Author Topic: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland  (Read 1327 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,219
  • Son of a Preacher Man
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox OCA
Egyptian papyrus found in ancient Irish bog

DUBLIN: Irish scientists have found fragments of Egyptian papyrus in the leather cover of an ancient book of psalms that was unearthed from a peat bog, Ireland's National Museum said on Monday.

The papyrus in the lining of the Egyptian-style leather cover of the 1,200-year-old manuscript, "potentially represents the first tangible connection between early Irish Christianity and the Middle Eastern Coptic Church", the Museum said.

"It is a finding that asks many questions and has confounded some of the accepted theories about the history of early Christianity in Ireland."

http://www.thedailynewsegypt.com/index.php/Culture/Archaeology/egyptian-papyrus-found-in-ancient-irish-bog.html
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2010, 05:09:00 AM »
And a peat bog...of all the places!  :D

Offline tuesdayschild

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,000
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2010, 09:57:59 AM »


The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs
The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism
by Father Gregory Telepneff

http://www.ctosonline.org/historical/ED.html

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,774
  • Excelsior
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2010, 12:15:58 PM »
Glory to God.    :angel:
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,924
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2010, 01:06:42 PM »
Would the Egyptian Church have used Latin?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Father Peter

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,984
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2010, 05:49:26 PM »
The binding came from Egypt and was reused, the content was Western.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,924
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 11:03:20 AM »


The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs
The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism
by Father Gregory Telepneff

http://www.ctosonline.org/historical/ED.html

I haven't read this book, but based on the excerpts I've seen, it seems like a lot of dodgy scholarship and wishful thinking is involved. And the author can't help taking a jab at "the so-called Coptic Orthodox Church, a heretical body of Christians which has been cut off from Eastern Orthodox Christianity for many centuries." It's annoying that, to learn anything substantive about Celtic monasticism, one has to wade through so much fantasizing and nonsense.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,546
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 05:44:20 PM »


The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs
The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism
by Father Gregory Telepneff

http://www.ctosonline.org/historical/ED.html

I haven't read this book, but based on the excerpts I've seen, it seems like a lot of dodgy scholarship and wishful thinking is involved. And the author can't help taking a jab at "the so-called Coptic Orthodox Church, a heretical body of Christians which has been cut off from Eastern Orthodox Christianity for many centuries." It's annoying that, to learn anything substantive about Celtic monasticism, one has to wade through so much fantasizing and nonsense.

Yeah, and the whole unfounded "Eastern theology and praxis in England until 1066" hypothesis.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 05:44:47 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Pope Francis
Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,206
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 07:37:35 PM »


The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs
The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism
by Father Gregory Telepneff

http://www.ctosonline.org/historical/ED.html

I haven't read this book, but based on the excerpts I've seen, it seems like a lot of dodgy scholarship and wishful thinking is involved. And the author can't help taking a jab at "the so-called Coptic Orthodox Church, a heretical body of Christians which has been cut off from Eastern Orthodox Christianity for many centuries." It's annoying that, to learn anything substantive about Celtic monasticism, one has to wade through so much fantasizing and nonsense.

+1

I avoid even looking.  My view is that information concerning the Celtic church, or the pre-Anglo British church from which "Brito" (what St. Augustine called Pelagius) beyond what we have in our hagiographies and extant ancient writings is most likely lost.  There is very little information available from reputable sources concerning the Celtic church because such information is simply unavailable, so what happens is people, from these little bits and pieces , like to imagine some sort of virtuous Celtic Orthodox Church suppressed by the evil Frankish Popes, the author of the book you cite even going so far as to presume the Irish church, and by extension, ancient Egyptian monasticism, to have a Byzantine rather than a Coptic character (despite the fact that St. Anthony was a Coptic speaker, as were a very large number of the desert fathere, with recognizably Egyptian names).

Celtic Christianity is a rabit hole. People who try to practice some kind of Celtic Christianity are destined to spiritual delusion, because its simply too far gone into the depths of history to reconstruct with any accuracy.   

I am sure we will learn more about the Celtic church, and we will probably like what we learn, but, the Celtic church is dead.

I would really like to know how the Christians of North Africa in the sees of Carthage, Hippo and in Numidia and Libya worshipped, but the amount of information that survives is fragmentary, to non-existant (for instance, we can guess at the lectionary used in Hippo from the preserved homilies of St. Augustine, but their vestments, their liturgical rite, the specifics of their daily prayer, or how they celebrated weddings, all of this cultural heritage has been lost to us due to Islam).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,206
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 07:44:27 PM »


The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs
The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism
by Father Gregory Telepneff

http://www.ctosonline.org/historical/ED.html

I haven't read this book, but based on the excerpts I've seen, it seems like a lot of dodgy scholarship and wishful thinking is involved. And the author can't help taking a jab at "the so-called Coptic Orthodox Church, a heretical body of Christians which has been cut off from Eastern Orthodox Christianity for many centuries." It's annoying that, to learn anything substantive about Celtic monasticism, one has to wade through so much fantasizing and nonsense.

Yeah, and the whole unfounded "Eastern theology and praxis in England until 1066" hypothesis.

Much of the "evidence" for that boils down to hairstyles.  Saxons had long hair and beards, ergo they must have been Orthodox.

This is of course a fabulous non-sequitur and does not explain the lack of Orthodoxy in other lands under Saxon dominion, for example, Saxony.  You'd expect to see a band of Orthodoxy stretching across Germany from Moravia, which was at the time Orthodox, into Denmark, Frisia and the Netherlands, and reconverging in England, but there is no trace of such a Byzantine Belt existing; everything points to Latin liturgical influence straight up into Scandinavia in that timeframe (apparently the pro-Byzantine Swedish vikings settled in the Byzantine Empire and in Kievan Rus and the surrounding lands, as opposed to returning and Byzantinizing Scandinavia).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 07:45:49 PM »
I do however see great value in demonstrating or discussing how Christians were in touch with those in other land back then, how Christians had local church tradition and so on, as it paints a picture of hope and brotherhood to the glory of God, and can strengthen in faith those from Celtic (and Germanic) background
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2017, 07:47:39 PM »
"Long hair and beards" on priests dates to the pagan era, even to the Indio-European migrations, so that's a weak thesis.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,175
Re: An Important Finding in an Irish Bog- The Early Church and Ireland
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2017, 11:15:19 AM »
"The Celtic Church in Britain" by Hardinge was good, although with a thick Protestant viewpoint. He points to Egyptian influence.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth