broaden your heart to love God who is universal. Fixed theoretical rituals alone cannot please God. (...) Try to be practical infront of God. Theory hold very little value infront of God....
Go and experience an Orthodox liturgy. Then you will see our practice, and you will experience how it relates to our theory.
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« Reply #1544 on: January 05, 2011, 07:20:16 AM »

Gorazd;

You are imposing rules and regulations on God. You cannot limit Jesus. Jesus will come whenever He want to come. Who are you to control Him? It is His wish. If you limit Jesus to only one generation that means you are making GOD partial only to that generation. Jesus is GOd and hence He is impartial. He has to come in every generation to preach the divine knowledge.

The human incarnation comes in every generation but you are not coming in every generation. The rebirth as human being is almost impossible and completely impossible as per Christianity. In such case you are having only one chance to contact the human incarnation present in your generation. If you miss this, never again this luck comes. The next meeting with God is direct where He acts as judge. Therefore, there is no second coming of Jesus for you and you will meet God finally only.

 In this way the second coming of Jesus at the end can be understood. But if you say that you cannot meet the human incarnation in your present generation, you are not having the opportunity even for once. In such case, why a particular generation in which God came in human form as Jesus was only blessed? They had the extra fortune and this means God is partial to that generation. Therefore, every person in every generation will have the equal chance of coming in contact with the human incarnation once in his or her life and the final contact with God in the energetic form as judge.

Therefore, the impartial God comes again and again for every generation (Yada Yada hi…..Gita) but you are not having the chance to meet the human incarnation again since you have no human rebirth. One may get the human rebirth in extreme exceptional situation and you should not depend on that because it involves high risk. The human birth, the urge for salvation and coming in contact with the human incarnation are the three real fortunes and the importance increases from left to right in the order. Therefore, simply having the human birth and having the urge by taking orange robe are not sufficient.

 Unless you contact the Lord in human form and get the right knowledge for correct implementation, every thing is waste (Manushyatvam Mumukshatvam, Mahapurasha Samsrayah, Durlabham—Sankara). There is no quarrel if you say that the second coming of Jesus is only at the end because every one is having the equal chance. But if you say that I have to worship the past human incarnation only even in the present generation, then the equal opportunity is not given to Me when I am compared to the human being present in that generation in which Jesus came directly and clarified all the doubts face to face. I must have such equal privilege and here the quarrel comes with you since you deny the equal opportunity.

The second coming is final with respect to every human being but not with respect to God because in such case several human generations miss the chance of direct contact with God in human form except that one particular human generation. Even if you say that Jesus told that His second coming is only final, it is true with respect to every human being and not with respect to Him. You have misinterpreted this statement by extending it with reference to Jesus also because you want to exploit the people in the name of past Jesus and get personal fame and other facilities from the devotees. You are in no way different from the priests present in that time of Jesus.

 Both of you do not admit the human form of Lord. Both of you keep the past which is invisible (invisible Jebhova or invisible Jesus) before the devotees and earn money and fame. The only difference between you both is that that priest got Jesus killed through the court and you cannot do that in the present time. The repulsion towards the human form before eyes is common to both the priests and devotees. But in the case priests there is an extra factor that they may lose fame and offerings from the devotees because they get benefited standing at the back ground of the invisible form of God or inert form of God.

In the case of devotees, this extra factor does not exist because they are prepared to sacrifice for God and they are not losing since they do not receive. Any Guru or Priest immediately resists human form of God based on these two factors since he fears that the human form may get the fame or their offerings. Thus, there is political, economical and social issue of psychology in this spiritual line. Attraction to fame and money associated with jealously and egoism is the main back ground and Lord Datta brings out the truth that is buried up to any depth. All the details of truth are known to the omniscient God. Veda says that the knowledge of God is always based on truth (Satyam Jnamam).

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« Reply #1545 on: January 05, 2011, 07:22:33 AM »

Fixed theoretical rituals alone cannot please God.
So you believe Orthodoxy consists exclusively of fixed theoretical rituals?
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« Reply #1546 on: January 05, 2011, 07:32:22 AM »

Fixed theoretical rituals alone cannot please God.
So you believe Orthodoxy consists exclusively of fixed theoretical rituals?
God enters a medium and comes to us, known as Human incarnation. Hence God is in a 'living medium of a chosen human being (Son of God)'. God receives your service to Him through the 'living medium' only. Because it shows your practical love to Him. When you do some theoretical prayer etc then living medium in which God is present is not involved. But if you serve the God in human form in which GOd is present (identity of such God in human form is that He preaches wonderful divine knoweldge), your service is directly received by the GOd present in the living medium.

God is not present in statue or picture of any past human incarnations. God is present only in a 'live medium'. THe best live medium is the Son of God. God is present alive in Son of God. When you participate in the mission of propagation of divine knoweldge of present Son of God, the live God present in the live medium directly receives your practical service. Hence your service directly goes to God.

This also tests your devotion to God directly. In theoretical service such testing is not done. When practically you serve present Son of God, your real colour will come out. Then you have to compete with many side attractions and your bond with family to prove your real love on God, since now God is available and present infront of your eye directly!! In such case your devotion is tested directly!! In theoretical service these inconveniences are not there and you say that you love God 100%!!!!! So, when God comes in human form to you, your real love to Him is tested practically.....
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« Reply #1547 on: January 05, 2011, 07:51:56 AM »

Gorazd;

You are imposing rules and regulations on God. You cannot limit Jesus. Jesus will come whenever He want to come. Who are you to control Him? It is His wish. 
No, I am not imposing anything. I am stating what he taught, and what his body, the Orthodox Church, always taught, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

If you limit Jesus to only one generation that means you are making GOD partial only to that generation.
Particular certainly, but that is what he did by his own choice, not by my making, but not partial, because he established the church, which there for all generations.

Jesus is GOd and hence He is impartial. He has to come in every generation to preach the divine knowledge.
You are the one who is truely limiting Jesus, because you say "he has to". No, he doesnt. He is free to do whatever he wants, and everything which he did for us, was not by obligation, but because of his selfless, sacrificing love for us.

And by the way, he has entrusted preaching to specific human beings: "And the father sends me, so I send you".
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« Reply #1548 on: January 05, 2011, 07:59:29 AM »

Gorazd;

You are imposing rules and regulations on God. You cannot limit Jesus. Jesus will come whenever He want to come. Who are you to control Him? It is His wish.  
No, I am not imposing anything. I am stating what he taught, and what his body, the Orthodox Church, always taught, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

If you limit Jesus to only one generation that means you are making GOD partial only to that generation.
Particular certainly, but that is what he did by his own choice, not by my making, but not partial, because he established the church, which there for all generations.

Jesus is GOd and hence He is impartial. He has to come in every generation to preach the divine knowledge.
You are the one who is truely limiting Jesus, because you say "he has to". No, he doesnt. He is free to do whatever he wants, and everything which he did for us, was not by obligation, but because of his selfless, sacrificing love for us.

And by the way, he has entrusted preaching to specific human beings: "And the father sends me, so I send you".

A living Jesus filled Holy Spirit (Father) alone can preach us and guide us. There is a relevant necessity for Jesus to be present here. Because we are surrounded by preachers and fathers who are ignorant. God alone can preach about Himself. Hence Jesus has to be here in human form. He alone can preach about Himself. Therefore He comes in human form to guide us in the correct spiritual path to enter the kingdom of God. Theory cannot make us enter kingdom of God. Only practical service done to Jesus who is alive now in this generation alone can prove your value and love to GOd and hence make you eligible to enter kingdom of God.

Love for God is called devotion (Bhakti). Love for worldly things is called love (Prema). The basic meaning is same for both love and devotion. There are three strongest worldly chains.

1) Love between husband and wife.

2) Love for children.

3) Love for money.


These three bonds are called ‘Eshanas’. Jesus practically, competes with these three bonds in His tests when He comes to you in human form. One cannot reach even the outer gate of Lord Jesus if one fails in these three tests.
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« Reply #1549 on: January 05, 2011, 08:42:16 AM »

Fixed theoretical rituals alone cannot please God.
So you believe Orthodoxy consists exclusively of fixed theoretical rituals?
...blah, blah, blah...
Okay, let's review:
1) You use the term fixed theoretical rituals.
2) I ask a question about fixed theoretical rituals.
3) You "answer" the question (which was in fact a yes/no question, for what it's worth) with three pointless paragraphs, never using the word fixed, never using the word ritual, and using the word theoretical three times, once in describing prayer and twice in describing service.

Did I capture that accurately?
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« Reply #1550 on: January 05, 2011, 10:20:49 AM »

Fixed theoretical rituals alone cannot please God.
So you believe Orthodoxy consists exclusively of fixed theoretical rituals?
...blah, blah, blah...
Okay, let's review:
1) You use the term fixed theoretical rituals.
2) I ask a question about fixed theoretical rituals.
3) You "answer" the question (which was in fact a yes/no question, for what it's worth) with three pointless paragraphs, never using the word fixed, never using the word ritual, and using the word theoretical three times, once in describing prayer and twice in describing service.

Did I capture that accurately?

I told you serveral times, that when present human incarnation is not involved to receive your service then all such worships are theory only, either fixed or non-fixed. What is the use of theory infront of God. Past human incarnations are not here to receive your service. Only a live God can receive your service and that service should be practical service in the form of working for His mission and donating money for carrying out the propagation of divine knowledge in this world. This is known as the world 'Service'. Instead of this doing some theoretical prayer will not really help one become dear and near to God. God always see your extent of love on Him. Theoretical worship is not sufficient to prove your practical love on God.

Jesus disciples worked in the mission of Jesus. Jesus comes in every generation, from the knowledge you can identify Him. Here again after identification, you should not simply pray on the present human incarnation. Instead you should participate in the propagation of the divine knoweldge preached by Him by practically propagating the knowledge through internet etc and by donating money to print the books of divine knoweldge etc. This is known as practical service to God in human form.

Are you showing such theory on family members? are you praying on them? no. When comes to your famly, you do practical service to them by providing money, food, dress etc. , because your love to them is 'real' and when comes to God, you show all theory like prayer alone etc etc. Only practical love proved through sacrifice directly to GOd in human form alone can prove your love on God. Theory cannot please God.
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« Reply #1551 on: January 05, 2011, 10:26:06 AM »

I told you serveral times...
Yes, but I asked an extremely straightforward question, which you have yet to answer.  Will you provide an equally straightforward answer?  Do you believe Orthodoxy consists exclusively of fixed theoretical rituals?  A simple yes or no would suffice, believe it or not.
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« Reply #1552 on: January 05, 2011, 10:28:39 AM »

I told you serveral times...
Yes, but I asked an extremely straightforward question, which you have yet to answer.  Will you provide an equally straightforward answer?  Do you believe Orthodoxy consists exclusively of fixed theoretical rituals?  A simple yes or no would suffice, believe it or not.

You are deviating from the subject matter. What is the use if the service is fixed or non-fixed if it is theory!!!
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« Reply #1553 on: January 05, 2011, 10:58:50 AM »

You are deviating from the subject matter.
Oh, the irony.
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« Reply #1554 on: January 05, 2011, 11:33:59 AM »

I told you serveral times...
Yes, but I asked an extremely straightforward question, which you have yet to answer.  Will you provide an equally straightforward answer?  Do you believe Orthodoxy consists exclusively of fixed theoretical rituals?  A simple yes or no would suffice, believe it or not.

You are deviating from the subject matter. What is the use if the service is fixed or non-fixed if it is theory!!!

The Orthodox Divine Liturgy is not theory- it is a genuine experience of God. God truly meets us there and is present in human form, through his flesh and blood. That's what you fail to grasp, due to your willful ignorance. Stop commenting on matters you know nothing about.
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« Reply #1555 on: January 05, 2011, 03:17:37 PM »

Summarizing thread:

I claim to believe in Jesus, and affirm that He is God, but then I'm going to directly contradict Him by claiming to be the God-man myself and accuse anyone who objects of being obtuse.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #1556 on: January 05, 2011, 03:27:01 PM »

Summarizing thread:  I claim to believe in Jesus, and affirm that He is God, but then I'm going to directly contradict Him by claiming to be the God-man myself and accuse anyone who objects of being obtuse.
Hey, who brought geometry into this?
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« Reply #1557 on: January 05, 2011, 03:29:16 PM »

Oh, and you forgot the terms blather and aimless.  Other than that, nice summation!
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« Reply #1558 on: January 05, 2011, 09:55:46 PM »

You are deviating from the subject matter.
Oh, the irony.
Venu is getting very impatient with you!  The more impatient, the more exclamation points!!  Now, stop it!!!  Grin
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« Reply #1559 on: January 05, 2011, 10:08:07 PM »

I told you serveral times...
Yes, but I asked an extremely straightforward question, which you have yet to answer.  Will you provide an equally straightforward answer?  Do you believe Orthodoxy consists exclusively of fixed theoretical rituals?  A simple yes or no would suffice, believe it or not.

You are deviating from the subject matter. What is the use if the service is fixed or non-fixed if it is theory!!!



The Orthodox Divine Liturgy is not theory- it is a genuine experience of God. God truly meets us there and is present in human form, through his flesh and blood. That's what you fail to grasp, due to your willful ignorance. Stop commenting on matters you know nothing about.

God enters only a living medium. Not in statue or any other inert object or liquid or solid food objects. God enters a living medium so that He can interact with His devotees through the divine knowledge and devotees can experience God through the living medium. One can touch, see, talk and co-live with a living human medium in which God is present. God will never enter the inert medium in which life is not there.

The purpose of GOd entering in a living medium is to preach divine knowledge. The sacred objects you use in liturgy do not contain God. If they contain God then they should speak divine knowledge. Divine knowledge is the identity mark of GOd present in a medium. If the sacred objects used for your liturgy begin talking divine knowledge then tension and anxiety will be created in the minds of the devotees then due to fear and excitement they will not listen the divine knoweldge. Hence God will never enter inert object how sacred they may be. At the same time GOd enters a devoted servant of God, known as 'Son of God'. Where God lives is a pious place. Son of God is pious since GOd exists in Him. God exists in a living medium which is a human being for a reason of free interaction of devotees to Him.

If GOD exists in sacred items used in the liturgy then those items should speak divine knoweldge, which is not the case in reality. This means that God do not exists in them. God never enter inert objects. God enter only a living medium which is a human being who is extremly devoted to God known as Son of God.

But for a theoretical devotion you can assume that God is present in litury sacred items, even though it is not a truth.....
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« Reply #1560 on: January 05, 2011, 10:09:33 PM »

So you are denying the Eucharist, which Christ Himself gave us?
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« Reply #1561 on: January 05, 2011, 10:14:01 PM »

So you are denying the Eucharist, which Christ Himself gave us?

Eucharist is the present 'Human incarnation'. To understand this concept, you can rever 'Eucharist' used in the theorectical worship. Theory should lead to practice quickly. The real Eucharist is the present human incarnation, because a living GOd alone can give you the required divine knowledge for your practice to bring you up to Him in the right direction. The liturgical Eucharist is definetly ignite theoretical devotion in your mind. After getting ignited with such theoretical devotion on God, one should search for the living Eucharist in the present generation so that you can now start practical devotion to God by serving the living 'Eucharist' in your generation.

Can you purchase a diamond with one cent? No. Like wise you can never please God by your theoretical devotion alone... Practical devotion alone will prove your value for God....Be a practical devotee...
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« Reply #1562 on: January 05, 2011, 10:14:35 PM »

IOW, yes. Wink
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« Reply #1563 on: January 05, 2011, 10:37:01 PM »

IOW, yes. Wink

You should firmly believe that Jesus is present in Eucharist in liturgy, so that your love theoretical on God will be high. After some time when you theoretical love get matured, you should start looking for the Eucharist of the present generation for practical service to Him.
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« Reply #1564 on: January 05, 2011, 11:01:16 PM »

What you seem to be failing to grasp is that we Christians believe that Jesus is STILL existing as a human being in the SAME Body.  He has died amd resurrected.
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« Reply #1565 on: January 06, 2011, 12:21:30 AM »

This reminds me of one of those awful Friday the 13th movies where just when you think he's dead, BOOM, he's back....
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« Reply #1566 on: January 06, 2011, 12:27:36 AM »

This reminds me of one of those awful Friday the 13th movies where just when you think he's dead, BOOM, he's back....
You should watch "The Green Mile".
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« Reply #1567 on: January 06, 2011, 03:13:44 AM »

What you seem to be failing to grasp is that we Christians believe that Jesus is STILL existing as a human being in the SAME Body.  He has died amd resurrected.

If Jesus is existing in the same body, then that body should be visible to us now. For ignornant devotees such preachings are done to keep them in atleast devotion level so that these devotee will not become atheists. So such stories are needed. In the upper world, God exists in energetic bodies not in human bodies! Jesus do not exists in same human body!! Only energetic bodies exists in the upper world!!

Human body of Jesus if still exists now also, then it should be visible to us here on this very earth.

Jesus is not a fool. Jesus comes in different human bodies in every generation!!

He is here in the present generation with a new body!!!

You have not seen Jesus when HE came 2000 yrs ago. So what sort of body shape He has assumed is not known. It is only an artists imagination that He has come with beard etc etc.

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« Reply #1568 on: January 06, 2011, 04:03:57 AM »

What you seem to be failing to grasp is that we Christians believe that Jesus is STILL existing as a human being in the SAME Body.  He has died amd resurrected.
Stories are needed for general public who have only very little devotion on God. Only by such stories they think that God has the divinity. Hence such stories are introduced to them to keep them in the level of devotion so that they will not further slip down in to atheism.

God is identified from His divine knowledge not from another other aspects like whether He has been taken into heaven with body or without body etc....
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« Reply #1569 on: January 06, 2011, 04:21:19 AM »

What you seem to be failing to grasp...
Jesus comes in different human bodies in every generation!!
He is here in the present generation with a new body!!!
Are you the only current incarnation?  Or are there multiple incarnations in some generations?
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« Reply #1570 on: January 06, 2011, 06:31:52 AM »

What you seem to be failing to grasp...
Jesus comes in different human bodies in every generation!!
He is here in the present generation with a new body!!!
Are you the only current incarnation?  Or are there multiple incarnations in some generations?
Incarnation is identified from His divine knowledge. That you yourself has to do, by analysing the divine knowledge preached by the God in human form.

He comes in every generation. He is always present in this world itself. Every generation is blessed by His presence. There is no question of time gap or interval between His incarnations.

 If interval is given, some generation may miss. God is in this world only. God is here and He is in human form. Only thing that varies is the expression of His potency from one form to the other form. One Prefossor acts as a Professor in a university, another Professor acting as a leturer in college and another Professor acting as a teacher in school. All the three are Professors only. But, you say this is full incarnation, this is partial incarnation and this is a lesser incarnation etc., by the expression of the potency.

Even though He is a Professor, He is called as a teacher since He teaches in a school. Even though He is a Professor, He is called as a lecturer since He teaches in a college. He is called as Professor when He teaches in the university. So, it a question of expression of varying potencies.

 It is not the question of inability of expression but it depends on the level of the surrounding devotees or receivers. When devotees are in trouble, somebody comes for helping them. Who has helped them? It is God. God’s help has come thorugh that human form that approached that devotee. As soon as the work is over, He quits that person. Is He not human incarnation? God is unlimited. He can come at anytime He likes so. He is unimaginable. When you deserve some help, God helps you. God only helps you through some medium.

At human level, you fix some guru and he is the professor for you. Some students, who are in college, call his teacher as lecturer but he is Professor actually. Basically, He is a professor even though he takes the classes for college students. Therefore, at every level, the preachers are God only. So, it depends on the expression of the potency according to the requirement. You have to fix yourself to that level and need not worry about whether He is a Professor or not etc. He may be a lecturer and you belong to a college level but you should treat him as a Professor.

 God sends him only, unites with Him and does the work. So, you need not have some gradation. Gradation is in the devotee. Gradation is not in the preacher. Gradation is not in Gurus. Suppose, a servant of God has come to preach the lower level devotees. The requirement is only to express the potency to the lower level. God expressed it through that medium and made that medium as human incarnation in a fraction of second. Therefore, you have to see the problems from the side of the devotee.

You need not see the problems from the side of God. You need not analyse His work and His mechanism. You need not give gradation to His side. All the gradations and all the problems lay with the devotees only. You must rise from college to university.

You need not bother about whether your teacher is a lecturer or Professor etc. If there is a requirement and your level is higher definitely, the lecturer will come to you. Therefore, you need not bother about God’s misson or work. You have to bother about your development. God is ready to help you and especially in spiritual direction. You will get a guru, who suit to your level. If you deserve, the teacher will come to the class. Your duty is to sit in the classroom. It is the administration and botheration of God to send the preacher of your level.
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« Reply #1571 on: January 06, 2011, 06:36:55 AM »

What you seem to be failing to grasp is that we Christians believe that Jesus is STILL existing as a human being in the SAME Body.  He has died amd resurrected.


He comes in every generation in human form. For this, you can have authority from Jesus Himself. He said ‘I will come again’. In the Gita, it is told that I will come through Human form whenever there is requirement. Both the scriptures are to be correlated. He comes in human form in every generation. He comes only at the end of the destruction of the world, then it is non-sense.

I will come again. You have come to My house, you will say ‘OK Swami, I will meet You again’. What does it mean? This means that you will come to My house again and again. Whenever there is requirement, you will come.  Whenever there is a wish, you will come. Whenever You call Me I will come. I will come again means, God will come in the next generation again. Otherwise, the partiality will come. If He blesses only one generation, the other generation is not blessed, He becomes partial.

Such meaning only can correlate with the Gita. Then only it can be correlated with justified logic. One generation alone should not be blessed but every generation should be blessed. You have to correlate from all the angles. Even if you take the Bible alone, it does not justify the logic that God is impartial. One should face this logic. Your scripture in itself should face common sense and logic. How it can answer the logical question that God will have partiality if He does not come again and again in every generation?
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« Reply #1572 on: January 06, 2011, 07:12:11 PM »

You are NOT God in human form, dattaspammi.  I feel 100% confident in making that statement.

You. Are. NOT. God!
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« Reply #1573 on: January 06, 2011, 10:28:16 PM »

You are NOT God in human form, dattaspammi.  I feel 100% confident in making that statement.

You. Are. NOT. God!

 When God comes in the human form, that itself starts illusion in your mind. You will mistake the Lord as an ordinary co-human being since you are affected by the common properties of the external human medium. The birth, growth, illness, thirst, hunger, other qualities like worldly desires and final death confuse you to recognize the Lord.

 You must separate the inner permanent soul from the external human body since all the above mentioned properties do not touch the soul. Therefore, the Lord started Gita with such separation in the second chapter, which is the beginning of Gita.

 If you are able to separate the soul and body, you will be easily separating the super soul or God from the body in the human incarnation. At the same time, you should separate the soul and God also so that you will not mistake the soul existing in every human body as God.
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« Reply #1574 on: January 06, 2011, 10:31:28 PM »

You are NOT God in human form, dattaspammi.  I feel 100% confident in making that statement.

You. Are. NOT. God!

In Christianity Jesus is called as Emmanuel, which means that God comes down from heaven to live with us. Only a human form can live with us and guide us through knowledge. The Popes at that time also did not believe Jesus as God or atleast as Son of God or even as messenger of the God. They did not like the God to be introduced in human being as you say now. They believed only the dead messengers and not Jesus, who was the then messenger. The same logic applies today also. You believe the messenger who does not exist now. You do not believe the messenger who now exists before your eyes. Jesus told that He would come again. It means that the same human incarnation will come again and the same story repeats. The same Jesus is present today and the same people who were blind with egoism and jealousy are present again today. Therefore, I say, the history repeats.

As Jesus was insulted, then, today also the egoistic and jealous people will insult Jesus. Jesus will come in every human generation to give His direct contact. Otherwise, God Jesus becomes partial, because He gave direct contact to one generation only and not to the other generations. He clarified the doubts of one generation only through His direct voice and now He allows the immature human devotees to answer the doubts directly in the other human generations. He provided the fortune of touching His feet in one generation only and other generations are deprived of that fortune. This makes Jesus totally partial and you say that God is impartial. All the religions also say the same. How can you justify this important statement that God is impartial? Therefore, we have accepted that God is coming in human form like Jesus in every human generation. To avoid answer to this, you are saying that reasoning should be avoided. When reasoning is discarded, you need not answer any question. Whatever you say that must be the truth. You are rigid without any logic and this is the blind conservatism. This cancer is present in every religion and humanity is always is divided by this cancer. You are opposing the unity of humanity and want to disturb the world peace. God will not tolerate you, and you will be thrown in to permanent hell for misleading the ignorant people.

If you see Bible, Jesus gives reason everywhere in His concepts. For every statement He gives the reason. When the priests asked Him that He should not have saved the animal, which has fallen in the pit on the festival day, He gave the reason for His effort to save that animal. He analyzed the Old Testament and gave logical interpretations. He did not mind to cut some irrational blind statements present in the Old Testament, by giving rational modifications. He has fulfilled His duty to be the true guide of the humanity. Whenever He leaves the world these rigid people twist and pollute the meanings of scriptures. To rectify He comes again and again. When the teacher leaves for a few minutes the class becomes undisciplined. The teacher comes to the class again and again. For teaching, the human form is essential.

A statue cannot teach you. If you think Him formless, He is not speaking to you from the sky or space or air. The human body is most convenient medium for the human beings to hear preaching of the God. The main goal of God is to preach the human beings and correct them to put in the right spiritual path. For beginners, He does some miracles as signs for His presence in the human body. The realized souls will detect Him even without those signs. Sheep see the shepherd and come near by recognizing him with eyes. Some milder sheep come near by hearing his voice, which is a miracle. The mildest sheep try to go away and are punished by the stick of shepherd, which is nothing but permanent hell.

Therefore, if you keep Jesus in the place of the present human incarnation and place the same blind priests in the place of present blind followers, you can understand the truth because the same story and the same cinema is repeated with different actors having different names. This is the best way of understanding the truth. Those priests also opposed Jesus, when He argued with wonderful reason. The duty of the teacher finishes by teaching clearly to the class. It is up to the student to grasp it and pass or twist it and fail following the sweet emotional advises of bad blind friends. The Lord is not worried about the percentage of pass because there is no fault in His teaching. He should not be blamed for the pass or failure of the students. A student himself is to be blamed.

When the messenger comes to the earth, he delivers his duty so that the God is pleased with him in the upper world. He is not bothered about the fame in this world or the number of followers. God will not find fault with the messenger if the human beings did not pass. He finds fault with the messenger if the message is not properly delivered. Jesus never bothered about propagation of His knowledge. His aim was only to sit on the right side of His pleased Father after doing the duty assigned by Him. He never cared even if the people rejected, insulted and even crucified Him. His aim was God but not the world.

In Christianity Jesus is called as Emmanuel, which means that God comes down from heaven to live with us. Only a human form can live with us and guide us through knowledge. The Popes at that time also did not believe Jesus as God or atleast as Son of God or even as messenger of the God. They did not like the God to be introduced in human being as you say now. They believed only the dead messengers and not Jesus, who was the then messenger. The same logic applies today also. You believe the messenger who does not exist now. You do not believe the messenger who now exists before your eyes. Jesus told that He would come again. It means that the same human incarnation will come again and the same story repeats. The same Jesus is present today and the same people who were blind with egoism and jealousy are present again today. Therefore, I say, the history repeats.

As Jesus was insulted, then, today also the egoistic and jealous people will insult Jesus. Jesus will come in every human generation to give His direct contact. Otherwise, God Jesus becomes partial, because He gave direct contact to one generation only and not to the other generations. He clarified the doubts of one generation only through His direct voice and now He allows the immature human devotees to answer the doubts directly in the other human generations. He provided the fortune of touching His feet in one generation only and other generations are deprived of that fortune. This makes Jesus totally partial and you say that God is impartial. All the religions also say the same. How can you justify this important statement that God is impartial? Therefore, we have accepted that God is coming in human form like Jesus in every human generation. To avoid answer to this, you are saying that reasoning should be avoided. When reasoning is discarded, you need not answer any question. Whatever you say that must be the truth. You are rigid without any logic and this is the blind conservatism. This cancer is present in every religion and humanity is always is divided by this cancer. You are opposing the unity of humanity and want to disturb the world peace. God will not tolerate you, and you will be thrown in to permanent hell for misleading the ignorant people.

If you see Bible, Jesus gives reason everywhere in His concepts. For every statement He gives the reason. When the priests asked Him that He should not have saved the animal, which has fallen in the pit on the festival day, He gave the reason for His effort to save that animal. He analyzed the Old Testament and gave logical interpretations. He did not mind to cut some irrational blind statements present in the Old Testament, by giving rational modifications. He has fulfilled His duty to be the true guide of the humanity. Whenever He leaves the world these rigid people twist and pollute the meanings of scriptures. To rectify He comes again and again. When the teacher leaves for a few minutes the class becomes undisciplined. The teacher comes to the class again and again. For teaching, the human form is essential.

A statue cannot teach you. If you think Him formless, He is not speaking to you from the sky or space or air. The human body is most convenient medium for the human beings to hear preaching of the God. The main goal of God is to preach the human beings and correct them to put in the right spiritual path. For beginners, He does some miracles as signs for His presence in the human body. The realized souls will detect Him even without those signs. Sheep see the shepherd and come near by recognizing him with eyes. Some milder sheep come near by hearing his voice, which is a miracle. The mildest sheep try to go away and are punished by the stick of shepherd, which is nothing but permanent hell.

Therefore, if you keep Jesus in the place of the present human incarnation and place the same blind priests in the place of present blind followers, you can understand the truth because the same story and the same cinema is repeated with different actors having different names. This is the best way of understanding the truth. Those priests also opposed Jesus, when He argued with wonderful reason. The duty of the teacher finishes by teaching clearly to the class. It is up to the student to grasp it and pass or twist it and fail following the sweet emotional advises of bad blind friends. The Lord is not worried about the percentage of pass because there is no fault in His teaching. He should not be blamed for the pass or failure of the students. A student himself is to be blamed.

When the messenger comes to the earth, he delivers his duty so that the God is pleased with him in the upper world. He is not bothered about the fame in this world or the number of followers. God will not find fault with the messenger if the human beings did not pass. He finds fault with the messenger if the message is not properly delivered. Jesus never bothered about propagation of His knowledge. His aim was only to sit on the right side of His pleased Father after doing the duty assigned by Him. He never cared even if the people rejected, insulted and even crucified Him. His aim was God but not the world.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/0db8a6ba-102a-4380-9230-7b6e8345291e/divine-knowledge
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